Josefe Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Two questions for you Christians that believe people are going to hell. How do you justify believing people are going to hell without feeling hypocritical and immoral? The bible has issues that are irreconcilable: Contradictions, scribal errors, forgery/fraud, and disgusting immoral acts. How can you believe in such a place when the very book you got those ideas from have these issues? Such a belief would require divine evidence, which you don't have. The only thing you have is a book riddled with issues. How can you not feel like a hypocrite? Furthermore, to accuse someone of going to such a place is immoral. How can you believe that someone will burn for eternity. It takes a sick, disgusting, immoral, diluted ( brainwashed perhaps) person to accept such a thing. This is exactly why your "holy god" is absolutely disgusting. How can you not feel immoral? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatBallou Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 As a former xian, I can say it's easy. God said it. Therefore, repeat often and don't think about the ramifications. It's all about cult mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 As a former xian, I can say it's easy. God said it. Therefore, repeat often and don't think about the ramifications. It's all about cult mentality. Just imagine if I told someone they were going to spend eternity in a place of unmanageable pain and torture for eternity if they didn't believe what I did. I'm sure they would be insulted and absolutely appalled at such a statement. But if a Christian says it, then it is no big deal. It's like they have a free pass to say some horrific things. I am not going to stand back and listen to it anymore, it's fucken rude. I guess my hope is that they step back and look at their source, a book riddled with issues. Jesse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Christian: Accept Jesus and you will go to heaven, rule the universe with him.... Mafia Don: Sign this contract and you will be apart of my gang and nobody will ever bother you and you will have money and all you have to do is a few 'Favors'. Christian: Reject Christ and you go to Hell. Mafia Don: Reject my offer and you will find yourself in the bottom of the river in concrete shoes. What is the difference? Good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Christian: Accept Jesus and you will go to heaven, rule the universe with him.... Mafia Don: Sign this contract and you will be apart of my gang and nobody will ever bother you and you will have money and all you have to do is a few 'Favors'. Christian: Reject Christ and you go to Hell. Mafia Don: Reject my offer and you will find yourself in the bottom of the river in concrete shoes. What is the difference? I guess it comes down to whether humans have the ability to be morally self-correcting. What need is there to be morally self correcting if there are no rules or morals? Edit: Who BUT God, would have the ability to say we are going to hell? What set of rules would be all incompassing except for "love your neighbor"? Natual law.....we going to live by natural law without morality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Christian: Accept Jesus and you will go to heaven, rule the universe with him.... Mafia Don: Sign this contract and you will be apart of my gang and nobody will ever bother you and you will have money and all you have to do is a few 'Favors'. Christian: Reject Christ and you go to Hell. Mafia Don: Reject my offer and you will find yourself in the bottom of the river in concrete shoes. What is the difference? I guess it comes down to whether humans have the ability to be morally self-correcting. What need is there to be morally self correcting if there are no rules or morals? Edit: Who BUT God, would have the ability to say we are going to hell? What set of rules would be all incompassing except for "love your neighbor"? Natual law.....we going to live by natural law without morality? Apparently you believe "Morality can't exist without a god." That is but another failed argument by ignorant Christians. I think Christopher Hitchens demonstrates the flaw of this argument best in the video under. Sure, your all powerful god can say what ever the hell he wants, but is it justified.Your god is nothing more than a hypocritical tyrant, how can he judge me. Your god drowned the entire world and killed all the Egyptian first born, etc. If he is to hold me for sins, I think he should be held to the same bar, if not higher.To say or send me to hell for my minor sins, as oppose to his killing, is hypocritical. For a god to even create a place is simply disgusting. That is besides the point though, I am directing my question to those Christians that think they can tell me i'm going to hell. Lets keep this on topic. Jesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Apparently you believe "Morality can't exist without a god." I don't believe I said that... Sure, your all powerful god can say what ever the hell he wants, but is it justified. Suppose God does exist...does not the "Potter" have the right to whatever he feels with the clay? Please pardon the Christian-eze, just that it makes the point. The chef could bake his cake permanently in the oven I suppose. Your god is nothing more than a hypocritical tyrant, how