Darklady Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 So some muslins women have started this Obedient Wives Club, this is significant to not only muslin women but all women, many conservative christian groups will sit up and take notice (without endorsing polygamy). This is an outrage to women everywhere, the violation of women because they are women continues almost unabated throughout the world, women must stand up against this submissive crap, and start demanding that they are treated as equals in their marriages/partnership. http://www.care2.com/causes/obedient-wives-club-opens-in-indonesia.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul34 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Those women won't stand up precisely because of this: “Islam compels us to be obedient to our husband. Whatever he says, I must follow. It is a sin if I don’t obey and make him happy,” said one woman. If you are a Muslim female, you have no choice. If you get seduced by Western liberalism, then that's your problem - the Koran specifically mentions that nonbelievers will try to tempt you with their ways, but you must resist and stay true. This type of result is inevitable. Prevent prostitution and divorce? Ok, let's say that is even possible... but at what cost? But none of that matters. All that matters is that you follow Allah's commandments and trust him, because otherwise you are a nonbeliever. And we all know what the penalty for apostasy in islam is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 24, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted July 24, 2011 Women have the right to do whatever they want except be obedient? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Women have the right to do whatever they want except be obedient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I don't know. I am becoming more and more cynical. If they want to be obedient, why not? Either be obedient to a boss or to a husband. Only difference is sex. Either way seems most have to be obedient somewhere down the line. Unless you are independently wealthy. Maybe your husband is well off and you are a nice obedient wife and get it all when he dies. Worth it? Maybe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul34 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I don't know. I am becoming more and more cynical. If they want to be obedient, why not? Either be obedient to a boss or to a husband. Only difference is sex. Either way seems most have to be obedient somewhere down the line. Unless you are independently wealthy. Maybe your husband is well off and you are a nice obedient wife and get it all when he dies. Worth it? Maybe. Yes but you don't risk physical reprise from your boss for disobeying him, nor do you risk divine reprise for the same. You do if you're a married muslim female living in a conservative muslim culture. If it wasn't for the fairy tale, these women wouldn't be doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklady Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 I don't know. I am becoming more and more cynical. If they want to be obedient, why not? Either be obedient to a boss or to a husband. Only difference is sex. Either way seems most have to be obedient somewhere down the line. Unless you are independently wealthy. Maybe your husband is well off and you are a nice obedient wife and get it all when he dies. Worth it? Maybe. Well, I can see where you are coming from, I on the other hand, find the club demeaning to women, and I fear for the already millions of women who are beaten, raped, the child brides, the controlled and the abused. And I intend to do something about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 My X married a fundy who "put her in her place". When our kids were still living with her I couldn't even ask her a question about our children without having to wait 3 days for an answer and then the answer was always prefaced with, "In Marks wisdom..........." My youngest has hooked up with the same type from a different church. They hadn't been dating for 6 months and he had already taken over her finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherace Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I don't know. I am becoming more and more cynical. If they want to be obedient, why not? Either be obedient to a boss or to a husband. Only difference is sex. Either way seems most have to be obedient somewhere down the line. Unless you are independently wealthy. Maybe your husband is well off and you are a nice obedient wife and get it all when he dies. Worth it? Maybe. That's like saying if they want to be abused let them be abused. They're stuck in their situation, or at least they feel stuck, I doubt very much there are many people who enjoy a life of absolute submission. I think you can see evidence of that in the Arab Spring, that women are speaking out and actively involved in protests says to me that they don't want to just do as their told when their lives are at stake. As Darklady pointed out, there is a lot of real physical abuse and violence when it comes to women being forced into this type of life, I know young Muslim women personally who have been abused in really fucking awful ways, and they felt they had to endure it because of their family's religion. And most never choose it, they're born into it, with an abusive father who abuses in the name of religion and then the woman immediately goes to a husband who does the same, very few are able to break free from the cycles of abuse even when religion is not a factor. I think it's important to present them with the choice of not being obedient. Maybe they just don't know they have that choice, or they're too scared to make it, but with enough encouragement and support they eventually can. I'm often cynical too, but I refuse to be silent when I can at least speak against what is inhumane (and that also includes bad work conditions and corporate overlords, btw). It may not make a difference, but it might, and I know doing nothing will absolutely do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Never been obedient in my life. Don't intend to start now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 25, 2011 Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2011 A lot of us girls are really just like those women - except, we don't cover our heads up.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Pantherace, your lecture is unnecessary. I told you I am cynical, which means I am well aware of the injustice of submission to a man. I don't like or condone abuse of any type - but I have seen and experienced abuse a number of times in my life and its a fact whether I like it or not. Being a submissive wife for a woman with no education or means to get a job could be better than homeless and starving on the street. Many women have very limited options in life. That's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklady Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Never been obedient in my life. Don't intend to start now. Good for you Gal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklady Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Pantherace, your lecture is unnecessary. I told you I am cynical, which means I am well aware of the injustice of submission to a man. I don't like or condone abuse of any type - but I have seen and experienced abuse a number of times in my life and its a fact whether I like it or not. Being a submissive wife for a woman with no education or means to get a job could be better than homeless and starving on the street. Many women have very limited options in life. That's all I'm saying. Sometimes it's hard to know its abuse until someone else points it out, and then, only if you are ready to hear it. When you are brought up brainwashed, you think this is all there is. The internet is opening up a whole new window for many women, admittedly slowly, but it will spread. I want to help it spread, not just for muslin women, but for all the christian women, and others, that are living in abusive situations. If being abused is a better alternative