The Bible Boogyman

[lynx]

Many things one experiences in everyday reality are totally inconsistent with god's alleged omnibenevolence and omnipotence and omniscience.

I can really relate to that. So true.

[Suzy]

 

Many things one experiences in everyday reality are totally inconsistent with god's alleged omnibenevolence and omnipotence and omniscience. This is but one of them. Not having to constantly reconcile my experience with my beliefs is just about my only reliable source of joy these days, and I revel in it for all it's worth. There is no freedom like the freedom of the formerly captive.

Absolutely!

 

 

 

[rayskidude]

I honestly have no idea on how to answer the poll question. Here's why. In Isaiah 45:7, God is portrayed as creating both good and evil - sort of a yin yang god. Depending on which translation is used, the meaning of good and evil gets tossed around a little.

 

Isaiah 45:5–7 (ESV)

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other,

besides me there is no God;

I equip you, though you do not know me,

6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun

and from the west, that there is none besides me;

I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form light and create darkness,

I make well-being and create calamity,

I am the LORD, who does all these things.

 

 

Next, we have God teaming up with Satan to accomplish something. God used Satan in testing Job, and then God had the Spirit drive Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Then, there is the fundie view which needs no elaboration. So, does Satan exist? Or is God and Satan just strange bed-fellows on occasion? Or are they cosmic enemies? I need a fundie to answer this so I know how to vote!

 

Let's ask the question - is it morally wrong for God to test allegiance and love? When God allows Satan to harass Job, or when His Spirit leads Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted > does God do wrong? Was God uncertain about the outcome of these trials?

Certainly not! God is well aware that His Son, His Messiah will not sin. And God is well aware that Job will not curse Him - though Job will question God - but after a time of testing Job will repent of any sin.

 

Isaiah 40:15–28 (ESV)

15 Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket,

and are accounted as the dust on the scales;

behold, he takes up the coastlands like fine dust.

17 All the nations are as nothing before him,

they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.

 

18 To whom then will you liken God,

or what likeness compare with him?

19 An idol! A craftsman casts it,

and a goldsmith overlays it with gold

and casts for it silver chains.

21 Do you not know? Do you not hear?

Has it not been told you from the beginning?

Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,

and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;

who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,

and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

23 who brings princes to nothing,

and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.

25 To whom then will you compare me,

that I should be like him? says the Holy One.

28 Have you not known? Have you not heard?

The LORD is the everlasting God,

the Creator of the ends of the earth.

He does not faint or grow weary;

his understanding is unsearchable.

 

Does God test the unbelievers, knowing they will sin? Yes, to show them their sin. God reveals truth to man through their trials.

 

Isaiah 42:23–25 (ESV)

23 Who among you will give ear to this,

will attend and listen for the time to come?

24 Who gave up Jacob to the looter,

and Israel to the plunderers?

Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned,

in whose ways they would not walk,

and whose law they would not obey?

25 So he poured on him the heat of his anger

and the might of battle;

it set him on fire all around, but he did not understand;

it burned him up, but he did not take it to heart.

 

So, even despite the fact that sin leads men away from God - and despite the dire consequences of that sin; yet many choose to remain in unbelief, in rebellion against God.

 

Matthew 23:37–38 (ESV)

Lament over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate."

 

Does God use Satan to accomplish His purposes - yes. Is God morally wrong to do so - no. God uses Satan to reveal truth to Man, and Man is always urged to repent and turn to God for grace & mercy.

[rayskidude]

Satan cannot possibly be going around manipulating people tempting them to do evil acts so that they will ultimately end up in hell. If he is not omniscient or omnipresent then it is an impossibility because he would have to be spending every single moment of his time doing it. In fact he'd need more than just every single moment. Do you not believe that Satan is going around tempting people trying to manipulate people? How do you figure he does this when not omniscient or omnipresent?

 

Satan does not to be omniscient and omnipresent to tempt many people, I would liken his tactics to what CS Lewis portrays in The Screwtape Letters. But again, Satan needs only to be active and motivated to accomplish his purposes.

 

Why would a highly intelligent creature ever risk rebelling against an all powerful being they knew they had no hope of getting the better of? You yourself insist Satan is not stupid. Clearly he is if he rebelled against an all powerful supposedly loving and wonderful being. Then that makes Satan a complete moron then, doesn't it? You use the example of Hitler, but he did not have an even more powerful dictator ruling over him. He was not trying to usurp the role of the almighty God. Think about it yourself. If you were rubbing shoulders with a wonderful loving God who respected you and gave you lots of responsibility and power, who you knew you could never get the better of and who could wipe you out with a single thought, would you every try to rebel? Of course you wouldn't! Not unless he was such an evil tyrant you were doing it on principle. Let's get real here. The whole concept is obviously a fictional story and a majorly flawed one at that.

 

This is where you are simply choosing not to acknowledge the truth - it is the mystery of Iniquity. You are assuming that intelligent people always act wisely, or are incapable of being unwise. Yet that is not true. Isn't history filled with highly intelligent people who were deceived by their own (alleged) prowess into thinking they could rule the world? Do you think that they're unaware of God - or they just don't care? And isn't history filled with various peoples who line up behind their ruler, despite his cruelty, because of national pride and personal profit? Sin blinds people, and Satan, to reality.

 

Psalm 2:1–6 (ESV)

 

The Reign of the LORD’s Anointed

2 Why do the nations rage

and the peoples plot in vain?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves,

and the rulers take counsel together,

against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,

3 “Let us burst their bonds apart

and cast away their cords from us.”

 

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;

the Lord holds them in derision.

5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,

and terrify them in his fury, saying,

6 “As for me, I have set my King

on Zion, my holy hill.”

 

 

I cannot explain why many wicked people are so evil - but I know that their wickedness originates in their own sinful hearts.

 

Mark 7:20–23 (ESV)

20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

 

"If sin can so deceive, warp, bring dementia, bring eternal destruction, blind, generate illogical thoughts, cause to suppress righteousness, and turn an exalted angel against God His Creator - think about what it can do to a human being." You asked for scientific proof for this statement.

 

I simply look to the history of mankind - one continuous parade of cruelty. Until Christianity made inroads in many areas around the globe. And if it isn't sin that has brought so much misery to mankind. what would you call it?

 

Genesis 1:31 (ESV)

31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. [/b]

 

Ok, so God saw Satan as good even though, being omniscient he knew when he created him what a warp sickening creature Satan would eventually become. He made no changes to his design to prevent this from happening. Check. That so far makes God either apathetic or malevolent.

