The Brain And Spirituality

[Antlerman]

I've moved these posts out of another thread in order to separate this discussion into its own. This topic is intended less as a debate and more a discussion of multiple areas of interest surround the human experience of what is called spirituality. In the "spirit" of this forum, the expectation is a show of respect to others points of view, despite differences in opinion.

 

From earlier:

 

Personally, I can't help the fact that I too think spirituality is just tapping into the brain's synapses as he stated.

This view here you raised is in fact a legitimate and important discussion to have, especially as part of a world where science does in fact inform us of a great deal and is inextricably part of who we are. As to cause and effect, I would say that of course the brain registers activity that is going on in the mental/spiritual spheres. Does your brain fabricate the perceptual world for you? Is every experience of life, created only in the brain?

 

Spirituality is I would say a type of experience of life itself. It's a type of conscious awareness, just like all other types. We experience these things using our brain. A tree cannot experience life like a human because it lacks the proper organ which allows that to happen. But to me to say spiritual awareness, spiritual experience is nothing more than what the brain does, is like saying my friendships, and emotions, and loves, my sense of values, etc, is nothing more than what the brain does. It's reductionist to the point of unreality.

 

I've tried, but I honestly do not get why it's so meaningful to some.

It's because you try.

 

I try to be respectful nonetheless, but I also don't want to walk on egg shells afraid to hurt the feelings of others simply for agreeing with a statement that was agreeable to me.

I really hope people don't feel they need to walk on eggshells. I don't consider halting discussion to be helpful. You disagree respectfully all the time, and I respect you for it and enjoy what it offers in dialog.

[Vigile]

[Foxy Methoxy]

Personally, I can't help the fact that I too think spirituality is just tapping into the brain's synapses as he stated.

 

Everything we experience taps into the brain's synapses. Only the individual who experiences these things can decide which ones are important and which ones to discard.

[Antlerman]

Personally, I can't help the fact that I too think spirituality is just tapping into the brain's synapses as he stated.

 

Everything we experience taps into the brain's synapses. Only the individual who experiences these things can decide which ones are important and which ones to discard.

Yep. I liken the mind to a like a telescope that peers more deeply into life. Without it, we just respond impulsively. How deep do you care to peer, is the real question. It's all there. It's just a matter of openings.

 

Did the Hubble create deep space?

[Noggy]

Personally, I can't help the fact that I too think spirituality is just tapping into the brain's synapses as he stated.

 

Everything we experience taps into the brain's synapses. Only the individual who experiences these things can decide which ones are important and which ones to discard.

 

Yeah, just because a feeling we get is a chemical reaction doesn't mean those chemicals didn't get pushed there by a spiritual force. We know how the laws of physics behave, and just because something breaks the "law" doesn't mean its impossible. In the natural world we have observed that F=ma, but if there was a spiritual force, it wouldn't have to obey that, and matter wouldn't have to obey that. It's not like we've measured all of the neurotic impulses in our brains and have the origins of all of them.

[Foxy Methoxy]

[Noggy]

 

A physical law only explains everything that we have seen to date that is affected by it. it's possible gravity could work completely differently when objects are shaped like unicorns, but we don't know because we haven't seen that happen. we havent been able to observe spiritual forces move objects, so they dont fit our physical description of the universe. if spiritual forces were to interact with the brain, we can't know because we've never measured anything that well yet.

[Foxy Methoxy]

[Antlerman]

we havent been able to observe spiritual forces move objects

Except through all of human creativity, the processes of evolution, life itself, the universe itself, etc. Outside those...

 

so they dont fit our physical description of the universe.

It doesn't fit a physical description of the universe in the same way a cultural description doesn't.

 

if spiritual forces were to interact with the brain, we can't know because we've never measured anything that well yet.

You're thinking in terms of "spiritual force" as you call it, as a different order of physical force. That's the problem right there. As an example, we experience culture, and can see and observe culture manifest in social structures, even though it doesn't exist as a physical object. It is a manifestation of subjective realities. In fact, we can say this non-physical "force" is an object by the fact we interact with it by the fact it influences the material world, etc. So then the question is in a physical universe where does this influencing reality come from? Is it a product of atoms? Or is it a product of evolved mental 'forces'?

