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Everything Can't Come From Nothing


lostman42
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Every damn time I try to talk with a fundy about the big bang they argue that,"everything can't come from nothing". So what should I say to that?

 

I'd say something along the lines of "that's true enough... so where did god come from?"

 

And when they say that he "always was" or some stupid shit like that... tell them that maybe the universe "always was". There's really no difference between their position and ours... except that they're inserted a magical sky-daddy into it. Fact is that none of us know where the universe came from.

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I always say there are several theories but in the end we are not and may never be absolutely sure, but I'm also quick to point out that neither do they, and adding a supernatural being to the equation only complicates the problem. Now, not only do we have to explain the origins of the universe, we also have to explain the supernatural entity.

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I should also add that I'm assuming they're talking about the origin of the universe or the origin of matter or energy, as the big bang is well supported by observable facts.

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Here's the kind of stuff I understand: Gotta make it real simple for me!! :grin:

 

For the 'bigger' mind: This is interesting.......I tried to understand.... :shrug:

 

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I'd talk to different people. That is unless I was satisfied with circular argument and chasing my tail.

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There's really no difference between their position and ours..

 

There's actually quite a few differences, including the fact that the universe exists for all to observe. It's like holding a rock in one hand and nothing, while invoking an invisible leprechaun in the other and asking the question which most likely always existed in some form.

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Every damn time I try to talk with a fundy about the big bang they argue that,"everything can't come from nothing". So what should I say to that?

 

If they are schooled in apologetics, it's best not to respond with anything, but instead just keep asking them hard questions. They are making the claim, not you, but if you start making claims too, you may find it cumbersome to meet your own burden of proof.

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Thanks for the words of wisdom guys. I feel an obligation to show these people how stupid they are. If people had challenged my beliefs more as a christian I would have wasted less time in the colt.

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There's really no difference between their position and ours..

 

There's actually quite a few differences, including the fact that the universe exists for all to observe. It's like holding a rock in one hand and nothing, while invoking an invisible leprechaun in the other and asking the question which most likely always existed in some form.

 

Well that's true in a sense. Scientists have all kinds of falsifiable theories as to how the universe came into existence. But to me there's always the question of "well what happened before the Big Bang?" I have no answer to that other than "I don't know... maybe time as we know it doesn't even apply to the question".

 

And that's essentially the same thing that a christian will come up with if you ask him where 'god' came from or what was here before 'god'.

 

Neither one of us has a useful answer.

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Every damn time I try to talk with a fundy about the big bang they argue that,"everything can't come from nothing". So what should I say to that?

How do they know there was ever a time when nothing existed for everything to come from? They don't. Since something is here, there's no reason to think that something didn't always exist in one form or another for something else to come from.

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About the only answer I have to the question for the origin of the universe is that I don't really know exactly how the universe originated - and neither does anyone else. Saying that god did it is a cop out.

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I usually answer, the big bang did not come from nothingness because something has to exist for an event to occur. While the big bang might explain an inflationary universe, it does not explain how that big bang happened. Something existed prior to the big bang for it to happen. We need to discover what that something was. The universe could always have existed because what the big bang created was 'space,' not the universe. Space inflated and expanded the universe.

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If they are schooled in apologetics, it's best not to respond with anything, but instead just keep asking them hard questions. They are making the claim, not you, but if you start making claims too, you may find it cumbersome to meet your own burden of proof.

 

That's a good idea indeed, as far as I can tell. Morontheists are well-brainwashed into asking cookie-cutter questions, but if you start asking them questions, they don't have anything aside from the goo' ol' change topic / evade / insult thing. Aaaaah, the number of morontheists I devastated by that one tactic...

 

"there's no evidence at all for evilution!!111!!!"

"what does evolutionary theory state? What are its central claims?"

"if evilution is true, why don't we see that..."

"attempt at evasion noted and ignored. what does evolutionary theory state? What are its central claims?"

"without evilution there are no morals, so how do you..."

"attempt at evasion noted and ignored. what does evolutionary theory state? What are its central claims?"

 

And so on, and so on. Depending on the thoroughness of their brainwashing it can take some time (which is the only problem with that approach - do you have enough time to pull it through?), but in the end you'll always get them :fdevil:

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Every damn time I try to talk with a fundy about the big bang they argue that,"everything can't come from nothing". So what should I say to that?

How do they know there was ever a time when nothing existed for everything to come from? They don't. Since something is here, there's no reason to think that something didn't always exist in one form or another for something else to come from.

