Feeling Called Back To The Church

[Legion]

Just go back until you don't want to be there. Then leave. No need for drama. Just do what you feel.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

[Outlaw393]

LOL, thanks for the video. That's a good song.

 

Unfortunately the only thing around here is conservative christianity. Lutherans and Catholics mostly. The only church I want to deal with is Pentecostal, and quite conservative. But they're also accepting of more liberal people like me.

 

While I am less apt to believe in a hell, or satan, I do believe there are darker energies and spirits and such around. Not everything is friendly or all "love and light".

 

To the replier that said his/her experience with life left them with no faith, I say, I feel kinda sorry for you. I generally tend to take my spirituality for granted, my knowledge of things behind the veil. I have seen things and experienced things that have proven to me that there is a life after death. If you don't believe that, well you haven't experienced what I have and that's ok. It's really up to you what you want to believe. Some people are more open to those sort of things, and some aren't. That's just the way humans are I guess.

 

To all repliers, thanks for your replies. I am amazed at the variety of responses. Some trying to disprove my faith or turn me from it. Why turn me from something that gives me hope? Even if it is "fake" to you. Some people encouraged me to go back to what makes me happy. Some indifferent.

 

I'm planning on making my debut tonight at the evening service.

 

[Brother Jeff]

LOL, thanks for the video. That's a good song.

 

Unfortunately the only thing around here is conservative christianity. Lutherans and Catholics mostly. The only church I want to deal with is Pentecostal, and quite conservative. But they're also accepting of more liberal people like me.

 

While I am less apt to believe in a hell, or satan, I do believe there are darker energies and spirits and such around. Not everything is friendly or all "love and light".

 

To the replier that said his/her experience with life left them with no faith, I say, I feel kinda sorry for you. I generally tend to take my spirituality for granted, my knowledge of things behind the veil. I have seen things and experienced things that have proven to me that there is a life after death. If you don't believe that, well you haven't experienced what I have and that's ok. It's really up to you what you want to believe. Some people are more open to those sort of things, and some aren't. That's just the way humans are I guess.

 

To all repliers, thanks for your replies. I am amazed at the variety of responses. Some trying to disprove my faith or turn me from it. Why turn me from something that gives me hope? Even if it is "fake" to you. Some people encouraged me to go back to what makes me happy. Some indifferent.

 

I'm planning on making my debut tonight at the evening service.

 

 

Because that hope is false hope, and because we care, and because we don't want to see you get hurt by a dangerous cult.

 

You could find a much healthier place to make your debut than at a church full of holy-roller nutjobs. If there's one around there, try a Unitarian or Unitarian Universalist church. You'll find a much saner atmosphere and probably some great people too.

 

Just my 2 cents. In any case, I wish you the best.

[florduh]

Sad, really.

[Deva]

I can't help but see a Pentecostal church as a step backwards in spiritual development, Outlaw, although of course I don't know you personally. This is a rather extreme manifestation of protestant Christianity that only appeals to the emotions and condemns outsiders as "sinners". But maybe that is what you want right now. You say they are accepting of liberals but are you sure that isn't just to drag people in? I would be skeptical of that.

 

Best wishes whatever you decide to do.

[Noggy]

herp derp

[Antlerman]

I can't help but see a Pentecostal church as a step backwards in spiritual development, Outlaw, although of course I don't know you personally. This is a rather extreme manifestation of protestant Christianity that only appeals to the emotions and condemns outsiders as "sinners". But maybe that is what you want right now. You say they are accepting of liberals but are you sure that isn't just to drag people in? I would be skeptical of that.

 

Best wishes whatever you decide to do.

I'm late to the party but I don't think it matters. Everyone fumbles their way through to something they're looking for, and it is anything but a perfect straight line! As you know I share the same church-home as Outlaw does, those Oneness Pentecostal fundamentalists of the UPCI. It was the church organization I graduated Bible College in on my way into the ministry with them.

 

I guess I'll offer myself as an example of someone who actually had to take this 'step backwards' in my spiritual development (I fully agree with you that is true), in order to lay some basic structures for me that we lacking in my life. One thing I've come to learn is that if we somehow missed some stage of growth in our lives that is necessary in order to move on effectively to the next, we may have to go back and learn what we missed, at least enough so in order to build on it and replace it with something more mature, more developed.

 

People are usually quite surprised to learn I was in a Pentecostal church, but it was apparently necessary for me. I needed strong structures, boundaries, rules, confident views, etc for where I was at at the time. But in it all, there was my heart that persisted always through it to the point that when I was ready to keep going, I went through the very difficult stage of casting off that cocoon to be able to emerge into where I needed to go next. And that can be said also for where I went next, until where I am now, and so on.

 

Is regression a destiny? I actually seriously doubt it. If I am any example, anyone who is actually struggling within themselves to where to turn to, that something inside is relentless. To be attracted like a moth to those who claim Truth! Truth! Truth!, is understandable for those who are in a place that still has appeal, but ultimately it will not be satisfied.