to getting out, we need, no, its beyond a need, its essential, imperative, that we, those who have escaped, and those who may never been abused, or are not abusers, make it better for them, society must not stand by and let this happen. Deva, this is not a lecture at you, but I am so passionate about this, we cannot let abuse happen and stand by without speaking out, offering solutions and responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 So some muslins women have started this Obedient Wives Club Reminds me of The Total Woman by Marabel Morgan, an evangelical tome from way back in the 1970's. Anyone old enough to remember that? I seem to recall Normal Lear doing a takeoff on it, a short-lived TV show with gender reversals where a submissive husband is trying to live up a book called The Manly Man. When he got upset he'd pick up the phone and call Dad and bawl at him. Did a good job of provoking thought. I know it made an impression on my (at the time) teenage brain. --Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 25, 2011 Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2011 So some muslins women have started this Obedient Wives Club Reminds me of The Total Woman by Marabel Morgan, an evangelical tome from way back in the 1970's. Anyone old enough to remember that? I seem to recall Normal Lear doing a takeoff on it, a short-lived TV show with gender reversals where a submissive husband is trying to live up a book called The Manly Man. When he got upset he'd pick up the phone and call Dad and bawl at him. Did a good job of provoking thought. I know it made an impression on my (at the time) teenage brain. --Bob I read that book a hundred times Bob! I wanted to be the perfect wife. I also followed the christian book - 'Fascinating Womanhood' which promoted that you stay with your man even if he hit you!! It's only right now at this part of my life that I have removed my 'invisible head cover'!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherace Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Pantherace, your lecture is unnecessary. I told you I am cynical, which means I am well aware of the injustice of submission to a man. I don't like or condone abuse of any type - but I have seen and experienced abuse a number of times in my life and its a fact whether I like it or not. Being a submissive wife for a woman with no education or means to get a job could be better than homeless and starving on the street. Many women have very limited options in life. That's all I'm saying. Well the way you said it sounded more like apathy than cynicism. I can even understand both, but making a point to publicly declare yourself apathetic or that it's all hopeless just seems counter productive, especially for an issue that obviously effects people personally. Feel free to be cynical and/or apathetic, from a place where you obviously have the right to do so when so many aren't because of their home lives or even countries where they are censored, but don't bring others down with you. Just because it's going on doesn't mean we should all accept it. If so many are forced into either abuse or poverty then maybe we should also do something about a society which has no other means of support. And I've known women who have rather faced the difficulties of economic hardship than continue to be in such a bad home environment, that should still be their choice to make too even if not ideal. And sorry, but if speaking my mind against sexism, abuse, and injustice makes me a bad guy then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 25, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2011 I read that book a hundred times Bob! I wanted to be the perfect wife. At that time, wouldn't you have felt angry and cheated if you had been prevented from reading it and pursuing your desire to be what you understood to be "the perfect wife?" Did you feel you had the right to choose that path? Would you consider it a religious freedom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 26, 2011 Moderator Share Posted July 26, 2011 I read that book a hundred times Bob! I wanted to be the perfect wife. At that time, wouldn't you have felt angry and cheated if you had been prevented from reading it and pursuing your desire to be what you understood to be "the perfect wife?" Did you feel you had the right to choose that path? Would you consider it a religious freedom? Florduh, it was just sooooo promoted in the church to be the most wonderful christian wife. We had womans meetings about how to look after your man..........I really thought god would approve...I never did make it ! Every now and again my too rebellious, feisty personality told them to fuck off and get out of my face............................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 26, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted July 26, 2011 My point was that you were entitled to the choice, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 26, 2011 Moderator Share Posted July 26, 2011 My point was that you were entitled to the choice, that's all. Florduh, I honestly didn't feel (or know) that I had a choice back then - I thought it WAS the right thing to do.................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 That is the main reason I was in trouble all the time in church because I believed that everyone was equal, and further that any guy who wanted to throw his weight around and have power over someone he was supposed to love was missing the whole point of christianity. I think its fucked up to want anyone submitting to you, except maybe your children and only because they can't look after themselves until a certain age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I read that book a hundred times Bob! I wanted to be the perfect wife. At that time, wouldn't you have felt angry and cheated if you had been prevented from reading it and pursuing your desire to be what you understood to be "the perfect wife?" Did you feel you had the right to choose that path? Would you consider it a religious freedom? Florduh, you're right in saying, in essence, to each their own. I don't know that anyone is wanting to outlaw free speech, simply to counter one point of view forcefully with another. More or less what Obama utterly failed to accomplish in tonight's television address :-\\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 My point was that you were entitled to the choice, that's all. Florduh, I honestly didn't feel (or know) that I had a choice back then - I thought it WAS the right thing to do.................................. LOL! I was going to add in my reply to Florduh that my main objection to countering this kind of thinking is that no one in thrall to it will listen anyway! But I didn't want to sound defeatist. It is true that Lear's satire on it made an impression and planted a seed with me. There's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 That is the main reason I was in trouble all the time in church because I believed that everyone was equal, and further that any guy who wanted to throw his weight around and have power over someone he was supposed to love was missing the whole point of christianity. I think its fucked up to want anyone submitting to you, except maybe your children and only because they can't look after themselves until a certain age. To be fair, it's not clear (to me at any rate) that this "women are weak and incapable" meme isn't much older than Christianity. I'm not sure Christianity created it; simply leveraged and nurtured it. Regardless, I think modern society / technology has leveled the playing field between the sexes in ways that are new and positive. It's a little like the way totalitarian governments find it hard to keep people ignorant because of the free flow of knowledge. It's not all there yet, but I am hopeful that we're making some real progress against patriarchal constructs. I suspect that in the minority of societies that are matriarchal, the same thing is happening for men :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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