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Goodbye Jesus

Why Are You Christians So Insincere With Your Hell Beliefs?


Not_Scarevangelist

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Generally it is only God who knows when a human truly commits the unpardonable sin. I doubt that a drama king ex Christian who is obsessed with talking about the bible and religion committed it *chuckle*. Unless I hear a still small voice saying a person is hopeless, I will continue to pray for unbelievers and talk to those who are WILLING to talk to me.

The Christian is supposed to align their will to God's and God's will is this: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

It would be beautiful if bah humbuggers like Par, Florduh and Realist will become former bah humbuggers and they get to heaven smile.png

 

A lot of unbelievers do not even know what this text means: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

They use 21st Century language to interpret the text. This is what it means: "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism" NIV

This just goes to show that unbelievers need believers to pray a "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" prayer for them. God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

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Christianity will never die but atheism would.

But that doesn't say anything about Christianity never dying.

Rom 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 

The God of mainstream Christianity is not Yahweh or Jehovah, and that's the deity this verse refers to.

<snip>

 

I get to be scissor hands this time

 

Hey you Centauri, you're being R2D2-ish again, both Jews and non conformist Christians believe in a Creator God. Atheists do not believe in any God. That text says that EVERY knee will bow to God and that includes the knees of atheists, ergo atheism will be obsolete.

I'm holding a mirror up so you can view your own robotic behavior.

You used Rom 14:11 to assert that Christianity would never die when it doesn't support such a notion.

Following false gods is precisely what Jehovah warned his people not to do in Deut 13.

The God of mainstream Christianity is not the Hebrew god of the Old Testament.

In fact, Christians go out of their way to make sure their version of God replaces the Hebrew God.

Christians are in no better position than atheists because neither believe in the Hebrew God, ergo Christianity will be obsolete.

 

I'll restore the part you ignored to let you explain where Jehovah announces that he's a trinity and will give his glory to another.

 

The God of mainstream Christianity is not Yahweh or Jehovah, and that's the deity this verse refers to.

The God of mainstream Christianity is a three headed hybrid where Christians declare Jesus as God.

 

Isa 42:8

I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

God doesn't give his glory to others, and that includes Jesus.

 

In context, the original quote that Paul lifted declares that Jehovah is a singular being, there are no others, and there are no other saviors.

There is none else.

 

Isa 45:21-23

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

Paul then pushes Jehovah aside and inserts Jesus into the quotation.

Philip 2:10

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

 

I seriously doubt if that type of revisionist theology is pleasing to the God of the Old Testament.

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A lot of unbelievers do not even know what this text means: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

They use 21st Century language to interpret the text. This is what it means: "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism" NIV

But God does show favoritism.

He makes promises to a group of people he calls "chosen", elevating them to a higher status than other groups of people based on whim, even when the "chosen" people commited sins that were worse than the nations they invaded.

 

This just goes to show that unbelievers need believers to pray a "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" prayer for them.

The prayers of Christians won't do a bit of good.

Prov 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

If you think the God of the Old Testament is going to listen to you, you're seriously mistaken.

 

God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

Acts 17:30 states that "in the past" God winked at ignorance, and that was written some 2,000 years ago.

Rom 1:20 states that is God so obvious that nobody has an excuse.

On what basis are you saying that God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers?

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Christianity will never die but atheism would.

But that doesn't say anything about Christianity never dying.

Rom 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 

The God of mainstream Christianity is not Yahweh or Jehovah, and that's the deity this verse refers to.

<snip>

 

I get to be scissor hands this time

 

Hey you Centauri, you're being R2D2-ish again, both Jews and non conformist Christians believe in a Creator God. Atheists do not believe in any God. That text says that EVERY knee will bow to God and that includes the knees of atheists, ergo atheism will be obsolete.

I'm holding a mirror up so you can view your own robotic behavior.

 

 

Eh, I think my bothering you is making you less robotic wink.png

You're still missing the point about why I wrote that. Unbelief is the WORST type of sin, even worse than satanism.

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Christianity will never die but atheism would.