 

Truth on that level isn't in facts (and in that area they certainly lack that, not that it really matters), but it's in peace. It's in a fluid balance of heart and mind in the world. It's something you know, not in having the right reading of some holy book, nor in having all the statistics and empirical evidences of science. It's something that you come to when you're ready, it seems. And they irony is you never needed to look. But our growth seems more about coming to that place of knowing. It can't be taught, only realized.

[Tealeaf]

Outlaw,

 

I've had the experience of being with a Pentecostal girl on and off various times over the years. Most recently, it was a year long relationship. I've experienced Pentecostal churches, rallies, youth groups, the people, the mindset, etc. because of it. I have never been religious, so you can imagine how BATSHIT FUCKING INSANE it all appeared to me. But I did my homework and knew what to expect (to an extent, you have to experience it first hand ).

 

What's wrong with believing in something that gives you hope? For one, it SEVERELY fucks people in the head. Religion - the higher the dose - actively encourages compartmentalization of the mind. It puts up all sorts of walls. The wall mentality bleeds into every aspect of life. It let's you believe all sorts of crazy things that your rational self would normally cry out "BULLSHIT!" for. It's self-destroying.

 

Why get your hope from ancient middle-eastern bullshit? Are you aware of what life is like over there, with people even more high as fuck on religion? War. War. War. Violence. Hate. Never ending conflict. What good is that? If I lived in a "civilization" like that....all I'd hope for is death....so I could live with my sky daddy and not have to bear the shitacular life created by religion doing what it does best: divide and destroy. And that's all Christianity is really: a death cult. You are supposed to suffer here, so it all pays off when you die! What kind of evil, twisted hope is that?

 

I'll give you a million bucks....but not until you've already left town forever. No, I'm not showing you bank statements. No, I have no one to vouch for me. No contracts or anything. Just, trust me....

 

Back to the Pentecostal experience. See, because I was raised in a completely open-minded environment, I was allowed to look at religion on my own for what it really is my whole life. So rather than be taken aback at the opportunity to experience the drug first hand, I do what I love doing in life and explored the experience. I wanted to experience people getting high on this widespread drug myself. Hell, I even felt it in the atmosphere myself. The HYPE. The fuzzywuzzy warm feeling. The glee. The afterglow. I watched grown adults jump and sing like children. But it doesn't stop at church. It bleads into everything in life; forever with the mindset of a child. Just basic wants and desires....nothing more. The people are so hollow and shallow. It's all just a production; a scam for people to make money and/or feel special.

 

This girl Outlaw, was/is exactly like you. You've been dosed with the Blue Pill to some degree since before you knew any better and here you are, twisted, contorted, confused, and lost with yourself. The idea of beliving in a god was imprinted on you in a way that it's hard to imagine it not being there. It's a drug addiction really. You need the feeling. You've had it so long, you see it as a part of you. But like drug addiction, it will get you no where; it's a false hope because it isn't real. You're just flipping back and forth as you've said, because of what feels good. This is what happens with false hope. You get your hope but a what price? Maybe if people stopped hoping on a fairytale existence AFTER death....we could make real life here a better one for all.

 

Have you actually read the whole bible? How do you reconcile the rapes? The blatent sexism? All the horrible, evil shit commanded, condoned, or left unspoken about by god/Jesus and his most loyal followers? If it was for that time and place, what are you doing with it here and now??

 

Why be so addicted to theism? Is life really that bad just living and not expecting a reward at the end? Seems really childish to me. I think you should grow up Outlaw. Don't take that offensively; you are by far not alone either. The universe does not give a shit about you, or me, or anyone. I was never raised to think it does, and I'm just fine. I was never raised around the drug, so I don't need it. You still do apparently, but I'm trying to tell you from the outside looking in, that you're toying with a drug that ultimatly takes away a piece of you. I'm telling you this side of the fence - without that drug - that it's a hell of a lot better to depend on yourself in life, because when (if) you wake up in the morning, that's all you know you've got. If you don't wake up....well you won't have to worry will you. You know what death is like? Exactly what it was like before you were born. Was that so horrible?

 

Part of the drugs' side-effects is that it makes you think you need it to be spiritual. You do not need religion to be spiritual. In fact, I think religion is an insult to spirituality. I'm plenty spiritual and have never been high on religion. Spirituality comes from reconciling yourself with yourself. Explore and experience things. Don't be afraid to think. Believe in yourself and you won't be lost anymore. Christianity tells you you are garbage, and then it wants to be your cure. Scam, anyone? It's fun to get drunk sometimes. But the drug wears off and you know it's not a real solution. Religion probably the hardest to get sober of because you don't need external substances to alter your mind.... Or do you. All this stuff you've learned about religion: Where did it come from? Other people. And there work. Their writing. Their language. Where's the YOU in buying all THEIR stuff?

 

You never lost your faith "100%" as you said. It just had a near-death experience. It was still running in your mind as you fought with yourself though. Try seeing what people on here are saying. Look at all the problems religion causes.

