SillyString Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Just a short video about NDEs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt0w7KF9eT0&feature=feedlik I've NEVER heard of anyone being called an "atheist minister", though. Strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Honestly most of these don't bother me, there was one, specifically Pam Reynolds, who was the most "convincing" one which kinda gave me a jolt, however after researching further it was far less miraculous than they reported.... Now i'm on to people randomly guessing the names of people in front of them in need of god! FML....ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 5, 2011 Just a short video about NDEs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt0w7KF9eT0&feature=feedlik I've NEVER heard of anyone being called an "atheist minister", though. Strange. That was really good Beth! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Just a short video about NDEs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt0w7KF9eT0&feature=feedlik I've NEVER heard of anyone being called an "atheist minister", though. Strange. Excellent video! Nobody knows what NDEs really are or what they mean. But I find them very interesting since I'm not convinced that consciousness and the mind are products (or are entirely products) of the brain. We can't even define what consciousness actually is though we experience it every day, so how can we possibly define with any certainty where it comes from or what the nature of it is? Pam Reynold's NDE is convincing and it's one that skeptics of the NDE phenomenon hate since they can't even come close to explaining it away. Purely natural processes can't explain the transformational effects of NDEs either. And Ketamine? Give me a break. The MAJOR and plainly obvious problem with that theory is the fact that not a single person reporting an NDE has ever done so while under the influence of that drug. So what if a drug can mimic the effects of an NDE? It's entirely irrelevant. This is a very interesting article on consciousness. Not an easy read, but well worth the effort. http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j46/hameroff.asp I actually liked the "atheist minister". What she had to say makes sense, though I don't agree with her that where we go after death is "nothingness". Possibly, but that's not something that she or anyone else can know. Nobody can or does know whether a god or gods actually exists or not and nobody can or does know if there is an afterlife or not or what the nature of it might be if it does exist. That's why I'm pretty much a confirmed agnostic rather than an atheist. Just my 2 cents on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Brother Jeff, its interesting that you posted that link to the article with Stuart Hameroff. Just this week I was watching him on Netflix! I have rented a five DVD documentary series on "Consciousness." In it, different neuroscientists are interviewed and are giving their take on the subject. I thought Hameroff was particularly interesting but I admit I have a bias toward the theory that consciousness is not a product of the brain. http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Hameroff/dp/B0009RM9KI The NDE experience is fascinating. One of the scientists was saying that this is a very widespread phenomenon. Much more common than most people realize. I can't remember the name of this particular scientist, but she went to India to study transcendental type experiences. Anyway, some of the discussions on the series were a bit over my head, but it is interesting that there is some work being done and some serious investigation into this topic taking place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 ... Pam Reynold's NDE is convincing and it's one that skeptics of the NDE phenomenon hate since they can't even come close to explaining it away. ... A lengthy essay on one of the sites you recommend (infidels.org) does a decent job of "explaining away" Pam Reynold's experience and other NDEs. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html#pam Just wondering if you've read this and what you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 6, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted August 6, 2011 I don't see how an NDE depicts one's experience after death because near death is not death. Do believers think a body can continue to live without a soul while that soul is away visiting Heaven or some such place? There is no temporary death, but there is temporary suspension of bodily functions. Your heart may stop beating; even brainwaves may cease to be recorded, but that is not death. If the tissues remain alive they can and often do eventually start functioning normally. I just don't make the correlation between so called Near Death Experience and actual death. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 There is a logical disconnect here. Most NDE's happen in hospitals OR they happen when SCIENCE is there to resuscitate them. Praise SCIENCE. A higher success rate of raising people from the dead than gods have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul34 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Praise SCIENCE. A higher success rate of raising people from the dead than gods have. GOD gave us science to test our faith!!111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 There is a logical disconnect here. Most NDE's happen in hospitals OR they happen when SCIENCE is there to resuscitate them. Praise SCIENCE. A higher success rate of raising people from the dead than gods have. How do you know? Cite your source. I am not against science. I simply think science doesn't have the answer for everything yet. One of those things is consciousness. It is beyond explanation of present day science how someone can be clinically dead and yet aware of what is going on in the hospital and even beyond the operating room. Sorry, I don't buy the present explanations. We are not talking about raising the dead here - we are discussing what I believe is a phenomenon of nature which should be studied and not simply dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 ... Pam Reynold's NDE is convincing and it's one that skeptics of the NDE phenomenon hate since they can't even come close to explaining it away. ... A lengthy essay on one of the sites you recommend (infidels.org) does a decent job of "explaining away" Pam Reynold's experience and other NDEs. http://www.infidels..../HNDEs.html#pam Just wondering if you've read this and what you think about it. this is what convinced me is what BS you don't say "i think it was dr so and so" said something, if you were really seeing it you would know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 There is a logical disconnect here. Most NDE's happen in