I Need Help.

[chosendarkness]

I just want to know what I actually believe. All this fence sitting is making my ass hurt. The day that I can take a stand for something and know why is the day I look forward to. I'm definitely nowhere near that point yet. I don't even know who I am as a person. The smallest details, how I should act, how I should talk, what kind of music I should listen to. I have no idea who I am or what I believe in. I'm wasting away trying to figure that out, only coming to more questions than I had in the first place. I have not yet begun living my life, as these questions are getting in the way.

 

There's no rules on how you should be, just do whatever you like. What music do YOU like? Can't think of anything, then forget about music. What other things do you like? Do whatever excites you the most. Of course there are basic rules, like don't masturbate in public. Don't have sex with someone unless you have their permission. Don't try to kill people that upset you. But you're probably smart enough to know that much. Just do whatever YOU want. That's the great thing about not being a religious slave anymore, you're free!

[Kaiser01]

I just want to know what I actually believe. All this fence sitting is making my ass hurt. The day that I can take a stand for something and know why is the day I look forward to. I'm definitely nowhere near that point yet. I don't even know who I am as a person. The smallest details, how I should act, how I should talk, what kind of music I should listen to. I have no idea who I am or what I believe in. I'm wasting away trying to figure that out, only coming to more questions than I had in the first place. I have not yet begun living my life, as these questions are getting in the way.

 

 

i know how you feel, i really really do and i must say there is no set definition for who you are to be. DO NOT think of your life needing to be defined by some set doctrine thats what religion does and what it has evolved to do over time. you decide who YOU WANT TO BE not what some politician at a pulpit says. you need to take it slow, dont try to over do it. i felt like you did i was on fire for god and jesus and one day it all just disapeared and when it did i became depresed, angry and dead to the world. i needed the drug and i couldent feel it.

 

when it comes to "running back to Jesus" i recomend you dont, your brains nuerons are arranged based on the influnces around you and so by running back to the religion you may "feel somthing" but its a stimulation of the brain (like a drug). when i stoped "feeling god" i continues to run to the thing that hurt me the most for over a year and it drove me through the worst depresion i have ever had. i was actualy pretty happy when i found out the religion was false as i no longer had to be afriad or sad any more.

 

i really sugest taking a GOOD look at history and the evolution of cultures in order to see how christianity is jsut simply another part of a history and a idea that has evolved in difrent societies. it is no more real than islam, mormanism or hinduism. have you ever noticed how some religions are similar to one another? thats becuase the idea of god evolves with changing sociteties and changing ideals. thats why mormonism has many of the same ideas as christianity becuase it was a evolution of the idea. this generaly happens regionaly where there is more comunication within a society, thats why Islam, christianity and judeaism is so similar it was in the same region (more comunication than with asia and their religions). once you relise that religion is just another part of history and NOT REAL it all becomes so much easier. good luck

[DamnedSoul]

There's no rules on how you should be, just do whatever you like. What music do YOU like? Can't think of anything, then forget about music. What other things do you like? Do whatever excites you the most. Of course there are basic rules, like don't masturbate in public. Don't have sex with someone unless you have their permission. Don't try to kill people that upset you. But you're probably smart enough to know that much. Just do whatever YOU want. That's the great thing about not being a religious slave anymore, you're free!

 

True, but if I take advantage of that freedom to a certain extent, that does nothing but give the fundies their ammunition, "proving" their point that "he just left because he wanted to sin." Not that I give a damn what they think, but it almost reinforces that thought in my own mind also.

[DamnedSoul]

i know how you feel, i really really do and i must say there is no set definition for who you are to be. DO NOT think of your life needing to be defined by some set doctrine thats what religion does and what it has evolved to do over time. you decide who YOU WANT TO BE not what some politician at a pulpit says. you need to take it slow, dont try to over do it. i felt like you did i was on fire for god and jesus and one day it all just disapeared and when it did i became depresed, angry and dead to the world. i needed the drug and i couldent feel it.

 

when it comes to "running back to Jesus" i recomend you dont, your brains nuerons are arranged based on the influnces around you and so by running back to the religion you may "feel somthing" but its a stimulation of the brain (like a drug). when i stoped "feeling god" i continues to run to the thing that hurt me the most for over a year and it drove me through the worst depresion i have ever had. i was actualy pretty happy when i found out the religion was false as i no longer had to be afriad or sad any more.