can he judge me. Again, if He's there, and he made you, and set the rules for morality, then He can judge you. Your god drowned the entire world and killed all the Egyptian first born, etc. If he is to hold me for sins, I think he should be held to the same bar, if not higher.To say or send me to hell for my minor sins, as oppose to his killing, is hypocritical. For a god to even create a place is simply disgusting. The how is condeming Him any different? That is besides the point though, I am directing my question to those Christians that think they can tell me i'm going to hell. Lets keep this on topic. To be very honest Jesse, I don't think it is a good thing that this happens. There has been a whole generation, the baby-boomer Church of Christers that have heard the same message. I think it does much harm. Sometimes I don't know that people have the means for a better motivation than that.....it seems unfortunate. Anyway, welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Apparently you believe "Morality can't exist without a god." I don't believe I said that... Sure, your all powerful god can say what ever the hell he wants, but is it justified. Suppose God does exist...does not the "Potter" have the right to whatever he feels with the clay? Please pardon the Christian-eze, just that it makes the point. The chef could bake his cake permanently in the oven I suppose. Your god is nothing more than a hypocritical tyrant, how can he judge me. Again, if He's there, and he made you, and set the rules for morality, then He can judge you. Your god drowned the entire world and killed all the Egyptian first born, etc. If he is to hold me for sins, I think he should be held to the same bar, if not higher.To say or send me to hell for my minor sins, as oppose to his killing, is hypocritical. For a god to even create a place is simply disgusting. The how is condeming Him any different? That is besides the point though, I am directing my question to those Christians that think they can tell me i'm going to hell. Lets keep this on topic. To be very honest Jesse, I don't think it is a good thing that this happens. There has been a whole generation, the baby-boomer Church of Christers that have heard the same message. I think it does much harm. Sometimes I don't know that people have the means for a better motivation than that.....it seems unfortunate. Anyway, welcome. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you were referring to needing god for there to be morals. Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean when you say "What need is there to be morally self correcting if there are no rules or morals?" Suppose there was an all powerful god, of course he can do whatever he wants. But, suppose there was a holy all powerful god, can he do whatever he wants? A holy god cannot do whatever he wants, he is bound by the very thing he is, "holy." There is no immoral thing he can do, or he wouldn't be holy. So, if this holy god was to condemn me to hell, he would have to be holy. How then can this hypocritical god justify sending me to hell for my minor offense (existing), but yet ignore the major offenses he has committed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 God: I love people without condition. God as Jesus: You will never perish on the condition that you believe in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 24, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted July 24, 2011 What Right Do You Think You Have To Tell Me I'm Going To Hell? It is seen as a duty to warn and inform the lost. If you have been brainwashed to truly believe in Hell, you would do anything to keep others from going there. Considering the stakes (as they believe them to be), offending people is of little consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you were referring to needing god for there to be morals. Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean when you say "What need is there to be morally self correcting if there are no rules or morals?" Suppose there was an all powerful god, of course he can do whatever he wants. But, suppose there was a holy all powerful god, can he do whatever he wants? A holy god cannot do whatever he wants, he is bound by the very thing he is, "holy." There is no immoral thing he can do, or he wouldn't be holy. So, if this holy god was to condemn me to hell, he would have to be holy. How then can this hypocritical god justify sending me to hell for my minor offense (existing), but yet ignore the major offenses he has committed? I hear you. Answering the last question first......I think this assumes we know what holiness is, as well as our ability to see the larger picture. (Keep in mind the Bible says we don't see the big picture). I don't believe this to be a stretch because I can't even place myself truly in anothers shoes/position enought to have perfect empathy for them......so placing myself in a position of "knowing the larger picture" on a cosmic level is really reaching. Long story short, I think that is why we rely on faith in a certain direction, that of good or love, in our pursuit of life. Granted Christianity, as I understand it, places that faith in Jesus and not just doing good without belief in Jesus. But it does offer up some questions....if one pursues good, what would be the difference other than Jesus. To the first