hospitals OR they happen when SCIENCE is there to resuscitate them. Praise SCIENCE. A higher success rate of raising people from the dead than gods have. How do you know? Cite your source. I am not against science. I simply think science doesn't have the answer for everything yet. One of those things is consciousness. Give us an example where SCIENCE was not involved with an NDE? It is beyond explanation of present day science how someone can be clinically dead and yet aware of what is going on in the hospital and even beyond the operating room. Sorry, I don't buy the present explanations. We are not talking about raising the dead here - we are discussing what I believe is a phenomenon of nature which should be studied and not simply dismissed. So hearsay is enough evidence for you to believe in? Before we knew of CPR, drowned or suffocated people stayed clinically dead. Gods did not invent/discover CPR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 There is a logical disconnect here. Most NDE's happen in hospitals OR they happen when SCIENCE is there to resuscitate them. Praise SCIENCE. A higher success rate of raising people from the dead than gods have. How do you know? Cite your source. I am not against science. I simply think science doesn't have the answer for everything yet. One of those things is consciousness. It is beyond explanation of present day science how someone can be clinically dead and yet aware of what is going on in the hospital and even beyond the operating room. Sorry, I don't buy the present explanations. We are not talking about raising the dead here - we are discussing what I believe is a phenomenon of nature which should be studied and not simply dismissed. In almost all NDE experience that they have checked, the patients brain stem was still working, which would account for what people are seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I was half listening to this same program while doing some wiring in the house. I think it was the minister who had a NDE and said something about his grandfather being at some ornate gate in heaven. Made me wonder what vision Buddhists get if they have NDE's. Also, if these people are being sent back did their god fuck up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tealeaf Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I've read over Pam Reynolds experience as well. Nothing all too remarkable. And the kicker is this: she - or any NDE - did not actually die! If you die, you don't sit up and recount your experiences. You stay dead. The content is always completely lacking in remarkability as well. You saw dead relatives? Great. I "see" people in my dreams all the time too. Funny how the content of the experience (when it comes to mysticism and supernatural claims) is ALWAYS something they've learned about BEFORE the NDE. This is especially key in cases where people claim they were never spiritual or religious but became so after the NDE due to what they saw. Great. You grew up in a society that panders these kinds of fantasies and a huge chunk even condones them. Not hard to see where they got the mental content. There's plenty to learn in the field of cognitive neuroscience but there's always one thing that seems to hold true, as with all our new discoveries: They have a basis in the natural, physical world. We still don't know how it all works, but everytime we gain knowledge it seems to always sit in our physical realm (for these purposes anyway). Now remember that we can only percieve a very small part of that physical realm. To me, if there is anything remarkable about these experiences, it is simply that we still don't know how to explore them a guage them. The fact that let's say Pam Reynolds did not actually die, and that her physical brain was preasent in the midst of all that other physical stimuli leaves plenty of room for a natural explanation. Rememeber that there is a lot of conscious experience we filter all the time. And we still don't know the nature of consciousness to full extent....but the further we go I'd bet everything I have that we won't be somehow leaving the physical world. Why is it so hard for people to grasp that after death 'feels' pretty much like before birth?? It's the same basic physical concept. Your brain in it's physical state to percieve stimuli is not there, therefore no consciousness. Now, to what extent could an intact, tissue-live, unconscious brain be affected by stimuli that it would inevitbly reincorporate into experience upon waking? That is the question that fascinates me. Even after a flat lined EEG, one who "comes back" will have still been bombarded by all the same physical stimuli anyway. How might that change the new conscioussness given new brain stimuli? I haven't read those other links yet though, so maybe they go into this a bit too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 So hearsay is enough evidence for you to believe in? Before we knew of CPR, drowned or suffocated people stayed clinically dead. Gods did not invent/discover CPR. So what other kind of evidence do you propose? Can scientists design an experiment for this? Is it experimentally verifiable? Are these people all lying or hallucinating? Is this issue not worth investigating? I mean, come on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 So hearsay is enough evidence for you to believe in? Before we knew of CPR, drowned or suffocated people stayed clinically dead. Gods did not invent/discover CPR. So what other kind of evidence do you propose? Can scientists design an experiment for this? Is it experimentally verifiable? Are these people all lying or hallucinating? Is this issue not worth investigating? I mean, come on.. They have "tested" the claims (been pointed out in this thread) but you do not like the results I guess. Every NDE claim comes from within the realms of SCIENCE where the claimant was resuscitated. Just like our dreams (the ones we remember) happen in that transitional state of consciousness, so too are the NDE memories. Do we really take our dreams seriously? Here is a little experiment you can try if you want to. You need another person and preferably one with CPR experience. Lie on the floor, take 10 deep breaths and exhale fully, hold the last breath, eyes closed. The second person assumes a CPR position over your chest but just applies a firm steady downward pressure. You will pass out and you will have a dream. Second person to wake you up after 5 seconds. You will see REM through the eyelids. We did this as teens and the dream always seemed longer than the time we were out. This is not an NDE but puts you in that transitional dream state. If you have any heart conditions or you are not healthy, don't try it please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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