freespirit Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Having caught someone I know in a lie recently, I am wondering your views on honesty since becoming an X. Do you still have the same views about honesty as when you were a Christian? Do you think there is ever a valid reason to lie? I guess I would lie in some instances, like if someone with a gun to my head asked me where my daughter was. Even biblical characters lied sometimes. Would you ever lie? Would you lie to friends? Loved ones? Co-workers? What would you lie about? When would you feel a lie to you was unacceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I lie to spare the feelings of others and when honesty makes me look worse than I want to look. Examples include how many beers I had last night before driving home, whether or not these shorts make my wife's ass look big, do I ever wish I had remained single, etc. Sometimes a lie makes things less complicated. When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. That's great. Did you pen that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I lie to spare the feelings of others and when honesty makes me look worse than I want to look. Examples include how many beers I had last night before driving home, whether or not these shorts make my wife's ass look big, do I ever wish I had remained single, etc. Sometimes a lie makes things less complicated. When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. But if you get caught lying, doesn't that make things much more complicated? Doesn't lying about some of those things just make you suspect? For example saying you never ever wished you'd remained single. Don't we all have those feelings sometimes? Why can't you just say so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Well, I'm not really a CIA operative and I don't own a Summer home in the Hamptons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Well, I not really a CIA operative and I don't own a Summer home in the Hamptons... Ya, me neither. Boy, won't my co-workers be surprised when they find out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akatheist Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I lie to spare the feelings of others and when honesty makes me look worse than I want to look. Examples include how many beers I had last night before driving home, whether or not these shorts make my wife's ass look big, do I ever wish I had remained single, etc. Sometimes a lie makes things less complicated. When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. But if you get caught lying, doesn't that make things much more complicated? Doesn't lying about some of those things just make you suspect? For example saying you never ever wished you'd remained single. Don't we all have those feelings sometimes? Why can't you just say so? I think it's purely situational and also somewhat of a personal morality issue. The things you may lie about won't necessarily be the things I'm willing to lie about. I think this is really the core of being an X. Fundies claim all lies are equal and equally terrible. But we have this freedom of choice of what we're willing to lie about. We simply have to live with any potential repercussions of those lies, be they harmless (someone had 3 beers instead of 2 before walking home) or terrible (say, another family in another city where they frequently go for "business trips"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I won't tell yours if you don't tell mine, Freespirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I won't tell yours if you don't tell mine, Freespirit. It's a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I lie to spare the feelings of others and when honesty makes me look worse than I want to look. Examples include how many beers I had last night before driving home, whether or not these shorts make my wife's ass look big, do I ever wish I had remained single, etc. Sometimes a lie makes things less complicated. When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. But if you get caught lying, doesn't that make things much more complicated? Doesn't lying about some of those things just make you suspect? For example saying you never ever wished you'd remained single. Don't we all have those feelings sometimes? Why can't you just say so? My lies tend to fall into the unverifiable category, so getting caught is not a problem. For instance, I don't lie about where I've been, who I've seen, or what I've been up to. I don't cheat on my wife or have a secret life, so those sorts of lies are unnecessary. As for the Do you ever wish you had remained single question, it calls for a yes or no response, and my honest response is more complicated than that. It's basically along the lines of "Yes, because then I could have a variety of sex partners and I wouldn't have to put up with your annoying traits and I could do whatever I want, but overall I like our life together very much and I love you and the kids and I would not trade for what's behind Curtain Number Two so can we skip the fight and go straight to the make-up sex?" So "no" is simpler for me, and there is my inner Thoreau that constantly exhorts me to "simplify, simplify." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. That's great. Did you pen that? Yes. I'm sure it is the subconscious influence of Oscar Wilde, from whose lips this sort of folk wisdom fell like leaves in autumn. I read The Picture of Dorian Gray last week, and it drips with aphorisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyString Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I feel the same way about it as I did when I was a Christian. Now, I just don't feel as guilty about the little lies. It's just not realistic to be honest ALL the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 When I was a member of the church, lying did not seem to be a deterrent to anyone, especially when it came to spiritual events in their lives. I get more angry with my kid when he lies to me because if I knew what was going on, I could help him stay out of trouble. I don't like my family lying to me. I get enough of that from strangers and the federal govt.