 

If mental 'forces' are part of reality as well as physical, and culture is an 'objective' manifest creation of an inter-subjective mental reality, and culture varies in form while the fact of culture does not, in the same way it seems an underlying reality binds and ties together all manifestations of form, and evolution, influenced and directed through the active relations of the subjective, inter-subjective, and objective spheres of all existence, through all stages of evolution or development in a great unfolding of something that 'doesn't exist' either. Where's the proof for Spirit? Where's the proof for culture?

[Noggy]

we havent been able to observe spiritual forces move objects

Except through all of human creativity, the processes of evolution, life itself, the universe itself, etc. Outside those...

 

so they dont fit our physical description of the universe.

It doesn't fit a physical description of the universe in the same way a cultural description doesn't.

 

if spiritual forces were to interact with the brain, we can't know because we've never measured anything that well yet.

You're thinking in terms of "spiritual force" as you call it, as a different order of physical force. That's the problem right there. As an example, we experience culture, and can see and observe culture manifest in social structures, even though it doesn't exist as a physical object. (I can't remember what it is) It is a manifestation of subjective realities. In fact, we can say this non-physical "force" is an object by the fact we interact with it by the fact it influences the material world, etc. So then the question is in a physical universe where does this influencing reality come from? Is it a product of atoms? Or is it a product of evolved mental 'forces'?

 

If mental 'forces' are part of reality as well as physical, and culture is an 'objective' manifest creation of an inter-subjective mental reality, and culture varies in form while the fact of culture does not, in the same way it seems an underlying reality binds and ties together all manifestations of form, and evolution, influenced and directed through the active relations of the subjective, inter-subjective, and objective spheres of all existence, through all stages of evolution or development in a great unfolding of something that 'doesn't exist' either. Where's the proof for Spirit? Where's the proof for culture?

 

Exactly. It's something we can't see, or measure. Yet we see its effects every day. There is a philosophical term for "something" that doesn't exist or rarely happens and yet it effects lots of peoples lives. How many people don't fly because they are afraid of plane crashes? Or an even better example in the vein of this site would be bibleGod. It's something we all have realized doesn't exist, except as a construct of our minds, and yet he has had one of the most profound impacts of any individual on human history.

So, are you saying that spirituality is a construct of the human mind, like culture? I've always viewed possible spirituality as something that would directly interfere with our perception. When we "Feel" spiritual, it is a chemical process in our minds. It is either placebo, or there is something triggering that feeling in our mind, a spiritual force, per se. But you seem to say its something else. Intoresting.

[Antlerman]

Or an even better example in the vein of this site would be bibleGod. It's something we all have realized doesn't exist, except as a construct of our minds, and yet he has had one of the most profound impacts of any individual on human history.

Biblegod, is an expression of humanity on many levels. In the sense that a child interprets and interacts with the world within his general developed mode of thought, his imagery with which he participates makes that an expression of that overall sense of reality. In this same sense, a world of reality based on a mental construction using a scientific, materialist foundation is equally a construct of our minds, just on a different level. One is a mythological construct, the other a rationalist construct. The world of a child is just as real to a child as the world is just as real to an adult.

 

My point of this though is that both of these two examples are created frameworks of understanding of existence itself to them. They both, the child and the adult, experience themselves first and foremost before any constructed framework of reality to describe that experience. The same is true of spiritual expression through various mythological frameworks, or other symbolic expressions. The confusion happens when the constructed framework becomes fused with the experience itself. Indeed it naturally does become part of the experience, because as humans we have a need to describe reality, to understand it mentally.

 

Where the whole Science vs. Religion debate finds it source of conflict, in my opinion, is that it itself conflates these ways of talking about the world, with the experience of the world itself, saying their particular way of talking about the world is this ONLY way. It's the True Gospel, the Real Reality, etc. Religion often takes the experience of its symbols themselves, as the thing itself. To 'believe' in the symbols, makes you a believer, and as a believer you experience being a believer, which gives its own meaning and experience. You defend the symbols, because they define your experience. This is the bane of Orthodoxy. The same can be said of any system of symbols, science included when used as your construct of reality through which you interact and experience the world. It is equally as "religious" in this sense, as opposed to simply being a tool of research.

