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I work in prison (not jail). I work with the convicted doing serious time.

 

I would love to hear a christian explanation to these true stories.

 

#1 Parent guts their kid because the kid ate their crack. They did it to get their crack back. They gutted their kid alive to get their crack back. Let that sink in.

 

#2 Convict runs out of gas so they walk to the nearest gas station. They find mama filling her car. They shoot mama in the head in front of the kids. Kick the kids out and take the car and take it.

 

#3 Honestly, I thought twice and deleted this one because its so bad I wouldn't want to put it in your head. Some things stick with you

 

Really.

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I work in prison (not jail). I work with the convicted doing serious time.

 

I would love to hear a christian explanation to these true stories.

 

#1 Parent guts their kid because the kid ate their crack. They did it to get their crack back. They gutted their kid alive to get their crack back. Let that sink in.

 

#2 Convict runs out of gas so they walk to the nearest gas station. They find mama filling her car. They shoot mama in the head in front of the kids. Kick the kids out and take the car and take it.

 

#3 Honestly, I thought twice and deleted this one because its so bad I wouldn't want to put it in your head. Some things stick with you

 

Really.

I am not a Christian, but not sure what you are asking when you ask for a "Christian explanation". Are you seriously looking for yet another Christian rationalization of why God permits a child to be gutted or a mother to be murdered in front of her children? I mean, they will just say the same, tired old things. Sometimes we don't understand God's higher ways, he's weaving a beautiful tapestry that looks chaotic from what we can see but if only we could see the lovely pattern on the other side, you have to remember that this is a fallen world, yadda, yadda.

 

Pardon me while I call Ruth on the Great White Telephone.

 

Please don't invite more of this.

 

Actually it's not hard to understand that undisciplined, drug-addled, hormone crazed adolescents often do horrible things to themselves and to others. And if you don't believe there's a loving, caring god who should Do Something about it, you won't waste time being confused, or hating him, or tap dancing to defend him. And you won't blame Satan, either. You might actually even try to change society in ways that get at the root problems.

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Im just sharing a dose of reality they like to deny Bob. I guess Im unloading it for me too, but I think you may be right. I was just showing who society flushes down the toilet and likes to forget about. Some of us still deal with them every day.

 

The true power of hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil- is internal peace and letting what disturbs us die. I guess we are our brothers keeper

 

But he works all things for good.

 

Have a good weekend man

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The Christian explanation, "It's the debil."

 

or "Free Will"

 

or "It's all part of God's plan."

 

or "God works in mysterious ways."

 

or "Fill in the blank with the christianese nonsense phrase of the day."

 

But, it doesn't matter anyway, because "God called the victims home." And the perpetrators will join them after the Holy Spirit convicts them and they say the Sinner's Prayer. That happens a lot in prisons, or so I hear.

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Hey, it's been a while since I've been here. I had a busy spring and when things eased up, I was waiting for an interesting discussion to jump into. So, here it is.

 

OK, I get it, you want me to say that there is no such thing as evil and that these are simply cases of atoms smashing into each other in some kind of weird way, right? I mean, given materialism, that's really all it is, right? No free will, just events causing other events in the grand equation. OK, got it.

 

LNC

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Hey, it's been a while since I've been here. I had a busy spring and when things eased up, I was waiting for an interesting discussion to jump into. So, here it is.

 

OK, I get it, you want me to say that there is no such thing as evil and that these are simply cases of atoms smashing into each other in some kind of weird way, right? I mean, given materialism, that's really all it is, right? No free will, just events causing other events in the grand equation. OK, got it.

 

LNC

 

No, the OP wants you to justify why a loving "god" would let such inconceivable horror to happen. Please don't play the free will card either, because I know you liken "god" to a "heavenly father" and like most fathers, given the ability to stop a terrible event from happening, would use that ability to stop the event without a second thought. It doesn't have anything to do with free will.

 

LNC, no excuse you can possibly conceive of would ever convince me that a powerful loving "god" would sit idle by and let something like that happen. I wouldn't even debate it with you because you're so stupid.

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No, the OP wants you to justify why a loving "god" would let such inconceivable horror to happen. Please don't play the free will card either, because I know you liken "god" to a "heavenly father" and like most fathers, given the ability to stop a terrible event from happening, would use that ability to stop the event without a second thought. It doesn't have anything to do with free will.

