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Jesus Literalist. What Would Change Your Mind?


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Jesus literalist. What would change your mind?

 

Many books on Jesus and Christianity have come out of late questioning the historicity and source of both Jesus and the gospels. Most of these come down on the negative side of Jesus being real or of scripture coming from the apostles.

 

 

Please see 3 links in second post.

 

 

All who believe in Jesus and scripture must read the Bible literally, to some extent.

After all, what other book give Jesus historicity or literal existence? None.

There is not one historical secular document that I know of that indicates that some miracle working Jesus ever existed.

 

The Bible begins with a talking serpent and other miracles that defy nature and physics.. This should be warning enough, for anyone who can think independently that the Bible should not be read literally. Alas, this clear message is lost on some believers .

 

Most scholars know that the Bible is myth and can be read in a variety of ways. As allegory, myth or literal. They choose not to read it literally as that would mean that they would have to believe in fantasy miracles and magic. Most will not take that leap of faith.

 

The Catholic pope and most mainstream Abraham protestant religions say not to read the Bible literally but as stated above, they must read some of it literally to believe that Jesus actually existed. They do not seem to follow their own advise.

 

As a follower of a real historic Jesus, do you recognize that you are a literalist?

How deeply do you believe in fantasy, miracles and magic?

As an adult, do you see your fantastic beliefs as those of a healthy mind?

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc

 

What would it take for you to change your mind about fantasy, miracles and magic being real? These are required for you to believe in a real historic Jesus.

 

Keeping Jesus divine in our minds may discourage some in trying to follow his lead.

 

Is there something that would change your mind or start you seeing Jesus as an archetypal good man that we are to emulate?

 

 

Regards

DL

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Jesus literalist. What would change your mind?

 

Many books on Jesus and Christianity have come out of late questioning the historicity and source of both Jesus and the gospels. Most of these come down on the negative side of Jesus being real or of scripture coming from the apostles.

 

 

Please see 3 links in second post.

 

 

All who believe in Jesus and scripture must read the Bible literally, to some extent.

After all, what other book give Jesus historicity or literal existence? None.

There is not one historical secular document that I know of that indicates that some miracle working Jesus ever existed.

 

The Bible begins with a talking serpent and other miracles that defy nature and physics.. This should be warning enough, for anyone who can think independently that the Bible should not be read literally. Alas, this clear message is lost on some believers .

 

Most scholars know that the Bible is myth and can be read in a variety of ways. As allegory, myth or literal. They choose not to read it literally as that would mean that they would have to believe in fantasy miracles and magic. Most will not take that leap of faith.

 

The Catholic pope and most mainstream Abraham protestant religions say not to read the Bible literally but as stated above, they must read some of it literally to believe that Jesus actually existed. They do not seem to follow their own advise.

 

As a follower of a real historic Jesus, do you recognize that you are a literalist?

How deeply do you believe in fantasy, miracles and magic?

As an adult, do you see your fantastic beliefs as those of a healthy mind?

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDbesQQi9yc

 

What would it take for you to change your mind about fantasy, miracles and magic being real? These are required for you to believe in a real historic Jesus.

 

Keeping Jesus divine in our minds may discourage some in trying to follow his lead.

 

Is there something that would change your mind or start you seeing Jesus as an archetypal good man that we are to emulate?

 

 

Regards

DL

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but even liberal scholars believe Jesus existed. It's only extreme whackos like Acharya S who deny his existence. Only brain dead people believe her. If you want to question the miracles that's one thing, but Jesus' existence is not in doubt. Even though you'd like to think it is.

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Jesus literalist. What would change your mind?

 

Many books on Jesus and Christianity have come out of late questioning the historicity and source of both Jesus and the gospels. Most of these come down on the negative side of Jesus being real or of scripture coming from the apostles.

 

 

Please see 3 links in second post.

 

 

All who believe in Jesus and scripture must read the Bible literally, to some extent.