 

To the simpler point though, all our constructed realities are expressions of our experience of reality at one level or another. So in this sense Biblegod is valid, but just not so in a rationalistic construction of our experience of reality. It was in fact a superior expression of reality than what preceded it, which was a superior express of what preceded that, which was a superior expression of what preceded that, and all the way back to when the world first opened its eyes to the night sky. Where we are today in those mental constructs likewise will be superseded in time by the next higher realization, which will have a higher mental construction, and so forth. None of those constructions, how we talk about our experience of being is the ultimate truth itself. Only simple being is. And that, to me, is the essence of spirituality. Existence, Being itself, alone with no constructs whatsoever. Beyond comprehension of mind, beyond descriptions, beyond words. Simple Being in fully awakened Mind.

 

So, are you saying that spirituality is a construct of the human mind, like culture?

Obviously not. I said culture is a comparison in the sense that it's not physical, not material, yet clearly does exist.

 

I've always viewed possible spirituality as something that would directly interfere with our perception. When we "Feel" spiritual, it is a chemical process in our minds.

Not interfere, but rather when we clear the debris of our constructs its nature can be more directly realized, until of course we try to bottle it into a religion. And yes, if we 'feel' it, it certainly engages the body and all its chemicals and whatnot. How else do we "feel"? But the feeling doesn't define it. The feeling is a response.

 

It is either placebo, or there is something triggering that feeling in our mind, a spiritual force, per se. But you seem to say its something else. Intoresting.

Certainly not a placebo, except when you confuse the interaction of mind with symbol sets with the experience of the undefinable. None of this is simple to tease out as its all intertwined together in our evolutionary growth as humans. Having some understanding of those interactions does help to get a little beyond all our constructed realities of "this is truth, no this is truth" claims. To me, the Truth is beyond all truths, and encompasses all truths. As Sri Aurobindo put it so well,

 

In emerging, therefore, out of the materialistic period of human Knowledge we must be careful that we do not rashly condemn what we are leaving or throw away even one tittle of its gains, before we can summon perceptions and powers that are well grasped and secure, to occupy their place. Rather we shall observe with respect and wonder the work that Atheism had done for the Divine and admire the services that Agnosticism has rendered in preparing the illimitable increase of knowledge. In our world error is continually the handmaid and pathfinder of Truth; for error is really a half-truth that stumbles because of its limitations; often it is Truth that wears a disguise in order to arrive unobserved near to its goal. Well, if it could always be, as it has been in the great period we are leaving, the faithful handmaid, severe, conscientious, clean-handed, luminous within its limits, a half-truth and not a reckless and presumptuous aberration.

 

Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine, pg 12,13

[lynx]

Sigh ....

 

I'm sorry to see this thread turning away from shared ideas about our new spirituality to more of a debate about whether "spirituality" is a valid concept, not that I think that is not a good question, but I was enjoying the discussion before, now it seems like more of a debate. I don't understand how "prove it" even got into this discussion, because I didn't see anyone here asserting anything as truth.

EDIT -- Thanks for splitting the thread and moving this to a new topic, Antlerman!

 

As for me, I've been leaning more toward spirituality being something that is exclusively a product of the brain, however (and that is a BIG "however"), I am not willing to discount that there could be something more to it. Nevertheless, I think the philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe had an interesting theory:

 

"Man is a tragic animal. Not because of his smallness, but because he is too well endowed. Man has longings and spiritual demands that reality cannot fulfill. Man requires meaning in a meaningless world".

 

I still explore spirituality. I just have not formed any absolute conclusions about it yet.

[Antlerman]

Nevertheless, I think the philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe had an interesting theory:

 

"Man is a tragic animal. Not because of his smallness, but because he is too well endowed. Man has longings and spiritual demands that reality cannot fulfill. Man requires meaning in a meaningless world".

 

I still explore spirituality. I just have not formed any absolute conclusions about it yet.

This makes me think of what the great philosopher Plotinus said,

 

“Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts.”

 

It is a precarious place, a world of existential angst.

[Noggy]

Nevertheless, I think the philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe had an interesting theory:

 

"Man is a tragic animal. Not because of his smallness, but because he is too well endowed. Man has longings and spiritual demands that reality cannot fulfill. Man requires meaning in a meaningless world".

