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Goodbye Jesus

Sin


J.W.

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3). We are called to be renewed in our minds (Rom. 12:2), but that doesn't mean that we will not sin, only that we have the power to be transformed from the desire and power of sin. Paul was in the midst of this battle in Rom. 7 and struggling with what he wanted to do and what he was doing.

 

 

 

 

Bullshit!

 

You said it! (Applauds loudly). Aren't you glad none of this stuff is true?

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To be rid of desire is not the same as removing free will. I can rid myself of the desire to sin by not placing myself in tempting spots, but that doesn't mean that I don't have free will. People on diets can remove temptation by keeping sweets out of the house, staying away from fast food, etc., but that doesn't mean that they don't have free will. There is a difference between not desiring to rebel and not being able to do so.

 

LNC

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else think this is really dumb?

 

The whole "free will" schtick is the most worn out apologetic ever. There is no such thing as "free will", much less removal of it. What a ridiculous mess of a statement.

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To be rid of desire is not the same as removing free will. I can rid myself of the desire to sin by not placing myself in tempting spots, but that doesn't mean that I don't have free will. People on diets can remove temptation by keeping sweets out of the house, staying away from fast food, etc., but that doesn't mean that they don't have free will. There is a difference between not desiring to rebel and not being able to do so.

 

LNC

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else think this is really dumb?

 

The whole "free will" schtick is the most worn out apologetic ever. There is no such thing as "free will", much less removal of it. What a ridiculous mess of a statement.

What he's saying is that God gave us (supposedly) free will so we can sin, and the salvation is when Jesus comes and removes the will to sin, i.e. castrate free will.

 

One must wonder why free will is so great and good that God gave it to us for the sole purpose of us learning how bad it is and must be removed!? :twitch:

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First of all, we are not saved by doing good works or choosing to do what is right (see Eph. 2:8-9 & Gal. 2:15-21).

 

God changing Paul's will saves him from sin. I failed to expand upon what I meant.

 

Second, I'm not sure if you are saying that the change that God brings about causes Paul to do wrong?

 

I didn't mean that, I was saying Paul's own will causes him to do wrong.

 

We are called to be renewed in our minds (Rom. 12:2), but that doesn't mean that we will not sin, only that we have the power to be transformed from the desire and power of sin.

 

You said earlier:..."he will not change a person's will to do these actions as that would be a violation[of freewill]." But the biblegod supposedly DOES change the believer's will. Being transformed to "godliness" is impossible for a sinner according to your view. So believers cannot be good without the biblegod doing his will in them.

 

 

Evil is defeated, but that doesn't mean that it cannot continue in hell....To be rid of desire is not the same as removing free will....There is a difference between not desiring to rebel and not being able to do so.

 

If evil is defeated, how can evil continue? How can it run amok in hell? That's not defeat. Besides, the poor roastees are too busy experiencing their punishment to be able to do evil. Unless evil is only a disagreement about what God does and how He does it. That would not be rebellion unless God is a dictator.

 

Removing temptations doesn't change a will. The will to do anything wrong remains. Since the biblegod needs believers with proper wills to do good forever, he must work his magic to change their will. Believers surrender their desires first, followed by their imperfect wills. The tendency to will to do evil is removed by this god. Freewill is limited to the decision to surrender their desires and wills for God to magically forge them (desires, will) on the godly assembly line. The biblegod assembles their wills to do his will and pleasure. That smells Orwellian to me.

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To be rid of desire is not the same as removing free will. I can rid myself of the desire to sin by not placing myself in tempting spots, but that doesn't mean that I don't have free will. People on diets can remove temptation by keeping sweets out of the house, staying away from fast food, etc., but that doesn't mean that they don't have free will. There is a difference between not desiring to rebel and not being able to do so.

 

LNC

 

 

Does anyone else think this is really dumb?

 

The whole "free will" schtick is the most worn out apologetic ever. There is no such thing as "free will", much less removal of it. What a ridiculous mess of a statement.

The "free will" myth is so subjective it means virtually nothing.

Since the Bible God has no problem directly manipulating human choices and will punish improper choices, the word "free" is meaningless.

If a sinner truly had "free will" then they could avoid hell by choosing not to go.

There would be no punishment and no need for divine ultimatums.

Christianity scorns free will because it uses a divine ultimatum to coerce choice and its God punishes "incorrect" decisions.

It's the free will of a police state.