 

Read the bible.

Read Strobel's "case"

Read church history.

Learn how to critique sources of information.

Are you really going to take the word of one man who is making a lot of money off his case? What kind of people usually buy such content do you think?

 

Start exploring. You're acting like a spoiled brat. Stop expecting and start investigating. You do not need to be high on religion if you master yourself. Stop being afraid of things. That's what you are if you need to be high on theism to deal with life: afraid.

[Outlaw393]

Outlaw,

 

I've had the experience of being with a Pentecostal girl on and off various times over the years. Most recently, it was a year long relationship. I've experienced Pentecostal churches, rallies, youth groups, the people, the mindset, etc. because of it. I have never been religious, so you can imagine how BATSHIT FUCKING INSANE it all appeared to me. But I did my homework and knew what to expect (to an extent, you have to experience it first hand ).

 

What's wrong with believing in something that gives you hope? For one, it SEVERELY fucks people in the head. Religion - the higher the dose - actively encourages compartmentalization of the mind. It puts up all sorts of walls. The wall mentality bleeds into every aspect of life. It let's you believe all sorts of crazy things that your rational self would normally cry out "BULLSHIT!" for. It's self-destroying.

 

Why get your hope from ancient middle-eastern bullshit? Are you aware of what life is like over there, with people even more high as fuck on religion? War. War. War. Violence. Hate. Never ending conflict. What good is that? If I lived in a "civilization" like that....all I'd hope for is death....so I could live with my sky daddy and not have to bear the shitacular life created by religion doing what it does best: divide and destroy. And that's all Christianity is really: a death cult. You are supposed to suffer here, so it all pays off when you die! What kind of evil, twisted hope is that?

 

I'll give you a million bucks....but not until you've already left town forever. No, I'm not showing you bank statements. No, I have no one to vouch for me. No contracts or anything. Just, trust me....

 

Back to the Pentecostal experience. See, because I was raised in a completely open-minded environment, I was allowed to look at religion on my own for what it really is my whole life. So rather than be taken aback at the opportunity to experience the drug first hand, I do what I love doing in life and explored the experience. I wanted to experience people getting high on this widespread drug myself. Hell, I even felt it in the atmosphere myself. The HYPE. The fuzzywuzzy warm feeling. The glee. The afterglow. I watched grown adults jump and sing like children. But it doesn't stop at church. It bleads into everything in life; forever with the mindset of a child. Just basic wants and desires....nothing more. The people are so hollow and shallow. It's all just a production; a scam for people to make money and/or feel special.

 

This girl Outlaw, was/is exactly like you. You've been dosed with the Blue Pill to some degree since before you knew any better and here you are, twisted, contorted, confused, and lost with yourself. The idea of beliving in a god was imprinted on you in a way that it's hard to imagine it not being there. It's a drug addiction really. You need the feeling. You've had it so long, you see it as a part of you. But like drug addiction, it will get you no where; it's a false hope because it isn't real. You're just flipping back and forth as you've said, because of what feels good. This is what happens with false hope. You get your hope but a what price? Maybe if people stopped hoping on a fairytale existence AFTER death....we could make real life here a better one for all.

 

Have you actually read the whole bible? How do you reconcile the rapes? The blatent sexism? All the horrible, evil shit commanded, condoned, or left unspoken about by god/Jesus and his most loyal followers? If it was for that time and place, what are you doing with it here and now??

 

Why be so addicted to theism? Is life really that bad just living and not expecting a reward at the end? Seems really childish to me. I think you should grow up Outlaw. Don't take that offensively; you are by far not alone either. The universe does not give a shit about you, or me, or anyone. I was never raised to think it does, and I'm just fine. I was never raised around the drug, so I don't need it. You still do apparently, but I'm trying to tell you from the outside looking in, that you're toying with a drug that ultimatly takes away a piece of you. I'm telling you this side of the fence - without that drug - that it's a hell of a lot better to depend on yourself in life, because when (if) you wake up in the morning, that's all you know you've got. If you don't wake up....well you won't have to worry will you. You know what death is like? Exactly what it was like before you were born. Was that so horrible?

 

Part of the drugs' side-effects is that it makes you think you need it to be spiritual. You do not need religion to be spiritual. In fact, I think religion is an insult to spirituality. I'm plenty spiritual and have never been high on religion. Spirituality comes from reconciling yourself with yourself. Explore and experience things. Don't be afraid to think. Believe in yourself and you won't be lost anymore. Christianity tells you you are garbage, and then it wants to be your cure. Scam, anyone? It's fun to get drunk sometimes. But the drug wears off and you know it's not a real solution. Religion probably the hardest to get sober of because you don't need external substances to alter your mind.... Or do you. All this stuff you've learned about religion: Where did it come from? Other people. And there work. Their writing. Their language. Where's the YOU in buying all THEIR stuff?

 

You never lost your faith "100%" as you said. It just had a near-death experience. It was still running in your mind as you fought with yourself though. Try seeing what people on here are saying. Look at all the problems religion causes.

