Feeling Called Back To The Church

[Galien]

 

It all reminds me of the character in the WC Fields movie "Never Give a Sucker an Even Break", a banker who would say, "allow me to offer you a hearty handclasp" -- and laid his palm on the other person's without even grasping it. For folks like myself who have extended themselves over the years toward various forms of community and come away with very little to show for it other than such limp fish sorts of perfunctory responses, it's going to be difficult to fire them up about community.

 

 

It scares me how often you speak exactly what is in my heart. I do believe Bob that you and I must have had very similar experiences to get us to a place where we have such a sad knowledge of the utter self centredness of many. We give ourselves away because that is what we thought we were meant to do, only to find out that as givers the takers will never stop sucking it out of us, and not because they care but because we are silly enough to keep giving. When we are done giving we will be discarded like yesterday's rubbish. That is what groups do to people, take away their personal responsibility for the way the individuals treat each other. It is a hard, hard to thing to realise that so many relationships are one sided, with you doing all the work. It causes a certain type of soul weariness that cannot be explained to others unless they have gone through it themselves.

[Tealeaf]

And these are exactly the kinds of places I've had my entire life. All for me. All BY me. None of it with a shred of reference to religion either. What I like in my experience never having been religious is the freedom to have this kind of peace tailored to myself in a genuine way. Reading all the stories on this site just make me sad in seeing how far people have had to come just to find themselves, where as I have been happily living as myself from the get-go without any of these identity crisis deals going on.

 

Religous symbolism is an insult to me. It's just too shallow and based on too much bullshit. Symbolism, ritual, etc. and the like can be very personally theraputic. But this is only so much as they are of yourself. This is why I can't see the OP wanting to go back to the dictated content of religion as being healthy as it is nothing more than pre-subscribed content; outdated and primitive at that.

 

What you guys are saying is basically what I've always come to think about "spirituality." It's reconciling yourself with yourself. Some people don't have to do that. Others get to doing it. Others sadly do not (and religion is the big blocker here).

 

Looking for tailor-made methods in a personal identity dilema is completely contradictory, no?

 

Not everyone believes the same way when it comes to spirituality and religion. Thinking something wrong with people who don't agree with you is the same way fundamentalist Christians think. When someone is truly reconciled with themselves and life they don't act like that.

 

 

Not true at all.

 

I could reconcile (and have) the fact that over half the worlds population still believes in primitive mythology as though it were somehow more than....all the other primitive mythologies that have been believed in, but no longer are. I'm still not comfortable with it. They are still strapping packs of intellectual C4 to their brains and chests and living in the same world with me. When what I know they're packing goes off, it still hurts me.

 

Fact is that vast majority of religiohlics don't get a fair choice at all. They're indoctrinated into it long before they can make rational choices and thus a piece of themselves is already robbed and painted over by something they can not yet choose. They might not know it; that's part of the saddness looking from the outside in. An ancient load of bullshit fairytales (evil ones at that) are not going to reconcile with A LOT of people by nature of said bullshit not being compatible with reality today....without heavily acts of mental gymnastics and compartmentalization. These things are tedious and futile, unnecessary and never ending. And most people who suffer from it are oblivious to the rest of the whole wide world out there.... They are also unfairly predisposed to toxic beliefs and mental constructs to hold those beliefs.

[chosendarkness]

And these are exactly the kinds of places I've had my entire life. All for me. All BY me. None of it with a shred of reference to religion either. What I like in my experience never having been religious is the freedom to have this kind of peace tailored to myself in a genuine way. Reading all the stories on this site just make me sad in seeing how far people have had to come just to find themselves, where as I have been happily living as myself from the get-go without any of these identity crisis deals going on.

 

Religous symbolism is an insult to me. It's just too shallow and based on too much bullshit. Symbolism, ritual, etc. and the like can be very personally theraputic. But this is only so much as they are of yourself. This is why I can't see the OP wanting to go back to the dictated content of religion as being healthy as it is nothing more than pre-subscribed content; outdated and primitive at that.