But that doesn't say anything about Christianity never dying.

Rom 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 

The God of mainstream Christianity is not Yahweh or Jehovah, and that's the deity this verse refers to.

<snip>

 

I get to be scissor hands this time

 

Hey you Centauri, you're being R2D2-ish again, both Jews and non conformist Christians believe in a Creator God. Atheists do not believe in any God. That text says that EVERY knee will bow to God and that includes the knees of atheists, ergo atheism will be obsolete.

I'm holding a mirror up so you can view your own robotic behavior.

 

 

Eh, I think my bothering you is making you less robotic wink.png

You're still missing the point about why I wrote that. Unbelief is the WORST type of sin, even worse than satanism.

And you missed my point.

If unbelief is the worst type of sin, as you so firmly declare, then mainstream Trinitarian Christianity is skating on thin ice.

The mainstream Christian god is not the Hebrew god of the Old Testament.

The Trinitarian Christian God is a concocted, hybrid version of the Hebrew God after Christians revised and edited it.

The warnings given by the Hebrew god in Deut 13 are completely ignored in favor of creating a new god.

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A lot of unbelievers do not even know what this text means: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

They use 21st Century language to interpret the text. This is what it means: "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism" NIV

But God does show favoritism.

He makes promises to a group of people he calls "chosen", elevating them to a higher status than other groups of people based on whim, even when the "chosen" people commited sins that were worse than the nations they invaded.

 

This just goes to show that unbelievers need believers to pray a "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" prayer for them.

The prayers of Christians won't do a bit of good.

Prov 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

If you think the God of the Old Testament is going to listen to you, you're seriously mistaken.

 

If a person genuinely misunderstands God's character and comandments God will not hold it against them.

 

 

God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

Acts 17:30 states that "in the past" God winked at ignorance, and that was written some 2,000 years ago.

Rom 1:20 states that is God so obvious that nobody has an excuse.

On what basis are you saying that God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers?

 

True, but some people were indoctrinated to think that God is a big bully waiting to zap people and that caused them to not want to get close to Him. Now, if they continue being doubtful and they don't respond to that yearning for God that He placed in all of us then that will be wrong.

 

A lot of unbelievers do not even know what this text means: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

They use 21st Century language to interpret the text. This is what it means: "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism" NIV

 

But God does show favoritism.

He makes promises to a group of people he calls "chosen", elevating them to a higher status than other groups of people based on whim, even when the "chosen" people commited sins that were worse than the nations they invaded.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: He chose them because they ALLOWED Him to work in their life. He found their faith to be genuine.

 

This just goes to show that unbelievers need believers to pray a "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" prayer for them.

The prayers of Christians won't do a bit of good.

Prov 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

If you think the God of the Old Testament is going to listen to you, you're seriously mistaken.

 

 

Thumbelina: There you go again, being a main arbiter.

 

God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

Centauri said: Acts 17:30 states that "in the past" God winked at ignorance, and that was written some 2,000 years ago.

Rom 1:20 states that is God so obvious that nobody has an excuse.

On what basis are you saying that God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers?

 

Thumbelina: When they sincerely misunderstand Him or His teachings even though they tried to understand.

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You're still missing the point about why I wrote that. Unbelief is the WORST type of sin, even worse than satanism.

 

Then why did God create us with limited, chimpanzee-like, minds? Why does God provide no objective evidence that God exists? Why does God provide no objective evidence that Christianity is right or the Bible is the word of God?

 

If your God exists and is all knowing then your God knows what it takes for people to believe. If your God has the power to interact with our world then your God chooses to leave us hanging. If you God is going to torture people forever because of how your God made us then your God is pure evil.

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If a person genuinely misunderstands God's character and comandments God will not hold it against them.

So the sin of unbelief is acceptable if a person is genuine in their "misunderstanding" of God.

If someone is sincere about rejecting your version of God, are they being genuine?

Who determines what "misunderstanding" is?

As an aside, when God killed David's first child with Bathesheba, what was the child's understanding about God?