 

LNC, no excuse you can possibly conceive of would ever convince me that a powerful loving "god" would sit idle by and let something like that happen. I wouldn't even debate it with you because you're so stupid.

I don't see in the OP what you see. It asks Christians to explain these events; however, the burden is not removed from the atheist or agnostic either. In fact, explaining why these events are wrong is not removed from the atheist or agnostic either. What I mean is why they are any more wrong than choosing a flavor of ice cream that you don't like. If these are not really evil events, then I'm not sure what the point of the OP is.

 

Can you tell me why free will cannot be a part of the explanation? Is it because you have evidence that free will doesn't exist or do you have reason to believe that it cannot be involved in the explanation? If so, please make your case.

 

You say that the heavenly father, like most fathers, given the opportunity, would stop terrible events from happening. However, in one of these stories, it is a father who is ripping the guts out of his kid. Yet, to say that God would stop these events from happening simply because you posit that most fathers would stop a terrible event from happening is not an argument. First, who says that most fathers would stop a terrible event from happening if they could. That is a vague statement without any evidence to support it. If God stopped all terrible events from happening, we would become automatons. We don't know how our actions are going to effect the course of history. When should God intercede? Should he stop the procreation process that would give birth to the future mass murderer? Should he turn the knife or the bullets into soft rubber? I suspect that even if he did that, the provocateur would continue to seek other means to commit the crime.

 

Finally, if you don't want to debate with me because you think me stupid, then I suggest that you cease posting to me as that is going to stir up a debate. However, if you think you are smarter than me, then please explain how you know that free will doesn't exist. I will be interested in your automated reply.

 

LNC

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I don't see in the OP what you see. It asks Christians to explain these events; however, the burden is not removed from the atheist or agnostic either. In fact, explaining why these events are wrong is not removed from the atheist or agnostic either. What I mean is why they are any more wrong than choosing a flavor of ice cream that you don't like. If these are not really evil events, then I'm not sure what the point of the OP is.

 

Can you tell me why free will cannot be a part of the explanation? Is it because you have evidence that free will doesn't exist or do you have reason to believe that it cannot be involved in the explanation? If so, please make your case.

 

You say that the heavenly father, like most fathers, given the opportunity, would stop terrible events from happening. However, in one of these stories, it is a father who is ripping the guts out of his kid. Yet, to say that God would stop these events from happening simply because you posit that most fathers would stop a terrible event from happening is not an argument. First, who says that most fathers would stop a terrible event from happening if they could. That is a vague statement without any evidence to support it. If God stopped all terrible events from happening, we would become automatons. We don't know how our actions are going to effect the course of history. When should God intercede? Should he stop the procreation process that would give birth to the future mass murderer? Should he turn the knife or the bullets into soft rubber? I suspect that even if he did that, the provocateur would continue to seek other means to commit the crime.

 

Finally, if you don't want to debate with me because you think me stupid, then I suggest that you cease posting to me as that is going to stir up a debate. However, if you think you are smarter than me, then please explain how you know that free will doesn't exist. I will be interested in your automated reply.

 

LNC

 

There is a conflict of beliefs between us, I do not think evil as we define it matters in the grand scheme of things. Creatures besides ourselves kill their own and other creatures every single day, there is nothing right or wrong about it, is just the way it is. Just as people demonize killing domestic animal pets, but don't give a fuck how many cows are tortured to made their big macs, it is the way things are. People need to eat, we kill things to eat, but killing our own is wrong, and that is how it is.

 

Bible "god" could still stop all the events that could cause death and we would have free will. But if you believe otherwise, then "god" should not intervene at all, no prayers, no favors, no shit to lick off your boots, nothing. Do you even have kids, or siblings? If it was in your power, as a good "moral" person, to keep them from harm but otherwise let them live how they choose, would you not? If you would let them be murdered, tortured, raped, abused, victimized, all in the name of "free will", I would consider you a psycho, and the same goes for a "god". i.e. I will judge you the same way I judge your bible god, by human standards, I'm not putting up with the "his ways are mysterious" crock of shit.