 

You have limited yourself to human philosophy here. I suggest that God's design is to display His glory by rescuing and bringing deliverance to any and all who will call on Him. God delights in bringing salvation to desperate people, and through His power, God's people are conquerors over evil. God's people overcome evil with good; and they do so by the grace of God at work in them. There is no apathy nor malevolence.

 

Romans 8:16–23 (ESV)

16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

 

Romans 8:31–39 (ESV)

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

 

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;

we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

 

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

1 John 2:12–14 (ESV)

 

12 I am writing to you, little children,

because your sins are forgiven for his name’s sake.

13 I am writing to you, fathers,

because you know him who is from the beginning.

I am writing to you, young men,

because you have overcome the evil one.

I write to you, children,

because you know the Father.

14 I write to you, fathers,

because you know him who is from the beginning.

I write to you, young men,

because you are strong,

and the word of God abides in you,

and you have overcome the evil one.

 

Revelation 21:6–7 (ESV)

6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son."

 

So, in what looks like certain defeat for God's people, God saves them and they reign with Him forever and ever. And this salvation is available to all who call upon God for grace & mercy.

 

Would you have preferred that all beings were created as automatons, incapable of independent thought and action?

Seems your God is a very limited God. You are saying he can't give us freewill and eradicate the problem of sin as well?

 

When God's purpose is accomplished on this Earth, there will be an eternal kingdom when all peoples in the new Heavens and Earth will freely and lovingly live in harmony with God and each other.

 

What do I think of God? That He created everything out of love, and He desires that all His created beings live in harmony together with God and one another; yet God grants freedom. Though many rebel, yet God redeems - and one day all who place their faith in God, trusting in the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, will live as He has always planned.

 

A loving caring God would never have let Satan loose in the playground. He stands by and watches as Satan does his dirty work, but yet does nothing. You can't see how that is malevolent, incompetent or apathetic?

 

Once again you have purposely limited yourself to the thoughts of your finite mind. Who says God stands by and does nothing? God has and does deliver many people from severe trials. If people call out to God, He will save them.

 

Romans 10:12–13 (ESV)

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

However, God also allows His people to suffer, and for some even to be martyred. Is God cruel? Does God not care? Is He impotent?

 

Revelation 6:9–11 (ESV)

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

Revelation 7:9–17 (ESV)

 

A Great Multitude from Every Nation

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,

and serve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;

the sun shall not strike them,

nor any scorching heat.

17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,

and he will guide them to springs of living water,

and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

 

Bro >> when they sing in New Orleans;

"Oh when the saints come marching in, Oh when the saints come marching in;

How I want to be in that number, when the saints come marching in!

 

Do they sound forlorn, cheated and mistreated by God? Or do they sing for joy, as those whom God has saved for His glory and their eternal good?

 

 

Isaiah 45:22–25 (ESV)

 

22 “Turn to me and be saved,

all the ends of the earth!

For I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn;

from my mouth has gone out in righteousness

a word that shall not return:

‘To me every knee shall bow,

every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

 

24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,

are righteousness and strength;

to him shall come and be ashamed

all who were incensed against him.

25 In the LORD all the offspring of Israel

shall be justified and shall glory.”

[AlphaToOmega]

ROFL

 

God blows.

None too well I'll add.

[AlphaToOmega]

Rayskydude,If God exists, he tried to send me to hell.

Fire, flames 100's of metres high igniting the gaseous expulsion of the native eucalypt's surrounding us.

Sparks and embers driven horizontally by wind approaching 100mph creating the most impressive firework display I'd ever witnessed.

Cars blowing up. Houses blowing up. Gas tanks (LPG) blowing up after venting 100 foot flames. The stench of burning bodies of animal and human alike.

Tail shafts of cars exploding leaving shrapnel in the remains of burnt out trees.

Tyre rims melting and running down like water before solidifying once the front passed.

Tree's measured in feet in diameter exploding as their core built up pressure on fire and rolling down the hillside toward us.

Smoke that burned every breath we took combined with a migraine from the pits of hell itself. Animals dying around us from carbon monoxide.

Killed 179. Burned thousands of houses.

It was like being in a war zone and apart from three people, my wife, our neighbour and myself were there to hear and see it from our vantage point.

All the good Christians shit their pants and ran.

 

That was nature but if you think it was God then he failed to get me. Yet again.

I piss on your God and your stupid holy book.

 

Damned sick of hearing preachy biblay quotes that mean jack shit by people who wouldn't know how to stand up and fight their way out of a paper bag let alone a cult or a life threatening situation where you have to rely on yourself not some pissy figment of someone else's imagination that you decided to adopt as your own.

 

Maybe you'd like some pictures of what hell actually looks like?

Ask and you shall receive.

 

You have no fucking clue. You preach the words of the stupid book of lunacy while missing the event that is your life.

Get a clue.

 

ATO 12.24

God is a wanker and his followers are the rag he uses to wipe up the mess.

Only a fool would deny such truth.

 

See the above reference for the facts of life.

 

Moderators and fellow ex-Christians,

I apologise for my outburst.

Having scotch to relax then reading the shit posted above threw me over the edge.

Biblay quotes just set my hair on fire. Not sure what that is about.

If you want me to take time out, to chill out, no problem.

But right now, this wanker is more than I can take and be silent.

[LivingLife]

I apologise for my outburst

None needed.

 

What I really cannot understand is how theists are so fucking dense to think that their wholly babble is authoritative to us heathen?

 

The twats cannot have a discussion w/o streaming walls of text.

[Antlerman]

Moderators and fellow ex-Christians,

I apologise for my outburst.

Having scotch to relax then reading the shit posted above threw me over the edge.

Biblay quotes just set my hair on fire. Not sure what that is about.

If you want me to take time out, to chill out, no problem.

But right now, this wanker is more than I can take and be silent.

Checking.... checking... check. Yep, Lion's Den. Carry on.... Feast at will.

[Eugene39]

When God allows Satan to harass Job, does God do wrong? Was God uncertain about the outcome of these trials? Certainly not! And God is well aware that Job will not curse Him - though Job will question God - but after a time of testing Job will repent of any sin.

I don't know if you have kids or not, but would you want God to test your allegiance and love by allowing Satan to kill your kids, as He allowed Satan to do to Job? I certainly would hope that God wouldn't do that to you. Do you think YHWH is justified in killing your kids? Anybody's kids? Maybe there was a real guy named Job that had a string of bad luck. I see the book of Job as a bunch of navel-gazing that they did in trying to understand why it happened. It's enough to make me sick, because it's still going on today. Just a few weeks ago, my f-i-l was dragged to death by horses. Some preacher is there trying to console people that God has a plan and a purpose in all this. I felt like calling "Bull shit".