 

i really sugest taking a GOOD look at history and the evolution of cultures in order to see how christianity is jsut simply another part of a history and a idea that has evolved in difrent societies. it is no more real than islam, mormanism or hinduism. have you ever noticed how some religions are similar to one another? thats becuase the idea of god evolves with changing sociteties and changing ideals. thats why mormonism has many of the same ideas as christianity becuase it was a evolution of the idea. this generaly happens regionaly where there is more comunication within a society, thats why Islam, christianity and judeaism is so similar it was in the same region (more comunication than with asia and their religions). once you relise that religion is just another part of history and NOT REAL it all becomes so much easier. good luck

 

What you said about religion evolving over time, that's a good point. Hard to believe Christianity came from Judaism, as they're nothing alike. Old Testament and New Testament are nothing alike. The gods of both texts are nothing alike. Not only that, but look at how Christianity itself has evolved over time. Yesterday's church vs. today's church. Compare Jonathan Edwards to Joel Osteen. Not even remotely similar.

[chosendarkness]

There's no rules on how you should be, just do whatever you like. What music do YOU like? Can't think of anything, then forget about music. What other things do you like? Do whatever excites you the most. Of course there are basic rules, like don't masturbate in public. Don't have sex with someone unless you have their permission. Don't try to kill people that upset you. But you're probably smart enough to know that much. Just do whatever YOU want. That's the great thing about not being a religious slave anymore, you're free!

 

True, but if I take advantage of that freedom to a certain extent, that does nothing but give the fundies their ammunition, "proving" their point that "he just left because he wanted to sin." Not that I give a damn what they think, but it almost reinforces that thought in my own mind also.

 

They sin by not living how they want. Fundies don't achieve anything, they don't do any worthwhile art, they don't let themselves think, they live in fear and are losers. Doing what you want takes guts. Being controlled by the fear of life is easy. Taking responsibility for your own life is hard. That's why they'll tell you that you just want to sin, because they don't have the guts to stand up and doing anything with their lives. They hide being their beliefs and pretend to be important. People will always try to hold you down if you're one of the few that decides to live.

[DamnedSoul]

They sin by not living how they want. Fundies don't achieve anything, they don't do any worthwhile art, they don't let themselves think, they live in fear and are losers. Doing what you want takes guts. Being controlled by the fear of life is easy. Taking responsibility for your own life is hard. That's why they'll tell you that you just want to sin, because they don't have the guts to stand up and doing anything with their lives. They hide being their beliefs and pretend to be important. People will always try to hold you down if you're one of the few that decides to live.

 

Yeah, I can agree with that.

[chosendarkness]

They sin by not living how they want. Fundies don't achieve anything, they don't do any worthwhile art, they don't let themselves think, they live in fear and are losers. Doing what you want takes guts. Being controlled by the fear of life is easy. Taking responsibility for your own life is hard. That's why they'll tell you that you just want to sin, because they don't have the guts to stand up and doing anything with their lives. They hide being their beliefs and pretend to be important. People will always try to hold you down if you're one of the few that decides to live.

 

Yeah, I can agree with that.

 

You can find your happiness, just don't be afraid to follow your heart and trust your own judgement. It took me a long time to start listening to myself and believing the things I thought. I kept them hidden because they weren't what everyone else thinks and so I tried to push them away. Believe in yourself and be true to yourself is about the best advice I can give. That's a sin to who won't think for themselves, but we don't have to be like them. They don't have any power of you unless you give it to them.

[DamnedSoul]

You can find your happiness, just don't be afraid to follow your heart and trust your own judgement. It took me a long time to start listening to myself and believing the things I thought. I kept them hidden because they weren't what everyone else thinks and so I tried to push them away. Believe in yourself and be true to yourself is about the best advice I can give. That's a sin to who won't think for themselves, but we don't have to be like them. They don't have any power of you unless you give it to them.

 

Good advice.

[asanerman]

I have the growing conviction that Christianity has perpetuated a disease (sin) in order to offer a cure.