 

What you guys are saying is basically what I've always come to think about "spirituality." It's reconciling yourself with yourself. Some people don't have to do that. Others get to doing it. Others sadly do not (and religion is the big blocker here).

 

Looking for tailor-made methods in a personal identity dilema is completely contradictory, no?

 

Not everyone believes the same way when it comes to spirituality and religion. Thinking something wrong with people who don't agree with you is the same way fundamentalist Christians think. When someone is truly reconciled with themselves and life they don't act like that.

 

 

Not true at all.

 

I could reconcile (and have) the fact that over half the worlds population still believes in primitive mythology as though it were somehow more than....all the other primitive mythologies that have been believed in, but no longer are. I'm still not comfortable with it. They are still strapping packs of intellectual C4 to their brains and chests and living in the same world with me. When what I know they're packing goes off, it still hurts me.

 

Fact is that vast majority of religiohlics don't get a fair choice at all. They're indoctrinated into it long before they can make rational choices and thus a piece of themselves is already robbed and painted over by something they can not yet choose. They might not know it; that's part of the saddness looking from the outside in. An ancient load of bullshit fairytales (evil ones at that) are not going to reconcile with A LOT of people by nature of said bullshit not being compatible with reality today....without heavily acts of mental gymnastics and compartmentalization. These things are tedious and futile, unnecessary and never ending. And most people who suffer from it are oblivious to the rest of the whole wide world out there.... They are also unfairly predisposed to toxic beliefs and mental constructs to hold those beliefs.

 

Not all religious people are fundamentalists like that. Thinking all religion is toxic and everyone should believe like you is probably the pain and anger talking. I would know, I do the same thing, and it makes me sad.

[Phanta]

Honestly instead of converting to yet another denomination it would be easier to just stay Wiccan. But then I'd be at square one once again because there are no pagan groups around here. I'd be alone. And being alone sucks and really isn't a real option.

 

But who am I kidding. Real honesty? I'm not sure what to call myself right now.

What a breath of fresh air your honesty is!

 

Maybe you can cast some friend spells on some people?

 

Just jushing with ya. I gave you a +1 for such power and vulnerability as you have demonstrated here.

 

I'm with Legion. Good for you for being honest about where you are right now and not being ashamed of it. The great paradox of human change is that accepting we are stuck and surrendering to it is often the catalyst for change and, ultimately, getting unstuck.

 

Hey, have you considered moving out of fundyland? Lots of pagan groups up here in the Northeast...

 

Phanta

 

Good luck in your journey.

[Antlerman]

And these are exactly the kinds of places I've had my entire life. All for me. All BY me. None of it with a shred of reference to religion either. What I like in my experience never having been religious is the freedom to have this kind of peace tailored to myself in a genuine way. Reading all the stories on this site just make me sad in seeing how far people have had to come just to find themselves, where as I have been happily living as myself from the get-go without any of these identity crisis deals going on.

 

Religous symbolism is an insult to me. It's just too shallow and based on too much bullshit. Symbolism, ritual, etc. and the like can be very personally theraputic. But this is only so much as they are of yourself. This is why I can't see the OP wanting to go back to the dictated content of religion as being healthy as it is nothing more than pre-subscribed content; outdated and primitive at that.

 

What you guys are saying is basically what I've always come to think about "spirituality." It's reconciling yourself with yourself. Some people don't have to do that. Others get to doing it. Others sadly do not (and religion is the big blocker here).

 

Looking for tailor-made methods in a personal identity dilema is completely contradictory, no?

 

Not everyone believes the same way when it comes to spirituality and religion. Thinking something wrong with people who don't agree with you is the same way fundamentalist Christians think. When someone is truly reconciled with themselves and life they don't act like that.

 

 

Not true at all.

 

I could reconcile (and have) the fact that over half the worlds population still believes in primitive mythology as though it were somehow more than....all the other primitive mythologies that have been believed in, but no longer are. I'm still not comfortable with it.