God is well aware that His Son, His Messiah will not sin.

Why is Jesus used for a perfect example for us to follow in not sinning, when He was incapable of sinning? Even back in my Christian days, that one didn't make sense.

God uses Satan to reveal truth to Man, and Man is always urged to repent and turn to God for grace & mercy.

I can't remember ever hearing of God using Satan to reveal truth. Satan was the father of lies and tried to keep us from seeing the truth. Elaborate or clarify - if you wish.

 

So, one final question: if God is aware of how all these tests are going to turn out, what is the purpose of them?

[OnceConvinced]

HI Ray, good to see you back and that the fruit of longsuffering is still in you.

 

Satan does not to be omniscient and omnipresent to tempt many people,

 

Yet every Christian out there claims that the devil tempts them. Every Christian out there claims that those who aren't Christians or those who are false Christians are being manipulated by Satan. He'd have to be omnipresent and omniscient to achieve that. Are the majority of Christians deluded, Ray?

 

Why would a highly intelligent creature ever risk rebelling against an all powerful being they knew they had no hope of getting the better of? You yourself insist Satan is not stupid. Clearly he is if he rebelled against an all powerful supposedly loving and wonderful being. Then that makes Satan a complete moron then, doesn't it? You use the example of Hitler, but he did not have an even more powerful dictator ruling over him. He was not trying to usurp the role of the almighty God. Think about it yourself. If you were rubbing shoulders with a wonderful loving God who respected you and gave you lots of responsibility and power, who you knew you could never get the better of and who could wipe you out with a single thought, would you every try to rebel? Of course you wouldn't! Not unless he was such an evil tyrant you were doing it on principle. Let's get real here. The whole concept is obviously a fictional story and a majorly flawed one at that.

 

This is where you are simply choosing not to acknowledge the truth -

 

Ahhh, no. For me to acknowledge truth I first must be shown it to be truth. If it was truth and could be shown to be so I would be forced to acknowledge it because I am simply not the sort of person that can lie to myself. At least not anymore. That time of my life ended when I came to the painful heart wrenching realisation that I no longer believed in the bible.

 

Ray: it is the mystery of Iniquity. You are assuming that intelligent people always act wisely, or are incapable of being unwise. Yet that is not true. Isn't history filled with highly intelligent people who were deceived by their own (alleged) prowess into thinking they could rule the world? Do you think that they're unaware of God - or they just don't care? And isn't history filled with various peoples who line up behind their ruler, despite his cruelty, because of national pride and personal profit? Sin blinds people, and Satan, to reality.

 

As I have already pointed out to you previously, these dictators you are using as an example did not have an all-powerful loving dictator over top of them who they rubbed shoulders with. They did not attempt to usurp the role of an super powerful dictator who they knew the could not possibly defeat (in fact many believed they were doing God's work). Nor did their power last for long. None of them have manipulated the human race as Satan supposedly has. Their influences are not going to result in billions of people burning in Hell. If Satan is as you claim him to be there's no way he'd have the control he has over mankind. Sorry, but you just can't compare a being like Satan to any human dictator. Satan was rubbing shoulders with a loving wonderful God. Put yourself in Satan's shoes. Would you do what he did? Of course you wouldn't, because you wouldn't be that deluded or stupid. Nobody would be.

 

 

Ray: I cannot explain why many wicked people are so evil - but I know that their wickedness originates in their own sinful hearts.

 

We're not talking about people here, we're talking about an angel who rubbed shoulders with God in Heaven. He turned against a supposedly loving, benevolent being, one he knew he had no chance of ever getting the better of. If the story is true then clearly the only reason he would have rebelled in reality is because the God he served was a malevolent cruel taskmaster, which is as the bible in general portrays him.

 

Sorry, but I just can't possibly believe that Satan would be that stupid if God was so wonderful. To me it reeks of being a made up story and I'm a writer, so I know about stuff like that.

 

 

"If sin can so deceive, warp, bring dementia, bring eternal destruction, blind, generate illogical thoughts, cause to suppress righteousness, and turn an exalted angel against God His Creator - think about what it can do to a human being." You asked for scientific proof for this statement

I simply look to the history of mankind - one continuous parade of cruelty. Until Christianity made inroads in many areas around the globe. And if it isn't sin that has brought so much misery to mankind. what would you call it?.

 

I'd call it human nature and animal instincts. When a male lion eats the lion cubs of a female lion so it can have sex with her, do you call that sin? Do you call that lion manipulated by Satan? There are many things in this world that warp, bring dementia, blind and generate logical thoughts that have nothing to do with evil. Mental illnesses is a huge one.

 

Genesis 1:31 (ESV)

31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

 

OC: Ok, so God saw Satan as good even though, being omniscient he knew when he created him what a warp sickening creature Satan would eventually become. He made no changes to his design to prevent this from happening. Check. That so far makes God either apathetic or malevolent.

 

Ray: You have limited yourself to human philosophy here. I suggest that God's design is to display His glory by rescuing and bringing deliverance to any and all who will call on Him. God delights in bringing salvation to desperate people, and through His power, God's people are conquerors over evil. God's people overcome evil with good; and they do so by the grace of God at work in them. There is no apathy nor malevolence.

 

Fine, but just don’t try to claim that God is loving and merciful when he is prepared for so many billions of his creations to go to hell simply to show his own glory. What that shows is a proud and narcissistic God who demands that all should worship him.

 

Try to think about this. I’ll give you a scenario. What say you have the opportunity to have a baby (through your wife, or girlfriend). In this situation you have been given a choice one night of whether you conceive this baby or not. You are also given a glimpse of the future and you know that if you have this baby he’s going to be a wonderful child, the perfect little angel until he reaches the age of 20. Once he’s 20 he is going to go on a psychotic rampage where he rapes, tortures and mutilates thousands of little children. Now all you have to do to prevent this child from being born is not have sex with your Mrs that particular night.

 

Question. Would you have sex with her that night and conceive that child? Or would you avoid having sex that night to avoid that child being born?

 

I’m betting that if you are honest with yourself, you would avoid having sex with her that night, because you know that you would have to be held partially responsible for unleashing such an abomination on mankind, by the fact that you knew before hand that you were going to conceive this child. You had the choice to give birth or to by pass conceiving him.