 

I still explore spirituality. I just have not formed any absolute conclusions about it yet.

This makes me think of what the great philosopher Plotinus said,

 

“Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts.”

 

It is a precarious place, a world of existential angst.

 

 

I've wondered a lot why humans seem to have the yearning for meaning. How is that evolutionarily beneficial? Is it just a side effect of our self awareness that makes us so good at interacting with our enviroment? Or is it because there IS a meaning, but it's just too crazy for any of us to comprehend.

 

 

[Falloutdude]

 

 

 

I've wondered a lot why humans seem to have the yearning for meaning. How is that evolutionarily beneficial? Is it just a side effect of our self awareness that makes us so good at interacting with our enviroment? Or is it because there IS a meaning, but it's just too crazy for any of us to comprehend.

 

 

 

If we didn't have a yearning for meaning we wouldn't have any motivation to get better or learn new things. If we think there's something to be learned or there's some bigger picture, we will look for it, and in the process, we will see and understand how things work better, providing for a better chance to survive. By searching for why, we usually stumble across how. Ex "Why does the bush move with no wind? There's something moving it" Of course this is just a simplistic example, which made be flawed in it's logic, but it's something.

 

I've often been afraid that the christians were right for this one reason. There has to be something which breaks the laws of physics and our personal reality for something to come from nothing. Now this doesn't "prove" there's a god, only that something we don't understand had to happen in order to form what we do, if that makes any sense

[Ro-bear]

 

 

 

I've wondered a lot why humans seem to have the yearning for meaning. How is that evolutionarily beneficial? Is it just a side effect of our self awareness that makes us so good at interacting with our enviroment? Or is it because there IS a meaning, but it's just too crazy for any of us to comprehend.

 

 

 

If we didn't have a yearning for meaning we wouldn't have any motivation to get better or learn new things. If we think there's something to be learned or there's some bigger picture, we will look for it, and in the process, we will see and understand how things work better, providing for a better chance to survive. By searching for why, we usually stumble across how. Ex "Why does the bush move with no wind? There's something moving it" Of course this is just a simplistic example, which made be flawed in it's logic, but it's something.

 

I've often been afraid that the christians were right for this one reason. There has to be something which breaks the laws of physics and our personal reality for something to come from nothing. Now this doesn't "prove" there's a god, only that something we don't understand had to happen in order to form what we do, if that makes any sense

 

 

Then you must accept their premise that something came from nothing. I do not accept that premise. Perhaps there has been something all along.

[DesertBob]

... we experience culture, and can see and observe culture manifest in social structures, even though it doesn't exist as a physical object. It is a manifestation of subjective realities. In fact, we can say this non-physical "force" is an object by the fact we interact with it by the fact it influences the material world, etc.

The difference is that culture is something that is, relatively speaking, universally experienced and all the individuals involved in that experience are in substantial agreement about what that experience is and what it means. You and I can have a discussion about the movies we've seen this year and even if they are not the same movies it's still generically a shared experience about which we can both make certain assumptions.

 

With spirituality, on the other hand, your experience and mine happen to be quite different, to the point where I have difficulty even relating to your experience, which is almost entirely outside mine. I have not had the subjective experience of spirituality that you have; in fact, in a way, I've not had a subjective experience of spirituality at all. Whatever I had that passed for spirituality was a lot of unfounded beliefs and unwarranted hopes and expectations about how life and a presumed afterlife were supposed to function and how those things related to me and mine.

 

My point is that people have lively and largely congenial debate about culture, art, and the like without descending into debates whether those things even exist, because everyone experiences them in sufficiently similar and concrete ways that philosophy or metaphysics don't have to be invoked to discuss them. There are no aculturalists like there are atheists.

[DesertBob]

Nevertheless, I think the philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe had an interesting theory:

 

"Man is a tragic animal. Not because of his smallness, but because he is too well endowed. Man has longings and spiritual demands that reality cannot fulfill. Man requires meaning in a meaningless world".

 

I still explore spirituality. I just have not formed any absolute conclusions about it yet.

This makes me think of what the great philosopher Plotinus said,

 

“Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts.”

 

It is a precarious place, a world of existential angst.