 

Read the bible.

Read Strobel's "case"

Read church history.

Learn how to critique sources of information.

Are you really going to take the word of one man who is making a lot of money off his case? What kind of people usually buy such content do you think?

 

Start exploring. You're acting like a spoiled brat. Stop expecting and start investigating. You do not need to be high on religion if you master yourself. Stop being afraid of things. That's what you are if you need to be high on theism to deal with life: afraid.

 

You can't convince me to leave behind my faith because YOU believe it's fake! Meh. I'm sick of this. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

 

I'm done.

[Brother Jeff]

Outlaw,

 

I've had the experience of being with a Pentecostal girl on and off various times over the years. Most recently, it was a year long relationship. I've experienced Pentecostal churches, rallies, youth groups, the people, the mindset, etc. because of it. I have never been religious, so you can imagine how BATSHIT FUCKING INSANE it all appeared to me. But I did my homework and knew what to expect (to an extent, you have to experience it first hand ).

 

What's wrong with believing in something that gives you hope? For one, it SEVERELY fucks people in the head. Religion - the higher the dose - actively encourages compartmentalization of the mind. It puts up all sorts of walls. The wall mentality bleeds into every aspect of life. It let's you believe all sorts of crazy things that your rational self would normally cry out "BULLSHIT!" for. It's self-destroying.

 

Why get your hope from ancient middle-eastern bullshit? Are you aware of what life is like over there, with people even more high as fuck on religion? War. War. War. Violence. Hate. Never ending conflict. What good is that? If I lived in a "civilization" like that....all I'd hope for is death....so I could live with my sky daddy and not have to bear the shitacular life created by religion doing what it does best: divide and destroy. And that's all Christianity is really: a death cult. You are supposed to suffer here, so it all pays off when you die! What kind of evil, twisted hope is that?

 

I'll give you a million bucks....but not until you've already left town forever. No, I'm not showing you bank statements. No, I have no one to vouch for me. No contracts or anything. Just, trust me....

 

Back to the Pentecostal experience. See, because I was raised in a completely open-minded environment, I was allowed to look at religion on my own for what it really is my whole life. So rather than be taken aback at the opportunity to experience the drug first hand, I do what I love doing in life and explored the experience. I wanted to experience people getting high on this widespread drug myself. Hell, I even felt it in the atmosphere myself. The HYPE. The fuzzywuzzy warm feeling. The glee. The afterglow. I watched grown adults jump and sing like children. But it doesn't stop at church. It bleads into everything in life; forever with the mindset of a child. Just basic wants and desires....nothing more. The people are so hollow and shallow. It's all just a production; a scam for people to make money and/or feel special.

 

This girl Outlaw, was/is exactly like you. You've been dosed with the Blue Pill to some degree since before you knew any better and here you are, twisted, contorted, confused, and lost with yourself. The idea of beliving in a god was imprinted on you in a way that it's hard to imagine it not being there. It's a drug addiction really. You need the feeling. You've had it so long, you see it as a part of you. But like drug addiction, it will get you no where; it's a false hope because it isn't real. You're just flipping back and forth as you've said, because of what feels good. This is what happens with false hope. You get your hope but a what price? Maybe if people stopped hoping on a fairytale existence AFTER death....we could make real life here a better one for all.

 

Have you actually read the whole bible? How do you reconcile the rapes? The blatent sexism? All the horrible, evil shit commanded, condoned, or left unspoken about by god/Jesus and his most loyal followers? If it was for that time and place, what are you doing with it here and now??

 

Why be so addicted to theism? Is life really that bad just living and not expecting a reward at the end? Seems really childish to me. I think you should grow up Outlaw. Don't take that offensively; you are by far not alone either. The universe does not give a shit about you, or me, or anyone. I was never raised to think it does, and I'm just fine. I was never raised around the drug, so I don't need it. You still do apparently, but I'm trying to tell you from the outside looking in, that you're toying with a drug that ultimatly takes away a piece of you. I'm telling you this side of the fence - without that drug - that it's a hell of a lot better to depend on yourself in life, because when (if) you wake up in the morning, that's all you know you've got. If you don't wake up....well you won't have to worry will you. You know what death is like? Exactly what it was like before you were born. Was that so horrible?

 

Part of the drugs' side-effects is that it makes you think you need it to be spiritual. You do not need religion to be spiritual. In fact, I think religion is an insult to spirituality. I'm plenty spiritual and have never been high on religion. Spirituality comes from reconciling yourself with yourself. Explore and experience things. Don't be afraid to think. Believe in yourself and you won't be lost anymore. Christianity tells you you are garbage, and then it wants to be your cure. Scam, anyone? It's fun to get drunk sometimes. But the drug wears off and you know it's not a real solution. Religion probably the hardest to get sober of because you don't need external substances to alter your mind.... Or do you. All this stuff you've learned about religion: Where did it come from? Other people. And there work. Their writing. Their language. Where's the YOU in buying all THEIR stuff?

