The Bible Boogyman

[OnceConvinced]

Satan does not have time to worry about you!

 

Get real, please! Satan is not omnipresent, as he is not God and is only a mere angel. This means that he cannot possibly be out tempting everyone on the planet at the same time and that includes you. He just doesn’t have enough time in the day. Nor is he omniscient, so he does not have knowledge of every human being, so what makes you think he’s even heard of you? Even then, what makes you think you even register on his radar as someone who he needs to manipulate? Please get down off your high horse. No supernatural being cares about your dirty little habits or lack thereof and what you do or don’t do behind closed doors. You just aren’t that big a deal!

 

Anyway, if you were Satan, wouldn’t you have better things to do than try to drag every human on Earth down with you? You’d be out living it up for as long as you can before God finally gets off his lazy keister and does something about you. Please! What kind of sick being would get its jollies spending its every waking moment trying to coerce human beings into doing perverse and evil acts? Furthermore, how even more sick and twisted is a being who’d create such a warped creature? Ask yourself that!

 

Here’s another question for you too. What kind of stupid, moronic being would ever try to usurp the position of the creator of the universe? I mean come on, Satan’s not stupid is he? Is he? Well he must be if he could ever believe he could be more powerful than God. In fact, he would have to be some A grade moron, or worse! Unless… Well… I mean God wasn’t too bright putting such a warped creature in power in the first place, especially considering he knew beforehand what a despicable villain he’d created. On the other hand, perhaps God was such a terrible, cruel taskmaster, that Satan rebelled on principle?

 

God, if he really existed and did create Satan, is clearly malevolent or stupid right?

[YellowJacket]

I would post that on my FB if I thought I could get away w/ it.

[LivingLife]

Satan is THE cornerstone of the xian faith, not jeebus. W/o satan being omnifuckingeverything too, there is no threat and the fear factor loses some oomph.

 

Thus, hell and stan the man are integral to the longevity of the woo factor we know as xianity. He is also the go to guy when they fuck up and sin, gotta blame someone else.

 

That said, the omnifuckingeverying god really seems powerless to actually protect his creation form stan the man. But according the wholly babble, stan actually gets bad press, he does come off the lesser evil of the two dickheads.

 

IOW I agree with you

[Rev R]

Thus, hell and stan the man are integral to the longevity of the woo factor we know as xianity. He is also the go to guy when they fuck up and sin, gotta blame someone else.

 

Stan Lee is the devil?

 

edit: Excelsior! True Believers.

[LivingLife]

Stan the man has many disguises and pseudonyms

[LivingLife]

Got to admit, Ray wise has a wicked smile and the best devil I have seen on TV in a long time. (Reaper)

 

[Mriana]

Demented. You forgot demented.

[OnceConvinced]

I would post that on my FB if I thought I could get away w/ it.

 

So would I! But I just have so many Christian family and friends on there. As it is I have one Christian member here on this site replying to me by PMs on it. ha ha.

[OnceConvinced]

Demented. You forgot demented.

 

Good point! Just added it to the bottom of the list

[rayskidude]

Satan does not have time to worry about you! Anyway, if you were Satan, wouldn’t you have better things to do than try to drag every human on Earth down with you? You’d be out living it up for as long as you can before God finally gets off his lazy keister and does something about you. Please! What kind of sick being would get its jollies spending its every waking moment trying to coerce human beings into doing perverse and evil acts? Furthermore, how even more sick and twisted is a being who’d create such a warped creature? Ask yourself that!

 

Here’s another question for you too. What kind of stupid, moronic being would ever try to usurp the position of the creator of the universe? I mean come on, Satan’s not stupid is he? Is he? Well he must be if he could ever believe he could be more powerful than God. In fact, he would have to be some A grade moron, or worse! Unless… Well… I mean God wasn’t too bright putting such a warped creature in power in the first place, especially considering he knew beforehand what a despicable villain he’d created. On the other hand, perhaps God was such a terrible, cruel taskmaster, that Satan rebelled on principle?

 

God, if he really existed and did create Satan, is clearly malevolent or stupid right?

 

Hey, you seem to know alot about Satan - what he does, how he would spend his time, how He is so stupid, etc. When was your last conversation with Satan? What did he tell you? I certainly am interested - kinda that whole "Know your enemy" strategery.

 

But seriously - have you considered the mystery of iniquity? Sin is puzzling - why would anyone pursue the sin that leads to their ultimate destruction? Why does anyone engage in any sin at any time - other than they believe that sin will deliver the pleasure that sin promises. And believing that this temporary life on Earth is all that there is to their existence, how many would pursue personal pleasure and fulfillment?

 

In fact, Mankind takes the Law of God - which is designed to reveal God's holy character and lead us into the good life - and we rebel against God's Law, seek our own ways, and then blame God for how we screwed up our own lives. Why? Because we want what we want, when we want it, the way we want it - we are the measure of our universe.

 

That Satan was created capable of sin does in no way mandate sin. And that Satan has better things to do that to cruelly drag people into his kingdom >> wow, have you not read anything about human dictators? Who do think has so influenced human dictators? Have these men been stupid - no. They were diabolically & keenly intelligent, and set out to establish themselves as rulers . How else could they exercise power and influence over do many, were they not intelligent and persuasive to so many? Same for Satan - not stupid, but thoroughly deceived by his own beauty and pride.