 

The core of the Christian tradition has always insisted upon the impotence and bondage of the human will. It says "You can't heal yourself." Your only hope is in accepting God through Christ, which is an exterior medium of transformation. Any exterior medium of transformation fosters a passive-dependent style of life in which the responsibility for personal growth is evaded.

 

We know that at the heart of psychopathology--at the heart of "illness" is the impotent child screaming "I can't. You do it for me."

 

From personal experience I can say that when healing began for me it was when I said, I'm responsible for my own feelings, my actions, and my style of life. In spite of parents, family, friends or culture, I alone can make the decision to establish a way of life that is satisfying. There is no saviors, no magic. My final dignity is in my ability to choose my style of life.

 

When Christianity collapsed for me I discovered, with help, that the history which I had taken as the basis of my identity was fallible. I realized that I had ignored who I was by accepting the history of another. I realized that my growth depended on my locating that which heals within the soil of my own experienceable history and not in the history of Jesus. I had to find my own story!

 

Anne Valley-Fox has said "one's life comes and gets one sooner or later." I would add the sooner the better!

[DamnedSoul]

I have the growing conviction that Christianity has perpetuated a disease (sin) in order to offer a cure.

 

The core of the Christian tradition has always insisted upon the impotence and bondage of the human will. It says "You can't heal yourself." Your only hope is in accepting God through Christ, which is an exterior medium of transformation. Any exterior medium of transformation fosters a passive-dependent style of life in which the responsibility for personal growth is evaded.

 

We know that at the heart of psychopathology--at the heart of "illness" is the impotent child screaming "I can't. You do it for me."

 

From personal experience I can say that when healing began for me it was when I said, I'm responsible for my own feelings, my actions, and my style of life. In spite of parents, family, friends or culture, I alone can make the decision to establish a way of life that is satisfying. There is no saviors, no magic. My final dignity is in my ability to choose my style of life.

 

When Christianity collapsed for me I discovered, with help, that the history which I had taken as the basis of my identity was fallible. I realized that I had ignored who I was by accepting the history of another. I realized that my growth depended on my locating that which heals within the soil of my own experienceable history and not in the history of Jesus. I had to find my own story!

 

Anne Valley-Fox has said "one's life comes and gets one sooner or later." I would add the sooner the better!

 

I agree. They tell us we're born with a disease that's our own fault, when that would be essentially us paying for the sins of our fathers. More than once when I talk to Christians, they'll say every one of us would have made the same decision Adam and Eve did, to disobey God and eat the fruit, and I'm just thinking.... Dude, speak for yourself, I can make my own damn decisions. And besides that, why the hell did God put this tree right in the middle of the garden anyway? And why let the snake in there, if he knew that would screw everything up? None of it makes any fucking sense. I know that, I've always known that, and I acknowledge it. Yet... still a part of me almost expects that I need to believe in these myths. It's not just the fear of hell talking, it's something else, and I'd like to figure out what exactly it is. My brain is half and half, partly pro Christianity, and partly anti Christianity.

[RankStranger]

I remember you, CI. Are you still stuck in Mississippi with your fundy parents? That alone would be enough to loosen my grip on sanity (well, my fundy parents are in Tennessee... which is like Mississippi with bigger hills).

 

OCD is a bitch- particularly when it gets mixed up with religion. Lots of people come through here with that particular cocktail of mental illness- it's like christianity is DESIGNED to prey on that kind of uncertainty and fear.

 

IMO you're going to have to learn to trust your own judgement. And you're going to have to get yourself out of that fucked up environment where you're constantly being preached at and/or manipulated. Unless and until you can do those things, you're likely to remain trapped in your own personal hell.

 

I do have a suggestion for working out what you believe, though:

 

Argue. Debate. See if you can shoot down other folks' ideas. Put your ideas out there and see if they can be shot down. This is why we have the Lion's Den and the Colosseum sections. For me, that's how I refine what I believe- whether we're talking about religion, technical questions, politics, science, etc. Personally I rarely bother with christians these days except occasionally to amuse myself- because the matter is settled as far as I'm concerned. I can't imagine any scenario in which I'll once again beleive in christianity's magical sky-daddy. But it took time to get there. Over time I learned that christians can rarely if ever back up their beliefs with a concise argument without logical fallacies.