Also, when God killed Uzzah for attempting to steady the ark when the oxen stumbled, do you consider that an act of divine overkill?

Seems like Uzzah reacted as any devoted believer would have done.

What do you suppose God would have done to Uzzah if he had let it fall?

In this case, didn't Uzzah genuinely have good intentions by trying to keep the ark from tipping over and smashing to the ground?

Even though touching the ark was forbidden, one would think a loving God would understand the instinctive reaction to keep such a holy object from being desecrated by falling to the ground.

Also, when David performed an illegal census at the urging of God, why did God subsequently kill 70.000 people for the sin that David committed?

Since God incited David to perform this illegal census, didn't David genuinely think God wanted it done?

 

God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

 

centauri:

Acts 17:30 states that "in the past" God winked at ignorance, and that was written some 2,000 years ago.

Rom 1:20 states that is God so obvious that nobody has an excuse.

On what basis are you saying that God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers?

 

Thumbelina:

True, but some people were indoctrinated to think that God is a big bully waiting to zap people and that caused them to not want to get close to Him. Now, if they continue being doubtful and they don't respond to that yearning for God that He placed in all of us then that will be wrong.

Well, I don't see your qualifiers actually in the text of either Acts 17:30 or Romans 1:20.

You've added extra-biblical exemptions.

Also, in 2 Thess 2:10-11 it says that God will send delusions to people ensuring that they believe lies.

If these people were already genuinely damned, there wouldn't be any need for God to pile on more lies.

It seems that God does indeed hold unbelief against people regardless of whether it's sincere or not.

Also, Jesus claimed to speak in parables with the intention of confusing members of his audience so that they would not be saved.

 

A lot of unbelievers do not even know what this text means: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

They use 21st Century language to interpret the text. This is what it means: "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism" NIV

 

 

centauri:

But God does show favoritism.

He makes promises to a group of people he calls "chosen", elevating them to a higher status than other groups of people based on whim, even when the "chosen" people commited sins that were worse than the nations they invaded.

 

Thumbelina: He chose them because they ALLOWED Him to work in their life. He found their faith to be genuine.

They were chosen because of Abraham, who lived long before the Exodus.

Their faith was not even genuine according God, who repeatedly declared them stiff necked and rebellious.

They did sins that were worse than the "heathen" countries they invaded.

 

This just goes to show that unbelievers need believers to pray a "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" prayer for them.

 

centauri:

The prayers of Christians won't do a bit of good.

Prov 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

If you think the God of the Old Testament is going to listen to you, you're seriously mistaken.

 

Thumbelina: There you go again, being a main arbiter.

But that job has already been claimed by you.

I'm not in Christian forums telling people that they have to believe in my reality in order to be saved.

You're here doing just that.

 

God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

 

Centauri said: Acts 17:30 states that "in the past" God winked at ignorance, and that was written some 2,000 years ago.

Rom 1:20 states that is God so obvious that nobody has an excuse.

On what basis are you saying that God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers?

 

Thumbelina: When they sincerely misunderstand Him or His teachings even though they tried to understand.

Once again, you've rewritten the scripture to make exceptions.

It doesn't say anything about sincerely misunderstanding.

It flatly says they have no excuse.

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Generally it is only God who knows when a human truly commits the unpardonable sin. I doubt that a drama king ex Christian who is obsessed with talking about the bible and religion committed it *chuckle*. Unless I hear a still small voice saying a person is hopeless, I will continue to pray for unbelievers and talk to those who are WILLING to talk to me.

The Christian is supposed to align their will to God's and God's will is this: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

It would be beautiful if bah humbuggers like Par, Florduh and Realist will become former bah humbuggers and they get to heaven smile.png

 

A lot of unbelievers do not even know what this text means: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

They use 21st Century language to interpret the text. This is what it means: "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism" NIV

This just goes to show that unbelievers need believers to pray a "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" prayer for them. God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

 

Nice try princess, but no cigar!

 

Now let's have a look at the truth you're trying to cover up.

 

1.

You say above that you doubt that I've committed the unpardonable sin.