 

Is Satan a moron - NO. Has he allowed himself to be, and even desired to be, driven by his own sinful desires for his own purposes? Does he not see the end of his actions? Why is he so spiteful? Why doesn't he repent and get right with God?

 

Here's what we know;

 

Isaiah 14:12–16 (ESV)

 

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,

O Day Star, son of Dawn!

How you are cut down to the ground,

you who laid the nations low!

13 You said in your heart,

‘I will ascend to heaven;

above the stars of God

I will set my throne on high;

I will sit on the mount of assembly

in the far reaches of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High.’

15 But you are brought down to Sheol,

to the far reaches of the pit.

16 Those who see you will stare at you

and ponder over you:

‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,

who shook kingdoms,

 

Ezekiel 28:11–18 (ESV)

 

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD:

 

“You were the signet of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

every precious stone was your covering,

sardius, topaz, and diamond,

beryl, onyx, and jasper,

sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;

and crafted in gold were your settings

and your engravings.

On the day that you were created

they were prepared.

14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.

I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;

in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created,

till unrighteousness was found in you.

16 In the abundance of your trade

you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;

so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,

and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,

from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty;

you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.

I cast you to the ground;

I exposed you before kings,

to feast their eyes on you.

18 By the multitude of your iniquities,

in the unrighteousness of your trade

you profaned your sanctuaries;

so I brought fire out from your midst;

it consumed you,

 

If sin can so deceive, warp, bring dementia, bring eternal destruction, blind, generate illogical thoughts, cause to suppress righteousness, and turn an exalted angel against God His Creator - think about what it can do to a human being.

 

Yet God is merciful and gracious, and He will save anyone who calls on Him for the grace and mercy available in Christ Jesus.

 

Ephesians 2:4–10 (ESV)

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

[florduh]

Hey, you seem to know alot about Satan

I would just interject that the referenced post was merely examining the the ramifications of the information furnished by the Biblical legend, and possibly trying to see how it might make some sense or at least be a cohesive picture of the character. Questions were raised in the post, no definitive answers given.

[Antlerman]

 

Here's what we know;

 

Isaiah 14:12–16 (ESV)

 

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,

O Day Star, son of Dawn!

How you are cut down to the ground,

you who laid the nations low!

13 You said in your heart,

‘I will ascend to heaven;

above the stars of God

I will set my throne on high;

I will sit on the mount of assembly

in the far reaches of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High.’

15 But you are brought down to Sheol,

to the far reaches of the pit.

16 Those who see you will stare at you

and ponder over you:

‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,

who shook kingdoms,

 

Who does it say this is talking to? Satan? Verse 4 specifies, "that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say..." So Satan is the King of Babylon??? Why is Satan desirous of the far reaches of the North? Why is he called a man? Why is he covered with worms and accompanied by harps (‘Your pomp and the music of your harps have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you and worms are your covering", vs. 11)?? So many mysteries to overcome to make this about Satan, yet you claim this is clear information.

 

Nice hermeneutics there Ray. Still not quite getting it yet I see. Ever wrangling to make things fit how you believe.

[OnceConvinced]

 

Hey, you seem to know alot about Satan - what he does, how he would spend his time, how He is so stupid, etc. When was your last conversation with Satan? What did he tell you? I certainly am interested - kinda that whole "Know your enemy" strategery.

 

I go by what the bible says about him and what Christians believe about him. I then take what I know about intelligent beings, combine it with those claims and then apply a little logic to come to my conclusions. Perhaps, being a Christian you might not be familiar with logic?

 

But seriously - have you considered the mystery of iniquity?

 

Used to talk about it all the time when I was a Christian. Kind of a bizarre question, considering you're on a site full of Ex-Christians. Most of us are aware of the silly things the bible teaches.

 

 

Sin is puzzling

 

Only if you try to see it from a religious perspective. What you see is sin is simply human nature with a relgious twist to it. WE all have a human nature, we all have animal instincts. When we act on these things in ways the religious leaders of biblical times didn't like, then it becomes known as sin.

 

- why would anyone pursue the sin that leads to their ultimate destruction? Why does anyone engage in any sin at any time - other than they believe that sin will deliver the pleasure that sin promises. And believing that this temporary life on Earth is all that there is to their existence, how many would pursue personal pleasure and fulfillment?

 

Not all sin brings pleasure and even the pleasurable ones, people wouldn't want to do 24 hours a day every day. I love sex but I wouldn't want to do it all day long. But if the bible is to believed then Satan is spending 24 hours a day every day trying to manipulate people to do evil. That's just nonsense.

 

 

In fact, Mankind takes the Law of God - which is designed to reveal God's holy character and lead us into the good life - and we rebel against God's Law, seek our own ways, and then blame God for how we screwed up our own lives. Why? Because we want what we want, when we want it, the way we want it - we are the measure of our universe.

 

How does any of this apply to the bible boogyman? Do you believe Satan to be omniscient and omni-present? Do you serously believe that there is some demented creature who goes around spending all his time trying to manipulate people do do evil? Really? Seriously?

 

 

That Satan was created capable of sin does in no way mandate sin. And that Satan has better things to do that to cruelly drag people into his kingdom >> wow, have you not read anything about human dictators?