 

Now look at God and his creation of Satan. What we have here is exactly the same scenario, except… and I’m sure you’ll agree with me… Satans actions are far far worse than some guy raping and mutilating a few thousand children.

 

Can you not see that for God to create Satan and allow him to run amock makes him a truly evil malevolent being? Can you really not see that Ray? I mean come on! LOL

 

 

So, in what looks like certain defeat for God's people, God saves them and they reign with Him forever and ever. And this salvation is available to all who call upon God for grace & mercy.

 

Wow, now we're really digging into the realms of fantasy now. Would you take this seriously if it was in a children's book? LOL.

Meanwhile the majority of his creations are burning in hell suffering horribly. Yep, that shows a graceful and merciful God alright. I hope you’ll enjoy Heaven knowing that many of your loved ones with be suffering intense agony. Hope you’ll enjoy hanging out with the malevolent beast who’s forced this suffering upon them.

 

 

[

Ray: Would you have preferred that all beings were created as automatons, incapable of independent thought and action?

 

OC: Seems your God is a very limited God. You are saying he can't give us freewill and eradicate the problem of sin as well?

 

Ray: When God's purpose is accomplished on this Earth, there will be an eternal kingdom when all peoples in the new Heavens and Earth will freely and lovingly live in harmony with God and each other.

 

One day everything will be wonderful. One day! Meanwhile tough shit! I can't be bothered dealing with this problem of Satan and sin now. I'll deal with it when I good and ready... Yep... there's an apathetic God for you.

 

Talk is cheap. It’s all very well to say that one day everything will be wonderful. That can’t be shown as anything more than fantasy and there seems to be no guarantees we wouldn't just be ass-kissing automatons in Heaven. We'll be staring at his devine butt for all eternity and asking "Which cheek would you like me to kiss now, my malevolent one?"

 

Seems that your God is indeed a limited one, especially if he has to resort to the brutal slaying of an innocent being to bring forgiveness of sin.

 

 

You know, one day I’m gonna win the lottery, marry Dr Who's latest assistant Amy Pond and live in the lap of luxury for the rest of my life! Cool huh?

 

 

 

 

Ray: What do I think of God? That He created everything out of love, and He desires that all His created beings live in harmony together with God and one another; yet God grants freedom. Though many rebel, yet God redeems - and one day all who place their faith in God, trusting in the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, will live as He has always planned.

 

OC: A loving caring God would never have let Satan loose in the playground. He stands by and watches as Satan does his dirty work, but yet does nothing. You can't see how that is malevolent, incompetent or apathetic?

 

Ray: Once again you have purposely limited yourself to the thoughts of your finite mind. Who says God stands by and does nothing? God has and does deliver many people from severe trials. If people call out to God, He will save them.

 

Oh so you believe you have some supernatural understanding of all this? I call BS on that one. All we have is the finite mind. Anything else is pure fantasy. If you really thought about this, you’d see what I’m saying is true. But you choose to wrap that bible around your eyes so that you can’t see it.

 

Of course God stands by and does nothing. Satan is still running rampant isn’t he? God could easily have dealt with him thousands of years ago, but didn’t. God is omnipresent, is he not? But yet every day hundreds of people suffer horribly at the hands of evil people, yet God stands by and watches and does nothing. Even if God sometimes steps in and helps (which there is no evidence he ever does), that does not excuse his standing by and allowing things to happen all the rest of the time, especially when he was the one who allowed it to happen in the first place.

 

Here’s another scenario for you. If you come across some bastard raping and torturing a small child and you could stop this from happening without putting you or any of your loved ones in danger would you do it? Or would you walk by and do nothing? What if this child was your own child?

 

I’m guessing that you are a caring person and you would do whatever it took to stop that evil. That would also make you more caring and benevolent than the God you worship, because things like this happen to children every day and God does nothing to stop it.

 

Romans 10:12–13 (ESV)

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

This scripture is obviously a complete lie if you are trying to back up your claim that “. If people call out to God, He will save them.” People go through horrendous suffering and nobody comes to save them. That is a fact. To say otherwise is to be in complete denial of the horrible suffering that goes on around you. Are you really seriously making the claim that all one has to do to be saved is cry out to God? Really? You really believe that? Funny, because Jesus pretty much did it on the cross and got forsaken.

 

 

However, God also allows His people to suffer, and for some even to be martyred. Is God cruel? Does God not care? Is He impotent?

 

Clearly yes to all those questions, because he could end it all with a spoken word. An all powerful God would have no need of matyrs or for his people to suffer. Once again you paint a portrait of a limited God who is clearly apathetic. He could prevent suffering if he wanted to, just by stopping sin from tainting his creation in the first place. His actions or in this case lack of actions speaks for themselves, just as your inaction would show you to be uncaring if you didn’t stop your child from being brutalised. Quoting scriptures does not change reality. You might as well be quoting from a Dr Seuss book.

 

And before you start thinking that I really do hate God and that I really do believe God to be a cruel malevolent being, I don’t, not really. If there was a God, he wouldn’t be those things. This is one of the many reasons why I am simply unable to believe in the bible God, because the bible God is clearly all those things.

 

 

Ray: Bro >> when they sing in New Orleans;

"Oh when the saints come marching in, Oh when the saints come marching in;

How I want to be in that number, when the saints come marching in!

 

Do they sound forlorn, cheated and mistreated by God? Or do they sing for joy, as those whom God has saved for His glory and their eternal good?

 

Of course they don’t. Because they’re not the ones suffering, are they? They’re probably living a reasonably happy life. And like most Christians, they just haven’t really studied their bible properly, because then they’d know that the God they worship is malevolent, incompetent or apathetic. But they won’t see it… like you. They don’t want to see it. They place that bible over their eyes and strap it on tight. I know, I used to be the same! I was one of the lucky ones too. But I'm not blind to the suffering that goes on in this world and that f this so-called loving God is real, he allows it to continue and allows Satan to go about doing his dirty work, that God could easily stop or have prevented to begin with by erasing Satan and sin, which he is supposedly going to do one day anyway. Look at the mess this world is in now, all because of God's lack of forethought when he created everything.

 

BTW are you going to hurry up and put a check mark next to Option 5 on the poll? Because obviously you believe God to be loving and caring even though he created the sick and twisted being called Satan.

[agnosticator]

Who says God stands by and does nothing? God has and does deliver many people from severe trials. If people call out to God, He will save them.