After all, what other book give Jesus historicity or literal existence? None.

There is not one historical secular document that I know of that indicates that some miracle working Jesus ever existed.

 

The Bible begins with a talking serpent and other miracles that defy nature and physics.. This should be warning enough, for anyone who can think independently that the Bible should not be read literally. Alas, this clear message is lost on some believers .

 

Most scholars know that the Bible is myth and can be read in a variety of ways. As allegory, myth or literal. They choose not to read it literally as that would mean that they would have to believe in fantasy miracles and magic. Most will not take that leap of faith.

 

The Catholic pope and most mainstream Abraham protestant religions say not to read the Bible literally but as stated above, they must read some of it literally to believe that Jesus actually existed. They do not seem to follow their own advise.

 

As a follower of a real historic Jesus, do you recognize that you are a literalist?

How deeply do you believe in fantasy, miracles and magic?

As an adult, do you see your fantastic beliefs as those of a healthy mind?

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDbesQQi9yc

 

What would it take for you to change your mind about fantasy, miracles and magic being real? These are required for you to believe in a real historic Jesus.

 

Keeping Jesus divine in our minds may discourage some in trying to follow his lead.

 

Is there something that would change your mind or start you seeing Jesus as an archetypal good man that we are to emulate?

 

 

Regards

DL

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but even liberal scholars believe Jesus existed. It's only extreme whackos like Acharya S who deny his existence. Only brain dead people believe her. If you want to question the miracles that's one thing, but Jesus' existence is not in doubt. Even though you'd like to think it is.

 

Some do. Mainly the ones that haven't looked into it enough. When you look into it there is no reason to believe he existed aside from the bible. Which is wack for someone who did so many crazy things.

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Sorry to burst your bubble but even liberal scholars believe Jesus existed. It's only extreme whackos like Acharya S who deny his existence. Only brain dead people believe her. If you want to question the miracles that's one thing, but Jesus' existence is not in doubt. Even though you'd like to think it is.

 

10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

 

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

 

14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

 

15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

 

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

 

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

 

24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

 

25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

 

26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

 

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

 

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

 

32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

 

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

 

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

 

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

 

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

 

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

 

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

 

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

 

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

 

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

 

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

 

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

 

You seem to be struggling with how you're supposed to behave in your belief system, so I've bolded the relevant parts for you.

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Sorry to burst your bubble but even liberal scholars believe Jesus existed. It's only extreme whackos like Acharya S who deny his existence. Only brain dead people believe her. If you want to question the miracles that's one thing, but Jesus' existence is not in doubt. Even though you'd like to think it is.

 

If you want to burst my bubble, you will need to put some substance to your claim with at least one piece of non biblical reporting from the past.

Have fun looking for it.

 

I am questioning miracles as they are tied directly to Jesus. If your miracles are real to you then you need to speak with a professional. Not to me.

 

Regards

DL

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry to burst your bubble but even liberal scholars believe Jesus existed. It's only extreme whackos like Acharya S who deny his existence. Only brain dead people believe her. If you want to question the miracles that's one thing, but Jesus' existence is not in doubt. Even though you'd like to think it is.

Yes, and for a long time, even liberal scholars believed Moses existed. There is a built in bias because most historians of xianity as well as the vast majority are christian and have a vested interest in presupposing that Jesus existed. Moreover, there is something inherently problematic about the historical accounts we have handed down of religious figures of antiquity such as Siddhartha Gautama, Confucius, and Jesus. Those figures of historical importance that were not founders of a religion or one of their major prophets tend to be widely reported with extant written accounts available from diverse, disinterested observers. Because Jesus and some others are widely promoted (by means of religion, which tends to get immunity from critical questioning), people in general tend to have a lower standard for accepting their historical authenticity than the authenticity of other historical figures. Figures such as Jesus tend to be known only through the folklore of their religion and only recorded in the writings, after the fact, of those involved in the agenda of promoting the religion. In the case of Jesus, the lack of extra-biblical documentation is problematic.