Sister, even if I came right out and said that I had, you'd REFUSE TO BELIEVE ME. In fact, you're going to REFUSE TO BELIEVE that anyone here has done so. Therefore, if anyone here actually has done so, there's no point in telling you, is there? Yet another HUFWOT, not of our making, but of yours. More evidence that you've crafted "clever" ways of plugging your ears against us, so that you can just keep right on doing what you want.

 

2.

Here's another one of your clever devices, which is designed to bend us to your will.

Your going to keep on at us until you hear that still, small voice of God telling you to stop.

How do we know that you haven't been directly ordered by God to leave us all alone? You could have heard His voice months or years ago and we'd never know would we? How can we? There's just no way we can independently verify this. So we're forced to trust you on this.

Guess what? We don't trust you anyway. Not one iota and you can't force us to do so. PageofCupsNono.gif

 

You could just as easily be actively disobeying God and we'd never know because you'd never tell us. Or, you could experience a psychological episode that masquerades as the "Voice of God" and we'd have no way of verifying that either. Once again, to further your own selfish ends, you've cleverly crafted a fool-proof means of keeping us in ignorance.

3.

Ok, all SHOULD come to repentance, but not all WILL.

And those who do repent still have the choice to reject God and go back to how they were.

That is the vital part of this passage you are deliberately ignoring. It's conditional, not absolute.

The offer is to all, but not all will accept it and some of those who do will then choose to reject it. It's conditional on the free choice of each person. It's between each person and God, so... Butt out!

 

You, Thumbelina, don't figure in the equation. It's not up to you, anywhere along the line. So, you can't write yourself into this by claiming that anyone's understanding is at fault. There are millions of illiterate Christians in the world that will never have the correct understanding you claim is necessary to commit the unpardonable sin. Yet, if they choose to reject God, He will honor their choice. If he doesn't, then He's a tyrant. That's what tyrants do - refuse to accept the choices of others. Sound familiar?

 

By tying the rejection of God to a "correct" understanding of scripture (Yours...of course!) you've made it impossible for every illiterate Christian who ever lived to choose to reject God. You've subverted their God-given free will, just like the tyrant you really are. You'll notice that I'm not talking about the ignorance of unbelievers here, so your link to Acts 17:30 doesn't apply. By making your "correct" understanding the only way by which anyone can reject God, you've elevated yourself above Him, putting yourself on His throne.

 

huh.png Ooops! Wasn't there supposed to be an angel of light who once decided to do that?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

No Thumbelina. PageofCupsNono.gif We can see thru your clever words.

 

We aren't deceived and we don't trust you. We will never give you power over us.

 

BAA.

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Christianity will never die but atheism would.

But that doesn't say anything about Christianity never dying.

Rom 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 

The God of mainstream Christianity is not Yahweh or Jehovah, and that's the deity this verse refers to.

<snip>

 

I get to be scissor hands this time

 

Hey you Centauri, you're being R2D2-ish again, both Jews and non conformist Christians believe in a Creator God. Atheists do not believe in any God. That text says that EVERY knee will bow to God and that includes the knees of atheists, ergo atheism will be obsolete.

I'm holding a mirror up so you can view your own robotic behavior.

 

 

Eh, I think my bothering you is making you less robotic wink.png

You're still missing the point about why I wrote that. Unbelief is the WORST type of sin, even worse than satanism.

 

You realize that most who are considered Satanists are atheists that are making a mockery of Christianity right? That's not to say there aren't serious ones out there, but most followers of Anton LaVey were atheistic/deistic satanists.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

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Centauri wrote...

If you think the God of the Old Testament is going to listen to you, you're seriously mistaken.

 

Thumbelina: There you go again, being a main arbiter.

 

And of course you wouldn't do such a thing, would you, Thumbelina?

You wouldn't make your interpretation of scripture the only valid, correct and true one, would you? If you can do it, then Centauri has got just as much right to do it as you have. If Centauri can't do it, then neither can you. This cuts both ways - not just your way.