 

Presently, a vast amount of children, pregnant women, old people, and animals experience extreme, pointless, unnecessary suffering and death. Everyday throughout the history of life on earth, the suffering and deaths of these innumerable beings continues on uninterrupted. Enjoy your placebo Ray.

[rayskidude]

Xtians claim that we just don't understand the bible or god, but we have been where they are and we thought we understood it at the time, just as they do now. When they talk to us, it's a mirror of our past selves. The truth is that they don't understand god or the bible either. That is why they are forced to resort to "God works in mysterious ways" ... "We can't possible understand god with our limited capacity" ...those types of weak rationalizations. I attempted to use those same rationalizations to maintain my faith when I was a xtian. I had an incredible amount of faith and accepted that I did not need to understand what didn't make sense ... that god was perfect and it was only my own lack of understanding that would make me doubt that. Thankfully I came out of that fog.

 

Are you saying that God does not, or cannot, work mysteriously sometimes? Do you think that if God exists - that we should be able to fully, exhaustively, & comprehensibly understand God? Would a God that we could fully understand be worthy of our worship, adoration, and love? He would only be our equal.

 

BTW - do you fully, exhaustively, or comprehensively understand any other human being, your spouse (if married), or even your own self? I submit that we would each predict how we would respond to a life-threatening situation - but when that reality occurs, all bets are off. We do not even understand our own selves, yet we claim that a God who accomplishes things in ways which don't make sense to us is fantasy. Hmmmmm...

 

But it is precisely because God is, in many ways, beyond our understanding that we worship Him as being exalted above His Creation. The degree to which we understand God is limited to what He has revealed thru His Creation, thru His Son Jesus Christ, and thru His Bible. These means reveal everything we need to understand reality; such that we may know God personally, and live in ways pleasing to Him.

 

I'm sure these passages are familiar to you.

 

Isaiah 55:6–9 (ESV)

6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found;

call upon him while he is near;

7 let the wicked forsake his way,

and the unrighteous man his thoughts;

let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him,

and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

 

2 Peter 1:3–4 (ESV)

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

[oddbird1963]

When God allows Satan to harass Job, does God do wrong? Was God uncertain about the outcome of these trials? Certainly not! And God is well aware that Job will not curse Him - though Job will question God - but after a time of testing Job will repent of any sin.

 

You betcha it's wrong, mister. It is morally wrong for any intelligent, sentient being who supposedly has compassion and empathy to fuck with people by causing them physical and emotional harm. That even applies to this god-entity you imagine is real.

 

Who cares if this magic deity knows the outcome? Harm people and you are , in the very least, a dick. Possess vast powers of knowledge, foresight and ability to manipulate physical reality and harm people, then you are an absolute monster.

 

This god of yours, if he existed, would be a monster.

 

I am so glad it does not exist.

[rayskidude]

Presently, a vast amount of children, pregnant women, old people, and animals experience extreme, pointless, unnecessary suffering and death. Everyday throughout the history of life on earth, the suffering and deaths of these innumerable beings continues on uninterrupted. Enjoy your placebo Ray.

 

Who says their suffering is either unnecessary or meaningless? And who says that it will continue on uninterrupted? If their suffering is unnecessary and meaningless - then why does it occur? Do we just log it as, "feces occurs?" How dismal, how despairing, how disturbing & depressing & pointless. All for what????

 

But I would maintain that all suffering fulfills a holy, just, and loving plan of God. God will, one day, conquer all evil, right all wrongs, bring peace and righteousness to all His people, and establish a new Heavens and Earth. Can I understand this fully now, at this time? No. Do I wish there was less suffering now, even much less? Absolutely. Do I look forward to that Day of deliverance? Eagerly.

 

Romans 8:18–25 (ESV)

Future Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

 

Do I blame God for all this suffering? No - because Man has brought so much of this upon himself. Why does God allow it? I do not know, other than God created man free and righteous - and Man sought his own way.

 

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (ESV)

29 See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

 

Proverbs 1:28–31 (ESV)

28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;

they will seek me diligently but will not find me.

29 Because they hated knowledge

and did not choose the fear of the LORD,

30 would have none of my counsel

and despised all my reproof,

31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way,

and have their fill of their own devices.

 

Does the spiritually dead status of all mankind thwart God's plan for His Creation? No.

 

Ephesians 2:4–7 (ESV)

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[rayskidude]

Moderators and fellow ex-Christians, I apologise for my outburst. Having scotch to relax then reading the shit posted above threw me over the edge. Biblay quotes just set my hair on fire. Not sure what that is about.

If you want me to take time out, to chill out, no problem. But right now, this wanker is more than I can take and be silent.

 

Seems as though I have offended you - for which I apologize and ask forgiveness. You've persevered thru a harrowing experience, one which I can in no way identify with. Re: any Christians who abandoned the scene simply for self-preservation >> such conduct is inexcusable.

 

We do know, however, that many Christians remained in European cities during the Black Plague to care for the sick. And many Christian missionaries have travelled and lived in remote areas where they have rendered needed humanitarian ministries; such as medical. educational, potable water, orphanages, etc.

 

I wish I could say that Christians are always wise, trustworthy, selfless; sheesh >> I wish I could say that professing Christians are usually characterized by these things >> but I know such is not the case. To our own shame.

[rayskidude]

I don't know if you have kids or not, but would you want God to test your allegiance and love by allowing Satan to kill your kids, as He allowed Satan to do to Job? I certainly would hope that God wouldn't do that to you.

 

I have three grown children, and my son has done three US Army tours in the Middle East (two deployments to Iraq, one to Afghanistan) - and No, I would not want God to test my allegiance in that way - who would? But I trust that I would not charge God with injustice. Hopefully I would live out my faith, understanding that sin has brought about all this misery, and that Mankind has reveled in their sin. And confident of God's love and faithfulness to His promise to save all who place their trust in Christ for salvation - after mourning their passing and our loss, I would look forward to our reunion in heaven. I pray that this would be my response.

 

Just a few weeks ago, my f-i-l was dragged to death by horses. Some preacher is there trying to console people that God has a plan and a purpose in all this. I felt like calling "Bull shit".

 

I agree with you, that moment was not the time to espouse theology. Even Job's friends were simply with him for several days before anyone spoke. And I believe CS Lewis responded angrily when friends sought to speak of God's sovereignty while he was grieving the death of his wife. There is a time & place for everything. Immediately after tragedy, be there and pray silently for them.

 

Why is Jesus used for a perfect example for us to follow in not sinning, when He was incapable of sinning? Even back in my Christian days, that one didn't make sense.