 

Personally, I believe free will exists to the extent that we have options to choose certain things, and other things we can't choose, currently anyway. We can't choose our genetics, for example, if a person wished that had been born to look like someone else there is nothing they can do about it, they can't change how the genes will affect them. Do we truly have unmolested, 100% grade A absolute free will? No, I don't think we do, we have options, but outside the options that are within our ability to utilize, there is no choice.

 

Let me rephrase myself when I deemed you stupid, I think you're probably very logical and intelligent in your own way, but religion has dwarfed how you see things, you view everything in black & white with no in between, just as many "christians" view their surroundings. You're even going so far as to trying to justify the insane actions of your bible god, but it's okay right? Because as long as you stick with bible god you've got your one way ticket into heaven, just as loyal soldiers to a tyrannical government & ruthless dictator have their one way ticket to living a comfortable life as long as they go along with with the insanity without opposition.

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There is a conflict of beliefs between us, I do not think evil as we define it matters in the grand scheme of things. Creatures besides ourselves kill their own and other creatures every single day, there is nothing right or wrong about it, is just the way it is. Just as people demonize killing domestic animal pets, but don't give a fuck how many cows are tortured to made their big macs, it is the way things are. People need to eat, we kill things to eat, but killing our own is wrong, and that is how it is.

Yes, I understand that there is a conflict between our beliefs and that is why we are having this conversation. Now, you say that there is no evil, and that makes sense given what I perceive your worldview to be. You say that there is no difference between killing what we call a pet and what we call livestock for food; however, you distinguish people as a special kind of animal that it is not right to kill, why is that? What makes human animals special and distinct in the animal world? Wouldn't you be guilty of speciesism?

Bible "god" could still stop all the events that could cause death and we would have free will. But if you believe otherwise, then "god" should not intervene at all, no prayers, no favors, no shit to lick off your boots, nothing. Do you even have kids, or siblings? If it was in your power, as a good "moral" person, to keep them from harm but otherwise let them live how they choose, would you not? If you would let them be murdered, tortured, raped, abused, victimized, all in the name of "free will", I would consider you a psycho, and the same goes for a "god". i.e. I will judge you the same way I judge your bible god, by human standards, I'm not putting up with the "his ways are mysterious" crock of shit.

You have to explain how God could prevent all evil without violating free will rather than just assert that it is the case. Could you please explain how that could happen? I mean, if a person has a desire and the will to murder, rape, torture, etc., how does God do that and not create even more chaos in the process? I have both kids and siblings, but I cannot prevent them from doing evil. Sure, I stop it when I see it, but I cannot change their desires and intents and when I'm not looking, and sometimes when I am, they still carry out their selfish deeds. Did you ever get away with misbehavior when you were growing up? I sure did, as did my siblings.

You may say, "yes, but God is omniscient, he can see and prevent all actions." I would answer, "yes, he can see and could turn real bullets and knives into rubber ones and do other things to thwart events, but he will not change a person's will to do these actions as that would be a violation. Also, suppose he did do these things, would it really make the world better? Maybe it would make things worse as people would continue to attempt evil actions, would continue to hate, etc., it would only be the carrying out of their deeds that would change. We would still live in a Balkanized world. However, it also mistakes the ultimate intention of God, which is not to make us happy in this world, but to give us what is more important, a knowledge and relationship with him. Removing evil from the world does not necessarily accomplish that.

Personally, I believe free will exists to the extent that we have options to choose certain things, and other things we can't choose, currently anyway. We can't choose our genetics, for example, if a person wished that had been born to look like someone else there is nothing they can do about it, they can't change how the genes will affect them. Do we truly have unmolested, 100% grade A absolute free will? No, I don't think we do, we have options, but outside the options that are within our ability to utilize, there is no choice.

Let me rephrase myself when I deemed you stupid, I think you're probably very logical and intelligent in your own way, but religion has dwarfed how you see things, you view everything in black & white with no in between, just as many "christians" view their surroundings. You're even going so far as to trying to justify the insane actions of your bible god, but it's okay right? Because as long as you stick with bible god you've got your one way ticket into heaven, just as loyal soldiers to a tyrannical government & ruthless dictator have their one way ticket to living a comfortable life as long as they go along with with the insanity without opposition.