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I lie to spare the feelings of others and when honesty makes me look worse than I want to look. Examples include how many beers I had last night before driving home, whether or not these shorts make my wife's ass look big, do I ever wish I had remained single, etc. Sometimes a lie makes things less complicated. When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. But if you get caught lying, doesn't that make things much more complicated? Doesn't lying about some of those things just make you suspect? For example saying you never ever wished you'd remained single. Don't we all have those feelings sometimes? Why can't you just say so? My lies tend to fall into the unverifiable category, so getting caught is not a problem. For instance, I don't lie about where I've been, who I've seen, or what I've been up to. I don't cheat on my wife or have a secret life, so those sorts of lies are unnecessary. As for the Do you ever wish you had remained single question, it calls for a yes or no response, and my honest response is more complicated than that. It's basically along the lines of "Yes, because then I could have a variety of sex partners and I wouldn't have to put up with your annoying traits and I could do whatever I want, but overall I like our life together very much and I love you and the kids and I would not trade for what's behind Curtain Number Two so can we skip the fight and go straight to the make-up sex?" So "no" is simpler for me, and there is my inner Thoreau that constantly exhorts me to "simplify, simplify." Sheesh. I think you can tell the truth and not lay all that out too, ya know? How about,"well, sometimes I think the single life might be nice but then I think of how much I love you and I wouldn't trade you and the kids in for anything"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I feel the same way about it as I did when I was a Christian. Now, I just don't feel as guilty about the little lies. It's just not realistic to be honest ALL the time. Yeah, I feel pretty much the same way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I lie to spare the feelings of others and when honesty makes me look worse than I want to look. Examples include how many beers I had last night before driving home, whether or not these shorts make my wife's ass look big, do I ever wish I had remained single, etc. Sometimes a lie makes things less complicated. When one's lies make things more complicated, one is abusing the tactic. But if you get caught lying, doesn't that make things much more complicated? Doesn't lying about some of those things just make you suspect? For example saying you never ever wished you'd remained single. Don't we all have those feelings sometimes? Why can't you just say so? My lies tend to fall into the unverifiable category, so getting caught is not a problem. For instance, I don't lie about where I've been, who I've seen, or what I've been up to. I don't cheat on my wife or have a secret life, so those sorts of lies are unnecessary. As for the Do you ever wish you had remained single question, it calls for a yes or no response, and my honest response is more complicated than that. It's basically along the lines of "Yes, because then I could have a variety of sex partners and I wouldn't have to put up with your annoying traits and I could do whatever I want, but overall I like our life together very much and I love you and the kids and I would not trade for what's behind Curtain Number Two so can we skip the fight and go straight to the make-up sex?" So "no" is simpler for me, and there is my inner Thoreau that constantly exhorts me to "simplify, simplify." Sheesh. I think you can tell the truth and not lay all that out too, ya know? How about,"well, sometimes I think the single life might be nice but then I think of how much I love you and I wouldn't trade you and the kids in for anything"! Hey, that is good! If I could consistently pull that off, I would rarely have to lie at all. Unfortunately, I have a heavy hand on the truth spigot, and when I open it you wouldn't believe how much honesty gushes forth. Therefore, I have to try to be moderate with the truth, as, indeed, I try to be moderate in all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I lie out of fear and desperation. I got into the habit of lying to myself as a christian, then lying to my parents as I tried to get more freedom, and had low enough self esteem I lied (in small ways, usually) to my friends because I didn't think anyone could love me if I was honest about myself. It became a habit that when people would ask me anything I'd tell them what I thought they wanted to hear instead of what I actually thought. For a while, I couldn't tell when I was lying and when I wasn't because my view of reality shifted every time I was around someone else, trying to find some way of being that would get me approval, love, safety. Eventually, mostly due to some good friends who I could be honest with without them hating me, and them getting annoyed when I wouldn't express opinions, I started to realize that lying to someone prevents me having a good relationship with them. So around my friends, I had to make a conscious effort to be more honest, even when it wasn't what I thought they wanted to hear. That's gone fairly well with my closest friends. With people I'm not as close to, particularly with my parents who have no lives of their own and want to hear all the details of my life so they can live vicariously though me, I tend to lie by omission. I've been trying to just be grumpy and non-talkative so they won't ask questions I don't feel like answering so that I don't end up in that situation so often, but that doesn't always work. I often run into the problem where there's something I want to do that I know my parents would disapprove of. I'm an adult living at home, and having a horrible time with that. I need to move out, but... it won't go well. I really don't want to deal with the fight and disapproval and their "concern" for me making "irresponsible" choices they don't agree with. But anyway, until I get past that and just move out, I'm stuck with them noticing every time I go anywhere and being curious about it. There's a few things I know would be drama, like *gasp* going camping overnight with friends, some of whom happen to be the opposite gender! Or hanging out with gay people. Since I don't want to lie too much, I just don't go camping, or at least won't until I get a few female friends together so I can just not mention the males. When I hang out with people they wouldn't like, I either lie to them about what group I'm with, or, if possible, mention some individuals' names that wouldn't freak them out. It's quite unsatisfying. But being honest about that would mean coming out about things that I'm not ready to deal with yet. Particularly not while living at home. So step one is getting up the nerve to move out. Then I'll still be leaving out important aspects of my life when I talk to them, but at least it won't be as direct of lies. I'm still not sure whether I'll ever be totally honest with my parents. They're a confusing mix of good intentioned people trying their best and dysfunctional assholes. I'm not sure I trust them enough to value our relationship enough to want that level of honesty with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I am obsessed with telling the truth, so I don't lie. I have never seen the point of it. I didn't realise how obsessed I was until I got myself into a situation that, if it had been misinterpreted, could have landed me in jail but I still didn't lie about it. I don't lie to spare the feelings of others, I just learnt how to shut up when I need to. Or, one of my favourites is "if you don't know whether your ass looks fat in that without my help go see an optometrist". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I'm still not sure whether I'll ever be totally honest with my parents. They're a confusing mix of good intentioned people trying their best and dysfunctional assholes. I'm not sure I trust them enough to value our relationship enough to want that level of honesty with them. I completely relate to this in so many ways. I have an awful time with my parents now, because I see that they have good intentions and I really love them. They gave me everything growing up - every advantage including a college education. But I just hate their beliefs and political views, and I hate how they made me submit to them when I was a child. It is really tough even 1,200 miles away from them. I cannot imagine having to live around them 24/7. Something would have to give. I don't like their lifestyle, I don't like their religion, I don't like their right wing Republican politics and i don't like their complete lack of taste! Ugh. I guess I sound pretty superior but its the truth. I cannot be completely honest with them. I know they don't understand me anyway. What's the use?? I am so liberal, I am so not a Christian. What can I do? I had a visit from them over Memorial Day weekend and am still recovering. I have done some crazy stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I have heard there's a few people you don't lie to, namely your doctor, your wife, or your lawyer. To which I may add, you don't lie to your Bridge partner about the strength of your hand lest you end up as Declarer trying to make a horrible contract. At least one man has been shot for failing to make such a contract, and serve him right! But seriously, if you don't want to have to lie, best to try as much as you can not to get into situations where you might have to lie. Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaToOmega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Never lie to your wife. That's the rule. No iff's but's or anyting else...except the following: 1) If she asks how these clothes make her look. 2) If she asks how she look's 3) If she asks anything about her body that you think she may possibly in some Universe take offence to even though you mean it as a compliment. 4) If she asks what you think of her paint choice for the lounge...kitchen...etc 5) If she asks do you find other women hot. 6) you get the idea... Never ever lie to your husband. That's also the rule...except... 1) If he asks if you had an orgasm. 2) See (1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 I am obsessed with telling the truth, so I don't lie. I have never seen the point of it. I didn't realise how obsessed I was until I got myself into a situation that, if it had been misinterpreted, could have landed me in jail but I still didn't lie about it. I don't lie to spare the feelings of others, I just learnt how to shut up when I need to. Or, one of my favourites is "if you don't know whether your ass looks fat in that without my help go see an optometrist". Yeah, I'm pretty truthful that way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Never lie to your wife. That's the rule. No iff's but's or anyting else...except the following: 1) If she asks how these clothes make her look. 2) If she asks how she look's 3) If she asks anything about her body that you think she may possibly in some Universe take offence to even though you mean it as a compliment. 4) If she asks what you think of her paint choice for the lounge...kitchen...etc 5) If she asks do you find other women hot. 6) you get the idea... Never ever lie to your husband. That's also the rule...except... 1) If he asks if you had an orgasm. 2) See (1) If he doesn't know the truth about that he needs to. Sheesh, how is he supposed to learn? I've been married a long time and that issue was yeeeeeaaaarrrrsss ago. But, a wife has to be honest about that unless they both want to be sexually frustrated for the rest of their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I am obsessed with telling the truth, so I don't lie. I have never seen the point of it. I didn't realise how obsessed I was until I got myself into a situation that, if it had been misinterpreted, could have landed me in jail but I still didn't lie about it. I don't lie to spare the feelings of others, I just learnt how to shut up when I need to. Or, one of my favourites is "if you don't know whether your ass looks fat in that without my help go see an optometrist". Yeah, I'm pretty truthful that way too. Just to play devil's advocate, why is telling the truth a higher value than sparing someone their feelings or avoiding unnecessary conflict? Just for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 I am obsessed with telling the truth, so I don't lie. I have never seen the point of it. I didn't realise how obsessed I was until I got myself into a situation that, if it had been misinterpreted, could have landed me in jail but I still didn't lie about it. I don't lie to spare the feelings of others, I just learnt how to shut up when I need to. Or, one of my favourites is "if you don't know whether your ass looks fat in that without my help go see an optometrist". Yeah, I'm pretty truthful that way too. Just to play devil's advocate, why is telling the truth a higher value than sparing someone their feelings or avoiding unnecessary conflict? Just for instance. I think it undermines trust because the truth usually comes out in other ways. Then, your character comes into question and conflict results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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