Well Lynx, AntlerMan and DesertBob have just found common ground.

 

Where AM will doubtless part company with us is on the implications of this. Zapffe calls it a tragedy (I agree); Plotinus appears merely to observe it; AM probably celebrates it.

 

I can remember even as a teen thinking to myself that awareness is a terrible burden. I felt awake to things that everyone else seemed blissfully unaware of. The response of most of mankind seems to be to not look at reality, as it's too much to bear. The sages embrace it with abandon and let it carry them away to madness, or at least what others perceive as madness. I just resent being put in this position at all. I didn't choose it. I shouldn't have to either hide from it or cope with it. I should be a good fit for it. I should be in a position appropriate to my capabilities to perceive, understand, and interact. As it is, I am simply bewildered and stressed out by a reality I fundamentally am unfit for and unsuited to.

[DesertBob]

I've wondered a lot why humans seem to have the yearning for meaning. How is that evolutionarily beneficial? Is it just a side effect of our self awareness that makes us so good at interacting with our enviroment? Or is it because there IS a meaning, but it's just too crazy for any of us to comprehend.

My wife used to take this seemingly universal yearning as evidence of a greater spiritual reality. I simply took it as evidence that this uncomfortable feeling is a common feature of the human condition. It's what we all experience. We all experience breathing an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere and being subject to the same gravitational forces too, yet we don't attach metaphysical significance to those things. Why this?

 

Yearning implies unfulfilled desires, unrealized hopes. All the yearning means is we're all less than thrilled to be here. Who knew.

[DesertBob]

If we didn't have a yearning for meaning we wouldn't have any motivation to get better or learn new things.

Oh, really?

 

If I either understood or didn't care about the meaning of my life I would be much less distracted and could get a hell of a lot more done and enjoy the process more.

 

It seems to me that if you have meaning it GIVES you motivation. In those occasional moments where my life seems purposeful and meaningful, I'm filled with all kinds of motivation, hope, and encouragement.

 

The idea that we'd sit like bumps on logs if we didn't have this damnable restless oceanic yearning just doesn't make any sense to me, sorry. To the contrary, having that unfulfilled, hopeless feeling tends to leach all the life force right out of me.

[Vigile]

I would be much less distracted and could get a hell of a lot more done and enjoy the process more.

 

Clearly our friend is unfamiliar with the character Bluto from Animal House.

[VacuumFlux]

I can remember even as a teen thinking to myself that awareness is a terrible burden. I felt awake to things that everyone else seemed blissfully unaware of. The response of most of mankind seems to be to not look at reality, as it's too much to bear. The sages embrace it with abandon and let it carry them away to madness, or at least what others perceive as madness. I just resent being put in this position at all. I didn't choose it. I shouldn't have to either hide from it or cope with it. I should be a good fit for it. I should be in a position appropriate to my capabilities to perceive, understand, and interact. As it is, I am simply bewildered and stressed out by a reality I fundamentally am unfit for and unsuited to.

 

I just realized, reading this paragraph, that this feeling is why, although I greatly value my spiritual experiences and consider them to completely real in the sense that I really did feel that way and don't regret it, I remain a materialist. I would love for there to be something, anything, "out there" that cares about me, for there to be some Truth and Justice fundamental to reality. But my experiences all point in the direction that the universe doesn't care about me or anyone. Only we care.

 

Since I am human and love stories, here is my take on the story of "why" we exist:

 

The universe existed long before the Earth, and will exist long after humanity is dead. In the midst of unimaginably powerful forces of nature, one rock orbiting a nuclear fireball developed human life. Evolution only got us to the point of reproducing and survival. It "gave" (I can't even talk about this without anthropomorphizing, it's so built into my brain structure) us brain chemistry and neurons and learning and emotions.... but only because our ancestors were functional enough to survive to breed.

 

So here we are, intelligent and aware and full of longings that aren't problematic enough to kill us off. It is tragic, in a sense. But I don't like feeling depressed about it, so I choose to be a humanist. I think that the Truth and Justice I crave is something we can try to create for ourselves and for future humans. And the spiritual experiences I have mean a lot to me, because when my personal brain chemistry makes me feel more connected to the whole, to others, it changes the way I act. My dream, my hope, is that enough other people will have/pursue similar experiences so that it will change the way we view each other, thus changing the way we act, and creating a world/society/culture that is more satisfying than the one we have now. In that sense I do believe in the power of spirituality; I just think that it resides in us, not in an external force we tap into.