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To be rid of desire is not the same as removing free will. I can rid myself of the desire to sin by not placing myself in tempting spots, but that doesn't mean that I don't have free will. People on diets can remove temptation by keeping sweets out of the house, staying away from fast food, etc., but that doesn't mean that they don't have free will. There is a difference between not desiring to rebel and not being able to do so.

 

LNC

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else think this is really dumb?

 

The whole "free will" schtick is the most worn out apologetic ever. There is no such thing as "free will", much less removal of it. What a ridiculous mess of a statement.

 

Deva, this is how I see it.......... god makes us (and already knows because of who he is) that we will sin. Then they say adam and eve had free will and 'blew it' for everybody. First of all - I resent that, because I have to suffer because of 2 people, 4,000 years ago picking the wrong goddamn fruit off a tree....... and then we find out that if you don't obey god now - you get sent to hell. Where is the effing 'free will' in this??

Obey and worship god, trust in jesus and all be well. Choose otherwise and burn for eternity! NO FREE WILL HERE THAT I CAN SEE....:shrug:

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"John 1:3-Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

 

this would state that sin would of been made by God and endorsed by him.

 

for a all powerful god this desicsion is pretty stupid imo to create somthing that you cant stand to the point you send people to hell becuase they jsut so happen to posses somthing that you created is absured.

 

and our morality comes from the ideals of our society and the influences around us probly originating ultimatly from our biological make up. for example in the collapse of society the guy killing mothers and stealing cars would be common place becuase the needs of survival demand it. rember we are no more than species of animals our selves with a higher state of awarness of its existance (this is debatable) and in its development has out grown the need for savage killing. but it isnt to say we CANT commit the acts of violence on such scale.

 

also the God of the bible "comands" his faithful servents to go kill babies, cattle and women. rather than use his INFINANTE POWER to educate and fix peoples rather than to hurt them.

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I agree with humane treatment of animals, but this statement is simply not true in all cases. If you live in an extreme northern climate you have no choice. This is the only way humans have managed to live in Alaska, Siberia, Tibet, etc..

You are absolutely right, Deva. There are extreme climates that make it necessary. I was responding to the poster's blanket statement that humans need to eat, therefore they need to eat animals. I should have qualified it.

 

I assume you are only speaking of the modern world with its ability to transport food into these areas, but even then there are no guarantees.

Yes, of course. I thought of that when I posted, but if I included every single detail that crosses my mind when I post, I'd never complete a post. :wacko: There are always lots of special circumstances. As another example, if I was lost in the mountain wilderness in the winter, it's unlikely I'd be able to survive by eating nonexistent berries or digging for some grass to chew on which is buried underneath 10 feet of frozen snow, neither would those things alone sustain me very long even if they were available.

 

Humans have hunted animals for at least a hundred thousand years. They are not going to stop anytime soon.

Yep, that's right. I'm not a vegetarian, by the way, but I don't like the way we treat animals. It's a matter of how we approach it, not that we should entirely stop. But honestly, I find the whole process of nature and the fact that living creatures need to eat each other rather disturbing, and to me, it does not look like intelligent design. But that is outside the scope of this thread. I'll let the discussion get back on course.

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. First, who says that most fathers would stop a terrible event from happening if they could.

 

Most loving and caring fathers would. An evil uncaring father wouldn't. I, as a father would do everything I could to protect my children from low life bastards and to hell with the freewill of the perpetrator. My kids right to a safe and happy life comes before some bastard who wants to commit attrocities. Surely you as a parent would understand something about what a person would do to protect their child. Wouldn't you do whatever you could to protect your children?

 

If God stopped all terrible events from happening, we would become automatons.

 

Do you seriously believe this? Really? When you make rules for your kids and stop them from doing wrong, do you consider that violating their freewill? Do they become automatons? I have rules in my house and my kids keep the rules. I will stop them if I catch them doing something wrong. They are certainly not automatons. It's not like God would be tying up the perpetrator and controlling everything they do. All he would be doing is stepping in and preventing evil, which really for an all powerful God would be an effortless thing. To not do that shows an uncaring and unloving God.

 

Ask yourself this question. If God won't or can't do it on Earth, how do you expect him to keep Heaven free of evil? If he can deal with it in Heaven without violating freewill, then he can do it on Earth. And if you think God would never violate freewill, then you haven't read much of the bible. He violated freewill whenever he wants. He even forced an entire army of Midianites to turn against each other and slay each other with swords. (Judges 7:22) I also gaurantee that many of the prayers you pray and give thanks to God for when you get what you ask for, involve God having to violate someone's free will.