 

I've learnt enough about dictators to know they didn't spend all their time going around doing the same things over and over. In fact from what I've learnt most of their time was spent living it up and taking advantage of their power. They are also not omnipresent and omniscient. Think about it. If what you, the bible and other Christians claim is true about Satan, then he is like a goldfish that swims around in a bowl around and around in circles never getting bored. However intelligent creatures would soon tire of that very quickly. Think of a baby with a rattle who can play with it for hours. An adult would get bored after about ten seconds. If you are to be taken seriously, Satan is like that little child with the rattle. So we are expected to believe that for the last 6 or 7 thousand years or more, a highly intelligent being called Freddie Kruger... err I mean Satan is going around spending all his time trying to manipulate people so they will ultimately end up in hell being barbequed by God for all eternity. Yeaaaaah riggggght!

 

And another thing, when was the last time a dictator decided to make every single human on the planet suffer, including all future generations to come?

 

Who do think has so influenced human dictators?

 

Ooooh ooooh I know this one... a really evil being by the name of ahhhhhh... oh yeah, Pinhead! Am I right? Am I right?

 

 

Have these men been stupid - no.

 

But they would be stupid if they attempted to rebel against an even great dictator who could wipe them out in a word. They would have to be complete morons.

 

They were diabolically & keenly intelligent, and set out to establish themselves as rulers . How else could they exercise power and influence over do many, were they not intelligent and persuasive to so many? Same for Satan - not stupid, but thoroughly deceived by his own beauty and pride.

 

Have you really given any thought at all to the things I said in my opening post? Clearly not. Why would a highly intelligent creature ever risk rebelling against an all powerful being they knew they had no hope of getting the better of? You yourself insist Satan is not stupid.

 

 

Is Satan a moron - NO.

 

Clearly he is if he rebelled against an all powerful supposedly loving and wonderful being.

 

Has he allowed himself to be, and even desired to be, driven by his own sinful desires for his own purposes? Does he not see the end of his actions? Why is he so spiteful? Why doesn't he repent and get right with God?

 

Good questions. Are you now claiming to be an expert on Satan? Chatted with him lately? Perhaps the reason he is all these things is because God intended him to be. The bible certainly shows us in the OT that Satan was like God's lap dog. You can see the book of Job for an example of this. Satan did God's dirty work for him. He was only allowed to act when God gave him permission. Perhaps God wanted Satan to run riot, perhaps to give him a bit of competition? Ever thought of that? Like a chess game. Chess is no fun when you play it by yourself, you need an opponent. God most likely realised that. Imagine a world with no sin and no Satan. Everybody worshipping God and everything's wonderful. No drama for God. No entertainment value. there's only so much ass kissing you can take before you get bored, right...? Mmmmm, I guess it will be like that in heaven. Better watch it, you might find God gets bored again and decides to create another evil sickening creature to taunt his creations with.

 

Perhaps Satan rebelled against God on principle and in Heaven when you find out what a cruel task master God is you might decide to rebel too?

 

Here's what we know;

 

{A whole heap of rubbish from a book written by ignorant bronze aged tribesmen}

 

Ahhh, no, that's now what we know. Its what's claimed by some superstitious guys thousands of years ago, with no evidence to back any of it up.

 

BTW, here's what we know about Pinhead (and this stuff has been discovered by people in this day and age!) Oh and please don't take them seroiusly when they say he's fictional. We know, you and I, that Pinhhead is real right?

 

Pinhead

 

If sin can so deceive, warp, bring dementia, bring eternal destruction, blind, generate illogical thoughts, cause to suppress righteousness, and turn an exalted angel against God His Creator - think about what it can do to a human being.

 

Seeing as there is no evidence that sin has any obvious ill effect on humans (apart from any physical harm they do to themselves while sinning), I'd have to say the bible is wrong on its claims. You still haven't explained how it is a non-omsnisceint, non-omnipresent being like Satan knows about everyone and is able to get around to everyone to manipulate them and deceieve them all at the same time. Is he like Santa Claus who has magical ways to get around the world in one day and deliver gifts to all the boys an girls? Perhaps he's like an anti-santa. Maybe like the Grinch... although from what we know about the Grinch he doesn't have any supernatural powers.

 

Here's what we know about the Grinch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinch

 

And while we're at it, we'd better brush up on our knowledge of Voldemort, seeing as he's returning very soon for one last attempt at destroying Harry Potter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voldemort

 

 

Yet God is merciful and gracious,

Oh yes, he's shown lots of mercy and grace towards Satan. That's for sure. And very little grace and mercy towards the majority of his victims. However what do you call a God who creates a sickening and evil creature like Satan and allows him to run rampant? It might be what you might call a day care centre owner who allows a known paedophile to run rampant in his daycare centre.

 

and He will save anyone who calls on Him for the grace and mercy available in Christ Jesus.

 

Which requires one to believe there is a need for an imaginary God called Jesus Christ.

 

Anyway, I see you have ignored these questions in the thread. Perhaps you might like to have a go at answering them?

 

1) How would you describe a God who would create such a warped evil creature like Satan? (will you be the first to answer option 5 in the poll?)

 

2) God, if he really existed and did create Satan, is clearly malevolent or stupid right?

[OnceConvinced]

Hey, you seem to know alot about Satan

I would just interject that the referenced post was merely examining the the ramifications of the information furnished by the Biblical legend, and possibly trying to see how it might make some sense or at least be a cohesive picture of the character. Questions were raised in the post, no definitive answers given.

 

Thanks for pointing that out Florduh!