I'm not sure how you can say you have reconciled this. How you are stating this is that you have concluded your opinions of it. That's not a reconciliation. That's a judgment.

 

I would say that I have reconciled myself with that past, and with how that may be currently for others. What that means is that I now can recognize its legitimacy for others for where they are at and allow them that in support of them. However, I can and do also recognize its illegitimacy for some and disapprove of it when it creates dysfunction. I am in fact comfortable with how I believe and with how I see other beliefs for others. In no way does that mean I just accept any and all things no matter what as legitimate, but it also means I don't judge any and all things other than how I now believe as illegitimate.

 

For instance, I went to church with my mother recently (first time in a church in many years actually), because I wanted to hear their new pipe organ (I'm a music lover). I also went because I wanted to observe others in that environment, in how they interact with it in its various forms and rituals (call it my anthropological study). I also wanted to talk with various members after the fact to see how they interfaced with it, what they took from it in positive ways (as opposed to prejudging it as illegitimate because it's "fairy tales" or whatnot). People are people, like you, like me. We all use things to believe in to access and build on things in ourselves, whether it's the mythologies in religious institutions, or beliefs in a secular world where reason and science promise a brighter future. It's all the same thing when you come down to its function.

 

The fact I could be quite at ease with those participating in their myth structures as humans, even though to me I've can't relate myself into that structure system any more, says something rather significant about where I am at now. This, is legitimately having 'reconciled' myself with it. I don't accept it for myself, I don't even accept it as ultimately where we should remain (as much as where I am at today as well, for that matter). Instead I recognize the roles of these systems, instead of making such monlogocial claims of evidence and truth and make right/wrong, good/bad binary judgments. Reconciling yourself means you have to reconcile the legitimacy of what it was for you yourself once upon a time, even it it isn't now, and then extend that same understanding and wisdom to others. If you are at peace with that, if you have reconciled it within yourself, then brashly passing judgment tends to fall aside into wisdom and understanding.

 

 

An ancient load of bullshit fairytales (evil ones at that) are not going to reconcile with A LOT of people by nature of said bullshit not being compatible with reality today....without heavily acts of mental gymnastics and compartmentalization. These things are tedious and futile, unnecessary and never ending. And most people who suffer from it are oblivious to the rest of the whole wide world out there.... They are also unfairly predisposed to toxic beliefs and mental constructs to hold those beliefs.

It's actually quite surprising how these 'fairy tales' of the past and the roles they playing in our human evolution, are just as much a part of our evolution today even though we dress them up in 'secular' terms. It really doesn't matter if the myths have supernatural garb, or just simply idealistic or romantic ones. They are still the same in how individuals and cultures use them.

 

If you think about ancient Greek culture for instance, the very culture which shaped our very reality of today here in the West, it's core myths about heroic man served as the inspiration of individuals and societies to pattern themselves after them. The entire West itself is born of the myth of Achilles, which inspired the classic Greeks and Alexander the Great himself to be that god. It was that myth that inspired the expansion of their culture and worldviews into the ancient world that has shaped everything that followed. It was the ideal embodied in the myth. Same damned thing for today.

 

As an exercise, can you identify some of the gods in our non-supernatural myths of today? It's the same role, the same function. Now extend this to religious myths. What is it embodied in those myths that served to shape and mold the very value systems you yourself, even as a deconvert embrace? Our entire language that serves as the very structure through which we perceive the world and make judgments of right and wrong, truth and error, good and bad, is deeply informed by these "fairy tales", to the point you don't recognize them at all, yet very much participate in life through them.

 

These are all creations of humans, and they are all simply, and quite powerfully so, language about them. When you understand them as such, it gives a new perspective on all of them, on everything, from a more dispassionate point of view as opposed to simply arguing one idea, or myth, against another as a participant in our own current myth structure against those in theirs. To me the only way to truly reconcile these things is to rise above them and look at them together in dialog with each other. That's key. Monologs are not dialogs, and do not reconcile anything.