 

I personally have not been convinced one way or the other on the question of whether Jesus actually existed (or even whether he was a conglomeration).

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Here's another question: even if he did exist what makes him the son of God? He's not the only person in history alledged to have preformed miracles. He's not even the only person in the bible to do so, so what makes him divine? Cuase he said so?

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Sorry to burst your bubble but even liberal scholars believe Jesus existed. It's only extreme whackos like Acharya S who deny his existence. Only brain dead people believe her. If you want to question the miracles that's one thing, but Jesus' existence is not in doubt. Even though you'd like to think it is.

 

Whether or not he existed, doesn't really matter because it doesn't make a bit of difference to how my life will pan out. If he did, great, there still isn't enough tangible evidence that he was a divine character, probably just your average joe.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's another question: even if he did exist what makes him the son of God? He's not the only person in history alledged to have preformed miracles. He's not even the only person in the bible to do so, so what makes him divine? Cuase he said so?

 

It was all them thare miricles.

Don't cha know nathin ???

 

BTW.

That was a Christian answer.

 

Regards

DL

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Here's another question: even if he did exist what makes him the son of God? He's not the only person in history alledged to have preformed miracles. He's not even the only person in the bible to do so, so what makes him divine? Cuase he said so?

 

It was all them thare miricles.

Don't cha know nathin ???

 

BTW.

That was a Christian answer.

 

Regards

DL

 

And isn't it great that the bishops of the 4thish century church decided that the bible you read would say Jesus was the son of god. If they had decided different gospels were "correct" then we wouldn't have this problem.

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Noggy, never mind that you can go down the streets in your own TOWN, TODAY, and find preachers who will sell you the Jesus you want to believe in. Angry Puritan double-damning Calvinist Jesus? Check. Lovey-dovey left-wing United Methodist gay-friendly Jesus? Got him. Great spiritual teacher who does or doesn't even have to have been divine? Got him, too.

 

See, the thing about having BEEN a preacher is that I've not only read the fancy-ass theology books, I've also been in the trenches with lots and lots of different Christian types. I've had ministries that included, involved or at least invited every one of the types I listed above, and dozens more.

 

What would change my mind? Simple. If all the people who say that they are "led by", "filled with" or "baptized in" the "holy spirit" would actually demonstrate some obviously supernaturally-empowered character.

 

Funny thing is, I've been a couple of weeks away from having my wife and kids and I on the streets with no money and nowhere to go, and I have been helped beyond measure by TOTAL STRANGERS who aren't Christian. When I have asked Christians I KNOW PERSONALLY if they would/could help me, I had to jump through more hoops than a dog in a circus.

 

Anyway, just to make my first point again (so the Christard/Christ-troll can read it over), it doesn't matter that the Buy-Bull says this or that; it doesn't matter that the 'Mother Church' said this or that, nor any bishop or pope or whoever. The one thing you need to prove that Christianity is horse-shit is the FACT that there's more dissension, confusion, anger, spite, malice, envy and all the other stuff that your holy book says 'God' HATES, all within the walls of your churches. Not outside, not among the 'heathen', not among the 'atheists'... right there in your midst, churchgoer. There's nothing supernatural, nothing spiritually unifying, nothing overwhelming you all with the 'power' to live like Jesus. It's all a crock because your power-mad ancestors in the churches used stories about magical miracles to scare people into belief. Today, your preachers still use that holy-ghost crap to try and convince people of the veracity of their religion. Almost all of the competing, differing, disagreeing denominations use that line of thinking, and yet, every day that you all act like typical, normal, mortal, failing, selfish, prejudiced HUMAN animals and NOT like super-spirit-true-believer-soldiers, you prove over and over that it's all just psychological conditioning and a desire to meet your psycho-social and emotional needs.

