JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Since you asked for an NT reference, I think Rom 1:22 might be the best fit for what you're looking for. It seems like the author is referring to non-Christian or unbelievers in the author's specific God. Perhaps you have a different interpretation of it, but, still, this is probably the closest. Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools ... Yes, thanks, this must be the best one. Paul seems to be focusing on the historical problem of man refusing to seek after the obvious Creator God, while instead preferring to create and worship his own clay idols. As you recall, this nonsense is what Abraham was born into. (I'm guessing that God intervened here ... part of His love, grace, etc.) So, this is all part of the truth that man has always been a spiritual idiot. Things haven't changed .... 10 major religions ... thousands of cults, sects, etc. But, is it fair to blame the Creator God for all of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Paul seems to be focusing on the historical problem of man refusing to seek after the obvious Creator God, while instead preferring to create and worship his own clay idols. As you recall, this nonsense is what Abraham was born into. Unfortunately, I think Christianity is the same kind of nonsense. (I'm guessing that God intervened here ... part of His love, grace, etc.) So, this is all part of the truth that man has always been a spiritual idiot. Or, organizational religions with holy books mainlining the belief is from Satan, and the real spirituality is the individual one. Don't pray in public... Things haven't changed .... 10 major religions ... thousands of cults, sects, etc. That's right. And something like 30,000 denominations of Christians. But, is it fair to blame the Creator God for all of this? Isn't your God in full control? Isn't he omnipotent and omniscient? So how can you not blame him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 LivingLife, Huge job to comment on all of this, but I've picked out a few obvious errors. The battles are historical or probably so but some the Israelites won, some they lost. No sign of the hand of God there. God chose the smallest and weakest nation to be His chosen people. He let them lose some battles on their own (sometimes as a chastisement). Then He proved His powers by miraculously winning others for them. If this isn't obvious, I don't what is ... and this reveals the credibility of the writer! May we hasten back to the "man is a spiritual idiot" theme? The predictions are evidently written after the event The writer evidently is into wishful thinking. Proof is lacking absolutely everywhere. Paul ... He believed that Jesus was man, not God and a suffering obedient servant of God, not God incarnate. Total nonsense. Like to see 20+ verses where Paul says Jesus is equal to Father God, is the Creator, is the Sustainer now, is the Giver of eternal life, etc. etc.? Jesus' failed messianic mission Jesus shed His blood for the sins of mankind that whoever could believe this, etc. The New T is no evidence for God and history is evidence against. Every day, God performs thousands of miracles as evidence. Why haven't YOU seen any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 You do realize we do not view the babble as anything more than myth. You do also realize we are ex-christians and we probably know more individually about your babble and faith than your congregation combined. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If I may be bold enough to interject here. As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality. Therefore scripture, debate, discussion, and concepts such as God, Christ, salvation, and sin are completely useless because all rely on your above listed hindrances. Not only are you deliberately hindering yourself by speaking, you are preventing those whom you have lured into discussion from achieving true spirituality. For shame, tempting all these people away from spirituality with your words and arguments and concepts. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If I may be bold enough to interject here. As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality. Therefore scripture, debate, discussion, and concepts such as God, Christ, salvation, and sin are completely useless because all rely on your above listed hindrances. Not only are you deliberately hindering yourself by speaking, you are preventing those whom you have lured into discussion from achieving true spirituality. For shame, tempting all these people away from spirituality with your words and arguments and concepts. Do as I say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeasabird Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 the horrible crime of not believing and being related to a woman who ate a piece of fruit. Incidentally, I wasn't trying to lead you on with my question. I just hadn't ever heard that Christianity could work without the OT. Everything was PERFECT in the Garden, and between God and Adam & Eve. Then God says, "Just obey me in this ONE little insignificant thing." I.E. "It's testing time, guys. Let's test that free will that I gave to you." Next, BOTH Adam & Eve purposely disobeyed (rebelled against) their Creator, Best Buddy, etc. From that point on, they were garbage ... sorry for being so blunt. I'm trying to be blunt in explaining the powerful revelation that I have about this truth. So, the actions of man's representatives before God were NOT so insignificant as people think. Notice the similarity between this and God's "chosen people" being man's representatives later. The free will thing just doesn't work, period. So, why did God really want to prove this to everybody? I have no idea. But, His next step (in the new covenant) is just to choose for Himself who He wants in heaven. And the Bible explains WHO they are and WHY them. The bottom line is ... The Holy God is just not going to have sinful, rebellious, etc. people in heaven with Him for all eternity. This certainly makes sense to me ... how about you? I guess next best thing to revelation knowledge is intelligence and thoughtful reasoning. Yes, I didn't really understand what you meant about NT w/o OT. Under critical examination the A&E story is a joke. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/original-sin.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If I may be bold enough to interject here. As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality. Therefore scripture, debate, discussion, and concepts such as God, Christ, salvation, and sin are completely useless because all rely on your above listed hindrances. Not only are you deliberately hindering yourself by speaking, you are preventing those whom you have lured into discussion from achieving true spirituality. For shame, tempting all these people away from spirituality with your words and arguments and concepts. Do as I say.... Edit for Rodney's sake: Didn't you learn all of that spirituality from someone? Does this not suggest DIFFERENTIATION, or did I miss something in all the quiet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Edit for Rodney's sake: Didn't you learn all of that spirituality from someone? Does this not suggest DIFFERENTIATION, or did I miss something in all the quiet? It looks like you make no sense at all, so I guess you're closer to a revelation than a rational reason in your argument. The whole "revelation over rational reason" makes me think that perhaps the Christian God is exactly the way Christians want him. Totally ridiculous and nonsensical, just like a revelation over reason should be. The Christian God doesn't make sense because he's not supposed to make sense. He's supposed to be a ludicrous idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Edit for Rodney's sake: Didn't you learn all of that spirituality from someone? Does this not suggest DIFFERENTIATION, or did I miss something in all the quiet? It looks like you make no sense at all, so I guess you're closer to a revelation than a rational reason in your argument. The whole "revelation over rational reason" makes me think that perhaps the Christian God is exactly the way Christians want him. Totally ridiculous and nonsensical, just like a revelation over reason should be. The Christian God doesn't make sense because he's not supposed to make sense. He's supposed to be a ludicrous idea. I digress, don't want to be accused of hijacking. Rod understands what I am saying, but is too egotistical or too spiritual to respond....I can't figure out which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I digress, don't want to be accused of hijacking. Rod understands what I am saying, but is too egotistical or too spiritual to respond....I can't figure out which. It's a revelation, so it doesn't have to make sense. Just believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I digress, don't want to be accused of hijacking. Rod understands what I am saying, but is too egotistical or too spiritual to respond....I can't figure out which. It's a revelation, so it doesn't have to make sense. Just believe. Since you are pressing Ultimately, there is no way to be totally gracefilled perhaps except through silence or death. Whether it be Christianiaty or whatever Rod has LEARNED, I think this speaks to a separation between us being God or some walking Awareness, whatever. And I think this "revelation" of logic speaks more for Christianity than it does some perpetual Void Oneness of walking quiet relationship with the Universe BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 ... I'm trying to be blunt in explaining the powerful revelation that I have about this truth... Uh-oh. It seems yet another prophet has wandered into our midst. Pay proper respect, people. (Of course, it might require a move into the Lion's Den to really do it properly.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 I guess it comes down to what is borne out in your heart. If God is revealed through creation, then God is already in you. You are that creation. All you need to do is look within. To look to the words of those others as authoritative is to deny your own 'word of God'; i.e., your own heart. the Bible gets in the way of spirituality. Religion gets in the way. You look to it for what is already yours, thus denying it to yourself. The Bible has an awful lot to say about the sinful condition of man's heart. Maybe you just don't see this all around you. So, a lack of understanding of this is your weak point (where you are deceived). And let's not forget that all of this has to do with man compared to a perfect, sinless, Holy God. Compared with this perfect Creator God, we are all total garbage (especially our hearts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 And I think this "revelation" of logic speaks more for Christianity than it does some perpetual Void Oneness of walking quiet relationship with the Universe BS. It has not been revealed to you yet, that's why you can't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Compared with this perfect Creator God, we are all total garbage (especially our hearts). Correction: perfect garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 And I think this "revelation" of logic speaks more for Christianity than it does some perpetual Void Oneness of walking quiet relationship with the Universe BS. It has not been revealed to you yet, that's why you can't see it. Ahh, thank you, I missed it....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ahh, thank you, I missed it....