 

Jesus always did that which was pleasing to God the Father; so He is our example to follow. But also, because Jesus experienced temptation without sinning, He understands to full force and extent of any temptation - and He will give us grace and mercy when we call out to Him for strength to persevere thru any temptation or trial.

 

Hebrews 2:17–18 (ESV)

17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

Hebrews 4:14–16 (ESV)

Jesus the Great High Priest

14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

I can't remember ever hearing of God using Satan to reveal truth. Satan was the father of lies and tried to keep us from seeing the truth. Elaborate or clarify - if you wish.

 

That we can easily succumb to temptation/trial from Satan reveals our weakness, our sin nature, our need of God's saving grace, etc. Remember that Jesus told Peter that Satan had demanded permission to sift Peter as wheat >> and Jesus told Peter that after he was restored, he was to encourage his brothers in the faith. But our susceptibility to Satan's schemes also moves us to become spiritually strong by practicing the spiritual disciplines, and motivating us to abide in Christ >> placing our relationship with Christ as our top priority, so that we can resist temptation and live pleasing to our God.

 

John 15:4–9 (ESV)

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.

 

Ephesians 6:10–13 (ESV)

The Whole Armor of God

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

 

So, one final question: if God is aware of how all these tests are going to turn out, what is the purpose of them?

 

See above, to reveal truth to man. And also, God is glorified in His triumph over evil and that His people overcome evil with good.

[lynx]

Are you saying that God does not, or cannot, work mysteriously sometimes? Do you think that if God exists - that we should be able to fully, exhaustively, & comprehensibly understand God? Would a God that we could fully understand be worthy of our worship, adoration, and love? He would only be our equal.

 

BTW - do you fully, exhaustively, or comprehensively understand any other human being, your spouse (if married), or even your own self? I submit that we would each predict how we would respond to a life-threatening situation - but when that reality occurs, all bets are off. We do not even understand our own selves, yet we claim that a God who accomplishes things in ways which don't make sense to us is fantasy. Hmmmmm...

You've responded to a straw man, not me. I never used those words. Oh, and there are many things (people, ideas, actions) I understand fairly well that I don't necessarily love or respect and vice versa. Understanding something or not understanding it is not what makes it worthy of love or respect. Look Ray "dude", I was making a point about Xtians not understanding the contradictions and inconsistencies of the biblical god, evidenced by the fact that when they are confronted with contradictory elements and don't have any answer they resort to "mystery". This has nothing to do with understanding other human beings, myself, etc. They are not presenting themselves to me as gods, with major contradictions about the meaning of life and the rules of morality.

 

Some of us are driven to dissect mysteries and pursue further understanding of those things which we do not understand in order to evaluate whether they are consistent with certain claims that are involved. I am not egotistical enough to claim to understand anything fully, exhaustively, or comprehensively. Again, I never used those words, so how dare you insert them. A certain amount of understanding is often sufficient enough to form a conclusion You can make this into any kind of word game you choose, but then it just becomes you talking to yourself. Carry on doing that then.

 

Who says their suffering is either unnecessary or meaningless? And who says that it will continue on uninterrupted? If their suffering is unnecessary and meaningless - then why does it occur? Do we just log it as, "feces occurs?"

Yeah, for what? Why do animals suffer so tremendously? WHY? They are not human and did not "commit sin". Do they get a prize in the end and get to go to heaven so that their suffering is recompensed? According to most bible scholars, animals do not go to heaven. They also have absolutely nothing to learn from their suffering...nothing intellectual or spiritual. They just suffer. According to your bible, they are here for our use and humans are much more important to god. They are innocent sentient beings who are mercilessly tortured in this plane of existence. If you say it's because your god is punishing them for the sins of humans and that they are suffering because of the fall in the garden of eden, then as far as I'm concerned, your god, if he were to exist, should send himself to hell. On the other hand, if it was an ugly evolutionary accident that caused all of this to exist, then that explanation actually makes sense.

 

How dismal, how despairing, how disturbing & depressing & pointless. All for what????

Yeah, that's right. Here's the thing -- some of us have decided to face that and are able to have a level of compassion unrivaled because of it. Others use religion to explain it, only it doesn't really explain it, but because they can't handle how disturbing it is to think it really is nothing more, they make it fit anyway. It's the only way you can maintain your fairytale view of life, which drives you to survive and reproduce. The evolutionary forces that compel you easily explain why you need your concept of god.

 

We do know, however, that many Christians remained in European cities during the Black Plague to care for the sick. And many Christian missionaries have travelled and lived in remote areas where they have rendered needed humanitarian ministries; such as medical. educational, potable water, orphanages, etc.

Both Xtians and non-Xtians help others and do humanitarian work.

[agnosticator]

Presently, a vast amount of children, pregnant women, old people, and animals experience extreme, pointless, unnecessary suffering and death. Everyday throughout the history of life on earth, the suffering and deaths of these innumerable beings continues on uninterrupted. Enjoy your placebo Ray.

 

Who says their suffering is either unnecessary or meaningless? And who says that it will continue on uninterrupted? If their suffering is unnecessary and meaningless - then why does it occur? Do we just log it as, "feces occurs?" How dismal, how despairing, how disturbing & depressing & pointless. All for what????

 

There is way too much extreme suffering that has occurred in the past and present to be justified by pie-in-the-sky. The incredible amount of suffering visited upon innocents is pointless. Saying that starving to death (for example) must have meaning is an insane way to perceive it. Attaching meaning to pointless suffering is immoral,IMHO. Blaming "sin" or accepting some distant heaven to makeup for it, excuses the biblegod from immediately relieving it. So, in your world, it's extreme and random punishment from the biblegod or Satan or sin or even being born human. Explain it your way, and the reasons for suffering are cruel and unusual punishment. There is a definite lack of empathy and your reasons ring hollow.

 

Lynx said it best when she commented on animals suffering. They have nothing to learn from it. Come to think of it, neither do children.

[rayskidude]

Look Ray "dude", I was making a point about Xtians not understanding the contradictions and inconsistencies of the biblical god, evidenced by the fact that when they are confronted with contradictory elements and don't have any answer they resort to "mystery".

 

Please furnish me with an example that we can discuss.

 

 

Some of us are driven to dissect mysteries and pursue further understanding of those things which we do not understand in order to evaluate whether they are consistent with certain claims that are involved... A certain amount of understanding is often sufficient enough to form a conclusion.