[AlphaToOmega]

Here's what we know;

 

 

More correctly, there's what you think you know and it isn't much.

 

AtO: 12.2

There is no Satan. There is no God. There is no Jesus.

Blessed are those who know this truth.

Condemned to a wasted life are those that do not.

For only a fool can believe in the magical.

Those who know the truth will lead happy lives.

Those that do not will be miserable and populate the prison cells with the rest of their immoral brothers and sisters.

Such are the days of our lives.

These are the words of truth.

 

Well, now you know the truth. Its right there. Its the truth. It says so right there.

Statistics even back it up.

Must be true.

Only a fool would not accept this message.

You're not a fool are you?

[rayskidude]

'rayskidude' timestamp='1309539985' post='676629']

 

Isaiah 14:12–16 (ESV)

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,

O Day Star, son of Dawn!

How you are cut down to the ground,

you who laid the nations low!

13 You said in your heart,

‘I will ascend to heaven;

above the stars of God

I will set my throne on high;

I will sit on the mount of assembly

in the far reaches of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High.’

15 But you are brought down to Sheol,

to the far reaches of the pit.

16 Those who see you will stare at you

and ponder over you:

‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,

who shook kingdoms,

 

Who does it say this is talking to? Satan? Verse 4 specifies, "that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say..." So Satan is the King of Babylon??? Why is Satan desirous of the far reaches of the North? Why is he called a man? Why is he covered with worms and accompanied by harps (‘Your pomp and the music of your harps have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you and worms are your covering", vs. 11)?? So many mysteries to overcome to make this about Satan, yet you claim this is clear information.

 

Nice hermeneutics there Ray. Still not quite getting it yet I see. Ever wrangling to make things fit how you believe.

 

A-man - good to hear from you. But I think you know that I am well aware that the king of Babylon is being directly addressed here in Isaiah - just as the king of Tyre is directly addressed in Ezekiel. And scholars have long noted that the statements made concerning these kings go well beyond what could be said of a human ruler. Biblical Christians do not approach Scripture with a 'wooden' literalism. We're well aware of multiple applications within certain passages of Scripture - wouldn't you agree with this hermeneutic? Or do you think that these passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel should be restricted to refer only to these human rulers?

[rayskidude]

rayskidude says "Sin is puzzling."

 

Only if you try to see it from a religious perspective. What you see is sin is simply human nature with a relgious twist to it. WE all have a human nature, we all have animal instincts. When we act on these things in ways the religious leaders of biblical times didn't like, then it becomes known as sin.

 

So, what are you saying re: sin? Is it real? Is it evil? Or is it just human weakness? If just weakness - why hold anyone accountable for sins & crimes? Plz explain your position.

 

Not all sin brings pleasure and even the pleasurable ones, people wouldn't want to do 24 hours a day every day. I love sex but I wouldn't want to do it all day long. But if the bible is to believed then Satan is spending 24 hours a day every day trying to manipulate people to do evil. That's just nonsense. Do you believe Satan to be omniscient and omni-present? Do you serously believe that there is some demented creature who goes around spending all his time trying to manipulate people do do evil? Really? Seriously?

 

What's the hang-up with the 24/7 thing? Satan is not omniscient nor omnipresent. Satan is in active rebellion against God and His people, seeking to deter God's purposes - but he is granted only temporary power.

 

Luke 22:31–34 (ESV)

Jesus Foretells Peter’s Denial

31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 33 Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”

 

Job 1:8–12 (ESV)

8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

 

Note that Peter repented, returned to following the Lord, and was a mighty leader of the fledgling church. And we know that Job also repented, and God restored the blessings of Job. Satan does not thwart the purposes of God.

 

If what you, the bible and other Christians claim is true about Satan, then he is like a goldfish that swims around in a bowl around and around in circles never getting bored. However intelligent creatures would soon tire of that very quickly. Think of a baby with a rattle who can play with it for hours. An adult would get bored after about ten seconds. If you are to be taken seriously, Satan is like that little child with the rattle. So we are expected to believe that for the last 6 or 7 thousand years or more, a highly intelligent being called Freddie Kruger... err I mean Satan is going around spending all his time trying to manipulate people so they will ultimately end up in hell being barbequed by God for all eternity. Yeaaaaah riggggght!

 

What makes you think that a former exalted angel who has now plunged himself into eternal misery and destruction that he has brought upon himself and others in a failed coup against the God of the universe should be compared to children? Are you saying that you can analyze the psychology of Satan and determine that it's directly relatable to how adults would play with a rattle? Seriously?? lol.

 

Why would a highly intelligent creature ever risk rebelling against an all powerful being they knew they had no hope of getting the better of? You yourself insist Satan is not stupid. Clearly he is if he rebelled against an all powerful supposedly loving and wonderful being.

 

Yes, why? Could it be that he was so deceived by his power and beauty and intelligence and sin that he thought he could actually pull it off and become like Yahweh? Did Hitler think he could fight a war on two fronts and win - despite what his generals were telling him? The mystery of iniquity, my friend. It blinds people to reality.

 

A whole heap of rubbish from a book written by ignorant bronze aged tribesmen

 

Hmmm.. a bit of an elitist, I see.

 

Seeing as there is no evidence that sin has any obvious ill effect on humans (apart from any physical harm they do to themselves while sinning), I'd have to say the bible is wrong on its claims.

