andyjj Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 There is an interisting article in this months Scientific American about Quantum Theory. A suggestion is made that time and space (and Gravity) are emergent properties of quantum phenomena, and that possibly time and space don't exist at quantum scales Maybe thing the origin of the universe will become a bit clearer once there is a decent theory of quantum gravity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Every damn time I try to talk with a fundy about the big bang they argue that,"everything can't come from nothing". So what should I say to that? You tell them to explain the origins of god, and if they say god is timeless, you tell them if they are going to invoke that, then why couldn't the universe also be timeless? They can't have their cake and eat it to. The difference between christians and people of science is that science has evidence, and christians can only point at something and play the guessing game, often invoking god for the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 And when they say that he "always was" or some stupid shit like that... tell them that maybe the universe "always was". There's really no difference between their position and ours... except that they're inserted a magical sky-daddy into it. Fact is that none of us know where the universe came from. Wouldn't they respond to that with "No, the universe can't have always been. God can because god is omnipotent and exists outside of time and space."? What's the comeback to that one? Yep, that's Special Pleading, a logical fallacy. My reply would be... How do you know there isn't other non-supernatural forces that also exist outside of time and space? Any argument that can be made for the existance of God can be applied to the existance of a non-supernatural force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDogTolstoy Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Somethin cain't come frum nuthin' is pure black and white thinking - a trait which causes depression and is so common of our good Christiun brothers. To take a slightly different bent: Where I am sitting, you can't have something without nothing and you can't have nothing without something. They both go together and they both come out of each other. You can't have one without the other and that is simply the nature of the universe. A magnet has a north pole and a south pole just like reality has something and nothing. Saying something can't come from nothing is like saying Batman is battling vs. The forces of Evil and maybe the forces of evil will win and put everybody in slavery yada yada. Sometimes Batman wins, sometimes Evil wins. One could not win permanently because that would be the end of the story. i.e. Black defeats white and white vanishes from the field forever- that is nonsense! "Nothing" wins over "something" follows this kind of logic. But this type of thought is a rejection of the world as it actually is - and rejection of reality is another common psychological trait of our Christiun brothers. Music is the space between the notes --Claude Debussy Instead of playing what's there, try playing what's not there... -MILES DAVIS Having said all that, I find it utterly a waste of time to argue these points with my christiun bretheren and sisterens. They done made up they mind. Waiter, another Wild Turkey on the rocks please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 And when they say that he "always was" or some stupid shit like that... tell them that maybe the universe "always was". There's really no difference between their position and ours... except that they're inserted a magical sky-daddy into it. Fact is that none of us know where the universe came from. Wouldn't they respond to that with "No, the universe can't have always been. God can because god is omnipotent and exists outside of time and space."? What's the comeback to that one? Yep, that's Special Pleading, a logical fallacy. My reply would be... How do you know there isn't other non-supernatural forces that also exist outside of time and space? Any argument that can be made for the existance of God can be applied to the existance of a non-supernatural force. Or, "if someone can be outside of time and space, why can't something be outside of time and space?" That's basically the God argument they're making. Something, meaning something else than this world (matter, space, time, ...), exists, we know that. And what came before? Something else. ... Christians argument is "oh, not something else!!! It has to be SOMEONE, not SOMETHING." Well, my problem with that for someone to exist before time and space, then something--which is that someone--also must be able to exist. It's almost like they're asking how to create a TV picture without an actual TV. Or looking at a painting without canvas or color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 27, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2011 Everything can't come from nothing - nothing can come from nothing - everything must come from something. EXCEPTION: Magical entities that exist outside of reality. Outside of reality? That means NOT REAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Outside of reality? That means NOT REAL. Exactly. I've been thinking about that too. If something exists, it must exist in some kind of place and time. How can there be existence without a concept of space and time (of some sorts)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Outside of reality? That means NOT REAL. Exactly. I've been thinking about that too. If something exists, it must exist in some kind of place and time. How can there be existence without a concept of space and time (of some sorts)? One Christian who posted this website in the past tried to say "the 11th dimension" is where heaven/god is located. How does something occupy such a dimension, I wonder? Those dimensions are so negligible in this universe, from what I understand, that the idea of an alternate reality residing there seems like a huge, ad hoc, desperate stretch. Have you, Ouroboros, or anyone else in the regular 3 dimensions dealt with that particular kind of speculation from Christians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerScott Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 The first minute of this pretty much sums up my answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Have you, Ouroboros, or anyone else in the regular 3 dimensions dealt with that particular kind of speculation from Christians? Not directly. I always saw God, Heaven, Hell, spiritual world, etc, as extra-dimensional realms. For a flatlander, a 3D object will behave like a 4D object would behave to us. It could pop into existence (our 3D existence) out of the blue and disappear just as easy. Even if the extra dimensions seems to be small to us, they don't have to be "small" in their own existence. Anyway, if God did exist, I do think God would exist in one, or more, other dimensions. But that doesn't necessarily make an argument for God's existence. In my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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