 

This very same thing is true of Christians + we study God's word, we study God's Creation, and we draw conclusions. Many truths & facts are not obviously apparent - and there are some seeming contradictions in life, which all work to motivate us to further study, further thought, further investigation, further reflection - all with the purpose of understanding the 'big questions' about this universe.

 

Why do animals suffer so tremendously? WHY? They are not human and did not "commit sin". Do they get a prize in the end and get to go to heaven so that their suffering is recompensed? According to most bible scholars, animals do not go to heaven. They also have absolutely nothing to learn from their suffering...nothing intellectual or spiritual. They just suffer. According to your bible, they are here for our use and humans are much more important to god. They are innocent sentient beings who are mercilessly tortured in this plane of existence. If you say it's because your god is punishing them for the sins of humans and that they are suffering because of the fall in the garden of eden, then as far as I'm concerned, your god, if he were to exist, should send himself to hell. On the other hand, if it was an ugly evolutionary accident that caused all of this to exist, then that explanation actually makes sense.

 

Well, I don't see how an 'evolutionary accident' is any consolation to anyone who is suffering - it is simply meaningless suffering, with only despair as an outcome.

 

However, to realize that all Creation is under The Curse of sin does provide a rational basis for suffering. Suffering is the just consequence for sin, which Creation has brought upon itself for the rebellion against a holy loving God. That we all suffer to varying degrees shows us that all Creation functions as a whole, we all participate in the blessings and sufferings together collectively. This being the case, we also work to deliver one another from suffering. However, there are some who work to increase suffering, to subjugate others - these are especially evil. And those who are evil nearly always know they are evil - but since it works to their advantage and they sense no condemnation or punishment - they proceed from bad to worse.

 

In realizing all these truths - we know that this world is not 'right' - but how do we arrive at that conclusion? We all have an innate moral sense of right/wrong, reward/punishment, responsible/irresponsible/, work ethic, etc. These thoughts of extreme disappointment in this world which is not right - along with the thought of a real Utopia, or Shangri-La >> these thoughts are positive evidence that God has placed within us an inherent knowledge of an eternal heaven, the original Creation restored, in the Presence of our Loving Creator.

 

So - we're all in this life together. Together we have rebelled. But thankfully, God has promised that after He accomplishes His purposes for this current world - He will destroy this sinful universe, and He will create a New Heavens and New Earth in which righteousness dwells. No more sorrow, no more crying, no more pain, no more death >> God will dwell with His people.

 

2 Peter 3:9–13 (ESV)

9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

Revelation 21:1–8 (ESV)

The New Heaven and the New Earth

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

Yeah, that's right. Here's the thing -- some of us have decided to face that and are able to have a level of compassion unrivaled because of it. Others use religion to explain it, only it doesn't really explain it, but because they can't handle how disturbing it is to think it really is nothing more, they make it fit anyway. It's the only way you can maintain your fairytale view of life, which drives you to survive and reproduce. The evolutionary forces that compel you easily explain why you need your concept of god.

 

Actually - I don't see truth in anything here. I don't see unbelievers with unrivaled compassion - I see the exact opposite. I don't see Christians who can't handle disturbing truths or who force-feed thoughts to explain anything - but I see them wrestling with reality and seeking to live for God's glory and Man's good.

 

Both Xtians and non-Xtians help others and do humanitarian work.

That's a great blessing of humanity - we all share human sentiments that seek to come to the aid of those who suffer.

[rayskidude]

There is way too much extreme suffering that has occurred in the past and present to be justified by pie-in-the-sky. The incredible amount of suffering visited upon innocents is pointless. Saying that starving to death (for example) must have meaning is an insane way to perceive it. Attaching meaning to pointless suffering is immoral,IMHO.

 

And IMHO, you've stated no objective proof for these statements - they are simply opinion. You may say that they are informed, educated, rational opinions - but they remain opinions with no basis in truth.

 

Blaming "sin" or accepting some distant heaven to makeup for it, excuses the biblegod from immediately relieving it. So, in your world, it's extreme and random punishment from the biblegod or Satan or sin or even being born human. Explain it your way, and the reasons for suffering are cruel and unusual punishment. There is a definite lack of empathy and your reasons ring hollow.

 

Rebellious sin is a viable explanation - certainly moreso than sheer accident of evolution. Because we all understand crime & punishment, and we all understand that we participate collectively in the blessings & consequences of decisions made by our leaders, we all understand the call and responsibility to alleviate suffering as we have opportunity, etc.

 

Lynx said it best when she commented on animals suffering. They have nothing to learn from it. Come to think of it, neither do children.

 

Really? - children don't learn from experience? - animals don't learn from experience?

[agnosticator]

You may say that they are informed, educated, rational opinions - but they remain opinions with no basis in truth....

Really? - children don't learn from experience? - animals don't learn from experience?

 

So when a child or an animal starves to death, it's just my opinion that it's pointless, and you think they have something to learn from the experience? What amount of suffering do they need to go through, and what would they learn? If it's just my opinion according to your "objective" morality, it's still cruel in our subjective experience. A hell of a lot of suffering must be required in this life and the next, by your biblegod and his "objective" morals.

[centauri]

Jesus always did that which was pleasing to God the Father; so He is our example to follow.

That's Christian mythology hard at work.

Undermining parts of the law, such as the dietary restrictions, is certainly not pleasing to the Bible God.

Sinless Jesus is a fairy tale.

 

Hebrews 4:14–16 (ESV)

Jesus the Great High Priest

14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Revisionist theology.

Jesus wasn't qualified to be a high priest according to the law of God, nor was he a valid sacrifice for sin.

The Book of Hebrews is heresy with a capital "H".

[rayskidude]

'rayskidude' >> Really? - children don't learn from experience? - animals don't learn from experience?

 

So when a child or an animal starves to death, it's just my opinion that it's pointless, and you think they have something to learn from the experience? What amount of suffering do they need to go through, and what would they learn? If it's just my opinion according to your "objective" morality, it's still cruel in our subjective experience. A hell of a lot of suffering must be required in this life and the next, by your biblegod and his "objective" morals.

 

A-man, you raise valid points. It is difficult for us to understand why the degree of suffering we see is necessary. Whose heart does not break when we witness what certainly appears to be pointless suffering?

 

Let's suppose that there is no God - which means there is no morality. Which further means that there is no meaning - and as someone said here recently; "this is all an accident of evolution." Then we're all just screwed - and for no good reason!