 

And how COULD they? They're defending a self-contradictory invisible magic sky-being who is pissed because some woman in a fairy-tale ate the magic fruit 'cause the talking snake told her to. It's fucking ridiculous.

[paul34]

^^ To further that, sometimes, you can go onto youtube or on google and search out certain pro-Christian things along the lines of apologetics. I did a few days ago for Deut 22: 23-24 (a raped woman must marry her rapist). Up to this point, I hadn't seriously delved into more specific apologies (is that the right word?). I had to really look at it, but it wasn't long until I realized it had nothing going for it. Assumptions, really reaching, and ultimately, just flat-out ignoring things that would be inconvenient for their point.

 

Yesterday, I delved a bit into the historical evidence for Jesus. You often hear xtians saying that there is a ton of extra-biblical evidence for Jesus - they act is if Jesus DEFINITELY existed as verified by all historians. I had to find out if that was really the case (even though Jesus' existence does nothing as far as proving xtianity). Well, nope. Their case was pretty blown up. And I read the xtian apologists articles and watched some of the more popular videos on youtube. They make leaps, assumptions, and jumps. It really is quite ludicrous.

 

I agree. Sometimes, if you feel up to it, put yourself "out there." Challenge yourself from the other side. You may end up being genuinely challenged - at which point, you can exercise your brain and build your reasoning skills and come out of the experience stronger than when you went in. This is never a bad thing.

 

Also, yes, POCD can make this whole thing much worse. I also have POCD and this whole deconversion thing has ended up, somewhat, as a POCD thing. But you just have to be careful. Practice mindfulness. If you let the POCD catch on onto a new compulsion, it'll only build. Try to stop it early on.

[DamnedSoul]

I remember you, CI. Are you still stuck in Mississippi with your fundy parents? That alone would be enough to loosen my grip on sanity (well, my fundy parents are in Tennessee... which is like Mississippi with bigger hills).

 

I do live with my parents, yes, but I am by no means "stuck." I don't remember exactly what I said in the past about that situation, but I'm sure I over-exaggerated. Besides that, I'm not in the exact frame of mind that I was then. I don't lay any blame on my parents for this. I brought this on myself. Sure, they laid the foundation and taught me about the Bible, as any Christian parents would, but they were never legalistic or hateful about it. Today, they don't preach at me or shove anything down my throat. I'm an adult, and they know that. When the subject of religion comes up, I don't say much anyway. Not much of a point in it. Why purposefully start a divisive argument that gets everyone pissed off? They're not swaying me, I'm not swaying them. It's pointless. But anyway, my undoing came when I started studying the faith seriously for myself, looking at things through my own eyes, interpreting the Bible for myself, shedding the Southern Baptist view that I was raised with. My parents didn't cause any of this. I did.

 

OCD is a bitch- particularly when it gets mixed up with religion. Lots of people come through here with that particular cocktail of mental illness- it's like christianity is DESIGNED to prey on that kind of uncertainty and fear.

 

For sure.

 

IMO you're going to have to learn to trust your own judgement. And you're going to have to get yourself out of that fucked up environment where you're constantly being preached at and/or manipulated. Unless and until you can do those things, you're likely to remain trapped in your own personal hell.

 

My own personal hell is my mind. Hard to get out of that. But, on the subject of getting out of the environment that I'm familiar with... For the first time in my life, instead of wallowing around in my own self pity, sitting on my ass expecting things to magically come together, expecting others to feel sorry for me, being too damn lazy to even bother moving forward... I actually have begun to devise a plan. I haven't done anything yet, but I do have a plan. I'm sick of listening to the voice in the back of my head that says I'm not good enough, that I'll never succeed ay anything... I raise my middle finger to that voice and say fuck it. I can and I will succeed. And if I fall, I'll get back up and try again.

 

I do have a suggestion for working out what you believe, though:

 

Argue. Debate. See if you can shoot down other folks' ideas. Put your ideas out there and see if they can be shot down. This is why we have the Lion's Den and the Colosseum sections. For me, that's how I refine what I believe- whether we're talking about religion, technical questions, politics, science, etc. Personally I rarely bother with christians these days except occasionally to amuse myself- because the matter is settled as far as I'm concerned. I can't imagine any scenario in which I'll once again beleive in christianity's magical sky-daddy. But it took time to get there. Over time I learned that christians can rarely if ever back up their beliefs with a concise argument without logical fallacies.