[Phanta]

The purpose for these things is frankly rather simple. It is to create a mental space for private reflection. It is in that space of private reflection that insight can occur. The ritual is designed to help the mind draw a circle in which it can set aside the thoughts of the world and enter into itself in quite. It is a form of guided meditation. Then within that space, the mind is allowed to look within. It really doesn't matter what the religion is, nor what the ritual, so long as the individual can enter that space.

 

 

Oh okay. Der. I am an obsessive introspector, born to search the inner rooms of my soul with huge searchlights Totally neurotic. Part of the therapy I have gone through is helping me to understand that not everyone else is like that, but I still forget. I spent about 45 years thinking everyone was as introspective as I am and constantly trying to correct their behaviour in the same way I constantly try to correct my own. My challenge is to stop the navel gazing that makes me too concerned with my inner life, and whether I am doing it "right". I have always wished we had the capacity to touch another's hand, and just for an instant see the world the way they see it, because I don't know what it is like to be anything other than me.

 

I can relate to this. The introspection. The offering insights to struggling people from my own autobiography. Most of the time, it doesn't seem to really help anyone. The method of helping people work through their own understanding is usually more successful, but it's been hard to remember how to do it. Practice...

 

Phanta

[Tealeaf]

chosendarkness,

 

I know they aren't all fundementalists. I never said anything about what people should believe. My comment pertains more so to over half the worlds' population that still believes in Abrahamic mythology. It's bad, evil, gruesome mythology to try and bring to real life. I wonder what non-fundementalists are doing cherry picking it, and enabling the fundementalists with some sort of legitimacy. What would be a proper dose of Abrahamic mythology to avoid fundemental intoxication?

 

Antlerman, I should mention again that I have never been religious. I have visited churches for a variety of reasons though and viewed it all from the outside. I know what place it holds in a lot of peoples' lives and I know that's legitimate for them. But how did they get there? What I continue to see in life, continue to hear from people, and continue to read on this site points to higher levels of 'functioning' (level of reliance on it) religiousity leading to more varieties of detrimental affect. Whether it's closed-mindedness, illegit sex, irresponsible sex, secrecy, deciet, false authority, finicial swindling, fear of varieties of things including fear beyond the grave, fake relationships, false promises etc. etc. I can see what you mean about people believing in symbols and what not. The church instituitin isn't necessary for this though. Church instituition (organized religion) leads to that list and much more (and not just religion, but why is religion necessary). And for what? Reconciling for me is seeing how evil and fake it all is, and not going crazy. I say that with a light heart.

 

Just try looking at it from where I have been. Never been religious and had the opportunity to learn....about everything my whole life, including mythology and religion. I'm 21 by the way, so yes I am a man largely of the internet age. What I see from where I am is an unnecessary force presupposed upon children that potentially does A LOT of harm. It seems myth structure is mostly required by those who have already been exposed to it. It's "necessary" and "legitimate" to them, though they didn't choose it so, and it isn't so in their way, for most people. The "spiritual" drive may be there as a human being, but the mythological religious content in no way has to be.

 

Yes, learn about it. Learn about everything. But presupposing it on children as an 'active' structure doesn't seem to be fair. How does that work for spirtual symbolism when a kid is taught that Zeus and all others are 'fake', but Yahweh and Jesus are somehow more?? This kind of compartmentalized thought process bleeds into everything by virtue of it simply being there as a necessary part of active religious belief.

 

Can we really say that our "non-supernatural myths" today serve the same as ones of the past? What are you refering to exactly (I have many ideas, as I'm sure you do)?

 

As for the role mythology may have played Antlerman, very well. I can see myself mostly agreeing with that but I don't want to discuss it here.

That was then. This is now. Do you really think ancient mythology will play the same roles it supposedly has, in the future? Remember: INTERNET. This is HUGE. Because of it (and globalization) we are just going to continue eroding at the ahem...tribalism that humanity has long been accustomed to. Me sitting here and being able to look up info on a host of mythologies - without having them running in my brain - is huge. When has that ever happened in human history?