First of all, the items that you list as counting against free will really have nothing to do with free will, those have to do with the nature of who we are (I mean nature in both the physical and philosophical sense). We can’t become horses either, because we are not horses by nature. However, I’m glad to hear that you believe we have free will, that is not the case for many (most) atheists/agnostics as it cannot be accounted for within that paradigm. I would agree with you that we don’t have free will over everything, but, that doesn’t negate the fact that we do have free will.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say that religion has “dwarfed how” I see things. No, I don’t see everything in black and white with no in between, but I also don’t believe that you don’t see some things as black and white with no in between. For example, logic tells us that A is not not-A and that A cannot be both A and not-A at the same time and in the same way. That is why we use the analogy of black and white as black cannot be both black and white at the same time and in the same way and black is not white. We all hold to laws of logic whether overtly or implicitly, it is how the world works.

Now, which of God’s acts have I justified that are not justifiable? You have already said that evil, as we define it, doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. I’m curious what actions of God’s that you would find unjustifiable and on what basis. It seems that you are also justifying these actions apart from God if you say that evil doesn’t matter. So, I’m not sure why it is OK for you to justify these actions and to assert that I have in regard to God when I haven’t done so. In fact, I don’t believe I’ve given my views on this as of yet.

LNC

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....I mean, if a person has a desire and the will to murder, rape, torture, etc., how does God do that and not create even more chaos in the process? I have both kids and siblings, but I cannot prevent them from doing evil. Sure, I stop it when I see it, but I cannot change their desires and intents and when I'm not looking, and sometimes when I am, they still carry out their selfish deeds.

...... but he will not change a person's will to do these actions as that would be a violation.

 

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Romans 7 : 19

The believer's will is magically changed to conform with the biblegod's, even though he desires to do evil along with the good, and even succeeds at doing evil.

 

If God stopped all terrible events from happening, we would become automatons.

 

God does stop all this with heaven and hell. Therefore, believers are ultimately automatons with their wills changed, and the biblegod stops all evil from happening by violating freewill with hell.

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"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Romans 7 : 19

The believer's will is magically changed to conform with the biblegod's, even though he desires to do evil along with the good, and even succeeds at doing evil.

The verse you quoted says the opposite of what you are saying.

 

God does stop all this with heaven and hell. Therefore, believers are ultimately automatons with their wills changed, and the biblegod stops all evil from happening by violating freewill with hell.

In heaven and hell people still have free will, but in heaven, in God's presence there is no desire to sin and in hell there is no presence of God only the presence of rebellious sinners and the rebellion continues.

 

LNC

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The verse you quoted says the opposite of what you are saying

 

Let me clarify. He understands wrong from right, but he has conflicting desires. His will is the deciding factor (even though he knows he shouldn't do it) that results in his wrong actions. The biblegod supposedly changes his will that leads to wrongdoing, giving him the ability to do the good he knows he should, which saves him.

 

In heaven and hell people still have free will, but in heaven, in God's presence there is no desire to sin and in hell there is no presence of God only the presence of rebellious sinners and the rebellion continues.

 

They can't commit evil acts in hell. Evil is defeated. Evil is not just a desire to sin, but an ACT. In heaven, the biblegod magically rids them of desire. They are not free to rebel, nor can they choose to.

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There is a conflict of beliefs between us, I do not think evil as we define it matters in the grand scheme of things. Creatures besides ourselves kill their own and other creatures every single day, there is nothing right or wrong about it, is just the way it is. Just as people demonize killing domestic animal pets, but don't give a fuck how many cows are tortured to made their big macs, it is the way things are. People need to eat, we kill things to eat, but killing our own is wrong, and that is how it is.

"Killing our own is wrong" That's so very biblical, and it's definitely specieism. LNC asks a valid question, even though I disagree with everything else he says. What differentiates humans as special from other species and makes it wrong only to kill them? Is that just your own personal opinion that humans are special? Based on their higher intelligence or something? ... which often manifests in very destructive ways, I might add. Or is it leftover from your xtian days? Or have I missed your point entirely (quite possible)?