 

We don't know how our actions are going to effect the course of history. When should God intercede?

 

This isn't "Back to the Future". This isn't about going back and time and avoiding changing something that would have a domino effect and change the future. We're talking about the present. If God won't intervene, then how can you possibly consider him loving and caring?

 

You have to explain how God could prevent all evil without violating free will rather than just assert that it is the case.

 

How do you think God will do it in Heaven? Why not apply the same principles to here on Eart? I can personally give you a list of possible ways to prevent evil without violating freewill.

 

 

Should he stop the procreation process that would give birth to the future mass murderer?

 

Why not? At least for the person giving birth to the future mass murderer and God knows, doesn't he? He knew what an abomonation he was creating when he created Satan, but he went ahead and did it anyway. Imagine what a wonderful world we'd live in if God had refused to create Satan?

 

If you knew that if you had sex with your partner tonight, you were going to give birth to a murderer, would you still have sex with her tonight or perhaps wait until tomorrow night instead? What if the murder victim was a small child and your child you gave birth to actually raped and tortured this child before killing him? What if the person he killed was someone you loved dearly? If you knew all this was going to happen before you concieved that child, you would avoid conceiving it if you could, wouldn't you?

 

Should he turn the knife or the bullets into soft rubber? I suspect that even if he did that, the provocateur would continue to seek other means to commit the crime.

 

So you're saying God is limited? He couldn't stop the perpertrator if he really wanted to?

 

I have both kids and siblings, but I cannot prevent them from doing evil. Sure, I stop it when I see it, but I cannot change their desires and intents and when I'm not looking, and sometimes when I am, they still carry out their selfish deeds. Did you ever get away with misbehavior when you were growing up? I sure did, as did my siblings.

 

So we should just let them do whatever they like then? Let them cause suffering to whoever they want? Even you say you stop them when you see it. You do it because you're a caring compassionate person, right? Because you couldn't just stand there and do nothing. God, if he is as the bible claims him to be sees ALL the we do. He is there every time a human being commits an attrocity. If he stands by and does nothing then he cannot be considered compassionate and loving, only uncaring or apathetic.

 

You may say, "yes, but God is omniscient, he can see and prevent all actions." I would answer, "yes, he can see and could turn real bullets and knives into rubber ones and do other things to thwart events, but he will not change a person's will to do these actions as that would be a violation

 

But he does violate freewill. And if Christians are to be believe, he does it all the time when answering prayers and I can quote numerous scriptures where God violates people's freewill in the bible. Stopping someone from performing an evil act is far more compassionate and caring than allowing one to continue.

 

 

Also, suppose he did do these things, would it really make the world better?

 

:twitch:

 

Of course the world would be better! No torture, murder, rape, child molestation... World a better place? You better believe it. Maybe not for the ones who want to do that stuff, but for the majority, good law abiding people who'd never dream of doing stuff like that, a resounding YES! Imagine all those poor children, rape and torture victims who will not have to live with the nightmares. You will not have suffered psychologically or physically. You're trying to say their world wouldn't be better? Seriously? :Doh:

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, in God's presence there is no desire to sin

 

Therefore those people in Heaven will have their freewill violated. They will have the desire to sin supressed. They will be like automatons if we go by your logic.

 

Other question: How can God be omnipresent, yet one not be in his presence?

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Deva, this is how I see it.......... god makes us (and already knows because of who he is) that we will sin. Then they say adam and eve had free will and 'blew it' for everybody. First of all - I resent that, because I have to suffer because of 2 people, 4,000 years ago picking the wrong goddamn fruit off a tree....... and then we find out that if you don't obey god now - you get sent to hell. Where is the effing 'free will' in this??

Obey and worship god, trust in jesus and all be well. Choose otherwise and burn for eternity! NO FREE WILL HERE THAT I CAN SEE....:shrug:

 

That's right. There is no "free will" in the Bible either. No suggestion of it. Free will is just an excuse for Biblegod and a way to try to throw blame on people when God is ultimately responsible. I totally reject it.