 

Oh and please don't bring out that tired old cliche - that you have the correct understanding of scripture, but Centauri doesn't. You know full well that the true sign of the genuine Christian can been seen in the spiritual fruit they display - not in the "correctness" of their understanding.

 

Oh and please don't bring out that tired old cliche - that you're proceeding with the blessing of the Holy Spirit, but Centauri isn't. If that were true, we'd see that in the good quality of your spiritual fruit. We have seen your fruit and it's rotten, from the skin right in to the core. No thank you!

 

Since you REFUSE TO BELIEVE us, we'll just return the compliment.

Since you wave away our experiences, we'll just return the compliment.

Since you treat us with contempt, we'll just return the compliment.

 

Have a nice day! smile.png

 

BAA.

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not willing that any should perish

 

but if they do, that's cool too.

 

 

LOL! Yeah an all powerful, all knowing, all good God desires that none should perish but somehow billions will perish anyway. Something doesn't add up! Oh I know. God could have not made those people to begin with. Free will is a crap excuse Christians use to shift the responsibility off of God.

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Eh, I think my bothering you is making you less robotic wink.png

You're still missing the point about why I wrote that. Unbelief is the WORST type of sin, even worse than satanism.

 

I'm an unbeliever. :-)

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I'm late to this convo, but I wanted to address something I saw on page one: The way things are now, to help 1 starving person would be to doom another in that region. Seems like it would make more sense to try to build up people around me till they no longer need it, and let it spread from there.

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I'm late to this convo, but I wanted to address something I saw on page one: The way things are now, to help 1 starving person would be to doom another in that region. Seems like it would make more sense to try to build up people around me till they no longer need it, and let it spread from there.

I like this thought. I like it a lot.

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Unless I hear a still small voice saying a person is hopeless, I will continue to pray for unbelievers and talk to those who are WILLING to talk to me.

 

YOU MEAN YOU'RE GOING TO TALK TO ME NOW??!! AND TO BAA??!! OMG!!!! BECAUSE I SURE AM WILLING TO TALK TO YOU! AND I KNOW BAA HAS BEEN TRYING TO! AND I'M SURE OTHERS THAT YOU NO LONGER TALK TO WOULD BE VERY HAPPY TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE GOING TO TALK TO ALL OF US WHO ARE WILLING! PRAISE THE LARD!!!! jesus.gif

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Generally it is only God who knows when a human truly commits the unpardonable sin. I doubt that a drama king ex Christian who is obsessed with talking about the bible and religion committed it *chuckle*. Unless I hear a still small voice saying a person is hopeless, I will continue to pray for unbelievers and talk to those who are WILLING to talk to me.

 

So I take it a still small voice told you to ignore me? Hey that is fine. You don't have to talk to people you don't want to talk to. And if the boss of the entire universe takes the time out of his busy schedule to warn you not to talk to me that is okay too.

 

Besides I can see how well it is going for everyone else you do talk with so it probably would have ended the same.

 

The Christian is supposed to align their will to God's and God's will is this: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

It would be beautiful if bah humbuggers like Par, Florduh and Realist will become former bah humbuggers and they get to heaven smile.png

 

All God has to do is provide objective evidence that proves Christianity is true and God is real. But God knows that God would rather have billions perish. (Unless, of course, God doesn't exist which would make perfect sense given what we know)

 

A lot of unbelievers do not even know what this text means: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

They use 21st Century language to interpret the text. This is what it means: "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism" NIV

 

Well they don't know what you think it means. Then again most Christians don't either. Christians can't agree regarding Bible interpretations.

 

This just goes to show that unbelievers need believers to pray a "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" prayer for them. God winks at ignorance therefore God will not hold ignorance against unbelievers.

 

Why is it needed since God already knows every need? Does God want Christians to beg? And when some people do get lifted up in prayer sometimes God's answer is "no" and they go to hell anyway. It does not make sense that there is a need for prayer. God already knows and God is going to answer however God will answer. The only thing that changes is the amount of groveling.

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Eh, I think my bothering you is making you less robotic wink.png

You're still missing the point about why I wrote that. Unbelief is the WORST type of sin, even worse than satanism.

