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Freedom Entails Responsibility


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Agree? Disagree? Why?

 

Behold, we are in the Lion's Den!

 

Rip it a new one.

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Agree? Disagree? Why?

 

Behold, we are in the Lion's Den!

 

Rip it a new one.

 

 

I agree - Every 'freedom' that you want and go after will probable have a price to pay.There will be consequences and responsibilities and one must be willing to face that and live with it.

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Freedom to me, is to be free from coercion (in choices and actions) from the power of others. In order to be responsible in our freedom, we have to understand what it means to be enslaved. Then we can truly appreciate what good our choices can do for us and others. Children who aren't abused, but cared for, don't understand freedom. They are under the guiding power of adults. It's when we are on our own that we learn what freedom is.

 

We aren't just responsible for our own freedom, because if we only think of our own desires, our actions will probably hurt others. In turn, they may desire to subdue us, and there will be a power struggle. We need to balance our choices and actions with the effects they have on others. "Do no harm" should temper our freedom.

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Freedom to me, is to be free from coercion (in choices and actions) from the power of others. In order to be responsible in our freedom, we have to understand what it means to be enslaved. Then we can truly appreciate what good our choices can do for us and others. Children who aren't abused, but cared for, don't understand freedom. They are under the guiding power of adults. It's when we are on our own that we learn what freedom is.

 

We aren't just responsible for our own freedom, because if we only think of our own desires, our actions will probably hurt others. In turn, they may desire to subdue us, and there will be a power struggle. We need to balance our choices and actions with the effects they have on others. "Do no harm" should temper our freedom.

 

I agree with what you say agnosticator.

 

One must be very carful with the 'freedom' they want because as I stated above - there will be consequences for 'self centered freedoms'.

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One must be very carful with the 'freedom' they want because as I stated above - there will be consequences for 'self centered freedoms'.

 

Yes, "self-centered" says it better with fewer words. :grin:

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I think there are many areas where we don't have freedom inside our own minds. We are socialised into the society we are born into, and a lot of what we just take for granted still enslaves us. I think we have a responsibility to teach our kids not to just accept everything they hear, not to just be a mindless consumer just because everyone else seems to be, and not to be inherently dishonest because "everyone is". Freedom involves a lot more than not just being physically chained.

 

 

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There are two types of freedom: freedom from and freedom to. Both come with responsibility, for sure. Without that, one just has a mess without boundaries.

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Depends on your definition of freedom as well as other's definitions of freedom.

 

I don't know what political freedom is anymore. All I know is what personal freedom is. I find mine by living as an expat. But I'm still limited by visa problems and what not.

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Agree? Disagree? Why?

 

Behold, we are in the Lion's Den!

 

Rip it a new one.

 

I don't believe we are free because we are constantly in relationship to stuff/others, but I sense freedom when the my immediate relationships promote wellbeing for them and me.....take someone else's success or a healthy environment. With that, as your question alludes to, there is responsibility to be governed by those rules which promote such.....wisdom. Unfortunatately, wisdom is not black and white as we would desire. I think we are scare of wisdom by the fact that it DOESN'T always follow some particular set of rules. And, oddly enough, security is found in something stable within something that is constantly changing.

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Agree? Disagree? Why?

 

Behold, we are in the Lion's Den!

 

Rip it a new one.

 

I don't believe we are free because we are constantly in relationship to stuff/others, but I sense freedom when the my immediate relationships promote wellbeing for them and me.....take someone else's success or a healthy environment. With that, as your question alludes to, there is responsibility to be governed by those rules which promote such.....wisdom. Unfortunatately, wisdom is not black and white as we would desire. I think we are scare of wisdom by the fact that it DOESN'T always follow some particular set of rules. And, oddly enough, security is found in something stable within something that is constantly changing.

Ah persistent, petulant End3!

 

If you are suggesting that we can never free ourselves from the constraints of causality then I agree. I think we are bound up with Nature.

 

I like your take on wisdom and find it to be very insightful.

 

"Security is found in something stable within, something that is constantly changing."

 

That my good man, is genius (in my opinion).

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Agree? Disagree? Why?

 

Behold, we are in the Lion's Den!

 

Rip it a new one.

 

I don't believe we are free because we are constantly in relationship to stuff/others, but I sense freedom when the my immediate relationships promote wellbeing for them and me.....take someone else's success or a healthy environment. With that, as your question alludes to, there is responsibility to be governed by those rules which promote such.....wisdom. Unfortunatately, wisdom is not black and white as we would desire. I think we are scare of wisdom by the fact that it DOESN'T always follow some particular set of rules. And, oddly enough, security is found in something stable within something that is constantly changing.

Ah persistent, petulant End3!