 

We won't have dialog between active religions running in the mind. Part of that ancient religious mindset is tribalism. Tribalism was necessary to protect the heard. Now, we are 'self aware.' We know how big the planet is. We know what kinds of things people believe. We know a whole lot about our world now.... We know there's on the order of ~6.8 billion other people out there. And yes, we know what our mythology has done and shaped in the past. Thing is now, we can look at it all.

 

Roconciling for me is having an idea of where we've been, and looking at where we could go. I should probably not use that word here though since I have not been through the identity struggles most here have. I know religion won't go away in my lifetime.

[DesertBob]

What I see from where I am is an unnecessary force presupposed upon children that potentially does A LOT of harm. It seems myth structure is mostly required by those who have already been exposed to it. It's "necessary" and "legitimate" to them, though they didn't choose it so, and it isn't so in their way, for most people. The "spiritual" drive may be there as a human being, but the mythological religious content in no way has to be.

 

Yes, learn about it. Learn about everything. But presupposing it on children as an 'active' structure doesn't seem to be fair. How does that work for spirtual symbolism when a kid is taught that Zeus and all others are 'fake', but Yahweh and Jesus are somehow more?? This kind of compartmentalized thought process bleeds into everything by virtue of it simply being there as a necessary part of active religious belief.

I 110% agree with you on this, Tealeaf. Although I agree with AM and Ken Wilber, and M. Scott Peck and others who see religiosity as a necessary developmental step, that step need not be something one is stuck in for decades and finds painful to move on from. It should, actually, be a pretty brief developmental phase. I consider myself a case of arrested development due to religious thought structures being imposed, stamped, and branded on me as normative for my whole life at a very young age. My children largely escaped it, mostly because even though I was still in theory a fundie while I was raising them, I was internally conflicted about it and drifting away already so I didn't have the heart to flog them with it. Both of them are agnostics. My grandchildren will have the luxury you did, of growing up completely without a religious imposition, but it happens that they are being educated and socialized in North Carolina, in the midst of the Bible Belt, so they will still have to deal with more of this crap than I would wish.

[TotalWreck]

Well I know I believe in god. And when I first joined this church I still counted myself Wiccan. This was before my belief that you can't be christian and anything else you want.

 

My faith in my gods has waxed and waned even while I was still a practicing christian. My biggest issue was with some of the church's beliefs. For example: They believe the bible is 100% literal and inerrant. I don't. They believe that women should grow out their hair, and are blessed if they do. I don't. They believe in creationism. I don't. They are tongues talking Christians. I'm not sure what to believe of the "holy spirit" phenomenon.

 

As a christian I never felt "called" to the church. I felt called to a relationship with a pure entity that was nothing like human beings. 36 years in church taught me that most people are not in it for the same reasons I was. If there is a god up there, he is remarkably silent, and I need any relationship I am part of to be a reciprocal thing. I can no longer believe that I am having a "relationship" when the other half of it doesn't appear to exist. Added to that, the longer I am out of christianity the stupider it seems. I no longer believe I deserve to be punished for having an "evil" nature I never wanted in the first place.

 

This is one of the biggest reasons I've lost my faith - I felt like I was talking to a brick wall. As you said, relationships need to be a reciprocal thing, and if our relationship with God is supposed to be our most important relationship, then why the hell was he silent 90% of the time??? At least give me a damn sign or something on a regular basis!

[PatrickG]

Look up "Centers for Spiritual Living" on the internet.

 

There may be a church near you.

 

They are not Christian but do try to be a Spiritual community.

 

http://www.unitedcen...tualliving.org/

 

Paganism is fine there.

 

 

I looked it up for you.

Only one in Wisconsin................. in Madison.

[rocklobster]

The book I'm reading right now is "The Case for Christ" which is really good. It chronicles a man's own research into Christianity. He is a former atheist. And I guess he ended up finding enough proof in the end to justify his return.

 

 

the case for christ is decieving