 

I know you want to reconsider this statement - we all know that the sin of despots, criminals, sickos, etc certainly harm others.

 

1) How would you describe a God who would create such a warped evil creature like Satan? (will you be the first to answer option 5 in the poll?)

 

2) God, if he really existed and did create Satan, is clearly malevolent or stupid right?

 

Here's what we know

 

Genesis 1:31 (ESV)

31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

 

Ezekiel 28:11–18 (ESV)

 

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD:

 

“You were the signet of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

every precious stone was your covering,

sardius, topaz, and diamond,

beryl, onyx, and jasper,

sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;

and crafted in gold were your settings

and your engravings.

On the day that you were created

they were prepared.

14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.

I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;

in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created,

till unrighteousness was found in you.

16 In the abundance of your trade

you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;

so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,

and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,

from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty;

you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.

I cast you to the ground;

I exposed you before kings,

to feast their eyes on you.

18 By the multitude of your iniquities,

in the unrighteousness of your trade

you profaned your sanctuaries;

so I brought fire out from your midst;

it consumed you,

and I turned you to ashes on the earth

in the sight of all who saw you.

 

God has created a universe of beings who are free moral agents - and some have turned to sin, to their own ways - rather than live humbly under the rule of their Creator, Yahweh. Would you have preferred that all beings were created as automatons, incapable of independent thought and action?

 

What do I think of God? That He created everything out of love, and He desires that all His created beings live in harmony together with God and one another; yet God grants freedom. Though many rebel, yet God redeems - and one day all who place their faith in God, trusting in the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, will live as He has always planned.

 

Revelation 21:1–8 (ESV)

 

The New Heaven and the New Earth

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

[Antlerman]

A-man - good to hear from you. But I think you know that I am well aware that the king of Babylon is being directly addressed here in Isaiah - just as the king of Tyre is directly addressed in Ezekiel. And scholars have long noted that the statements made concerning these kings go well beyond what could be said of a human ruler.

Actual scholars or Christian theologians? These things "go well beyond" the "plain meaning of the text", only when they suit a particular traditional theological reading. It's a non-critical scholarship of applied double-standards. It's the plain meaning when it suits their beliefs, it "goes well beyond" that plain meaning when it suits their beliefs. The only true consistency is their religious biases.

 

Could you please tell me what words in that passage cannot possibly be applied directly to a human ruler, demanding they "go well beyond" the plain meaning of the text? And before you embarrass yourself, being 'cast down from heaven' can very easily be taken as poetic, metaphorical expression. It is far from uncommon in literature and common speech.

 

Biblical Christians do not approach Scripture with a 'wooden' literalism.

I wasn't aware Christians thought with a single mind. Unless of course you mean those who do think with a single mind are the only real Christians? Oh, yes, there it is in your sentence: "Biblical Christians", as distinct from who only just use the Bible, right? Biblical Christians being those who place the Bible on equal footing as God itself. Bibliolaters, right?

 

Such a foolish lot.

 

You're right though, "Biblical Christians" are inconsistent in their literalism. They alone are worthy of the title cherry-pickers. If they were wooden at least they'd be consistent in the boasts of knowing truth.

 

We're well aware of multiple applications within certain passages of Scripture - wouldn't you agree with this hermeneutic? Or do you think that these passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel should be restricted to refer only to these human rulers?

I think they should be read in the context of the day without reading back some later, supposedly 'revealed truth' from another group of religious believers who added their own myths several centuries later, then claim the proper interpretation of a religious text of the Jews, while demonstrably doing a poor job of it.

 

But I certainly do see that there are multiple layers of meaning that can be parsed out of any text, regardless of its origins. A good myth has that feature, and why they are useful as ways to talk about the world. But only the fool, or rather the ignorant, read them literally. Read this: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1332

 

(From that link):

"Not only is imagination a strain; even to imagine what a symbolic world is like is difficult. Poetry is turned into prose, truth into statistics, understanding into facts, education into note-taking, art into criticism, symbols into signs, faith into beliefs."

[lynx]

That Satan was created capable of sin does in no way mandate sin. And that Satan has better things to do that to cruelly drag people into his kingdom >> wow, have you not read anything about human dictators? Who do think has so influenced human dictators? Have these men been stupid - no. They were diabolically & keenly intelligent, and set out to establish themselves as rulers.

Actually, I would call them stupid, yes. I do not consider extreme malice to be a trait of higher intelligence. Perhaps you do, because you've taken this example of behavior and intelligence from your christian god's traits. Simply being diabolical and knowing how to manipulate others for self-serving purposes is not a sign of intelligence, in my opinion. On top of that, you are anthropomorphizing what is supposed to be an ephemeral being.

 

How else could they exercise power and influence over do many, were they not intelligent and persuasive to so many[

According the the bible, god created this "most beautiful" angelic being with the capacity for those traits. It was part of god's plan, no? According to the bible? So, satan had no choice or free will. According to your beliefs, the entire religion and god's plan would not have been possible otherwise. If god knew he would rebel, why did he create him with this capacity, with the ultimate intention of banning him to the burning pit? This sounds exactly like what the bible says about human creation...oh hey, I think it is the same story...satan is just symbolism for that.

 

Same for Satan - not stupid, but thoroughly deceived by his own beauty and pride.

