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Goodbye Jesus

Should We Have Kids?


Torvik

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Noggy, I've thought the same thing. So many kids out there who don't have families. Maybe we should plug into their lives instead. But then again, life's a bitch. There's all kinds of suffering out there that I'm not aware of, that I'm doing nothing about. If only Jesus would come back and make it all better... (Hope that doesn't come across as harsh. It's just that while living as a Christian I spent a lot of time being distraught over the pain in the world, and feeling guilt over how good I have it as a Canadian. I'm too interested in living my life just for other people. "I've got my cards dealt to me, and you've got yours. Let's both do the best we can.")

 

Drop in the bucket argument is a shitty one. You're responsible for you, just because kids out there are suffering doesn't mean you should just let them suffer. You can't help all of them, but you can help some of them. Ignoring them and popping out more IS incredibly selfish. You do what you want, but just remember there are 2 kids out there who have no family who are being fucked over. It could be your fault depending on how you feel about fault during inaction.

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If you have 2 kids now, you are going to be in your 50's when they are late teens and early 20's. When you are 50 something, things change, they always change.

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I realize it's pretty ballsy for someone who's never been in a relationship to give relationship advice but here I go anyways:

 

 

Best case scenario for me would be that my spouse is also an atheist/agnostic/humanist/whatever but failing that (it would be statistically more likely for me to find a secular Catholic) I could live with my children growing up in church so long as they were taught to think for themselves. They could read the Bible all day everyday, so long as they knew they were more than welcome to read books that critiqued it without worrying about mom/dad having an aneurysm and fighting with each other. So in that sense, I'm pretty much in agreement with HZ.

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No way would I have kids with an evangelical. Deist, Unitarian, lukewarm Christian...maybe. But not someone who is going to frighten them with hell.

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No way would I have kids with an evangelical. Deist, Unitarian, lukewarm Christian...maybe. But not someone who is going to frighten them with hell.

Ah, you're less concerned about the kids being indoctrinated than you are with your own contempt of Christians.

 

The elite have you Ro. You have absorbed their values completely. Congrats. They still won't let you in the club.

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No way would I have kids with an evangelical. Deist, Unitarian, lukewarm Christian...maybe. But not someone who is going to frighten them with hell.

Ah, you're less concerned about the kids being indoctrinated than you are with your own contempt of Christians.

 

The elite have you Ro. You have absorbed their values completely. Congrats. They still won't let you in the club.

 

Nice post sniping asshole. He is just clearly worried about his kids living in fear of hell. Your failsnipe is made worse by your inability to discern basic ideas from writing.

 

Now go answer back in that healthcare thread, you know, where you said you'd respond after I summed it up in my own words.

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No way would I have kids with an evangelical. Deist, Unitarian, lukewarm Christian...maybe. But not someone who is going to frighten them with hell.

Ah, you're less concerned about the kids being indoctrinated than you are with your own contempt of Christians.

 

The elite have you Ro. You have absorbed their values completely. Congrats. They still won't let you in the club.

 

 

Are you a mind reader now? You may think so, but you are not. My family is Christian, and we are a very close family. Most of my friends are Christian, just not the on-fire types. Is it elite to want to raise a child with someone who has compatible ideas of child rearing?

 

I don't know what club you are talking about, but it does not matter; I can't think of any I want to join except the very decentralized and informal ones like the mile-high club.

 

Funny that a guy who fruitlessly carries water for the rich attributes such a desire to me. Projection, anyone?

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... a guy who fruitlessly carries water for the rich...

I have no desire to derail this thread further, but I'm curious. What leads you to believe that I do this? Because I prefer free markets and recognize that private property is coextensive with liberty?

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Bob, I caught what you said about forcing the burden of existence on someone. Again: life, a bitcheth thou arteth. But luckily, if someone just has no use for the gift of life, there are measure they can take to remedy that, right? (Unless they're afraid of Hell. In which case, they had better make it look like an accident.)

We can have a friendly debate about how much of a gift life is, or isn't. But the bottom line for me is that children are, by definition, unwilling participants in the game of life. They don't get to choose whether or not they are obliged to experience it. You do. Take that choice seriously. If you think life is a great bargain, then at least acknowledge that it has serious downside risk and do everything in your power to provide a stable, sustainable environment of love and acceptance and basic needs being met, before you even think about having them. And if you think a fundie pairing with an agnositic / atheist can provide that -- if you seriously believe that -- well, okay, at least you took some time to ponder the question, even if I can't agree with your conclusions.

