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God Must Have Some Kind Of Special Plan For You


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Have you ever encountered this argument? I usually get it when:

 

1. Somebody is not cured in response to prayer

 

2. Somebody who is a believer stops believing and starts behaving as an unbeliever...

 

So God must have some kind of special plan for these people and we can't know what it is.

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Yes, God has a special plan but no one knows what it is. I think this useless teaching is just another way to try to demonstrate that God is actually loving, when we have a great deal of evidence that he is not.

 

God MUST be good. Therefore, when something bad happens, it must be some kind of plan that will ultimately work out for good. I think the apostle Paul originally came up with this nonsense. "All things work for good to those that love God.."

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Yep, God must have a special plan for all the children dying of starvation, sex slaves, orphans, cancer patients, war ravaged nations etc...of course they could all have hidden sin so they deserve it.

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It's sort of like "Double Secret Probation!" from the movie "Animal House." It's a test to see if they really, really, really, really, really have faith.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I never understood how the whole special plan thing jived with free will. If there is a 'plan' for everyone, then some of us are (pre)destined for hell. Where does the free will come in?

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Have you ever encountered this argument? [snipped]

So God must have some kind of special plan for these people and we can't know what it is.

I first heard the "Special Plan" rubbish right after I started attending church regularly, but I rejected it outright, bec. I found it nowhere in the Word. Yet, it was a litany all around me amongst fellow believers...sigh.:shrug:

 

I never understood how the whole special plan thing jived with free will. If there is a 'plan' for everyone, then some of us are (pre)destined for hell. Where does the free will come in?

Yah, also, if everything is predestined, right down to the microscopic details, then how can we fight evil... or even take meds or have an operation?:wacko:
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I have heard this, but I generally got 'god always answer our prayers, it's just he doesn't always give us the answer we're looking for.' How *fabulous*!

 

I guess it's better than being told that it's because of a lack of faith or due to sin in your life which is a favourite in relation to a failure to be healed....

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It's a way for people to create order in a random universe. It's really no different than claiming that everything happens for a reason.

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I first heard the "Special Plan" rubbish right after I started attending church regularly, but I rejected it outright, bec. I found it nowhere in the Word. Yet, it was a

litany all around me amongst fellow believers...sigh.:shrug:

Predestination is in the Bible:

 

Romans 8:29-30 declares: "For [those] whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, [those] whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (NASB).

 

Ephesians 1:3-6 teaches: 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love, having predestined us to adoptions as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved" (NASB).

 

This means, if it's true, that you are and we are exactly where we're supposed to be.

 

Yah, also, if everything is predestined, right down to the microscopic details, then how can we fight evil... or even take meds or have an operation?:wacko:

Correct. No true choice exists where everything follows a given and set path. Options would only be illusions. Options would exist, but no one could ever choose anything other than what they were supposed to from the start.

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I have heard this, but I generally got 'god always answer our prayers, it's just he doesn't always give us the answer we're looking for.' How *fabulous*!

And the Bible doesn't really teach that. The restriction of prayer answer is an addition by Christians because there are no answers. It's an excuse.

 

But this is what the Bible teaches:

 

"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him" (1 John 5:14-15).

 

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses" (Mark 11:24-16).

 

I guess it's better than being told that it's because of a lack of faith or due to sin in your life which is a favourite in relation to a failure to be healed....

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive" (Matthew 21:22).

 

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them" (Mark 11:24).

 

"But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord" (James 1:6-7).

 

So yeah, the Bible teaches that you can pray for anything, but you won't get it if you don't believe. That's it. The whole "you can't pray for anything" is just an excuse by Christians. And the word of faith movement that accuse people of not having faith, do this based on the Bible.

 

Here's the thing though, it doesn't work, simply because there's no one else on the other side of the phone line. It's a disconnected number. :HaHa:

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Here's the thing though, it doesn't work, simply because there's no one else on the other side of the phone line. It's a disconnected number. :HaHa:

 

god-hotline.jpg?w=175&h=165

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Have you ever encountered this argument? [snipped]

So God must have some kind of special plan for these people and we can't know what it is.