Sounds exactly like christians, who are deceived by their own pride and beauty as the special, chosen children of god. Everyone else is not in the elite club and we are to be taught by those more insightful than us, preached at, and looked upon with pity. How incredibly prideful and pretentious. There is a huge difference between ex-christians and those who have never been there or accepted the religion. You'd best understand that difference.

 

Is Satan a moron - NO. Has he allowed himself to be, and even desired to be, driven by his own sinful desires for his own purposes?

Satan as defined in the bible was an angel, not a human. Sinful natures are supposed to be a part of human nature. Angels have "human" natures too? Well, that makes about as much sense as the rest of the bible.

 

Yet God is merciful and gracious, and He will save anyone who calls on Him for the grace and mercy available in Christ Jesus.

Many here have done that and nothing happened. They're faith continued to dwindle. And yes, they were VERY sincere.

 

Does he not see the end of his actions? Why is he so spiteful? Why doesn't he repent and get right with God?

Most likely because if we can imagine this god existing, he has not used his omniscience to allow for these things to happen. Or put a better way, he has used his omniscience to forbid it, much as he hardened Pharaoh's heart.

 

My interpretation of this figure called satan was that he was just a symbol for human nature, not a real being. Therefore, he is not spending any time manipulating anyone, but rather, they are being manipulated by their own nature and the evolutionary forces that compel them. The story of satan is purely symbolic. Either that or satan is the ugly side of god in this story--one in the same--split personality, which would explain why satan temporarily has omniscient qualities, because he's a part of god. So, maybe when god throws satan into the lake of fire, that is symbolic of him annihilating the evil side of his nature, which is all supposed to happen when the the humans who were believers are taken to heaven with him, at which time the bad side of their human nature will also be annihilated. Boy, I'm really weird today. I have no idea where that came from.

 

By the way, all those bible versus you quote are a waste of time and space. We read them several times over when we were xtians.

[lynx]

So, what are you saying re: sin? Is it real? Is it evil? Or is it just human weakness? If just weakness - why hold anyone accountable for sins & crimes? Plz explain your position.

Because members of a species will protect themselves from threats. It's simple. We're just not calling it sin. I assume your speaking of crimes which we have laws against. You may call it what you like...weakness, evil, etc. It is behavior that is detrimental to others and society as a whole. But consider the many sins listed in the bible. Most of them are not illegal because they have not been determined to be a danger or threat to anyone, yet they are still defined by the bible as "sins against god". We don't hold anyone accountable for those (well, at least not in secular societies).

 

What's the hang-up with the 24/7 thing? Satan is not omniscient nor omnipresent. Satan is in active rebellion against God and His people, seeking to deter God's purposes - but he is granted only temporary power.

The hangup is not ours. The hangup belongs to xtians who constantly evaluate every single imperfection or every negative thought they have (biblically speaking, which happens constantly) as satan's influence or attack on them.

 

A whole heap of rubbish from a book written by ignorant bronze aged tribesmen

 

Hmmm.. a bit of an elitist, I see.

I actually don't see it as rubbish. It's great literature and an interesting commentary on human nature. The bible contains some very good ethical principles to live by. It's just that we didn't need the religious context in order to understand these things.

 

Seeing as there is no evidence that sin has any obvious ill effect on humans (apart from any physical harm they do to themselves while sinning), I'd have to say the bible is wrong on its claims.

 

I know you want to reconsider this statement - we all know that the sin of despots, criminals, sickos, etc certainly harm others.

There is no doubt that human actions have caused a great deal of suffering. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. It's just a matter of what you think the cause is and what the solutions are. We differ on that.

 

Here's what we know

 

quoting tons of bible verses ....

 

God has created a universe of beings who are free moral agents - and some have turned to sin, to their own ways - rather than live humbly under the rule of their Creator, Yahweh.

NO! Circular reasoning.

 

What do I think of God? That He created everything out of love, and He desires that all His created beings live in harmony together with God and one another; yet God grants freedom. Though many rebel, yet God redeems - and one day all who place their faith in God, trusting in the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, will live as He has always planned.

That should have its own thread. The responses will be lengthy.

 

Edit: typos

[Eugene39]

I honestly have no idea on how to answer the poll question. Here's why.

 

In Isaiah 45:7, God is portrayed as creating both good and evil - sort of a yin yang god. Depending on which translation is used, the meaning of good and evil gets tossed around a little. Next, we have God teaming up with Satan to accomplish something. God used Satan in testing Job, and then God had the Spirit drive Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Then, there is the fundie view which needs no elaboration.

 

So, does Satan exist? Or is God and Satan just strange bed-fellows on occasion? Or are they cosmic enemies? I need a fundie to answer this so I know how to vote!

[OnceConvinced]

rayskidude says "Sin is puzzling."

 

Only if you try to see it from a religious perspective. What you see is sin is simply human nature with a relgious twist to it. WE all have a human nature, we all have animal instincts. When we act on these things in ways the religious leaders of biblical times didn't like, then it becomes known as sin.

 

So, what are you saying re: sin? Is it real? Is it evil? Or is it just human weakness? If just weakness - why hold anyone accountable for sins & crimes? Plz explain your position.

 

I would have thought it would have been obvious. We all have our human nature, our animal instincts. If we act on them and in the process it harms others, then we must be held accountable. We are not mindless beasts that don't know any better.

