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Goodbye Jesus

A Story Of Being "trapped"


Thought2Much

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Well, I take back what I said about my husband accepting me. Boy, was I wrong. :vent:

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Well, I take back what I said about my husband accepting me. Boy, was I wrong. :vent:

 

I've been following your story, notazombie, and I'm sorry your husband has been acting the way he has. It's situations like yours which have given me real pause about telling my wife about myself.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm so sorry, Trapped. I'm so sorry that you are suffering in silence. I just wanted to send you a hug, because I have nothing else to offer you.

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Thanks, blackpudd1n, I appreciate it.

 

I'm going to reply to your questions in the "Blinders" thread here, because I don't want to sidetrack that discussion.

 

I'm usually too busy with the normal day-to-day stuff to really dwell on my situation all that much. Keeping up with the kids, maintaining the house, going to work, and other mundane things keep my mind occupied a lot of the time. Sunday mornings still suck, but since I don't believe in any of what's going on at church, I can tune it out. Well, most of the time, anyway. Every now and again someone will do or say something that nearly sends me over the edge and pushes me into full rant mode, but then I can usually get on the internet and vent about it later.

 

I still haven't tried dropping any further hints of my deconversion. I'm just not ready for the kinds of arguments that this will cause, or for the cold shoulder I'll get from my wife when things start to break down. As I've mentioned before, her method of dealing with conflict is to shut down completely, and I can only imagine how long I would be locked out emotionally if she were to be told what's going on inside my head. If we didn't live as close to her Pentecostal family as we do, the situation might be different, because she wouldn't go to them for backup, but for now I think I just have to continue to keep my mouth shut.

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Damn that sucks, Trapped :( It's just not fair. My sister and I were estranged for 10 years, and only re-established our relationship 2 years ago, and now I've deconverted and I'm so scared I'm going to lose her all over again, over something as stupid as my non-belief. I don't think she even has a non-Christian friend. But I'm hoping that she won't cut me off, because we're the only ones that know what we went through as kids. No-one else can possibly understand, because they just weren't there. It's scary, though. She and her husband are firmly rooted in the baptist church, and her husband's family, also. It'll be April before I see her again; I really hope it's not the last time :(

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I read your story for the first time a couple of weeks ago, it was one of the first posts I read on this forum. I didn't comment at that time b/c I was still too afraid to interact with people here b/c I was still holding out hope I could reconnect with my faith (which obviously hasn't happened). You commented on my post yesterday about my struggle with being in church and not believing anymore. You said it could be worse, I could be going through it alone w/out my husband. And you were SO right. When I read your story the first time it made me feel so grateful that my husband and I are on the same page. In fact we talked about that after reading what you wrote. So I just wanted to come here and "pay my respect" to you. I can only imagine what you're going through and I thank you for sharing it and helping others with your experience. The stuff you've written has really been a help to me.

 

Much love and thanks!

2H

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You're welcome, 2Honest. I'm glad that I may be able to help some people (even in some very small ways) even in the midst of my experience. Of course, if things ever truly go kerflooey in my life because of my deconversion, then I may need all the support I can get!

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Trapped, just now I read your story and this thread for the first time. I am glad to see that you are adjusting to "life in the closet," because I am like you. I cannot see that it would work to tell your wife about your deconversion. Some people will not, under any circumstances, forgive the person who has left Christianity. For me, it's a good five years now. I'm single and childless, but I have a lot of siblings and both parents were still alive at the time, though my mother died half a year later.

 

The family has been through various peaks and valleys, with relationships ebbing and flowing. I don't think they had ever encountered an unbeliever before and didn't know what to expect or how to react. But as they see that I steadfastly stand my ground despite what happens, they have taken their own stand. I am not accepted as a full-fledged family member.

 

For example, they would rather see me on the street if I were in need than provide a home for an atheist. Or if a family decision needs to be made, I am not consulted even though it affects me. When it is convenient, they are nice to me--probably to prove the love of Christ. My point is, as you know, that fundamentalist religion is uncompromising.

 

Whether or not you can live in the closet indefinitely remains to be seen. Some people apparently can do this far better than others. We are not all the same as you are aware if you know Myers-Briggs.

 

Which reminds me. As I was reading that part where you said you don't easily communicate emotionally, I wondered if you are able to learn the rules of emotional communication and act on them even if it feels bogus. I'm thinking just possibly it would work wonders, providing you were able to pull it off.