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Deva, this is how I see it.......... god makes us (and already knows because of who he is) that we will sin. Then they say adam and eve had free will and 'blew it' for everybody. First of all - I resent that, because I have to suffer because of 2 people, 4,000 years ago picking the wrong goddamn fruit off a tree....... and then we find out that if you don't obey god now - you get sent to hell. Where is the effing 'free will' in this??

Obey and worship god, trust in jesus and all be well. Choose otherwise and burn for eternity! NO FREE WILL HERE THAT I CAN SEE....:shrug:

 

That's right. There is no "free will" in the Bible either. No suggestion of it. Free will is just an excuse for Biblegod and a way to try to throw blame on people when God is ultimately responsible. I totally reject it.

 

:twitch:Jeez -I thought I knew my bible!!! You mean there is no mention at all, anywhere about 'freewill'. then this whole concept was made up??:eek:

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Deva, this is how I see it.......... god makes us (and already knows because of who he is) that we will sin. Then they say adam and eve had free will and 'blew it' for everybody. First of all - I resent that, because I have to suffer because of 2 people, 4,000 years ago picking the wrong goddamn fruit off a tree....... and then we find out that if you don't obey god now - you get sent to hell. Where is the effing 'free will' in this??

Obey and worship god, trust in jesus and all be well. Choose otherwise and burn for eternity! NO FREE WILL HERE THAT I CAN SEE....:shrug:

 

That's right. There is no "free will" in the Bible either. No suggestion of it. Free will is just an excuse for Biblegod and a way to try to throw blame on people when God is ultimately responsible. I totally reject it.

 

:twitch:Jeez -I thought I knew my bible!!! You mean there is no mention at all, anywhere about 'freewill'. then this whole concept was made up??:eek:

 

 

You might enjoy this fine collection of scriptual quotes related to "What the Bible Says about Free Will."

 

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/free_will.html

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Way to go BAA in bringing up forgotten questions. Its amazing how many times the christians on this site do that.

 

 

<gets popcorn>

 

To be fair Stryper, the guy did say that he'd had a busy spring, which covers the time when I put my half dozen cosmological questions to him. Perhaps he just missed them?

 

On the other hand, LNC managed to reply to posts dated up to March 7. I messaged him on March 5. :shrug:

 

BAA.

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, in God's presence there is no desire to sin

 

Therefore those people in Heaven will have their freewill violated. They will have the desire to sin supressed. They will be like automatons if we go by your logic.

 

Other question: How can God be omnipresent, yet one not be in his presence?

And let's not forget that Satan rebelled, while being in Heaven. And God did meet with Adam and Even in the garden, after they had sinned. So God can be in the presence of being with sin, and in presence of being who are at the moment sinning.

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Do you know this as a fact, true and proven?

 

There are differing views on this issue; however, I believe that it can be logically deduced that free will exists in heaven from what we are told about heaven. We know that free will exists in heaven as the angels exhibited it as they rebelled against God while in heaven (Is. 14 & Ez. 28, Rev. 12, etc.). If angels could exhibit free will in heaven, we have no reason to believe that humans will not be able to. To take away free will from us would be to change our very natures and that includes the fact that free will is a way that we reflect God's nature in whose image we are created. We will be free, but in a better way than we are free here on Earth. Freedom in heaven will be freedom from sin, not freedom to sin. This kind of freedom is an even better freedom than the freedom we have on Earth as we constantly struggle to make the right choices.

 

LNC

 

 

 

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Do you know this as a fact, true and proven?

 

There are differing views on this issue; however, I believe that it can be logically deduced that free will exists in heaven from what we are told about heaven. We know that free will exists in heaven as the angels exhibited it as they rebelled against God while in heaven (Is. 14 & Ez. 28, Rev. 12, etc.). If angels could exhibit free will in heaven, we have no reason to believe that humans will not be able to. To take away free will from us would be to change our very natures and that includes the fact that free will is a way that we reflect God's nature in whose image we are created. We will be free, but in a better way than we are free here on Earth. Freedom in heaven will be freedom from sin, not freedom to sin. This kind of freedom is an even better freedom than the freedom we have on Earth as we constantly struggle to make the right choices.

 

LNC

 

 

 

 

But LNC - I don't believe the bible - give me an explanation apart from the book that was written in ancient days, by ancient people........please..........

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Hello.

As a late-comer to this thread I was wondering if LNC would be so good as to respond to the following points, some of which have been touched upon in this thread.