 

If you are suggesting that we can never free ourselves from the constraints of causality then I agree. I think we are bound up with Nature.

 

I like your take on wisdom and find it to be very insightful.

 

"Security is found in something stable within, something that is constantly changing."

 

That my good man, is genius (in my opinion).

 

I wish that I could claim all of that explanation for myself...part is me and part came from an old man dying of cancer....his reported last speech. I will see if I can find it on the web. It does, though, seem to make good sense.

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Children who aren't abused, but cared for, don't understand freedom. They are under the guiding power of adults. It's when we are on our own that we learn what freedom is.

Is it that un-abused children don't understand freedom, or simply don't value it?

 

I don't completely know what I think about this. I grew up in an intact, loving family. My fiancee did not. She is arguably tougher than I, but also a lot more anxious and deals with a lot more guilt and over-compensates in raising her children and has some intimacy issues. My wife had some issues along these lines as well. Although both of those women have helped me obtain some useful "street smarts", and have made me less naive and more empathetic, I prefer my ability to be laid back and take life as it comes to their high anxiety any day. And they both would have traded places with me in a heartbeat.

 

I maintain that a reasonably well-realized, aware parent can treat a child well and yet instill in them an awareness of the suffering of others and the value of the security and love that surrounds them. There is a tendency to coddle children and shield them from the pain and suffering in the world and allow them to think that it is somehow none of their personal concern. It needn't be so.

 

That said, in many ways, my children and my fiancee's children are self-absorbed shits, on account of the fact that when we were raising them in their most formative years, we were also young and inexperienced and not so fully realized and aware, and we over-protected them. Also, I was a self-absorbed shit myself back in the day, for similar reasons; and I daresay my fiancee, while not so self-absorbed, was not so functional either, because of all the damage she sustained.

 

Maybe children should only be raised by grandparents, I don't know ... the young can be baby factories and hand them over to the old-timers. My fiancee and I both have incredibly warm memories of our grandparents. Then again, I'm talking about changing the current child-grandparent dynamic, which would probably cause it to quit working for what it is and introduce some of the same limitations that parents "enjoy".

 

Sorry, I don't mean to turn this thread into a debate on nature vs nurture or something, but I just was struck by your comment about abused childhoods being somehow an advantage for making better use of freedoms.

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Is it that un-abused children don't understand freedom, or simply don't value it?

 

Freedom for me was escaping parental demands to go out and play. I don't know, maybe both.

 

I maintain that a reasonably well-realized, aware parent can treat a child well and yet instill in them an awareness of the suffering of others and the value of the security and love that surrounds them.

 

Maybe in hindsight as an adult, they realize it. But it seems children don't appreciate their situation until they experience life for themselves, and see what kind of people their parents are compared to what's out there.

 

...I just was struck by your comment about abused childhoods being somehow an advantage for making better use of freedoms.

 

I think they might appreciate experiencing freedom from coercion more than those with an ideal upbringing who haven't been coerced and don't know the meaning of truly being coerced. So they value their freedom from abusive parents. But I don't know how they can "make better use of freedoms". I don't quite get what you mean by that.

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I think they might appreciate experiencing freedom from coercion more than those with an ideal upbringing who haven't been coerced and don't know the meaning of truly being coerced. So they value their freedom from abusive parents.

I'm reluctant to advance the idea that abused children are better off in the long run than well-treated children in any overall way. In part, because I think a little naivete or self-absorption is much less of a handicap (and much easier to overcome) than the self-hatred, shame, guilt and/or anxiety and insecurity that flows from abusive childhoods.

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I think they might appreciate experiencing freedom from coercion more than those with an ideal upbringing who haven't been coerced and don't know the meaning of truly being coerced. So they value their freedom from abusive parents.

 

I'm reluctant to advance the idea that abused children are better off in the long run than well-treated children in any overall way. In part, because I think a little naivete or self-absorption is much less of a handicap (and much easier to overcome) than the self-hatred, shame, guilt and/or anxiety and insecurity that flows from abusive childhoods.

 

Me either. I only ever had an abusive childhood and I have had trouble with all the abovementioned delights. From my experience, it can make you determined to make a better life for yourself like I tried to, or push you further into a victim mentality. I think that to overcome this crap you need a mix of determination, resilience and natural defiance. Not everyone gets that, and for those who don't freedom is very hard to find. Kind of traps you in vortex where you continually set yourself up for further abuse then you punish yourself or others when it happens. It takes courage and time to deal with the demons of an abusive childhood. Sadly for some people, they are stuck with it.

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.... determination, resilience and natural defiance.