I first heard the "Special Plan" rubbish right after I started attending church regularly, but I rejected it outright, bec. I found it nowhere in the Word. Yet, it was a litany all around me amongst fellow believers...sigh.:shrug:

 

I never understood how the whole special plan thing jived with free will. If there is a 'plan' for everyone, then some of us are (pre)destined for hell. Where does the free will come in?

Yah, also, if everything is predestined, right down to the microscopic details, then how can we fight evil... or even take meds or have an operation?:wacko:

 

 

I've heard it jived that God knows ALL of the choices we could make and all of things things that would happen no matter what choice you make. For example, if there is a fork in the road God knows what would happen no matter which fork you chose, but you are able to decide which one to do. I don't know how that works with omniscience but that is a pretty interesting explanation, to say the least.

 

 

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I've heard it jived that God knows ALL of the choices we could make and all of things things that would happen no matter what choice you make. For example, if there is a fork in the road God knows what would happen no matter which fork you chose, but you are able to decide which one to do. I don't know how that works with omniscience but that is a pretty interesting explanation, to say the least.

So what would happen if God knew that I would pick road A, but I picked road B instead? :scratch:

 

Would that mean that God knew that I would pick road B before I even picked road B? So what if I picked road A instead when he knew I would pick road B?

 

Knowing the future decisions, to me at least, sounds like knowing the next number in a series of numbers generated by an algorithm. The algorithm will always create that number at that given point (in time and space). Even if the series of numbers are infinite, they're still generated by this algorithm with a predictable outcome. It doesn't make the algorithm "free" to "choose" any other number than it always do at that point.

 

Some philosophers argue that God does not know the specifics of our actions, but knows the general outcomes. For instance, God would know that I will be in (let's say) New York by Saturday. But he doesn't know the exact decision I will make to get there. I might go by train, air, walk, or drive. That's up to me. But he knows that I will be there for sure.

 

That presents a problem to me, because at what level does God know these things? Why does he know I'm going to New York, but no how? Why does he know that I will be in New York by Saturday, but not know if I'm in an airplane, halfway there, by 11 AM tomorrow? And why should it be just "New York by tomorrow" and not just a higher level "In Europe, somewhere, for some time, approximately 10 years from now"? Every event and decision, however large, consists of many smaller decisions along the way. Being able to know macro events but not micro events, just doesn't jive to me.

 

Well, that's my opinion.

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the whole idea that god has a plan for you is a load of rubish. is nothing more than a subconcious need to maintain control over the situation around you. even if a desision turns out bad compared to the original plan they will still manfacture some inturpritation of why its suposed to help them in their livesin fear that somthing could go wrong under a devine plan.

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I've heard it jived that God knows ALL of the choices we could make and all of things things that would happen no matter what choice you make. For example, if there is a fork in the road God knows what would happen no matter which fork you chose, but you are able to decide which one to do. I don't know how that works with omniscience but that is a pretty interesting explanation, to say the least.

So what would happen if God knew that I would pick road A, but I picked road B instead? :scratch:

 

Would that mean that God knew that I would pick road B before I even picked road B? So what if I picked road A instead when he knew I would pick road B?

 

Knowing the future decisions, to me at least, sounds like knowing the next number in a series of numbers generated by an algorithm. The algorithm will always create that number at that given point (in time and space). Even if the series of numbers are infinite, they're still generated by this algorithm with a predictable outcome. It doesn't make the algorithm "free" to "choose" any other number than it always do at that point.

 

Some philosophers argue that God does not know the specifics of our actions, but knows the general outcomes. For instance, God would know that I will be in (let's say) New York by Saturday. But he doesn't know the exact decision I will make to get there. I might go by train, air, walk, or drive. That's up to me. But he knows that I will be there for sure.

 

That presents a problem to me, because at what level does God know these things? Why does he know I'm going to New York, but no how? Why does he know that I will be in New York by Saturday, but not know if I'm in an airplane, halfway there, by 11 AM tomorrow? And why should it be just "New York by tomorrow" and not just a higher level "In Europe, somewhere, for some time, approximately 10 years from now"? Every event and decision, however large, consists of many smaller decisions along the way. Being able to know macro events but not micro events, just doesn't jive to me.

 

Well, that's my opinion.