 

...and that said, no decent scientist claims that there was nothing before the big bang. What big bang theory states is that all matter was once concentrated into a single infinitely-small point, generating infinite gravity and thus pissing on all laws of nature that we know so far. We're talking about a singularity, and within such a thing anything, literally anything, can happen. Maybe the invisible pink unicorn is slow-dancing with the flying spaghetti monster in that primal singularity, all the while shitting on jehoover, jebus and the wholly spook.

 

Big bang theory cannot explain, and does not try to, where this matter came from. In other words, all morontheists babbling "sumting can't cum from nutting!!!11!!oneoneone!!!!" really say "I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about". Don't tell me you're surprised :pureevil:

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Neither one of us has a useful answer.

 

I realize that, but my point is that at least one of us actually has something concrete to point to. The universe is demonstrable, while god is simply an idea. Thus, one of us at least starts from a point based in reality.

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What is "nothing" anyway? What if it's turtles all the way down? Causality may be folded back upon itself in some fashion. Perhaps the universe is self implied and self implying. :shrug:

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Every damn time I try to talk with a fundy about the big bang they argue that,"everything can't come from nothing". So what should I say to that?

The term "ex nihilo" (out of nothing) was invented in the second century by Christian theologians. It was the idea that God created something from nothing. It's more of a Christian idea than a scientific. Before Planck time, at the moment of Big Bang, no one has really a clue what was and what was not. Time and space (as we know it) did not exist, but it doesn't exclude the possibility of something else being there. In other words, it's likely that something (this universe) came from something else (another kind of thing that was not our universe). But "Ex Nihilo" is a Christian concept, so it's not a proper argument to be used to attack non-believe or science.

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And when they say that he "always was" or some stupid shit like that... tell them that maybe the universe "always was". There's really no difference between their position and ours... except that they're inserted a magical sky-daddy into it. Fact is that none of us know where the universe came from.

 

Wouldn't they respond to that with "No, the universe can't have always been. God can because god is omnipotent and exists outside of time and space."?

 

What's the comeback to that one?

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And when they say that he "always was" or some stupid shit like that... tell them that maybe the universe "always was". There's really no difference between their position and ours... except that they're inserted a magical sky-daddy into it. Fact is that none of us know where the universe came from.

 

Wouldn't they respond to that with "No, the universe can't have always been. God can because god is omnipotent and exists outside of time and space."?

 

What's the comeback to that one?

 

Maybe the universe or some precursor thereof exists/existed outside of space/time.

 

Time is inextricably linked with mass and motion- we know that from relativity. We don't know what existed before the Big Bang, but it's a pretty safe bet that mass, density, and motion were far off the scale of anything we can measure right now. As such, we don't know what the hell would have gone on, and we have no reason to believe that time as we know it would even apply.

 

We're speculating just like the christians. The only difference is that we have Steven Hawking types who can make educated guesses further back than most of us can comprehend.... whereas the christians just insert their invisible magic skydaddy into the story. In the end neither 'side' knows how the universe initially came into existence. But we have a hell of a lot better idea of what happened between the Big Bang and right now.

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Something from nothing? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd say a giant vacuum is something, and if a "God" created that, he sucks,,, literally.

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Christians seem to want science to be utterly infallible from the get-go or consider it a waste of time and something to mock.

 

On the one hand, we are continuing to research it and look for evidence, and have found some that supports it. On the other, there is missing information and we have to guess at what may have happened based on what we already know about physics and cosmology. Science doesn't pretend to know it all from the get-go, but has to build on things that have been proven and then try to piece other parts together. We can't create a big-bang in the lab, so we have to make educated guesses at what might have happened.

 

When that much mass is grouped together, Einstein says that time/speed should get quite odd. From an "outside" source (if such a thing were possible) it might appear to go kablooie quickly, but to the mass itself it may seem like it took eons due to the intense gravity from one side of the mass to the other. That was one argument I heard from a Creationist saying that it was short from God's perspective, but looks ancient to us. I'm not that well versed in the physics, so I'm just repeating what I heard.

 

But nothing in the story of Genesis gives any idea of actual physics or demonstrable reality, it is instead summed up by "God did it", which is the ignorant writings of people that knew almost nothing about science or physics and who were just guessing. This is why it also mentions a talking snake (no clue in Genesis about it being The Devil, just a snake).

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And when they say that he "always was" or some stupid shit like that... tell them that maybe the universe "always was". There's really no difference between their position and ours... except that they're inserted a magical sky-daddy into it. Fact is that none of us know where the universe came from.

 

Wouldn't they respond to that with "No, the universe can't have always been. God can because god is omnipotent and exists outside of time and space."?

 

What's the comeback to that one?

That would be special pleading.

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