 

I'm an unbeliever. :-)

 

An unbeliever or a disbeliever?

 

I for one could never say I was an unbeliever. An unbeliever is someone who claims they don't believe, but deep down they do, but will do anything to avoid having to face the responsibility that comes with belief. That's what I've been taught in my many years as a Christian. By claiming to be an unbeliever, you are just giving people like Thumb more fuel to add to the fire. They will see you as someone they can reconvert... someone who has deliberately rebelled against God and simply wants to sin rather than live a Godly life.

 

A disbeliever on the other hand is someone who is simply UNABLE to believe. It's something that can't be helped and can't be changed unless adequate evidence OR logical argument is presented to enable you to believe.

 

Disbelief is NOT a choice. Unbelief IS a choice. Unbelief is a willful act of rebellion against God, whereas Disbelief is not.

 

I actually find the term "unbeliever" highly offensive. It's like calling a woman or "twat" or a black African a "nigger".

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I'm an unbeliever. :-)

 

An unbeliever or a disbeliever?

 

I for one could never say I was an unbeliever. An unbeliever is someone who claims they don't believe, but deep down they do, but will do anything to avoid having to face the responsibility that comes with belief. That's what I've been taught in my many years as a Christian. By claiming to be an unbeliever, you are just giving people like Thumb more fuel to add to the fire. They will see you as someone they can reconvert... someone who has deliberately rebelled against God and simply wants to sin rather than live a Godly life.

 

A disbeliever on the other hand is someone who is simply UNABLE to believe. It's something that can't be helped and can't be changed unless adequate evidence OR logical argument is presented to enable you to believe.

 

Disbelief is NOT a choice. Unbelief IS a choice. Unbelief is a willful act of rebellion against God, whereas Disbelief is not.

 

You are on to something. I keep forgetting how much that crap fucks up the mind. You are right we need to speak to the Christians in Christianeese.

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I'm an unbeliever. :-)

 

An unbeliever or a disbeliever?

 

I for one could never say I was an unbeliever. An unbeliever is someone who claims they don't believe, but deep down they do, but will do anything to avoid having to face the responsibility that comes with belief. That's what I've been taught in my many years as a Christian. By claiming to be an unbeliever, you are just giving people like Thumb more fuel to add to the fire. They will see you as someone they can reconvert... someone who has deliberately rebelled against God and simply wants to sin rather than live a Godly life.

 

A disbeliever on the other hand is someone who is simply UNABLE to believe. It's something that can't be helped and can't be changed unless adequate evidence OR logical argument is presented to enable you to believe.

 

Disbelief is NOT a choice. Unbelief IS a choice. Unbelief is a willful act of rebellion against God, whereas Disbelief is not.

 

You are on to something. I keep forgetting how much that crap fucks up the mind. You are right we need to speak to the Christians in Christianeese.

 

When you think about it "unbeliever" is a highly offensive and derogatory term. It would be like going into a forum of black africans and referring to them as "niggers" or going into a forum of homosexuals and callng them "faggots". It's an insulting term that portrays the victim as second class citizens as if they are somehow lower than everybody else.

 

I've probably gotten to know Thumb better than almost anyone else here on this website and I am very much aware that she sees us all as willfilly rebellious against God. That we have CHOSEN to defy him simply because we want to sin. So when she uses the term "Unbeliever" to describe us those are the things going through her mind.

 

Sorry Thumb, but I think you know how much I find that term offensive. Well you should! :)

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When you think about it "unbeliever" is a highly offensive and derogatory term. It would be like going into a forum of black africans and referring to them as "niggers" or going into a forum of homosexuals and callng them "faggots". It's an insulting term that portrays the victim as second class citizens as if they are somehow lower than everybody else.

 

I prefer the term "rationalist". I'm with Nonstampcollector on this. It's just silly to describe a group by what it doesn't do. You wouldn't introduce yourself and a non-robot.