 

I dunno man, a lot of math works out to chaos. Have you ever worked with some upper level differential equations? You can have equations that model systems perfectly and get infinite answers for a certain solution. So If I had a differential equation that modeled your behavior, I would have a "plan" for you, but you could do any number of things. I know all the possible things, but I don't know which one the physical system will enact.

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I dunno man, a lot of math works out to chaos.

I've done some stuff in chaos theory. Like Mandlebrots for instance. It's deterministic chaos. Meaning. If I use a specific area and resolution, I can, and you can, reproduce the exact same image each time. Chaos is not random in that sense.

 

Have you ever worked with some upper level differential equations?

Yes.

 

You can have equations that model systems perfectly and get infinite answers for a certain solution.

And? And infinite regression of a deterministic series is not the same as random.

 

Run the same model with the exact same parameters and you'll get the same answer. Math is not random with different outcomes each time you run it.

 

Math is actually the perfect example of why free will doesn't jive with determinism (or prescience).

 

If you run an algorithm and get an answer, does that mean the algorithm had free will? Is free will the same as an algorithm? Is 1+1=2 an example of how the operator plus choose to answer 2 when it was given two 1's? But it could have chosen any other number, but we know it always will chose 2.

 

So If I had a differential equation that modeled your behavior, I would have a "plan" for you, but you could do any number of things. I know all the possible things, but I don't know which one the physical system will enact.

At what level would you know what I would do, and at what level would you not know? What resolution would you have?

 

Let's say my decision tree was based on the Mandelbrot algorithm. How many decimals would God use when he looked at me? Super course at one decimal, or finer resolution with 10 decimals, or 100 decimals?

 

The word "omni" in "omniscient" means "all" or "everything," not "some" or "partial". If God is omniscient and God's wisdom is infinite, then God's omniscient resolution of my chaotic decision tree would be infinite, not a finite number of decimals. In other words, God would not know some things but not other things, he should know ALL things, to infinite precision.

 

Perhaps we should call God's omniscience something else, like semi-omniscient or pseudo-omniscient, if he doesn't know all things there is to know and not even infinite.

 

Here's the crux. God is said to know everything, but free will must allow God to not know everything. So there is a clearly logical conflict between knowledge of type "all" and "some".

 

We can of course make that definition. "Omniscient" meaning as a very skilled chess player, who plans his moves carefully, and know statistically that the outcomes will be in his favor. He knows he has to do a gambit to win the game, and he is confident he will win, but he can only know to 99% certainty. The last 1% is left to us to randomly surprise him.

 

I played in high-school against a national competitor in chess (in Sweden). He beat me most of the time, of course, but a few times I did win. The reason was that I did not play by the set formulas and rules. Most chess games follow very similar moves because certain moves have a better probability of gaining dominance and eventually win. But I didn't play that way. I change strategy mid-game. I tried new things. I put him at unease. And I managed to win a couple of times because he couldn't predict. He thought he could. He was certain I would make the most common move in a given situation, but when I didn't, he would have to think for once instead of just following a pattern.

 

Anyway, perhaps God's "omniscience" is more akin the chess player. He knows with a certainty that the most likely outcome is such-and-such, but he doesn't know the particulars, and he can't be 100% sure.

 

Did you see the Adjustment Bureau? Good movie. One word: ripples.

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Perhaps omniscient is not what God is. Maybe it is just the word used by primitive peoples because to them their God was relatively "omniscient". If God were to just be a higher dimensional being, that is "in our image", than he wouldn't be infallible but to us, he sure would seem to be.

 

Not that I buy any of that. I'm just trying my best to justify something that is clearly incorrect.

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And? And infinite regression of a deterministic series is not the same as random.

 

Run the same model with the exact same parameters and you'll get the same answer. Math is not random with different outcomes each time you run it.

 

Math is actually the perfect example of why free will doesn't jive with determinism (or prescience).

 

If you run an algorithm and get an answer, does that mean the algorithm had free will? Is free will the same as an algorithm? Is 1+1=2 an example of how the operator plus choose to answer 2 when it was given two 1's? But it could have chosen any other number, but we know it always will chose 2.

 

 

And I am not sure that "randomness" and "free will" are necessarily the same thing. If we make decisions that are based on free will, I don't think it has to be random, just within an infinite set of parameters given to us by the general solution of our equation through this universe.

 

 

 

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