 

People need to eat, yes, but they do not need to eat animals. Humans do not need meat in order to get all the nutrients they need. I'm just stating a fact, not preaching vegetarianism. I don't think humans are special. They're just more intelligent, and I really wish they'd use that intelligence, particularly in their treatment of other sentient creatures. When it comes to killing other species, we don't need to do it for our survival, particularly not at this stage of our evolution. Humans do this only because they enjoy the taste of dead flesh. We should do everything possible to avoid the needless suffering of other creatures in this process. But as we know, too many people don't give a shit about their suffering, since they think humans are more important and animals are to be exploited.

 

 

 

 

 

.

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In heaven and hell people still have free will, but in heaven, in God's presence there is no desire to sin and in hell there is no presence of God only the presence of rebellious sinners and the rebellion continues.

 

LNC

 

Do you know this as a fact, true and proven?

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#1 Parent guts their kid because the kid ate their crack. They did it to get their crack back. They gutted their kid alive to get their crack back. Let that sink in.

 

#2 Convict runs out of gas so they walk to the nearest gas station. They find mama filling her car. They shoot mama in the head in front of the kids. Kick the kids out and take the car and take it.

 

#3 Honestly, I thought twice and deleted this one because its so bad I wouldn't want to put it in your head. Some things stick with you

 

We are all animals. Some of the human animals are more 'tame' than others. Some are just more evolved. Some human animals have healthier brains, so they are better able to conduct themselves. Add drugs and alcohol to certain people = stir = bad brains.

 

In the animal kingdom:

 

1. Animals gut other animals and eat them while they are still alive.

2. Animals do similar acts.........

3 probably animals would do this also.............

 

for the believers: God is so good to make us like this..........................................

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Humans do not need meat in order to get all the nutrients they need. I'm just stating a fact, not preaching vegetarianism.

 

I agree with humane treatment of animals, but this statement is simply not true in all cases. If you live in an extreme northern climate you have no choice. This is the only way humans have managed to live in Alaska, Siberia, Tibet, etc..

 

I assume you are only speaking of the modern world with its ability to transport food into these areas, but even then there are no guarantees.

 

Humans have hunted animals for at least a hundred thousand years. They are not going to stop anytime soon.

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Please don't invite more of this.

 

Actually it's not hard to understand that undisciplined, drug-addled, hormone crazed adolescents often do horrible things to themselves and to others. And if you don't believe there's a loving, caring god who should Do Something about it, you won't waste time being confused, or hating him, or tap dancing to defend him. And you won't blame Satan, either. You might actually even try to change society in ways that get at the root problems.

 

THIS! Good job DesertBob!

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 06:20 AM (#210)

 

Hello.

 

As a late-comer to this thread I was wondering if LNC would be so good as to respond to the following points, some of which have been touched upon in this thread.

 

1. What kind of variation in this universe's governing physical constants would invalidate the Fine-Tuning Argument?

2. Have these variations been detected?

3. What type of Multiverse would invalidate the Fine-Tuning Argument?

4. Has this kind of Multiverse been detected?

5. Which cosmological theory do you hold to?

6. Why that one?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Posted 08 March 2011 - 05:10 AM (#297)

 

Hey LNC!

 

Did I miss your reply to my message? If so, sorry. Could you please re-iterate, tell me where I can find it or link to it? Thanks.

 

If not, here's what I wrote.

 

Posted 05 February 2011 - 06:20 AM (#210)

Hello.

 

As a late-comer to this thread I was wondering if LNC would be so good as to respond to the following points, some of which have been touched upon in this thread.

 

1. What kind of variation in this universe's governing physical constants would invalidate the Fine-Tuning Argument?

2. Have these variations been detected?

3. What type of Multiverse would invalidate the Fine-Tuning Argument?

4. Has this kind of Multiverse been detected?

5. Which cosmological theory do you hold to?

6. Why that one?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Posted 14 March 2011 - 11:08 AM (#309)

 

LNC, on 12 March 2011 - 11:11 PM, said:

 

Neon Genesis, on 07 March 2011 - 10:59 AM, said:

 