1. What kind of variation in this universe's governing physical constants would invalidate the Fine-Tuning Argument?

LNC: Wow, you’ve certainly jumped topics from the OP here. I think you have posed the question wrong. I think that we look for variables in the constants that cannot be explained by chance or law and then conclude that these are evidence of design, not the other way around.

2. Have these variations been detected?

LNC: See my answer above.

3. What type of Multiverse would invalidate the Fine-Tuning Argument?

LNC: I suspect that it would require an infinite number of universes, each with unique sets of constants such that no two are alike. How do you propose that we detect these multiverses?

4. Has this kind of Multiverse been detected?

LNC: The only multiverse that has been surmised is a level 1 multiverse, which is that our universe is larger than we we can currently measure. However, with the time that light is required to reach us, we can surmise that the actual universe is larger than we can currently measure and detect.

5. Which cosmological theory do you hold to?

LNC: I hold to the standard Big Bang model.

6. Why that one?

LNC: It has the greatest amount of experimental confirmation.

Thanks,

LNC: You’re welcome

BAA.

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 05:10 AM (#297)

Hey LNC!

Did I miss your reply to my message? If so, sorry. Could you please re-iterate, tell me where I can find it or link to it? Thanks.

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Your scenario actually disproves omniscience and proves the point we're trying to make. In your scenario, you claim to know ahead of time that the child will take the candy but then turn around and allow for the possibility that the child will not take the candy. But if the child doesn't take the candy, then the child did something you had no foreknowledge of and thus you are not omniscience because your foreknowledge is imperfect and you yourself admit foreknowledge in your scenario is not perfect. But under the biblical definition of God, God is supposed to be perfect and have perfect foreknowledge. So either you admit God isn't perfect and God can't know every scenario or if God knows every scenario the child will choose, then it is inevitable the child will do the action that God foresaw and thus God determined it but you can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Right, I think I said that it is not a perfect analogy and that is why. However, contrary to what you said, it does not disprove omniscience. Yes, God does have perfect knowledge and though the outcome may be inevitable in God's knowledge, it is still a free choice on the part of the person within that moment of decision. I am actually surprised that you haven't read up on compatibilism, as it shows that there is no conflict here logically. I have already given the link and unless you can show that the author has made some logical mistake, I will consider this argument to be reconciled.

LNC

Ok LNC.

You consider this argument (between yourself and Neon Genesis) to be reconciled. Fine.

So, is it asking too much of you to just reply?

Even if it's, "No! I won't be answering your questions."?

Please note that the tone and content of my messages to you in this thread have been nothing but polite and respectful.

I would appreciate an equal measure of these things from you.

Thanks,

BAA.

(This is the end of that particular thread.)

LNC: Sorry, I had a self-imposed ban on posting to forums as I completed my Master’s thesis.

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Hello again LNC.

Sorry to butt in on your debate, but if you would be so kind as to respond to the six questions I put to you in February, I'd appreciate it. Obviously, in the relevant thread. Thanks.

Oh and btw, here's two more questions for you.

7. Do you think JasperST4 (or someone similar) will 'pop' into existence again?

LNC: ???? I’m not tracking with this question - clarification, please.

8. So, are you a Calvinist? (I put this one to you years ago - and never got a reply.)

LNC: For my clarification, please define what you mean by Calvinist. Everyone has different understandings and definitions and I don’t like to respond to questions about names or titles of positions, it can lead to too many misunderstandings.

Thanks,

LNC: You’re welcome again.

BAA.

 

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LNC, is it possible to be a theist or a spiritual person and not believe in free will?

 

Sure, I suppose it is possible as one's Christianity is not defined by one's belief in free will, it is defined based upon one's trust in Jesus' death and resurrection as payment for our sins. However, that person would have to somehow reconcile personal responsibility for sin within that model as if a person didn't hold the view that they had a personal responsibility and guilt for sin, then the person would see no need for salvation and would therefore have no reason to trust in Jesus' death and resurrection as payment for that sin. So, is it plausible? I find it highly problematic.

 

LNC

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I thought I just had. Assuming that morality is absolute, would that lead to sin being absolute as well? And if absolute morality must be created by God, then would this mean that absolute sin also must be created by God?

 

Please define what you mean by morality being absolute. I prefer to say that morality is objectively true. If it is objectively true, then it has to have a transcendent source and we would have to be accountable to that source if morality was to have any oughtness to it. However, I see no reason, even given your explanation why sin would have to be grounded in God or be absolute. Maybe you could explain further.