 

You never lost your faith "100%" as you said. It just had a near-death experience. It was still running in your mind as you fought with yourself though. Try seeing what people on here are saying. Look at all the problems religion causes.

 

Read the bible.

Read Strobel's "case"

Read church history.

Learn how to critique sources of information.

Are you really going to take the word of one man who is making a lot of money off his case? What kind of people usually buy such content do you think?

 

Start exploring. You're acting like a spoiled brat. Stop expecting and start investigating. You do not need to be high on religion if you master yourself. Stop being afraid of things. That's what you are if you need to be high on theism to deal with life: afraid.

 

You can't convince me to leave behind my faith because YOU believe it's fake! Meh. I'm sick of this. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

 

I'm done.

 

We don't just believe your faith is fake, WE KNOW IT IS FAKE AND WE CAN AND HAVE REFERRED YOU TO RESOURCES THAT PROVE THAT FACT BEYOND ANY DOUBT.

 

YOUR FAITH IS A STINKING BRONZE AGE CHARIOT LOAD OF UNFILTERED BULLSHIT.

 

And yes, arguing with you or with any fundie lunatic is very much like arguing with a fucking brick wall. Usually, not a single rational thought or flicker of REALITY can penetrate the religious fantasy world people like you live in.

 

Go back to your imaginary sky friend if you must and stop asking for advice you have no intention of listening to or even considering.

 

I'm done too, and I would imagine most of the rest of us here are too.

[Vigile]

What does "feeling called" mean? Sounds to me like it's an urge, or a temptation. So why don't xians say "I'm feeling called to masturbate" or "I'm feeling called to undress that hottie with my eyes"?

 

What makes one urge god's voice and another just biology or the devil? How do you know the difference?

[Deva]

I guess I'll offer myself as an example of someone who actually had to take this 'step backwards' in my spiritual development (I fully agree with you that is true), in order to lay some basic structures for me that we lacking in my life. One thing I've come to learn is that if we somehow missed some stage of growth in our lives that is necessary in order to move on effectively to the next, we may have to go back and learn what we missed, at least enough so in order to build on it and replace it with something more mature, more developed.

 

Are you saying you went back to the Pentecostal Church after you deconverted? I am rather surprised if that is the case AM. I can certainly understand someone wanting to do it in the process of deconversion, but afterward?

 

I was raised Baptist and didn't have any choice. It wasn't necessary for me in any way but I found that it was made to be necessary from years of indoctrination. It was difficult indeed but I found that this was an artificial and imposed need.

 

I suppose that I do need some sort of structure still and that is why I am into Buddhism- but its a lot more wide open for me, at least at this stage.

[Xerces]

 

Pagans would be better suited to answer this thread, since I don't think an atheist or agnostic could understand.

 

You're right, I don't understand why you need to believe at all. Maybe if mythical shit was real those 29,000 kids in Somalia wouldn't have starved to death. Divine intervention my ass. Prayers and chants don't do much but real action by real people does.

[Thackerie]

 

You can't convince me to leave behind my faith because YOU believe it's fake! Meh. I'm sick of this. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

 

I'm done.

 

It seems you were "done" before you even started this thread. Why ask a question if you are unwilling to listen to honest answers from people who have actually experienced the same things you claim to be going through? Why did you waste our time when it is clear you'd already made up your mind? Rather TROLLish of you, I think.

[Legion]

Man if you desprately need the sense of community that church provides then go for it. There's plenty of community to be found here IF you're a militant Lefty atheist. They are constantly sucking each other's dicks here. However you don't seem to be a Lefty atheist.

[Antlerman]

I guess I'll offer myself as an example of someone who actually had to take this 'step backwards' in my spiritual development (I fully agree with you that is true), in order to lay some basic structures for me that we lacking in my life. One thing I've come to learn is that if we somehow missed some stage of growth in our lives that is necessary in order to move on effectively to the next, we may have to go back and learn what we missed, at least enough so in order to build on it and replace it with something more mature, more developed.

 

Are you saying you went back to the Pentecostal Church after you deconverted? I am rather surprised if that is the case AM. I can certainly understand someone wanting to do it in the process of deconversion, but afterward?

No that's not what I meant. I can see the confusion though in my stating it the way I did. I was saying that I already had a spiritual awakening/awareness that surpassed them before I joined in with them. The problem was is that because my searching began following a couple peak experiences of existential awakening where the entire universe cleft open, that in my trying to find knowledge and understanding with my mind I began looking in religious settings to find "answers" to match that. I had gone to more mainstream churches but what they had to say wasn't giving me what I was looking for which was Answers, in absolute terms. The experience of God was absolute, therefore knowledge and understanding about God had to be equally as absolute, I somehow reasoned.

 

The UPC people were all about "We have the Truth!, and every other church and religion out there is deceived." Then they confidently pointed to the words on the pages of the Bible and showed how they all clearly fit together, to the point you would shake your head how all the others couldn't see it right there on the pages! What I hadn't learned is that they were a bunch of really bad hacks. I learned that as a student of theirs, in their classrooms, listening day after day to how they made leaps of logic, really bad scholarship, etc. The problem was I was actually learning about the Bible on my own to complement what I was learning from them. It was painful to realize they were so unqualified in their scholarship, and then how the entire organization itself was based off this mess.

