Where'd the magick go?

[aynalhub]

I was reading in a post about the age of the gospels vs. the destruction of the Jewish temple (of course, we know only paul's writings are older than the temple destruction) and it hit me...

 

I was raised to believe that god's presence really was in the temple, that the priests that went in there could very well die, and that when jesus died, the veil to the holy of holies was ripped and the presence of god made available to all.

 

But even if I accepted that there really was sparkly god-air floating around in there, how do I reconcile the fact that for 40 years after Jesus' crucifixion, the temple remained in use? If the veil was suddenly ripped (nothing a person could physically do, this isn't paper), and god left, wouldn't the priests, like, I dunno, notice or something?

 

Wouldn't the priests have realized that the magic was gone and converted to the jesus cult immediately, or at least stopped using the temple, or maybe even have mentioned it at some point? How could it be business as usual for another 4 decades?

 

I would love to hear a believer's explanation of this, at least one who believes the gospels are accurate.

[Foxy Methoxy]

I'm no believer, but I think the common belief among Christians is that the priests were decieved by Satan and no longer worshipping God properly to notice He was no longer in their temple.

[Ouroboros]

Wouldn't the priests have realized that the magic was gone and converted to the jesus cult immediately, or at least stopped using the temple, or maybe even have mentioned it at some point? How could it be business as usual for another 4 decades?

100669[/snapback]

Damn good point! If God was in the Tempel before the veil tore, then they should have noticed his absence after. It's an extremely good question.

[aynalhub]

I'm no believer, but I think the common belief among Christians is that the priests were decieved by Satan and no longer worshipping God properly to notice He was no longer in their temple.

100674[/snapback]

[aynalhub]

sorry 'bout the blank post, my damn back button is so touchy on this laptop. anyway, i was going to thank the new testament for those watery arguments...

 

someone can always be said to be magically blinded or magically clued in to something that doesn't make sense! just goes to show there's nothing to it in the first place!

[Foxy Methoxy]

But it's very convenient every time they run into something they can't explain.

[Celsus]

I was reading in a post about the age of the gospels vs. the destruction of the Jewish temple (of course, we know only paul's writings are older than the temple destruction) and it hit me...

 

I was raised to believe that god's presence really was in the temple, that the priests that went in there could very well die, and that when jesus died, the veil to the holy of holies was ripped and the presence of god made available to all.

 

But even if I accepted that there really was sparkly god-air floating around in there, how do I reconcile the fact that for 40 years after Jesus' crucifixion, the temple remained in use? If the veil was suddenly ripped (nothing a person could physically do, this isn't paper), and god left, wouldn't the priests, like, I dunno, notice or something?

 

Wouldn't the priests have realized that the magic was gone and converted to the jesus cult immediately, or at least stopped using the temple, or maybe even have mentioned it at some point? How could it be business as usual for another 4 decades?

 

I would love to hear a believer's explanation of this, at least one who believes the gospels are accurate.

100669[/snapback]

 

 

There you go using that carnal mind and earthly logic again......die heretic

[TruthWarrior]

I'm too lazy now to check, but didnt Josephus report that the (I guess replaced??!) curtain was ripped when the temple was defiled & destroyed in 70ad? Or some big spiritual bang or trumpet sounded. Can't remember.

 

Maybe I'll look it up while I'm downloading Postal 2

[TruthWarrior]

Ok here's Josephus' description and only mention I could find of the mighty fine godly curtain from Antiquities of the Jews Book 25, CH. 5:

 

But then this house, as it was divided into two parts, the inner part was lower than the appearance of the outer, and had golden doors of fifty-five cubits altitude, and sixteen in breadth; but before these doors there was a veil of equal largeness with the doors. It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful. Nor was this mixture of colors without its mystical interpretation, but was a kind of image of the universe; for by the scarlet there seemed to be enigmatically signified fire, by the fine flax the earth, by the blue the air, and by the purple the sea; two of them having their colors the foundation of this resemblance; but the fine flax and the purple have their own origin for that foundation, the earth producing the one, and the sea the other. This curtain had also embroidered upon it all that was mystical in the heavens, excepting that of the [twelve] signs, representing living creatures.

 

Funny the next part of his description of the temple takes you inside, to the innermost magic room:

 

When any persons entered into the temple, its floor received them. This part of the temple therefore was in height sixty cubits, and its length the same; whereas its breadth was but twenty cubits: but still that sixty cubits in length was divided again, and the first part of it was cut off at forty cubits, and had in it three things that were very wonderful and famous among all mankind, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar of incense. Now the seven lamps signified the seven planets; for so many there were springing out of the candlestick. Now the twelve loaves that were upon the table signified the circle of the zodiac and the year; but the altar of incense, by its thirteen kinds of sweet-smelling spices with which the sea replenished it, signified that God is the possessor of all things that are both in the uninhabitable and habitable parts of the earth, and that they are all to be dedicated to his use. But the inmost part of the temple of all was of twenty cubits. This was also separated from the outer part by a veil. In this there was nothing at all. It was inaccessible and inviolable, and not to be seen by any; and was called the Holy of Holies.

 

 

In War of the Jews Book 6, CH. 5 tells of how false prophets kept people from leaving the city by giving them hope that they would win the day. Also many miraculous signs preceded Jerusalem's destruction. Yet it all did little to convince the people and their leaders that they were about to be slaughtered. Josephus explains why:

 

Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

 

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

 

So like Iraqi forces in Baghdad or Hitler's men in Berlin before it was bombed in our wars, they get convinced by pride and propagandists and leaders that all is well, despite overwellming evidence to the contrary. Even from a realistic perspective, with all those magic miracles being baloney, it's still be pretty clear that Rome would come a marching against the city and they'd get annihilated.

 

Now check this out:

 

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

 

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city.

 

However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

 

Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

 

I'm thinking maybe this Jesus fellow became part of the popular Jesus tale that we followed, mixed in with all the other myths and tales that make him up:

 

Matthew 11:20, Jesus' woes on unrepentant cities:

 

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

 

A few woes later, in Matthew chapter 23. Our Jesus makes quite a passionate rant of 7 woes against the teachers of the law and pharisees, ending with this:

 

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

 

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

 

Luke has 6 of a shorter version of the same or simular woes, ending with this again:

 

"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

 

The Book o' Revelation has tons of woes too, specificly against the sinful Jerusalem. Preterist christians believe that Revelation is all about the fall of Jerusalem in 70ad. I think it was too. Makes a whole lot of sense that way. Most likely written after 70ad, but they could have been good guessers. If it were written before 70ad, they could simply figure "god is pissed at our sinful (anti-government) city. army will surround city. city and temple will be destroyed. um... utopian city falls out of sky and we win! Yay!".

 

Josephus' writings are at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html

[aynalhub]

thanks so much truth warrior! i'm gonna check that josephus out in greek just for kicks.

 

jesus did become a magnet for any popular mysterious stories, didn't he? and with the gospels being composed/compiled between 60-90 AD, it would be downright embarrassing if nothing about the temple destruction got tossed in between all the Q ramblings.

 

thanks again for the research.