question, I haven't thought it out too well to be honest, but truth and holiness IMO, seems more like a straight line, where we, or society, seems to be more on a sinusoildal path moving back and forth across that line. In other words, I believe there are a set of truths that are constant/linear vs. the variation upon those.......but again, the variations correct themselves back towards the constant over time. One could also ask themselves whether humanity itself is evolving morally to some perfection. I don't have the anwsers Jesse, but enjoy the discusssion on occasion. Thanks for the response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 What is the difference? Mafia Don is a more successful template for a movie series, and still less violent than "The Passion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 What Right Do You Think You Have To Tell Me I'm Going To Hell? It is seen as a duty to warn and inform the lost. If you have been brainwashed to truly believe in Hell, you would do anything to keep others from going there. Considering the stakes (as they believe them to be), offending people is of little consequence. I agree, it is their indoctrinated duty to tell me i'm headed to hell, but, what real justification is there. The question I have brought up may be relatively simple to answer, but it has a twist. I am calling out those Christians that are intelligent enough to see that it is simply hypocritical and immoral to say those things. I don't take it lightly anymore, to tell someone they are going to hell is immoral, hypocritical, and absolutely insulting. To be honest, It almost seems like Ex-Christians are conditioned to put up with it. There should be a real out cry about this bullshit, and there isn't. Just look, over 200 views, but less then 20% respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 My fundy mom almost started a fight with street preachers the other day. They were the usual, screaming at passersby through a bullhorn about how displeased god is with their sin and how they're going to hell. My mom found them offensive and wanted to go up to them and challenge them with "and you think god is pleased with you?!" but didn't. I'm kinda disappointed; it would have been fun to watch her go off on people I dislike. She wanted to tell them that the point of the gospel is grace and they sure weren't showing any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you were referring to needing god for there to be morals. Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean when you say "What need is there to be morally self correcting if there are no rules or morals?" Suppose there was an all powerful god, of course he can do whatever he wants. But, suppose there was a holy all powerful god, can he do whatever he wants? A holy god cannot do whatever he wants, he is bound by the very thing he is, "holy." There is no immoral thing he can do, or he wouldn't be holy. So, if this holy god was to condemn me to hell, he would have to be holy. How then can this hypocritical god justify sending me to hell for my minor offense (existing), but yet ignore the major offenses he has committed? I hear you. Answering the last question first......I think this assumes we know what holiness is, as well as our ability to see the larger picture. (Keep in mind the Bible says we don't see the big picture). I don't believe this to be a stretch because I can't even place myself truly in anothers shoes/position enought to have perfect empathy for them......so placing myself in a position of "knowing the larger picture" on a cosmic level is really reaching. Long story short, I think that is why we rely on faith in a certain direction, that of good or love, in our pursuit of life. Granted Christianity, as I understand it, places that faith in Jesus and not just doing good without belief in Jesus. But it does offer up some questions....if one pursues good, what would be the difference other than Jesus. To the first question, I haven't thought it out too well to be honest, but truth and holiness IMO, seems more like a straight line, where we, or society, seems to be more on a sinusoildal path moving back and forth across that line. In other words, I believe there are a set of truths that are constant/linear vs. the variation upon those.......but again, the variations correct themselves back towards the constant over time. One could also ask themselves whether humanity itself is evolving morally to some perfection. I don't have the anwsers Jesse, but enjoy the discusssion on occasion. Thanks for the response. Just to clear something up No, the bible specifically says to be "holy", like god is holy. Therefore, even the bible assumes people know what holiness is. Furthermore, there is a definition for holiness in our dictionary, that means we know .I am not trying to explain the "larger picture", but I am addressing a clear contradiction. How can a holy god justify condemning me when he has clearly committed far more sins than I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 My fundy mom almost started a fight with street preachers the other day. They were the usual, screaming at passersby through a bullhorn about how displeased god is with their sin and how they're going to hell. My mom found them offensive and wanted to go up to them and challenge them with "and you think god is pleased with you?!" but didn't. I'm kinda disappointed; it would have been fun to watch her go off on people I dislike. She wanted to tell them that the point of the gospel is grace and they sure weren't showing any. Street preachers are the worse of the Christians. They bluntly stand on the street and tell people they are going to hell. I have learned to ignore them because it is pointless. It would just be a big screaming match until I punched him in the face.You mother may not be the Christians to condemn people like that, but i'm sure she still believes in hell. To me, even the belief in such a place is immoral. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Just to clear something up No, the bible specifically says to be "holy", like god is holy. Therefore, even the bible assumes people know what holiness is. Furthermore, there is a definition for holiness in our dictionary, that means we know .I am not trying to explain the "larger picture", but I am addressing a clear contradiction. How can a holy god justify condemning me when he has clearly committed far more sins than I have. Let me substitue via your definition: How can a god that knows justify condemning me when he has clearly committed far more sins than I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 25, 2011 Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2011 Edit: Who BUT God, would have the ability to say we are going to hell? We do end, we put ourselves in hell......... I think from the beginning of time, when man started to get very conscious, there was an instinctive, built in guilt button that told us when we were doing something wrong, like stealing from your neighbour........... I think from the beginning of time when the thunders roared and you thought it was a nasty god giving his angry message - you then made up the concept of this sky god and his punishments.When those volcanoes spewed out fire and smoke from under the earth, I feel that they just assumed that if the sky god was angry, this is where they would land up and maybe forever. Always, in my life (in and out of christianity) even when I had the assurance that I was fully saved and would NEVER lose that salvation, if I would do real good, I felt that god would bring me to heaven , but if I had a bad day and the 'sinning' wouldn't stop - I felt doomed to hell. We put ourselves in hell end................. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Always, in my life (in and out of christianity) even when I had the assurance that I was fully saved and would NEVER lose that salvation, if I would do real good, I felt that god would bring me to heaven , but if I had a bad day and the 'sinning' wouldn't stop - I felt doomed to hell. Not every one feels this way. I never felt doomed. I had no problem with that part of "once saved, always saved" because it was very simple. My issues were always with god not living up to his other promises. He never had an opportunity to be absent for the ultimate promise of heaven, that was untestable other than by putting a gun to my head or something. I think the power of guilt varies by person. I've always been aware of my own mistakes and failings but also of the fact that at any given moment I was doing the best I could with the light I had. Maybe, it comes from being raised by non-shaming parents. Somehow even when I saw judgmental ideas and behaviors in the church it never seemed directed at me, only at really gross sinners outside the group who never seemed real to me. It helped that I grew up in suburban and rural areas and didn't have to step over winos on my way to school every morning like my fiancee did ... there was always this abstract world of gross sinners and degrading behaviors that I felt completely separate from. I'm not saying this is all good. I probably had a sense of entitlement that I could have done without, I don't know. All I'm saying is that feeling personally guilty and ashamed is not inescapable, even in the evangelical world. It's a function of your personality tendencies, your upbringing, and the exact nature of the theology you're plied with (the presence or absence of the doctrine of eternal security of the believer, for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I had no problem with that part of "once saved, always saved" because it was very simple. You were lucky. I was raised in a Nazarene church, that believed you could lose your salvation. Fear of losing my salvation was the highlight of my youth, as was laying awake at night contemplating the meaning of eternity. That's probably why I still feel an affinity to this site more than 20 years after my deconversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 Essentially what a Christian means when they tell someone they are going to hell is: you will burn for eternity in a fiery,disgusting, loud, terrifying, horrifying, agonizing,unmanageable place because you don't believe what I do. And then these Christians actually thinks he/she has a right to get offended when a person disagrees.They not only have no right to get offended, the person they just condemned to hell has a right to be insulted .I think that affords anyone the right to punch a christian in the face. But to avoid jail time a water ballon in the face will do too. Jesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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