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I guess it comes down to what is borne out in your heart. If God is revealed through creation, then God is already in you. You are that creation. All you need to do is look within. To look to the words of those others as authoritative is to deny your own 'word of God'; i.e., your own heart. the Bible gets in the way of spirituality. Religion gets in the way. You look to it for what is already yours, thus denying it to yourself. The Bible has an awful lot to say about the sinful condition of man's heart. Maybe you just don't see this all around you. So, a lack of understanding of this is your weak point (where you are deceived). And let's not forget that all of this has to do with man compared to a perfect, sinless, Holy God. Compared with this perfect Creator God, we are all total garbage (especially our hearts). And doesn't this response underscore the rest of what I said about how religion gets in the way of spirituality? You quote a verse to dismiss the good that in fact is in others everywhere. You shut out its light because you do not listen with your heart, nor see with eyes that see love. Your religion has blinded you. Your mind is darkened by your reasoning; by your devotion to your religious doctrines. "He who has eyes to see, let him see. He who has ears to hear..." What on earth do you think that means? You have ears and eyes and yet you block them with your religion. I am not claiming we are faultless, nor perfect in love. But we do have it, and it does exist. And why shouldn't it? You come into this thread to say we need to be spiritual, yet you show none. How can you when you are blind? Go home and tell your mother her heart is wicked and full of garbage if you are so full of darkness. I love what Jesus has to say in the Gospel of Thomas (v. 70). It applies to this quite poignantly, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] destroy you." Of course, you would reject those words because there is no good in us, according to your darkened imagination, hiding itself behind your religious beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Everything was PERFECT in the Garden Yes, including the perfection of man having his perfect right to exercise his free will. What's so bad about that? If a man has no free will ... he is of no value, he is merely a mindless robot. God created humans with the free will to believe in Him, worship Him, etc., or not to. Man tests his created things that have no free will to fail its testing. God tests His created people who have free will to fail their testing. Can’t compare the two. Yes, you're correct, God could have created perfect robots to live with Him in heaven. Lucifer (Satan) is not living with God in heaven any longer. But, he and his evil spirits live with us. Whoopie. The spiritual reasoning of a man who is garbage is just plain garbage (and I’m not talking about your garbage man). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 John Zain Are you here to get help deconverting or do you think perhaps you can save a soul or two here? If it is the latter, you are wasting your time but I guess we can have a bit of fun with your fairy tale if you are serious. I'm here to basically answer questions ... because some of you have been told things which are not correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 John Zain Are you here to get help deconverting or do you think perhaps you can save a soul or two here? If it is the latter, you are wasting your time but I guess we can have a bit of fun with your fairy tale if you are serious. I'm here to basically answer questions ... because some of you have been told things which are not correct. That is correct. What we were told was not correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality. Therefore scripture, debate, discussion, and concepts such as God, Christ, salvation, and sin are completely useless because all rely on your above listed hindrances. Not only are you deliberately hindering yourself by speaking, you are preventing those whom you have lured into discussion from achieving true spirituality. For shame, tempting all these people away from spirituality with your words and arguments and concepts. You're missing the point ... all of my "words and arguments and concepts" are from the Bible. Because, being human, I began by being like all humans ... a spiritual idiot. How can anyone claim to know about SPIRITUAL stuff unless they're convinced God told them the stuff? HUH? HOW? Please explain. Razbeerishlee sega? That's Bulgarian for "Do You Understand Now?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I digress, don't want to be accused of hijacking. Rod understands what I am saying, but is too egotistical or too spiritual to respond....I can't figure out which. Why are you so worried about me and what I have to say about anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Yes, including the perfection of man having his perfect right to exercise his free will. What's so bad about that? Obviously his ability to make perfect choices were not so perfect. If a man has no free will ... he is of no value, he is merely a mindless robot. So the ability to choose is a matter of more perfection than the ability to choose right. God created humans with the free will to believe in Him, worship Him, etc., or not to. In other words, perfection and good is matter of freedom, not a matter of right or correct. To choose right is not what is good. To be able to choose right or wrong is what is good. In other words, sinning is an expression of being perfect. We are exercising our freedom of will, which is the idea of perfection and good. Man tests his created things that have no free will to fail its testing. God tests His created people who have free will to fail their testing. Can’t compare the two. "Fail" is to me a word that something did not work according to plan. If all the things are within God's plan, then the "failure" was planned and a success. The "failure" was designed and perfect. Yes, you're correct, God could have created perfect robots to live with Him in heaven. Or... God is not that hard-ass absolute moral-bitch that Christianity makes him out to be. Perhaps the perfect God is more tolerant and accepting than the hateful God Christians believe in. Lucifer (Satan) is not living with God in heaven any longer. Right. But Satan was Satan when he lived in Heaven. Read Job. But, he and his evil spirits live with us. Whoopie. More in you than me. That has been revealed to me. The spiritual reasoning of a man who is garbage is just plain garbage (and I’m not talking about your garbage man). Since revelation is above reasoning, I guess you know this based on revelation and not reasoning. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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