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Here's another question: even if he did exist what makes him the son of God? He's not the only person in history alledged to have preformed miracles. He's not even the only person in the bible to do so, so what makes him divine? Cuase he said so?

 

It was all them thare miricles.

Don't cha know nathin ???

 

BTW.

That was a Christian answer.

 

Regards

DL

 

And isn't it great that the bishops of the 4thish century church decided that the bible you read would say Jesus was the son of god. If they had decided different gospels were "correct" then we wouldn't have this problem.

 

The Bishops or Constantine who presured the vote for it?

I tend to blame just him but then the Bishops cowtowed to him, so yep, they deserve some of the heat.

 

Regards

DL

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Here's another question: even if he did exist what makes him the son of God? He's not the only person in history alledged to have preformed miracles. He's not even the only person in the bible to do so, so what makes him divine? Cuase he said so?

 

Yep, this is the primary issue. Whether Jesus actually existed is an open question. Strictly speaking, if going on the evidence, one cannot really say one way or the other. There really are only a few ancient accounts that could potentially be referring to Jesus Christ, although some of them are suspected to have been tampered with (like Josephus' incredibly Christian account - Josephus was a Jew).

 

Even if Jesus did unquestionably exist, though, it proves nothing about Christianity. The important question is: was he divine? Did he truly perform miracles as claimed in the Bible? Did he really rise from the dead? Did he really ascend to heaven? None of the questions can be answered even if one can prove Jesus really existed.

 

If the Pauline epistles were written ~20 years after the death of Jesus, and the gospels were written ~40 years after the death of Jesus (by people OTHER than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), then it seems unlikely that the direct quotations of Jesus were even preserved accurately (if they were even preserved and not simply created post Jesus).

 

I always find the arguments for Jesus' existence dubious. Most of the articles seem to point to the same few historical accounts, and then at some point, suddenly make an illogical leap to "SEE! Jesus' existence is WELL SUPPORTED by OVERWHELMING evidence outside the Bible!" Often they say this after listing Josephus' account (that again, was most likely tampered with by later Christians).

 

Or, they say "it says Jesus existed in the Bible!" but that isn't evidence at all.

 

Another method - they'll point to very old manuscripts, some that have been dated to just a few years after when scholars believed Jesus was executed. Again, this proves nothing. It doesn't prove the alleged divinely inspired origin of the Bible. At the most, it shows the Bible is old. Thanks? Sometimes they will point to a historical account that seems to indicate very early Christians actually worshiped Jesus as a deity that was one with God (although again, the interpretation is suspect - you can look at the account yourself). Again, this proves nothing. Allow me to elucidate why with the following.

 

The Islamic faith was born almost immediately, after the alleged revelation from the angel Gabriel to Muhammad (and to the scribes, etc). People started worshipping how modern Muslims do (more or less), pretty much from the beginning. Does this then prove Islam? Does it show that everything in Islam is undoubtedly true? No. Not at all. As a Christian, you already don't believe in Islam, yet you're using arguments that you believe confirm the veracity of your religion that would "prove" the veracity of other religions in which you do not believe.

 

It doesn't work.

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Sorry to burst your bubble but even liberal scholars believe Jesus existed. It's only extreme whackos like Acharya S who deny his existence. Only brain dead people believe her. If you want to question the miracles that's one thing, but Jesus' existence is not in doubt. Even though you'd like to think it is.

Believing that there was once a human that we can label as "jesus" and who existed at some point roughly 2000 years ago is considerably different than believing that Jesus, the son of a virgin and a ghost, who was really the only son of the one and only Jewish god YHWH, came to live among humans, as a human, roughly 2000 years ago. Both are mythical figures but only one is within the realm of possibility. This is why your "liberal scholars" tend to gloss the point to get on with other arguments they wish to make.

 

mwc

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I don't know about this bogus claim. I'm sure BO doesn't think there is a historical Jesus who was the son of God...er...father of himself but God.

he's a liberal scholar. He can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he don't believe in that shit.

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