 

But it wasn't solely the scholarship, not at all. It was my already awakened spiritual heart along with my awakening rational mind. My heart was all along saying "this doesn't fit", but my rational mind, in it's growing stages would try to make the heart subject itself to the Word of God™, because after all, "what's written is true and you can't trust your heart!!" Eventually, all the way up to today for me its been a case of making the mind and the heart two parts of a whole. The heart and the mind become one.

 

So the step backward was in my spiritual growth. In all honesty, I wasn't ready to go the next step without first learning socially and rationally those earlier, less mature stages. All that happens in all of this is stages of growth. If someone hadn't properly first gone through a developmental stage in order to go to the next where they 'transcend and include' the previous less developed stage, then can develop instead a pathology, a dysfunction in their lives. Regression therapy is about going back to visit those early stages and learn to incorporate what got bypassed earlier, so you can actually grow beyond it. In many ways I see organizations like this as something society creates in order for some sort of existential self-regression therapy to go back enough to learn we're ready to go forward. It served it's purpose for me it seems.

 

I've never started that topic I've promised, but it would be about this. Peak experience and stages of growth. The peak experience exposes what is there, but you can't get there without going through and mastering each preceding stage of growth, just as an 8 year old cannot bypass adolescence on his way to becoming a mature adult. Pentecostalism is a type of primitive religion, premodern, primal, visceral, body-self and tribal.

 

Chide as we may, there are elements of that which are important to go back and get in touch with, but goodness, to stay there is to become dysfunctional. It's the Regress Express back to dancing naked and howling at the moon. Fine to touch our primitive selves lost in history, but goodness there is so, so much more to expose! Way more than those howling at the moon simply were capable of accessing. "Give me that old-time religion" is a symptom of modern Western Romanticism, where we reject the present to find answers in some idealized past. But it's a fallacy as the past is the past for a reason. There was a reason we left the forest.

[Tealeaf]

Well I tried.

 

Guess it was just my experience watching this faith mess up people lives prompting me to go all out.

 

Outlaw, you've asked for help but you've already got your head in standard religion mode. You've got something you simply refuse to let go of because _________________.

 

By what you've said, I think you just really WANT to think that Jesus/Christianity/etc. is "pulling" you back because that would provide material for hope. If not that, then it's simply the community and familiarity you're after. If you just want to make stuff up and don't really care about truth (juggling two religions like this kind of shows that), then do whatever makes you happy. We're trying to warn you that living a lie never usually leads to happiness though.

 

If you need new community, try looking on meetup.com

[EbonBadger]

[de-lurk]

 

I'm pagan (culturally so at least; currently in the "meh" position re: gods) and I have to say I'm somewhat baffled by the OP. Why go back to the same church you had issues with when the source of those issues has not been fixed? I assume that the reason the Wiccan walk was a lonely one is a lack of covens and pagan meet-ups in the area, but even so, can the people at church really be called friends if they did not remain so when you left? I get the "being called by deity" thing, but I wonder whether the decision to go back to your old church is made out of habit rather than where Jesus wants you to go? Anyway, good luck at figuring all this out, and please for the love of eldritch creatures with squid-like appendages don't write an ex-pagan screed about how we're all secretly baby eating satan worshippers

 

[re-lurk]

[Ro-bear]

Outlaw,

 

I've had the experience of being with a Pentecostal girl on and off various times over the years. Most recently, it was a year long relationship. I've experienced Pentecostal churches, rallies, youth groups, the people, the mindset, etc. because of it. I have never been religious, so you can imagine how BATSHIT FUCKING INSANE it all appeared to me. But I did my homework and knew what to expect (to an extent, you have to experience it first hand ).

 

What's wrong with believing in something that gives you hope? For one, it SEVERELY fucks people in the head. Religion - the higher the dose - actively encourages compartmentalization of the mind. It puts up all sorts of walls. The wall mentality bleeds into every aspect of life. It let's you believe all sorts of crazy things that your rational self would normally cry out "BULLSHIT!" for. It's self-destroying.

 

Why get your hope from ancient middle-eastern bullshit? Are you aware of what life is like over there, with people even more high as fuck on religion? War. War. War. Violence. Hate. Never ending conflict. What good is that? If I lived in a "civilization" like that....all I'd hope for is death....so I could live with my sky daddy and not have to bear the shitacular life created by religion doing what it does best: divide and destroy. And that's all Christianity is really: a death cult. You are supposed to suffer here, so it all pays off when you die! What kind of evil, twisted hope is that?

 

I'll give you a million bucks....but not until you've already left town forever. No, I'm not showing you bank statements. No, I have no one to vouch for me. No contracts or anything. Just, trust me....