 

 

What's the hang-up with the 24/7 thing? Satan is not omniscient nor omnipresent. Satan is in active rebellion against God and His people, seeking to deter God's purposes -

 

Thus my point. Satan cannot possibly be going around manipulating people tempting them to do evil acts so that they will ultimately end up in hell. If he is not omniscient or omnipresent then it is an impossibility because he would have to be spending every single moment of his time doing it. In fact he'd need more than just every single moment. Do you not believe that Satan is going around tempting people trying to manipulate people? How do you figure he does this when not omniscient or omnipresent?

 

but he is granted only temporary power.

 

OH and who granted him this power? God of course. Why would God grant any power to such a malevolent evil creature unless he himself was malevolent evil creature? Why would he not remove Satan's power from him immediately? To not do that does not show love to his creations. It only shows love towards Satan. It only shows mercy towards Satan. Meanwhile Satan uses that power to drag humans down to his level, resulting in God having to roast them for all eternity. And you really see God as wonderful and loving? Really?

 

What makes you think that a former exalted angel who has now plunged himself into eternal misery and destruction that he has brought upon himself and others in a failed coup against the God of the universe should be compared to children? Are you saying that you can analyze the psychology of Satan and determine that it's directly relatable to how adults would play with a rattle? Seriously?? lol.

 

YOu're not getting it. I'm trying to show a comparison betwen an intelligent and a non-intelligent being. An intelligent being would get bored out of his tree doing the same thing over and over. If the bible is to be believed then that is exactly what Satan is doing.

 

 

Why would a highly intelligent creature ever risk rebelling against an all powerful being they knew they had no hope of getting the better of? You yourself insist Satan is not stupid. Clearly he is if he rebelled against an all powerful supposedly loving and wonderful being.

 

Yes' date=' why? Could it be that he was so deceived by his power and beauty and intelligence and sin that he thought he could actually pull it off and become like Yahweh? Did Hitler think he could fight a war on two fronts and win - despite what his generals were telling him? .[/quote']

 

Then that makes Satan a complete moron then, doesn't it? You use the example of Hitler, but he did not have an even more powerful dictator ruling over him. He was not trying to usurp the role of the almighty God. Think about it yourself. If you were rubbing shoulders with a wonderful loving God who respected you and gave you lots of responsibility and power, who you knew you could never get the better of and who could wipe you out with a single thought, would you every try to rebel? Of course you wouldn't! Not unless he was such an evil tyrant you were doing it on principle. Let's get real here. The whole concept is obviously a fictional story and a majorly flawed one at that.

 

The mystery of iniquity, my friend. It blinds people to reality

 

Oh, a little like the bible does for Christians?

 

 

A whole heap of rubbish from a book written by ignorant bronze aged tribesmen

 

Hmmm.. a bit of an elitist' date=' I see.[/quote']

 

Not at all. It's just very difficult to deny that the bible is full of ignorance, written by people who knew little about the world and how it worked. They knew nothing about plate techtonics, micro-organisms, weather patterns and many other things. They thought illnesses were curses from God and natural disasters were his punishments. For them anything they couldn't explain they put down to "Goddidit". You don't see that as ignorant? We may still not know a lot but we know a lot more about science and the universe than they did. Probably in a 1000 years from now the people of the day will say we in the 21st century were ignorant. I don't have a problem with that, because they'll probably know a lot more than what we do now. Even if they say "Geeze, that OnceConvinced was an ignorant mother fucker." I'm ok with that, because I know I don't have all the answers and I am open to the possibility of being wrong. When you live 30 years believing wholeheartedly that the bible is the word of God and that it knows what it's talking about, only to discover that when it came to the really important stuff, it didn't... you are kind of forced to admit that you were wrong to believe it.

 

Seeing as there is no evidence that sin has any obvious ill effect on humans (apart from any physical harm they do to themselves while sinning)' date=' [/u']I'd have to say the bible is wrong on its claims.

 

I know you want to reconsider this statement - we all know that the sin of despots, criminals, sickos, etc certainly harm others.

 

But we're talking about the perpetrator here, not any alleged victim. The symptons you described are related to the person committing the sin, not the effects on the victim. Sin has no obvious direct ill effects on the person committing it. You claim it warps and brings dementia which is simply not true. As for the other things you mention, there is no proof that it causes those things at all. You may claim it happens, the bible may even claim it, but it doesn't make it true and you can't show it to be true.

 

So I'll ask you, please can you provide medical or scientific evidence that sin does the following things in what you stated here:

 

"If sin can so deceive, warp, bring dementia, bring eternal destruction, blind, generate illogical thoughtscause to suppress righteousness, and turn an exalted angel against God His Creator - think about what it can do to a human being."

 

 

Here's what we know (translation: Here's what the ignorant bronze aged tribesmen who wrote the bible claim)

 

Genesis 1:31 (ESV)

31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

 

Ok, so God saw Satan as good even though, being omniscient he knew when he created him what a warp sickening creature Satan would eventually become. He made no changes to his design to prevent this from happening. Check. That so far makes God either apathetic or malevolent.

 

Ezekiel 28:11–18 (ESV)

 

And you believe this is describing Satan? Why? The Jews who wrote it didn't even believe in Satan. They believed in a guy named Lucifer who was one of God's lapdogs. I'm sure someone here can show you what this section is really talking about. I have heard before, but I can't recall.

 

God has created a universe of beings who are free moral agents - and some have turned to sin, to their own ways - rather than live humbly under the rule of their Creator, Yahweh.