 

And how COULD they? They're defending a self-contradictory invisible magic sky-being who is pissed because some woman in a fairy-tale ate the magic fruit 'cause the talking snake told her to. It's fucking ridiculous.

 

You're right. I rarely am in a situation where I can actually debate with someone without holding back, mainly due to my poor face to face speaking skills. But when I do, I find that it does reinforce the things that I know I believe, however few those things may be.

[DamnedSoul]

^^ To further that, sometimes, you can go onto youtube or on google and search out certain pro-Christian things along the lines of apologetics. I did a few days ago for Deut 22: 23-24 (a raped woman must marry her rapist). Up to this point, I hadn't seriously delved into more specific apologies (is that the right word?). I had to really look at it, but it wasn't long until I realized it had nothing going for it. Assumptions, really reaching, and ultimately, just flat-out ignoring things that would be inconvenient for their point.

 

Yesterday, I delved a bit into the historical evidence for Jesus. You often hear xtians saying that there is a ton of extra-biblical evidence for Jesus - they act is if Jesus DEFINITELY existed as verified by all historians. I had to find out if that was really the case (even though Jesus' existence does nothing as far as proving xtianity). Well, nope. Their case was pretty blown up. And I read the xtian apologists articles and watched some of the more popular videos on youtube. They make leaps, assumptions, and jumps. It really is quite ludicrous.

 

I agree. Sometimes, if you feel up to it, put yourself "out there." Challenge yourself from the other side. You may end up being genuinely challenged - at which point, you can exercise your brain and build your reasoning skills and come out of the experience stronger than when you went in. This is never a bad thing.

 

Also, yes, POCD can make this whole thing much worse. I also have POCD and this whole deconversion thing has ended up, somewhat, as a POCD thing. But you just have to be careful. Practice mindfulness. If you let the POCD catch on onto a new compulsion, it'll only build. Try to stop it early on.

 

I agree. I find that when I go back to that mindset, actually looking for reasons to defend Christianity, it just makes me think "...wow, this is bullshit." Yet, I can't quite find peace about it. It's not enough for me to just say "Ok, religion sucks, I'm gonna just go live my life and do what I want. I don't know what the truth is and I don't care." Sure, that's the easiest path, but it feels vain and empty. And I can't quite find any worldview I fully agree with yet, religious or non religious. Not much makes sense. So I don't know what direction to go in at all.

[RankStranger]

You're right. I rarely am in a situation where I can actually debate with someone without holding back, mainly due to my poor face to face speaking skills. But when I do, I find that it does reinforce the things that I know I believe, however few those things may be.

 

Well that's what internet forums are for. Like Grandpa Harley said once: "Internet forums are a gift to the slow-witted." You've got all the time you need to compose your thoughts and spell out your argument.

[DamnedSoul]

Well that's what internet forums are for. Like Grandpa Harley said once: "Internet forums are a gift to the slow-witted." You've got all the time you need to compose your thoughts and spell out your argument.

 

Exactly.

[The Truth Seeker]

Damned soul you appear to me to be in the initial stages of deconverting. That's where things are most confusing. For me, deconverting was and is the most important decision in my life. It was a life and death decision. Since I only knew religion based on what I was taught or heard in my early years, I decided that I needed to study this issue to the best of my ability. I didn't want to come up uncertain about what to do and take the easy way out. So I studied for 5 years solid. Every day. I read every book I could find and every article. I read all of Bart Ehrman's books, Sam Harris's books, Dan Barker, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennet and Richard Dawkins. I have also read Christian writings such as those from the Jesus Seminar,Richard Swinburne, and William Lane Craig. Admitteldly I have read more non-theist books than theist, but I pretty much know the Christian story.

 

So if you're still feeling uncertain and confused, it's because you haven't studied enough. When I came out of my 5 year study there was never a question or doubt about what the right decision was. I don't feel bad about my decision and, in fact, it has freed me from a lot of fears I had before I deconverted. If and when I die, I will die knowing I made the right decision in rejecting Christianity and all other religions. When you reach that point you are there. You should know the answer to every question or doubt that's still on your mind. Take those questions and doubts one by one and study them until you get your answer. If you find the Christian story the most correct then you should not look back. I seriously doubt that that will be the case.