 

Back to the Pentecostal experience. See, because I was raised in a completely open-minded environment, I was allowed to look at religion on my own for what it really is my whole life. So rather than be taken aback at the opportunity to experience the drug first hand, I do what I love doing in life and explored the experience. I wanted to experience people getting high on this widespread drug myself. Hell, I even felt it in the atmosphere myself. The HYPE. The fuzzywuzzy warm feeling. The glee. The afterglow. I watched grown adults jump and sing like children. But it doesn't stop at church. It bleads into everything in life; forever with the mindset of a child. Just basic wants and desires....nothing more. The people are so hollow and shallow. It's all just a production; a scam for people to make money and/or feel special.

 

This girl Outlaw, was/is exactly like you. You've been dosed with the Blue Pill to some degree since before you knew any better and here you are, twisted, contorted, confused, and lost with yourself. The idea of beliving in a god was imprinted on you in a way that it's hard to imagine it not being there. It's a drug addiction really. You need the feeling. You've had it so long, you see it as a part of you. But like drug addiction, it will get you no where; it's a false hope because it isn't real. You're just flipping back and forth as you've said, because of what feels good. This is what happens with false hope. You get your hope but a what price? Maybe if people stopped hoping on a fairytale existence AFTER death....we could make real life here a better one for all.

 

Have you actually read the whole bible? How do you reconcile the rapes? The blatent sexism? All the horrible, evil shit commanded, condoned, or left unspoken about by god/Jesus and his most loyal followers? If it was for that time and place, what are you doing with it here and now??

 

Why be so addicted to theism? Is life really that bad just living and not expecting a reward at the end? Seems really childish to me. I think you should grow up Outlaw. Don't take that offensively; you are by far not alone either. The universe does not give a shit about you, or me, or anyone. I was never raised to think it does, and I'm just fine. I was never raised around the drug, so I don't need it. You still do apparently, but I'm trying to tell you from the outside looking in, that you're toying with a drug that ultimatly takes away a piece of you. I'm telling you this side of the fence - without that drug - that it's a hell of a lot better to depend on yourself in life, because when (if) you wake up in the morning, that's all you know you've got. If you don't wake up....well you won't have to worry will you. You know what death is like? Exactly what it was like before you were born. Was that so horrible?

 

Part of the drugs' side-effects is that it makes you think you need it to be spiritual. You do not need religion to be spiritual. In fact, I think religion is an insult to spirituality. I'm plenty spiritual and have never been high on religion. Spirituality comes from reconciling yourself with yourself. Explore and experience things. Don't be afraid to think. Believe in yourself and you won't be lost anymore. Christianity tells you you are garbage, and then it wants to be your cure. Scam, anyone? It's fun to get drunk sometimes. But the drug wears off and you know it's not a real solution. Religion probably the hardest to get sober of because you don't need external substances to alter your mind.... Or do you. All this stuff you've learned about religion: Where did it come from? Other people. And there work. Their writing. Their language. Where's the YOU in buying all THEIR stuff?

 

You never lost your faith "100%" as you said. It just had a near-death experience. It was still running in your mind as you fought with yourself though. Try seeing what people on here are saying. Look at all the problems religion causes.

 

Read the bible.

Read Strobel's "case"

Read church history.

Learn how to critique sources of information.

Are you really going to take the word of one man who is making a lot of money off his case? What kind of people usually buy such content do you think?

 

Start exploring. You're acting like a spoiled brat. Stop expecting and start investigating. You do not need to be high on religion if you master yourself. Stop being afraid of things. That's what you are if you need to be high on theism to deal with life: afraid.

 

You can't convince me to leave behind my faith because YOU believe it's fake! Meh. I'm sick of this. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

 

I'm done.

 

What the hell did you expect? Post in the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum if you want people to support feel-good mythology; there, they are prohibited from steering you toward reality, as I learned to my chagrin. There you will find lots of nice pagans and wiccans and who-knows-what-else.

[Deva]

No that's not what I meant. I can see the confusion though in my stating it the way I did. I was saying that I already had a spiritual awakening/awareness that surpassed them before I joined in with them. The problem was is that because my searching began following a couple peak experiences of existential awakening where the entire universe cleft open, that in my trying to find knowledge and understanding with my mind I began looking in religious settings to find "answers" to match that. I had gone to more mainstream churches but what they had to say wasn't giving me what I was looking for which was Answers, in absolute terms. The experience of God was absolute, therefore knowledge and understanding about God had to be equally as absolute, I somehow reasoned.

 

OK, whew, got worried there for a minute. I used to have that "absolute" thing too. Gradually I realized that approach was a mistake and part of the programming.....

 

Pentecostalism is a type of primitive religion, premodern, primal, visceral, body-self and tribal.

 

Yes it is, very much so, from what I have seen of it. Some of that isn't wrong per se as an emotional release, but you do have to throw your education out the window to really get with it.