 

And we know this how? Because the bible says so?

 

 

Would you have preferred that all beings were created as automatons, incapable of independent thought and action?

 

 

Seems your God is a very limited God. You are saying he can't give us freewill and eradicate the problem of sin as well?

 

Ask yourself this. How do you think God will deal with sin in heaven? Do you think you will be an automaton then,incapable of indepedent thought an action? If God is able to prevent that from happening in Heaven, why not on Earth? There are many ways I can think of to prevent sin without the need for violating freewill. All it requires is a little imagination, which obviously the bible writers didn't have... well actually that's not true, they did make up a lot of fantastical stuff. Let's just say they had limited imagination. Anyway, if it came down to it, I'd rather be a robot than burn for all enternity in hell simply because I just wasn't able to believe in Jesus or the bible. In fact, if God is real, I'd invite him to take my freewill from me, just so I can avoid his unquenchable genocidal wrath.

 

What do I think of God? That He created everything out of love, and He desires that all His created beings live in harmony together with God and one another; yet God grants freedom. Though many rebel, yet God redeems - and one day all who place their faith in God, trusting in the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, will live as He has always planned.

 

Lovely sentiments, aren't they? But the bible writers were clearly delusional if they ever believed that could happen. I can't understand how you can read the bible and see God as loving. It just contradicts what we see in his actions in these stories and with what we see in the world today. A loving caring God would never have let Satan loose in the playground. He stands by and watches as Satan does his dirty work, but yet does nothing. You can't see how that is malevolent, incompetent or apathetic?

[OnceConvinced]

I honestly have no idea on how to answer the poll question. Here's why.

 

In Isaiah 45:7, God is portrayed as creating both good and evil - sort of a yin yang god. Depending on which translation is used, the meaning of good and evil gets tossed around a little. Next, we have God teaming up with Satan to accomplish something. God used Satan in testing Job, and then God had the Spirit drive Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Then, there is the fundie view which needs no elaboration.

 

So, does Satan exist? Or is God and Satan just strange bed-fellows on occasion? Or are they cosmic enemies? I need a fundie to answer this so I know how to vote!

 

Fair enough. That's why I kind of see it all as being like a chess game. God creates this game, but needs someone to be his opponent. So what does he do? He calls his buddy Satan in to play. But once the game starts then the knives come out.

 

I will give Rayskidude some credit though. He has been the only Christian willing to come into this thread and debate.

[DesertBob]

Here’s another question for you too. What kind of stupid, moronic being would ever try to usurp the position of the creator of the universe? I mean come on, Satan’s not stupid is he? Is he? Well he must be if he could ever believe he could be more powerful than God. In fact, he would have to be some A grade moron, or worse! Unless… Well… I mean God wasn’t too bright putting such a warped creature in power in the first place, especially considering he knew beforehand what a despicable villain he’d created. On the other hand, perhaps God was such a terrible, cruel taskmaster, that Satan rebelled on principle?

 

God, if he really existed and did create Satan, is clearly malevolent or stupid right?

When I was a believer, this was all covered by a blanket exemption for god, under the general hand-waving heading of dismissal, "god's ways are past finding out / he knows best / we'll understand someday". Which tells me that it never made any kind of sense to me and I just didn't want to admit it.

 

Many things one experiences in everyday reality are totally inconsistent with god's alleged omnibenevolence and omnipotence and omniscience. This is but one of them. Not having to constantly reconcile my experience with my beliefs is just about my only reliable source of joy these days, and I revel in it for all it's worth. There is no freedom like the freedom of the formerly captive.

[lynx]

Excellent post, OnceConvinced!

 

Ask yourself this. How do you think God will deal with sin in heaven? Do you think you will be an automaton then,incapable of indepedent thought an action?

Wouldn't the typical xtian answer to this be that there is no sin possible in heaven, because our sinful natures no longer exist and we have been transformed into new heavenly beings? Then how is it that satan, a heavenly being, an angel, sinned against god? The other problem is that nothing seems to be set in stone in this place called heaven any more than it is on earth. There are wars and all kinds of strange things happening. Eternity is a rather long time and an omniscient god could do whatever he pleases as eternity progresses. Xtians would say that god is perfect, therefore he will keep his promises to us.

 

I think one of the reasons xtians conclude that we have turned away from xtianity due to being angry with god is because they don't understand we are only discussing our viewpoints about characters in stories when we raise these issues. They interpret our viewpoints to mean that deep down we actually think god is exists but is malevolent, so we don't like him. We simply don't believe the god of the bible exists at all and we use these stories to illustrate why he doesn't make logical sense. He is not consistent with the highest intelligence in the universe, neither an all loving one, nor a just one, etc. There are many other inconsistencies in the bible as well, so we have rejected it as the ultimate truth.

 

Xtians claim that we just don't understand the bible or god, but we have been where they are and we thought we understood it at the time, just as they do now. When they talk to us, it's a mirror of our past selves. The truth is that they don't understand god or the bible either. That is why they are forced to resort to "God works in mysterious ways" ... "We can't possible understand god with our limited capacity" ...those types of weak rationalizations. I attempted to use those same rationalizations to maintain my faith when I was a xtian. I had an incredible amount of faith and accepted that I did not need to understand what didn't make sense ... that god was perfect and it was only my own lack of understanding that would make me doubt that. Thankfully I came out of that fog.