 

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Neither does one have to live in a bubble. I have always liked the lyrics of Australian band Powderfinger's song "Let It Roll Right By You"

 

 

Your gentle pace it provides a rhythm for the unwashed few of us

Lock and loaded past is a prison for the crimes of the universe

Do you have the information to decide whether you really care

C'mon you know that it's hard to complain about the way you live

 

So please don't let it roll right by you

Just think if the same thing happened to you

Would you be happy to walk in my shoes

 

I'm already tired of your chronic compassion fatigue

The final turd in the dungheap of every post modern disease

Are you in the situation to decide whater you really care

It's hard to believe you'd look me in the eye and turn away again

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  • 3 weeks later...

Try this. For those fearful of hell, I don't recommend watching this.

 

Gheeze, I dislike technology....

 

Maybe this will work:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At32U3xIlY8

 

Edit: for those interested, you can search Herbert Broome video. My apologies for tech failure.

 

There's another old one, a memento mori inscribed on a tombstone that goes something like this:

 

As I was once, so now are you

As I am now, so soon shall you be

Take up your cross and follow me

 

Under which some wit is supposed to have added:

 

To follow you is advice well meant,

I'd take it as heaven sent,

If only I knew where you bloody well went!

 

The French have a slangy saying, "Tu vas ramasser!" Roughly speaking it means, "You'll get what's coming to you." However, it's probably better translated as, "Now you gonna git it!"

 

Either way, the sentiment doesn't scare me any more, end. I had rather do the best I can with what I have, and go with that, than spend my time trying to find Jesus or in other words, church-crawlin'. If my former neighbours and my heirs and assigns don't hate my memory too much, then that'll be a bonus on it.

Casey

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Try this. For those fearful of hell, I don't recommend watching this.

 

Gheeze, I dislike technology....

 

Maybe this will work:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At32U3xIlY8

 

Edit: for those interested, you can search Herbert Broome video. My apologies for tech failure.

 

There's another old one, a memento mori inscribed on a tombstone that goes something like this:

 

As I was once, so now are you

As I am now, so soon shall you be

Take up your cross and follow me

 

Under which some wit is supposed to have added:

 

To follow you is advice well meant,

I'd take it as heaven sent,

If only I knew where you bloody well went!

 

The French have a slangy saying, "Tu vas ramasser!" Roughly speaking it means, "You'll get what's coming to you." However, it's probably better translated as, "Now you gonna git it!"

 

Either way, the sentiment doesn't scare me any more, end. I had rather do the best I can with what I have, and go with that, than spend my time trying to find Jesus or in other words, church-crawlin'. If my former neighbours and my heirs and assigns don't hate my memory too much, then that'll be a bonus on it.

Casey

 

 

Sounds like wisdom to me Casey. I'm getting there, but don't give up on me.

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Try this. For those fearful of hell, I don't recommend watching this.

 

Gheeze, I dislike technology....

 

Maybe this will work:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At32U3xIlY8

 

Edit: for those interested, you can search Herbert Broome video. My apologies for tech failure.

 

Poor deluded old man. It makes me sad how brainwashing affects children and the elderly. Christians should be ashamed of themselves.

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I'd say that keeping your freedom requires (in a practical, not necessary moral sense) using it responsibly, because if your exercise of freedom hurts too many others, they'll retaliate and remove that freedom from you.

 

I don't give strangers (or some of the neighborhood kids!) free access to my house because I don't trust them not to hurt my stuff. You might be able to argue that that's a bad example because they had no rights to be in my house to begin with, but then you have to ask where I get property rights from in the first place, what it is that makes that chunk of dirt mine with the right to kick other people out. So let's take the example of a public park that everyone is free to use. If someone make a nuisance of themselves, they can get kicked out and are no longer free to use that park.

 

And since we're in the Lion's Den, I'll go ahead and bring up politics. To me, the questions of freedom, the role of the government, etc comes down to how much freedom we can give people without them abusing it. If, for example, corporations were free of environmental regulations and ended up being good stewards of the land and air (either because the people in charge thought it was important, or just because the goodwill of their neighbors and consumers means a better bottom line) then I'd consider it wrong for the government to set up the EPA. But if they abuse their freedom and pollute the water table, streams, air, etc then someone(s) will take that freedom away from them, either by a class-action lawsuit or government regulations. Then of course, it can swing the other way where the gov't takes away too much freedom, or takes too much freedom/power for itself, and become the entity that is causing damage.

 

I guess I equate freedom and power. I didn't feel very free from my parents until I got a job with enough money to have the purchasing power to make my own decisions. This gave me power over myself. It also gave me the power to pursue hobbies that my parents would not have chose for me, so when I gained power over myself I took it away from them. So I guess to me, freedom is maximizing everyone's power over their own selves and minimizing the power anyone has over anyone else.

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