[paul34]

I agree. I find that when I go back to that mindset, actually looking for reasons to defend Christianity, it just makes me think "...wow, this is bullshit." Yet, I can't quite find peace about it. It's not enough for me to just say "Ok, religion sucks, I'm gonna just go live my life and do what I want. I don't know what the truth is and I don't care." Sure, that's the easiest path, but it feels vain and empty. And I can't quite find any worldview I fully agree with yet, religious or non religious. Not much makes sense. So I don't know what direction to go in at all.

 

That is normal. The entire structure you built your worldview on before has completely collapsed. You'll have to start over. And remember, you can't just toss off a lifetime of brainwashing in a few days or even weeks. It'll take time.

 

I also second to read things. Right now I'm reading Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winelle, but I had just finished End of Faith by Sam Harris, which was a very good read from which I learned a good bit. I've also watched Richard Dawkin's documentary version of the God Delusion. That was informative as well. If you haven't, watch the "Atheist Tapes" (I think). I think you can find it in parts on youtube, or as one/two files on google video. I think it's called "a brief history of atheism" there or something similar. That was a nice, brief look at, well, the history of atheism.

 

Lined up, I have The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (a respected figure of mine) and A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

 

also, go on youtube and explore dawkins, hitchens, et al videos. Look at some of the publishers listed in the "top five youtubers" thread somewhere around here.

 

It'll get better. Just keep pushing forward, with a resolve and determination - something you already have (otherwise you wouldn't be here as a deconvert).

[chosendarkness]

My own personal hell is my mind. Hard to get out of that. But, on the subject of getting out of the environment that I'm familiar with... For the first time in my life, instead of wallowing around in my own self pity, sitting on my ass expecting things to magically come together, expecting others to feel sorry for me, being too damn lazy to even bother moving forward... I actually have begun to devise a plan. I haven't done anything yet, but I do have a plan. I'm sick of listening to the voice in the back of my head that says I'm not good enough, that I'll never succeed ay anything... I raise my middle finger to that voice and say fuck it. I can and I will succeed. And if I fall, I'll get back up and try again.

 

Definitely go with that feeling. That's extremely positive and shows you already ARE standing up for yourself because you believe in yourself. I envy you deconverting young, you'll have a lot of time to do what you want in life and will probably get a lot of out of life. Much more than if you had stayed trapped in fundamentalism. Really great post!

 

I know the personal hell. You guys are lucky you have the internet, when I went through this there was no one at all to talk to. Even then I still made through. It gets better as you keep thinking for yourself and sharing your thoughts and how you feel.

[DamnedSoul]

Damned soul you appear to me to be in the initial stages of deconverting. That's where things are most confusing. For me, deconverting was and is the most important decision in my life. It was a life and death decision. Since I only knew religion based on what I was taught or heard in my early years, I decided that I needed to study this issue to the best of my ability. I didn't want to come up uncertain about what to do and take the easy way out. So I studied for 5 years solid. Every day. I read every book I could find and every article. I read all of Bart Ehrman's books, Sam Harris's books, Dan Barker, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennet and Richard Dawkins. I have also read Christian writings such as those from the Jesus Seminar,Richard Swinburne, and William Lane Craig. Admitteldly I have read more non-theist books than theist, but I pretty much know the Christian story.

 

So if you're still feeling uncertain and confused, it's because you haven't studied enough. When I came out of my 5 year study there was never a question or doubt about what the right decision was. I don't feel bad about my decision and, in fact, it has freed me from a lot of fears I had before I deconverted. If and when I die, I will die knowing I made the right decision in rejecting Christianity and all other religions. When you reach that point you are there. You should know the answer to every question or doubt that's still on your mind. Take those questions and doubts one by one and study them until you get your answer. If you find the Christian story the most correct then you should not look back. I seriously doubt that that will be the case.