 

But suppose that there is a God; He is holy & just. He establishes a loving Law for our good, knowing that any disobedience to this love will damage both the perpetrator and the victim. Yet, God grants that all men are free moral agents.

 

Result? People sin, and follow their own selfish desires.

 

Genesis 6:1–6 (ESV)

Increasing Corruption on Earth

6 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

 

As we see here, men began to conquer one another (Nephilim means "to fall upon" i.e.; to attack and conquer); and these Nephilim establish themselves as sheiks, such that they are not monogamous, but they build harems for themselves.

 

Freedom has resulted in sin and misery. Was God wrong to make men free moral agents?

 

Does God deliver from suffering? Note the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. The deliverance from disease and death and the Devil through the miracles of God's prophets and the Son of God. Note the kindnesses routinely demonstrated by people to each other.

 

Throughout history we see that suffering and tragedy and conflict and poverty has lead to acts of courage, selflessness, mercy, reconciliation, camaraderie, bravery, generosity, community service, restoration, grace, etc. Is this wrong?

The things which breed suffering lead to the righteous and loving response to suffering. The acts of righteousness shine so much brighter on the back-drop of tragedy! So there is meaning - that people, by the grace of God and in fellowship with one another, can overcome suffering and defeat evil-doers. Sinners can be saved and develop godly character.

 

And ultimately - God will right all wrongs, and deliver His people from all pain and suffering.

 

Revelation 21:1–4 (ESV)

The New Heaven and the New Earth

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

 

So, yes, suffering - even intense suffering - has meaning. And praise God that it does! Because the alternative is that all suffering is pointless.

[Antlerman]

'rayskidude' >> Really? - children don't learn from experience? - animals don't learn from experience?

 

So when a child or an animal starves to death, it's just my opinion that it's pointless, and you think they have something to learn from the experience? What amount of suffering do they need to go through, and what would they learn? If it's just my opinion according to your "objective" morality, it's still cruel in our subjective experience. A hell of a lot of suffering must be required in this life and the next, by your biblegod and his "objective" morals.

 

A-man, you raise valid points. It is difficult for us to understand why the degree of suffering we see is necessary.

Let's be clear. You're responding to Agnosticator's points, not mine. "A-man" is what people say around here as a short for my user name.

 

I actually do see suffering as 'necessary' in some ways, but those ways are not consistent with the mythical idea of God you have. Suffering is part of what drives the evolutionary process to strengthen and better humanity itself. The very fact you are trying to rationalize it to make your inherited mythology from our past fit somehow with a rational understanding, shows that you too think it needs to be overcome. You too are part of that evolutionary process to improve itself, to better survive, to better live. And ironically you don't even recognize that fact.

 

Pre-modern myths always started with this notion of a once pristine state of the world that fell on a path downward towards ultimate blackness, and we are poised somewhere down that slope. Instead what we actually see once we have had to tools to actually examine it with, unlike those in primitive times, is that everything moves toward improvement, not destruction. Your myth is upside down.

 

In fact to my point you use your myth of looking to Christ to come on white horse through the clouds (hopefully avoiding our modern aircraft on his descent), as an expression of that very hope towards healing, health, and perfection that drives each and everyone of us. Your myth is an expression of that evolutionary force in our hearts that in fact drives us to betterment - not sin and destruction.

 

Yes, we are flawed and create suffering ourselves, but it is not our destination! We eschew it! You do too. According to your myth we and all of nature embrace destruction and suffering towards our own ultimate end. You have it all upside down.

 

Let's suppose that there is no God - which means there is no morality.

Huh? Wonderful leap to a conclusion there. I'd love to hear you support that rationally.

 

Which further means that there is no meaning - and as someone said here recently; "this is all an accident of evolution." Then we're all just screwed - and for no good reason!

This is quite ignorant coming from you. Do you care to have a debate with me?

 

Result? People sin, and follow their own selfish desires.

If this were true we would be worse than we were before. But we are not. Slavery? Gone. Women's rights? I could give you a long list of improvements if you'd like.

 

If you were right, what was cruelty before would seem as paradise to us today! But on the contrary where shudder at the thought of our ignorant past. We are better, not worse.

 

Anyway, again your myth is upside down.

[agnosticator]

It is difficult for us to understand why the degree of suffering we see is necessary. Whose heart does not break when we witness what certainly appears to be pointless suffering?

 

My example of pointless suffering is a child or animal who starves to death. You think it necessary. I see nothing to be learned from it but what misery is. Also in general, it is the AMOUNT of suffering in the world that is staggering and pointless.

 

 

Let's suppose that there is no God - which means there is no morality.

 

We are born with an innate, rough form of morality.

 

Which further means that there is no meaning - and as someone said here recently; "this is all an accident of evolution."

 

Feeling pain is not pointless, but necessary for living beings. It has meaning to sentient life. We learn from it. Evolution is just a label for how life changes and is related. I don't see it as an accident. Life is a complex web that's interrelated, and constantly changing and adapting. "Meaning" means something to humans. My dogs were happy with their lives, yet didn't need "meaning". Humans find many "meanings" within their lives, but the meaning of life itself would be to live and thrive within the environment. Religion adds to this, with an authority figure that enforces people's own subjective, learned morals projected outwards to the universe, promising eternal life if obeyed. I found meaning in music and nature.

 

Throughout history we see that suffering and tragedy and conflict and poverty has lead to acts of courage, selflessness, mercy, reconciliation, camaraderie, bravery, generosity, community service, restoration, grace, etc. Is this wrong?

 

No, it's not wrong. We can challenge and alleviate suffering by doing good.

 

So, yes, suffering - even intense suffering - has meaning. And praise God that it does! Because the alternative is that all suffering is pointless.

 

You miss my point. Not all suffering is pointless. There is a certain amount of suffering that is understandable, because without it life would not be possible. A-man said, “Suffering is part of what drives the evolutionary process to strengthen and better humanity itself.” I understand that. But Christianity values suffering in and of itself as a cosmic lesson that ends in eternal suffering with no relief. According to this story, the biblegod allowed billions to suffer for billions of years up to where we are now, and we haven't yet arrived to the eternity of hell. That's an overabundance. If the biblegod thinks this amount plus an eternity (for most people who ever lived) is necessary, then he’s cruel to the extreme.

 

According to your Bible, your God provided this overwhelming amount and relishes it for eternity. What kind of meaning is that? Misery for the majority, while only a fraction of beings are freed? But really. How can a being be perfect and free from pain, yet remain any semblance of a human being? Perfection and "objective morals" live in the imagination, not reality.