 

So it bothers me a little to hear something like "it's just brain chemistry". Because my entire identity, my being, is "just" brain chemistry. My logical deduction of materialism is brain chemistry. My spiritual experiences are brain chemistry. I feel uncomfortable when materialists dismiss spiritual experiences as "not real", because it is incredibly arrogant to tell another human being that their experiences are invalid (it's ok to disagree with the interpretation, but you cannot deny that a real human really felt that way). I also feel uncomfortable when more supernaturally-inclined people assume that since I am a materialist I cannot value those aspects of the human experience. (Note: neither of those statements are intended to refer to individuals on these boards, as quite often the discussions here are more nuanced than those two extremes, which makes me feel happy.)

[Noggy]

I've wondered a lot why humans seem to have the yearning for meaning. How is that evolutionarily beneficial? Is it just a side effect of our self awareness that makes us so good at interacting with our enviroment? Or is it because there IS a meaning, but it's just too crazy for any of us to comprehend.

My wife used to take this seemingly universal yearning as evidence of a greater spiritual reality. I simply took it as evidence that this uncomfortable feeling is a common feature of the human condition. It's what we all experience. We all experience breathing an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere and being subject to the same gravitational forces too, yet we don't attach metaphysical significance to those things. Why this?

 

Yearning implies unfulfilled desires, unrealized hopes. All the yearning means is we're all less than thrilled to be here. Who knew.

 

Because the force of gravity can be measured with the scientific method. Consciousness cannot. Consciousness is a first-person experience, and that is it. It cannot be ratified by a third person, and is therefore unscientific. We can see its effects, but we cannot see consciousness. This seems to be where science fails and spirituality comes in.

[Falloutdude]

If we didn't have a yearning for meaning we wouldn't have any motivation to get better or learn new things.

Oh, really?

 

If I either understood or didn't care about the meaning of my life I would be much less distracted and could get a hell of a lot more done and enjoy the process more.

 

It seems to me that if you have meaning it GIVES you motivation. In those occasional moments where my life seems purposeful and meaningful, I'm filled with all kinds of motivation, hope, and encouragement.

 

The idea that we'd sit like bumps on logs if we didn't have this damnable restless oceanic yearning just doesn't make any sense to me, sorry. To the contrary, having that unfulfilled, hopeless feeling tends to leach all the life force right out of me.

 

didn't mean to offend anyone, or imply i knew the purpose of it, just decided to post my thoughts at the moment/speculate

 

I do wish we didn't have to worry about this stuff, i get very angry because i'm not one of those people who can just let go of my questions and worries, at least not without sufficient answers. I didn't say it didn't screw us over in other places either, just that there are possible explanations for it's purpose

 

In regards to our existence having meaning. I like to feel like it does, however i can see nihilism in any "faith". This isn't necessarily the view i subscribe to, but when i hear christians say life without god would be meaningless, i have no problem presenting them with how their life could be also interpreted as meaningless. Ex: In the grand scheme of things (eternity) what does anything accomplish? There is no such thing as progress, things just are, it won't matter to god, to the universe, if we end up in hell or heaven (he's made it perfectly clear in his book he will easily be able to disassociate himself from us if we are "workers of iniquity"). However, what does it really matter? Any of it?Things go on, in comparison to eternity it doesn't serve or accomplish anything. In my mind it seems as if god (in the christian sense) is just trying to amuse himself by playing a little drama with his creations (ie the conflict between good and evil). Where whatever happens doesn't really "matter".

 

What we see as meaning only applies relative to a small window of time, if we were to compare it to a supposedly endless existence, the significance is minimal, if not virtually nonexistent.

 

Again this isn't the view i adopt, but i like to play "devil's advocate"

[Falloutdude]

shit i posted twice by accident...

 

You can delete posts. Check out that cute little "delete" button on the bottom right of it.

 

it doesn't pop up on mine... only "edit", "reply" and "multiquote"

 

Maybe it's because i'm on google chrome, idk