 

I get what you're saying. I do have one question, though. During those 5 years that you hadn't decided what you believed, how did you handle your personal life decisions? The reason I ask is, that's the one thing I'm struggling with the most. Personally, I'm fine with temporary uncertainty. Hell, even permanent uncertainty. But if a person hasn't decided whether or not their former religion is true or not, how do they know what decisions they should make? I'm talking both the big and small questions. How is it possible to take a stand for anything in that position?

[DamnedSoul]

That is normal. The entire structure you built your worldview on before has completely collapsed. You'll have to start over. And remember, you can't just toss off a lifetime of brainwashing in a few days or even weeks. It'll take time.

 

I also second to read things. Right now I'm reading Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winelle, but I had just finished End of Faith by Sam Harris, which was a very good read from which I learned a good bit. I've also watched Richard Dawkin's documentary version of the God Delusion. That was informative as well. If you haven't, watch the "Atheist Tapes" (I think). I think you can find it in parts on youtube, or as one/two files on google video. I think it's called "a brief history of atheism" there or something similar. That was a nice, brief look at, well, the history of atheism.

 

Lined up, I have The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (a respected figure of mine) and A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

 

also, go on youtube and explore dawkins, hitchens, et al videos. Look at some of the publishers listed in the "top five youtubers" thread somewhere around here.

 

It'll get better. Just keep pushing forward, with a resolve and determination - something you already have (otherwise you wouldn't be here as a deconvert).

 

I've read Leaving the Fold and most of The God Delusion, and I've read something by Thomas Paine, but I don't know if it was The Age of Reason.

[DamnedSoul]

Definitely go with that feeling. That's extremely positive and shows you already ARE standing up for yourself because you believe in yourself. I envy you deconverting young, you'll have a lot of time to do what you want in life and will probably get a lot of out of life. Much more than if you had stayed trapped in fundamentalism. Really great post!

 

I know the personal hell. You guys are lucky you have the internet, when I went through this there was no one at all to talk to. Even then I still made through. It gets better as you keep thinking for yourself and sharing your thoughts and how you feel.

 

I think the reason it took me so long is because I've always been sheepish, depending on others telling me how I should be. Letting go of religion, I finally see that I have to take responsibility for my own life, because no invisible man in the sky is going to do it for me. And that can be a scary realization. The thought that I could easily make a wrong decision and fuck up my own life, or someone else's. But hey, I guess that's life.

[AlphaToOmega]

ooops.

[DamnedSoul]

Well that's what internet forums are for. Like Grandpa Harley said once: "Internet forums are a gift to the slow-witted." You've got all the time you need to compose your thoughts and spell out your argument.

 

Exactly.

 

Or for those that have high intelligence but have speech impediments or motor neuron disease or social issues or live surrounded by prejudice or those who live in countries where speaking your mind may land you in jail or dead. Its however far simpler to ignore these and many other reasons in favour of increasing self esteem. I took about 90 seconds to write that but I had the thoughts already formed before reading the end of the sentence that was quoted. Is that fast enough to be considered fast witted or am I slow witted? It took 90 seconds because I'm currently having my shoulder cramp and its making my typing slow due to the considerable pain. Am I now dumber becasue I have a physical injury? Is intelligence now measured by how fast we spit out an argument or the depth of the argument itself?

 

 

Einstein was a retard considering the length of time it took to develop his theories. Newton, a moron.

Great works of authors are now delegated to rantings of idiots because they could not write an epic novel that changes the thinking of generations simply based on the time it took to create the work.

 

Why is it that some demand everything fast and think its the better because of its arrival time or its gestation time?

 

High class restaurants are a gift to chefs who cannot cook quickly. That way they can take their time to prepare a tasty healthy meal at their leisure.

McDonalds is better than. Its fast. You order it and in minutes its there.

 

 

No longer sounds right somehow...

 

But ignore my reasoned response.

I'll make it fast witted instead.

 

OMFGZzzzz!!11!!!111

Grandpa FTW!!!111!1

 

The way I took it, it was aimed at me, not everyone in general who can't form a detailed response quickly. That's why I agreed with it.

[AlphaToOmega]

 

 

The way I took it, it was aimed at me, not everyone in general who can't form a detailed response quickly. That's why I agreed with it.

 

Unfortunately I got that after you read it but I deleted it too late.

mea culpa.