Your scenario actually disproves omniscience and proves the point we're trying to make. In your scenario, you claim to know ahead of time that the child will take the candy but then turn around and allow for the possibility that the child will not take the candy. But if the child doesn't take the candy, then the child did something you had no foreknowledge of and thus you are not omniscience because your foreknowledge is imperfect and you yourself admit foreknowledge in your scenario is not perfect. But under the biblical definition of God, God is supposed to be perfect and have perfect foreknowledge. So either you admit God isn't perfect and God can't know every scenario or if God knows every scenario the child will choose, then it is inevitable the child will do the action that God foresaw and thus God determined it but you can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

 

 

Right, I think I said that it is not a perfect analogy and that is why. However, contrary to what you said, it does not disprove omniscience. Yes, God does have perfect knowledge and though the outcome may be inevitable in God's knowledge, it is still a free choice on the part of the person within that moment of decision. I am actually surprised that you haven't read up on compatibilism, as it shows that there is no conflict here logically. I have already given the link and unless you can show that the author has made some logical mistake, I will consider this argument to be reconciled.

 

LNC

 

 

 

Ok LNC.

You consider this argument (between yourself and Neon Genesis) to be reconciled. Fine.

 

So, is it asking too much of you to just reply?

Even if it's, "No! I won't be answering your questions."?

 

Please note that the tone and content of my messages to you in this thread have been nothing but polite and respectful.

 

I would appreciate an equal measure of these things from you.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

(This is the end of that particular thread.)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello again LNC.

 

Sorry to butt in on your debate, but if you would be so kind as to respond to the six questions I put to you in February, I'd appreciate it. Obviously, in the relevant thread. Thanks.

 

Oh and btw, here's two more questions for you.

 

7. Do you think JasperST4 (or someone similar) will 'pop' into existence again?

8. So, are you a Calvinist? (I put this one to you years ago - and never got a reply.)

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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LNC, is it possible to be a theist or a spiritual person and not believe in free will?

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Let me clarify. He understands wrong from right, but he has conflicting desires. His will is the deciding factor (even though he knows he shouldn't do it) that results in his wrong actions. The biblegod supposedly changes his will that leads to wrongdoing, giving him the ability to do the good he knows he should, which saves him.

First of all, we are not saved by doing good works or choosing to do what is right (see Eph. 2:8-9 & Gal. 2:15-21). Second, I'm not sure if you are saying that the change that God brings about causes Paul to do wrong? If so, that is not the case either. The Bible makes it clear that we are dead in our transgressions and sins (Eph. 2:1) and that we follow after the course of the world, are children of disobedience, and are children of wrath (Eph. 2:2-3). We are called to be renewed in our minds (Rom. 12:2), but that doesn't mean that we will not sin, only that we have the power to be transformed from the desire and power of sin. Paul was in the midst of this battle in Rom. 7 and struggling with what he wanted to do and what he was doing.

 

They can't commit evil acts in hell. Evil is defeated. Evil is not just a desire to sin, but an ACT. In heaven, the biblegod magically rids them of desire. They are not free to rebel, nor can they choose to.

Evil is defeated, but that doesn't mean that it cannot continue in hell. What it means that evil is defeated is that it has been judged and sentenced to an eternal punishment. However, the rebellion against God (which is evil) continues in hell. To be rid of desire is not the same as removing free will. I can rid myself of the desire to sin by not placing myself in tempting spots, but that doesn't mean that I don't have free will. People on diets can remove temptation by keeping sweets out of the house, staying away from fast food, etc., but that doesn't mean that they don't have free will. There is a difference between not desiring to rebel and not being able to do so.

 

LNC

 

 

 

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I thought I just had. Assuming that morality is absolute, would that lead to sin being absolute as well? And if absolute morality must be created by God, then would this mean that absolute sin also must be created by God?

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3). We are called to be renewed in our minds (Rom. 12:2), but that doesn't mean that we will not sin, only that we have the power to be transformed from the desire and power of sin. Paul was in the midst of this battle in Rom. 7 and struggling with what he wanted to do and what he was doing.

 

 

 

 

Bullshit!

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Margee!!!!! Such language!

 

Just becuase the guy is full of sht doesn't mean he's not human too.

 

 

Way to go BAA in bringing up forgotten questions. Its amazing how many times the christians on this site do that.

 

 

<gets popcorn>

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