 

As an aside, the question of whether or not I am happy that I am here (I'm not) and the question of whether, now that I find myself here anyway, I find life sufficiently compelling to continue on (I do) are really two different considerations. They influence each other, to be sure, but making them synonymous is a little bit like conflating the question of whether we should have gotten ourselves into the real estate bubble and whether, given that we DID get into it, the appropriate response is for everyone to off themselves.

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... a guy who fruitlessly carries water for the rich...

I have no desire to derail this thread further, but I'm curious. What leads you to believe that I do this? Because I prefer free markets and recognize that private property is coextensive with liberty?

 

"The elite have you ... You have absorbed their values completely. Congrats. They still won't let you in the club."

 

 

Too easy. :HaHa:

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You didn't answer my question douchebag.

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I have two kids. It's very rewarding, especially since my agnostic wife and I are in tune. But being a parent is hard enough when childrearing philosophies mesh almost perfectly. Being a kid is hard enough without Mom and Dad at odds about childrearing.

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You didn't answer my question douchebag.

 

 

I did but you are too stupid to realize it.

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You didn't answer my question douchebag.

I did but you are too stupid to realize it.

Oh, I see your implication. But I have yet to see that free markets and private property rights benefit the rich exclusively. They benefit everyone.

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You didn't answer my question douchebag.

I did but you are too stupid to realize it.

Oh, I see your implication. But I have yet to see that free markets and private property rights benefit the rich exclusively. They benefit everyone.

You expressed a desire not to derail this thread. I agree. If you want to debate free markets and private enterprise, start another topic.

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You expressed a desire not to derail this thread. I agree.

A minor point of agreement, but I'll take it.

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Torvik I think biology runs deep. Religion is paper thin in comparison. If you both want to have children then I think you would regret letting religious differences prevent that from happening.

 

I would want them to think things through for themselves, which she's not a huge fan of.

If this is accurate then I would concentrate on this disagreement between you two. I would respectfully argue with her on this point. I have a difficult time believing that in her heart of hearts she doesn't want her kids to think for themselves.

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Torvik,

 

For what it's worth, I'll share with you my family's struggle with parents who believed differently. Maybe it will help. Hopefully it won't muddy the situation.

 

I was raised by a "Reformed Mormon" (for lack of a better term) dad. Basically my dad believed that Christianity strayed after the early church and was revived with the advent of Mormonism. Mormonism, however, strayed significantly from what it should have been and was in need of reform. An insignificantly small band of believers held true to the "true" teachings of Christianity/Mormonism and formed the Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), which held beliefs similar to a mix between Southern Baptist and Assembly of God with bits of Mormonism sprinkled in. Eventually even the RLDS church strayed, and my dad received a message from God to leave the church. Some 25+ years later he is trying to find others who are still on the right track, but has failed to discover that he is holding on to a failed effort.

 

My mom originally believed similarly to my dad, out of respect and love for him more than anything else. While I was in middle school, or junior high (whatever they call it in Canada), my mom changed her beliefs significantly. She basically became fundamentalist Christian and rejected everything non-Biblical, including most of my dad's beliefs. I was about 12 years old when this came about, and perhaps it was just poor timing as I was entering my teenage years, but it hit me hard.

 

I ended up siding with my dad's beliefs. My only sibling, my older brother, was about 15 at the time and became non-partisan. My parents argued often, and my dad would belittle my mom's beliefs (sometimes to the point of belittling her personally). Eventually I began to engage in the same behavior. Come to think of it, I've never apologized to my mom for mistreating her, and I'll have to make a point to do so soon. Anyway, the down-and-dirty is that the differences in beliefs drove a wedge between our family with my dad and I on one side, my mom on the other side, and my brother sitting on the sidelines.

 

Personally, as I mentioned before, my mom's change hit me hard. I cannot explain what was going on in my mind or why I was feeling the way that I was, but I remember vividly one event that summarizes the net effect of how it hit me. I was in school one day, standing at the top of a staircase looking down, and I thought about throwing myself down the stairs. I fantasized about being in a hospital bed with my mom by my side, telling her that she was wrong and she needed to regain her beliefs. For some reason I didn't go through with it, possibly just because I knew it would hurt pretty bad and/or kill me. If memory serves me right, my parents stopped arguing not more than a couple weeks after that day, and they "agreed to disagree". Since then, their relationship improved. If you ask them now, they have the best relationship anyone could possibly have. If you ask me, they are delusional. Ignorance truly is bliss in their case.