 

I've probably gotten to know Thumb better than almost anyone else here on this website and I am very much aware that she sees us all as willfilly rebellious against God. That we have CHOSEN to defy him simply because we want to sin. So when she uses the term "Unbeliever" to describe us those are the things going through her mind.

 

I've heard the same thing repeated many times while in Church. Christians don't bother to think about the absurdity of it. They are looking for a way to discredit alternative perspectives. If an idea solves that problem then it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense.

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I for one could never say I was an unbeliever. An unbeliever is someone who claims they don't believe, but deep down they do, but will do anything to avoid having to face the responsibility that comes with belief. That's what I've been taught in my many years as a Christian. By claiming to be an unbeliever, you are just giving people like Thumb more fuel to add to the fire. They will see you as someone they can reconvert... someone who has deliberately rebelled against God and simply wants to sin rather than live a Godly life.

 

A disbeliever on the other hand is someone who is simply UNABLE to believe. It's something that can't be helped and can't be changed unless adequate evidence OR logical argument is presented to enable you to believe.

 

Disbelief is NOT a choice. Unbelief IS a choice. Unbelief is a willful act of rebellion against God, whereas Disbelief is not.

 

I actually find the term "unbeliever" highly offensive. It's like calling a woman or "twat" or a black African a "nigger".

 

Interesting! I wasn't taught that, and after looking the terms up, definitions seem to be all over the place. Many times they are treated as synonyms. I hadn't given this much thought up until now. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

I think of disbeliever and unbeliever as negative terms. They are no different than calling us infidels. Religions use these as insults towards outsiders. So you are right in that unbeliever is a dirty word. But I would add that labeling outsiders as not believing, is a symptom of something ethically very wrong with the religion. All these terms are purposely divisive. Christians are proud of being sheep, but it doesn't give them (and especially the meek and mild Jesus) the right to label everyone else as goats.

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I for one could never say I was an unbeliever. An unbeliever is someone who claims they don't believe, but deep down they do, but will do anything to avoid having to face the responsibility that comes with belief. That's what I've been taught in my many years as a Christian. By claiming to be an unbeliever, you are just giving people like Thumb more fuel to add to the fire. They will see you as someone they can reconvert... someone who has deliberately rebelled against God and simply wants to sin rather than live a Godly life.

 

A disbeliever on the other hand is someone who is simply UNABLE to believe. It's something that can't be helped and can't be changed unless adequate evidence OR logical argument is presented to enable you to believe.

 

Disbelief is NOT a choice. Unbelief IS a choice. Unbelief is a willful act of rebellion against God, whereas Disbelief is not.

 

I actually find the term "unbeliever" highly offensive. It's like calling a woman or "twat" or a black African a "nigger".

 

Interesting! I wasn't taught that, and after looking the terms up, definitions seem to be all over the place. Many times they are treated as synonyms. I hadn't given this much thought up until now. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

I think of disbeliever and unbeliever as negative terms. They are no different than calling us infidels. Religions use these as insults towards outsiders. So you are right in that unbeliever is a dirty word. But I would add that labeling outsiders as not believing, is a symptom of something ethically very wrong with the religion. All these terms are purposely divisive. Christians are proud of being sheep, but it doesn't give them (and especially the meek and mild Jesus) the right to label everyone else as goats.

 

 

 

You are right,definitions seem to be all over the place, many times they are used interchangeably (I tend to do this too). This is what I meant at the time I wrote my post:

 

unbeliever definition

a person who does not accept any, or any particular, religious belief <--- That was so my definition

 

disbeliever definition:

doubter, questioner, agnostic; see critic 1, skeptic.

 

Even the above definitions basically use those terms interchangeably. I don't want to nor am I going to quibble over definitions. To a believer, unbeliever/ disbeliever is one who does not believe in God, whether it is consciously or unconsciously is another matter.

 

.........

 

About "all" people being rebellious, all people cannot be painted with one stroke of a brush. Different people have different personalities and paths so (as I am learning) believers cannot condemn others.

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not willing that any should perish

 

but if they do, that's cool too.

 

I don't agree. I think you'd do alright in heaven.

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