 

Chide as we may, there are elements of that which are important to go back and get in touch with, but goodness, to stay there is to become dysfunctional. It's the Regress Express back to dancing naked and howling at the moon. Fine to touch our primitive selves lost in history, but goodness there is so, so much more to expose! Way more than those howling at the moon simply were capable of accessing. "Give me that old-time religion" is a symptom of modern Western Romanticism, where we reject the present to find answers in some idealized past. But it's a fallacy as the past is the past for a reason. There was a reason we left the forest.

 

I don't think any system is going to completely suit me. What I have seen and experienced isn't a system. Do you know what I mean? And how can a system help? It gives explanations, but the explanation isn't the reality. Too many words don't much help, and too much emotionalism doesn't do it either.

[Deva]

What the hell did you expect? Post in the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum if you want people to support feel-good mythology; there, they are prohibited from steering you toward reality, as I learned to my chagrin. There you will find lots of nice pagans and wiccans and who-knows-what-else.

 

I suppose that anyone that doesn't follow your particular brand of atheist materialism is not a true Ex-Christian.

 

Signed,

 

Who-knows-what-else Deva.

[Deva]

[de-lurk]

 

I'm pagan (culturally so at least; currently in the "meh" position re: gods) and I have to say I'm somewhat baffled by the OP. Why go back to the same church you had issues with when the source of those issues has not been fixed? I assume that the reason the Wiccan walk was a lonely one is a lack of covens and pagan meet-ups in the area, but even so, can the people at church really be called friends if they did not remain so when you left? I get the "being called by deity" thing, but I wonder whether the decision to go back to your old church is made out of habit rather than where Jesus wants you to go? Anyway, good luck at figuring all this out, and please for the love of eldritch creatures with squid-like appendages don't write an ex-pagan screed about how we're all secretly baby eating satan worshippers

 

[re-lurk]

 

EbonBadger,

 

Welcome to the forums. I hope you decide to de-lurk again. I love the British sense of humor. I personally like eldritch creatures with squid-like appendages!

[Ro-bear]

What the hell did you expect? Post in the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum if you want people to support feel-good mythology; there, they are prohibited from steering you toward reality, as I learned to my chagrin. There you will find lots of nice pagans and wiccans and who-knows-what-else.

 

I suppose that anyone that doesn't follow your particular brand of atheist materialism is not a true Ex-Christian.

 

Signed,

 

Who-knows-what-else Deva.

 

On the contrary, such a person is as much an Ex-Christian as I. I just don't believe as they do, and I am willing to express that. I hope you don't mind too much. I feel any practitioner of religion is entitled to the same respect I give a Christian. I respect the person, but not the belief.

[Outlaw393]

Well much to the chagrin of many people I am still here. But I am fed up with people who think the general public should tolerate them when they clearly won't tolerate anyone but themselves or people like them.

 

Anything militant - and yes, that includes atheists - are as fundamentalist as the "fundies" they claim to despise.

 

"Tolerate or you won't be tolerated." Sounds fitting, really. I read up on many atheist sources and what not and most of them said to tolerate religions, even if you didn't agree with it. I tolerate other religions, for example. I'm certainly no fundamentalist. Calling me such just shows you know nothing about me. It's quite hypocritical to demand tolerance when you show none for your fellow man. Or maybe it's just the atheists on the internet, I certainly have yet to meet one in real life like this. In a matter of fact most of my friends are atheist and agnostic. Regarding being "trollish", spouting hate filled rants in big letters is trollish. Asking the community for an honest answer isn't. And besides, I enjoy discussions like this, assuming they don't turn into flame wars filled with prejudice, intolerance, or plain disrespect.

--------------------------------------------------------------->

Back to the topic at hand - I went back last night. Surprisingly I am not looking at staying. If I choose to remain christian I will be leaving the pentecostal church. "Liberal christianity" isn't an option. There is no such thing around here where I live.

 

Honestly instead of converting to yet another denomination it would be easier to just stay Wiccan. But then I'd be at square one once again because there are no pagan groups around here. I'd be alone. And being alone sucks and really isn't a real option.

 

But who am I kidding. Real honesty? I'm not sure what to call myself right now.

[Noggy]

Honestly instead of converting to yet another denomination it would be easier to just stay Wiccan

 

I think that is the viewpoint that people are shouting down. It seems odd that you choose your religion based on what is "easier" or "more comfortable", as opposed to whether something is factually true.

 

However, and I don't know this for certain, you may believe that the Divine is something that can be found a variety of ways (whether that be christainity, wicca, hinduism, etc), and its all just different aspects or ways to communicate with the Divine nature. In which case, I say props to you! Its possible there exists a driving force out there, but for any one religion to be able to be certain that they hold the truth is something that is seriously flawed.

 

Its an interesting thing trying to live a "spiritual" life, because spirituality and religion are so entwined, but yet so different.

 

I think you should be less concerned with being affiliated with a particular religion. You seem worried about what you call yourself. Why does it matter? The christians certainly aren't 100% right about the nature of the divine. Neither are the wiccans, nor the buddhists, nor the daoists. Putting a label on your spiritual walk seems to be more constricting than anything.