 

Where am I at today? I don't believe in Christianity, Mormonism, or any religion. My separation from my dad's beliefs about 10 years ago eventually contributed to a period of about 2 years of completely cutting off all ties with both my parents. My poor mom felt as if I had died, she was in so much grief. In the past couple years I have established a new relationship with them, but we don't discuss anything of importance. They're basically no closer to me than a random co-worker, although I do consider them family still. My wife is a Christian. She and I are childless, not for lack of trying, but right now I think that is a good thing for us.

 

I know this situation, or anyone else's situation for that matter, cannot be a guide for how you should handle your situation. However, a couple things I've learned from it are:

 

1. Raising me in a mixed-belief family was not good for me. My best years are those after I left home behind and chose to truly think for myself.

2. Being married with different beliefs was not good for my parents, although they seem to think they're doing great now.

3. Teenage years are not to be fucked with. Introducing complex life changes to a kid going through puberty is a recipe for disaster.

 

Aside from these things, I have no other insight. I myself am trying to figure out if it's okay to have kids with my wife. My situation is so similar to yours, and I don't have the answer either. I just wanted to share my personal experience for whatever it's worth. Maybe you'll glean something out of it that I didn't that will help you with your situation.

 

If you're interested, you can get more of my story and current situation from this blog:

http://www.ex-christian.net/blog/96-computerguycjs-blog/

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I like having children. So far they're by far the best thing I've ever done or had in my life. I can't imagine continuing to be happily married and not have children in the equation, be they biological, adopted or fostered. Incidentally, whilst I take noggy's points, the questions that you pose make no difference were you to have birth children or adopted children so I wouldn't think in that way in regards to whether or not you have children with your wife.

 

From the sounds of things you and your wife both respect each other and where you stand with your respective beliefs, it also seems that you've already talked about this somewhat so I expect you will be able to come to a decision that you're both happy with. There will always be aspects of child rearing which parents disagree and differ on, as long as you can continue to discuss and work together in a respectful and understanding way, generally children fair well with parents who think and act differently. In fact I'd argue that a child who grows up understanding that there is no black and white world of morality, values and beliefs will have a better start in life than a child who is brought up with a rigid narrow minded view of the universe. The question is more to do with how you as a couple will find a healthy balance, where neither person feels undermined and both accept a reasonable compromise and in a manner which will not cause you to fight about, over and in front of the children.

I think it can be done, but only in an already very stable, loving and respectful relationship.

Also, consider that parents who take seriously their responsibility of setting an example for their children often get more entrenched in their religious views. I rarely see anyone deconvert because they have kids. They either get more entrenched in beliefs (because they need to set a better example) or they deconvert despite the kids.

 

This has been my observation too. I've known several people who were nominal Christians, weren't regular church goers, and were living normal secular lives, but when children came along, all of a sudden they felt a strong urge to be back in the church and saw indoctrinating their children as a natural responsibility. Even some I went to Christian school with, who previously were quick to denounce our fundamentalist upbringing and all the craziness that went along with it, are now mooing about what a blessing it was to be taught at a Christian school by Christian teachers. If people really learned from their own childhoods, we might expect to see each generation be a little better than the last. Instead, they defend their inability to consider a different way by talking about how they now understand why a Christian education is so important because they're the all knowing parent, and you have to be a parent to understand. Even though I fit this myself, it would be hard for me to have children with someone who had a Christian school upbringing, simply because of how people tend to revert to how they were raised, not having any other experience with how to deal with children.

 

 

I'm not sure if I'm just a bit of an anomaly, but regarding the above, having children did the opposite for me. I write about this topic a little in respect to how my mum and dad were in my deconversion story, but what I fail to go into detail about is that one of the main triggers for my own deconversion (and my husband's) was the birth of our daughter. Neither of us could cope with the idea of brainwashing our children, we wanted them to decide for themselves what they believed and at the time despite being very commited christians and believing C was an 'answer to prayer' we had both had decided that we would teach her our beliefs as just that - our personal beliefs and faith - not truth nor fact.

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I think it can be done, but only in an already very stable, loving and respectful relationship.

 

Yes. I was a child of an atheist and a liberal Christian. Neither respected the other's beliefs. As I explored my own ideas about religion and spirituality based on my primary models (parents), I could not help, as a kid, internalizing the harsh judgments each parent had put on the others' beliefs (or lack). It sucked.

 

Phanta

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