 

LNC

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To take away free will from us would be to change our very natures and that includes the fact that free will is a way that we reflect God's nature in whose image we are created.

 

To take away our sinful nature would be to change our very natures. Sin must be a way we reflect God's nature too, in whose image we are created. Our natures don't need changing after all!

I can't take what you have to say about freewill seriously anymore. :twitch:

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Does anyone else think this is really dumb?

 

The whole "free will" schtick is the most worn out apologetic ever. There is no such thing as "free will", much less removal of it. What a ridiculous mess of a statement.

 

Then you had not choice in posting this message? May I take it then that this post is ultimately meaningless groupings of symbols with no intended meaning (as that would require free will on your part to impose meaning on them)? If there is no free will, then this whole forum is just meaningless strings of symbols being placed on the pages with no intention or purpose. Is that what I should conclude (if I had the freedom to do so)?

 

<let the outcry and insults begin>

 

 

LNC

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Does anyone else think this is really dumb?

 

The whole "free will" schtick is the most worn out apologetic ever. There is no such thing as "free will", much less removal of it. What a ridiculous mess of a statement.

 

What he's saying is that God gave us (supposedly) free will so we can sin, and the salvation is when Jesus comes and removes the will to sin, i.e. castrate free will.

 

One must wonder why free will is so great and good that God gave it to us for the sole purpose of us learning how bad it is and must be removed!? :twitch:

 

I don't believe that is my argument, nor have I even presented such an argument. I've said all along that God doesn't remove free will, even for those who trust in him.

 

LNC

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God changing Paul's will saves him from sin. I failed to expand upon what I meant.

That is still not the case. We are not saved by God changing our will. Yes, that does happen after salvation, but is not a condition of salvation.

 

I didn't mean that, I was saying Paul's own will causes him to do wrong.

Yes, that is true.

 

You said earlier:..."he will not change a person's will to do these actions as that would be a violation[of freewill]." But the biblegod supposedly DOES change the believer's will. Being transformed to "godliness" is impossible for a sinner according to your view. So believers cannot be good without the biblegod doing his will in them.

To transform one's will (in conjunction with the desire of the believer) is not to remove a person's free will. So, no it is not impossible, it is what God does in conjunction with the desires of the follower of Christ. It is not possible for the person who does not follow Christ, but that also doesn't take away a person's free will. I have free will, but I'm not able to buy a Lear Jet as I don't have the resources to do so. But I still have free will.

 

If evil is defeated, how can evil continue? How can it run amok in hell? That's not defeat. Besides, the poor roastees are too busy experiencing their punishment to be able to do evil. Unless evil is only a disagreement about what God does and how He does it. That would not be rebellion unless God is a dictator.

 

Removing temptations doesn't change a will. The will to do anything wrong remains. Since the biblegod needs believers with proper wills to do good forever, he must work his magic to change their will. Believers surrender their desires first, followed by their imperfect wills. The tendency to will to do evil is removed by this god. Freewill is limited to the decision to surrender their desires and wills for God to magically forge them (desires, will) on the godly assembly line. The biblegod assembles their wills to do his will and pleasure. That smells Orwellian to me.

 

 

The Civil War ended long before the troops stopped fighting. Evil deceives a person to believe that the war is not over and that there is hope of victory, even though in reality, the war is over. God has victory, but it doesn't mean that those who hate him are going to be forced to love him. I don't see a conflict here. I don't see any evidence that those in hell are going to be so consumed with their punishment that they cannot continue in rebellion. People think in parallel not serially. IOW, we can multitask, even in eternity.

 

In heaven, it will not only be the removal of temptation, but the presence of Jesus that will remove desire to sin. You will have to give some evidence for your position, I don't see any in the Bible.

 

LNC

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To transform one's will (in conjunction with the desire of the believer) is not to remove a person's free will.

 

Transform to what? If free will remains, it's still the same: free and unchanged.

 

That is still not the case. We are not saved by God changing our will.

 

My bad.

 

I don't see any evidence that those in hell are going to be so consumed with their punishment that they cannot continue in rebellion.

 

The punishment must not be so bad...

 

In heaven, it will not only be the removal of temptation, but the presence of Jesus that will remove desire to sin. You will have to give some evidence for your position, I don't see any in the Bible.

 

I can't argue with magic, but the verses referenced in this thread are all about predestination, not free will.

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