Greatest I am Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Faith without works and proof is false faith. Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other. Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven. Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost. The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it’s theology and being saved on works. Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population. People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required. Without works, will Christianity die? Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough? What was it that James told Peter. Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man’s faith because they know for certain of God’s reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 DL The problem with the definition of works varies much too. Most churches, works is church activities and very few are charitable from my experience. There are of course some that do reach out to the needy but may with an agenda of evangelizing. There is the third option you are saved by grace, IOW it is already done and no more effort on our part. Were that remotely true, a simple sinner's prayer would do the trick and then you could fail to attend church, pray, whatever and still be saved. Suggest this concept to any woo, and they will give you countless reasons why you should be "seen" to be involved. But the babble even suggest we can make shit up as we go along when we are supposed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The NT is so well composed there are proof texts to support any frigging doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 DL The problem with the definition of works varies much too. Most churches, works is church activities and very few are charitable from my experience. There are of course some that do reach out to the needy but may with an agenda of evangelizing. There is the third option you are saved by grace, IOW it is already done and no more effort on our part. Were that remotely true, a simple sinner's prayer would do the trick and then you could fail to attend church, pray, whatever and still be saved. Suggest this concept to any woo, and they will give you countless reasons why you should be "seen" to be involved. But the babble even suggest we can make shit up as we go along when we are supposed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The NT is so well composed there are proof texts to support any frigging doctrine. I agree. The bible can be made to say damned near anything. That is likely why, to me, it is one of the best books to study if you are wanting to think and learn. Now if the Christians would only learn. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless. Faith, in a Biblical context, is by definition, completely unable to be based on proof. I cite Hebrews 11:1-3 and 6. My (former) pastor encouraged me to think about Hebrews 11:6 that we must believe in God in order to please God. It seemed that he was asking me to suspend my thinking abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 13, 2011 Moderator Share Posted July 13, 2011 I was taught that faith alone in Jesus would get you to heaven. We were also taught that good works were part of being a christian, but, it was when you counted and trusted on these good works to get you to heaven......... you would lose your 'brownie points' in gods eyes. So basically - why do anthting? It isn't supposed to gain 'favor' with god? Except the fact that we are nice, kind, loving people and we try to do the right thing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 It took me at least 20 years to realize that belief alone cannot possibly "save". Belief does not automatically translate into practice, either. Christians live in such a seemingly neat box, but there are a lot of messy holes in that box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless. Faith, in a Biblical context, is by definition, completely unable to be based on proof. I cite Hebrews 11:1-3 and 6. My (former) pastor encouraged me to think about Hebrews 11:6 that we must believe in God in order to please God. It seemed that he was asking me to suspend my thinking abilities. All shysters want us to stop thinking. Easier to fleece the sheeple that way. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 I was taught that faith alone in Jesus would get you to heaven. We were also taught that good works were part of being a christian, but, it was when you counted and trusted on these good works to get you to heaven......... you would lose your 'brownie points' in gods eyes. So basically - why do anthting? It isn't supposed to gain 'favor' with god? Except the fact that we are nice, kind, loving people and we try to do the right thing!!! One of the oddities of Christianity. Even if a saint, if you happen to be good and follow the wrong God, too bad. Straight to hell if you do not have the right brand. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Since they don't have strong community, probably because of modern times, they really don't offer much at all. It's really just little social groups for people brought up in it. They also see works as things like proselytizing and getting sinners into heaven. I don't think that's going to die, fundamentalism doesn't seem to be changing, but maybe thats just because I see it a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Since they don't have strong community, probably because of modern times, they really don't offer much at all. It's really just little social groups for people brought up in it. They also see works as things like proselytizing and getting sinners into heaven. I don't think that's going to die, fundamentalism doesn't seem to be changing, but maybe thats just because I see it a lot. I see all aspects of religion on a downward slide to oblivion. Too slow, but a good trend. For more speed, more non-believers must join the battle. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I guess I saw it from a different point of view. I thought the point was to take jesus as the example, but I guess the problem is that is not an objective thing but something everyone looks at in their own way. I got some ideas that other christians didn't get. I never thought the whole point of christianity was to convert the world whilst still remaining an ego driven prick. I thought the whole point was one's own self development to become more of god and less of yourself. I thought a lot of things but the other christians didn't agree. I expected that the love I felt for others came from some external source and that anything I did for others, I did as an outworking of that inner feeling, not some kind of point building process. I have a weird little mind, I like doing the right thing and have never had to fight with myself not to do bad stuff. I have made a couple of glaring errors but mostly I am a boring little goody goody. I used to think it was some kind of a christian thing, but I realise now some people are just born that way, but most aren't. I found with the majority of christians that humility, which I found to be the lynch pin of christianity, means nothing. Their friendships are shallow, and usually only exist as long as one contines to conform to group norms. They don't think for themselves, and if an individual is treated badly by the church leaders, even if that person is a friend they will say nothing even if they know what is happening is wrong. There is no real heart or commitment to valuing others in it. and that is why people are walking away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 I guess I saw it from a different point of view. I thought the point was to take jesus as the example, but I guess the problem is that is not an objective thing but something everyone looks at in their own way. I got some ideas that other christians didn't get. I never thought the whole point of christianity was to convert the world whilst still remaining an ego driven prick. I thought the whole point was one's own self development to become more of god and less of yourself. I thought a lot of things but the other christians didn't agree. I expected that the love I felt for others came from some external source and that anything I did for others, I did as an outworking of that inner feeling, not some kind of point building process. I have a weird little mind, I like doing the right thing and have never had to fight with myself not to do bad stuff. I have made a couple of glaring errors but mostly I am a boring little goody goody. I used to think it was some kind of a christian thing, but I realise now some people are just born that way, but most aren't. I found with the majority of christians that humility, which I found to be the lynch pin of christianity, means nothing. Their friendships are shallow, and usually only exist as long as one contines to conform to group norms. They don't think for themselves, and if an individual is treated badly by the church leaders, even if that person is a friend they will say nothing even if they know what is happening is wrong. There is no real heart or commitment to valuing others in it. and that is why people are walking away. Well put. I think that originally Jesus was to be emulated. Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Instead of doing this, sacrificing ones self for others, Christians decided to use Jesus as their scapegoat and would rather try to profit from the murder or self aggrandizing suicide of an innocent man. Talk about corruption of ideas. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeasabird Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 When I actually sat down and read the bible recently I was astonished by 1 Kings 18. It blows out of the water two modern apologetics, first that you shouldn't challenge God, and second that you can determine the correct 'living' god by the one who is willing and able to give clear signs that he is real. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 When I actually sat down and read the bible recently I was astonished by 1 Kings 18. It blows out of the water two modern apologetics, first that you shouldn't challenge God, and second that you can determine the correct 'living' god by the one who is willing and able to give clear signs that he is real. Correct. God, or his law, without, presence and enforcement, are irrelevant. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SummerMoon Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Yes, I have issue with it too. Saved by faith and not of works, has been twisted. The faith that is needed is intention, of your spirit, and your character works. The works they talk about you are not saved by is the Jewish law because it is not done with the heart, also you are not saved by accomplishment works either, nor status or popularity, or looks, or physical strength. They hate me when I say this, that we learned this in elementary school. That goodness is of the heart, and not of an outward show. We all learn in public schools, that the people that are very accomplished and have accomplishment works can be total jerks and we all know this, that they have a bad heart. We all strive to get good grades and outer accomplishments but we don't think that this means we have a good heart. andWhen you do good deeds, did you do them to be seen or was it from the heart. They have twisted what we already know into total confusion, into apathy, into no cause and effect. And they never have to account for their actions of character themselves. When I hear "no you don't have to do anything, and in fact, it is all filthy rags all the good you do because its pride, only the finished work of Christ counts. We can't do anything.... it really defies all common sense whether you believe in God or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SummerMoon Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Christianity is not what Christ taught at all. It defies your conscience to judge people as evil because they simply aren't a christian. The church never gave me peace at all, it took it away. It confused me where I was not confused before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Theology as taught by churches today would confuse any intelligent person. Some of the more progressive ones are not so bad. Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. Martin Luther Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has. Martin Luther Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaToOmega Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 It took me at least 20 years to realize that belief alone cannot possibly "save". Belief does not automatically translate into practice, either. Christians live in such a seemingly neat box, but there are a lot of messy holes in that box. When you live in a box you need lots of holes in it so you don't suffocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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