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R.S. Martin, thanks for your thoughts.

 

According to the Myers-Briggs tests I've taken (both on the internet and in real life), I'm an INTJ with the following breakdown:

Introverted: 56
Intuitive: 25
Thinking: 88
Judging: 44

 

I show most of the classic er... symptoms of being an INTJ, which has both helped and hurt me in various ways. This doesn't mean that I run roughshod over people's feelings, but that I tend to think more about what will make things work better in logical terms instead of emotional ones. It is very, very difficult for me to think about things in purely emotional terms, to the point where it's difficult for me to understand how other people can make their decisions based primarily on emotions.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm adding this here, because it's as good a place as any, I suppose. I didn't want to start a brand new thread for it, and I don't come up with enough content often enough to justify starting up my own blog. This story may help give a little more perspective into what triggered me to start down the road to unbelief.

 

What Kind of Answer Is That?

 

I first met my wife in 1997. Not long before we met, my wife's brother, who is an Assemblies of God pastor, and his wife had just had their fourth son, Jason. From the beginning of his life, Jason had serious health problems; at random times, he would just stop breathing, and his parents would have to perform emergency resuscitation and rush him to the hospital. I never did find out exactly what either my family or the doctors think caused this condition. I've heard hints that it may have been a botched delivery, but it was never made clear to me, and I've never actually directly asked my brother in-law and his wife about it.

 

After the first few months, it was pretty clear that Jason wasn't developing like a normal child of his age. While most babies at six months old are starting to do things like roll over, or smile, or sit up, Jason would just lie there, or he would sleep. Even when he was conscious, he never seemed to have the same kind of awareness that a baby of his age should have had. After the first year, things only got worse.

 

Following a number of panicked trips to the emergency room, Jason was finally put on a ventilator. He was given a tracheotomy, and was only able to breathe through a tube inserted into his neck. Eventually, when it was obvious that his breathing wasn't improving, he was moved from the children's wing of a regular hospital to a special hospital for children with special needs. The children in this hospital were all either seriously injured due to accidents or abuse; a few were lucky enough to be able to be partially rehabilitated and go back to their own homes, while others were going to be there until they were old enough to be moved to an adult facility of some sort.

 

Through this entire time, Jasons parents prayed for him. My father in-law, who is also an Assemblies of God pastor, also prayed for him constantly. My mother in-law, who may not have been an educated woman, but who was referred to by some as "a mighty prayer warrior," prayed for Jason almost incessantly.

 

A couple of more years went by. At the age of three, Jason was growing, but he still never developed properly. While his body kept getting larger, he never looked like anything but a giant infant, as opposed to taking on the build of a toddler. Because of the tracheotomy, he never could speak, even if he had the intellectual capacity to do so, which was doubtful. He could make a high pitched cooing or gurgling sound through the breathing tube when he was happy or upset, but that was the extent of his verbal communication. He could barely move his limbs, although based on his responses to touch and pain, he seemed to be able to feel them. Throughout this entire time, my mother in-law would visit Jason every chance she got. She would hold him, talk and sing to him, sometimes for hours, and she would pray over him. It seemed that Jason recognized my mother in-law and enjoyed the time with her, because he would make his cooing noises often when she held him.

 

By this time, the medical bills were really starting to pile up for my brother in-law's family, because Jason required full-time care and monitoring. His church, in partnership with other churches in the area, held big fundraisers and prayer rallies for Jason. Everyone prayed for him whenever the family was together. He was prayed over at virtually every mealtime and evening prayer that my wife and I said at home.

 

Then, on a Saturday afternoon in December of 2001, we got a call from my brother in-law. Jason had died earlier that day. In a way, his cause of death was almost as mysterious as the cause of his developmental problems, because we never really got a clear story of what happened. I have always suspected, as have others in the family, that Jason's parents finally turned off the equipment that was keeping him alive, and decided to let God do whatever was his will at that moment. It's possible that we may never know, although it wouldn't cause me to lose any respect for them if this was the case.

 

This entire chain of events had led me to have serious doubts about the nature of God. Why would a loving god allow this kind of harm to happen to a baby? Why would he allow this child's suffering to continue for nearly five years? How could he let so many fervent, honestly offered prayers be ignored for so long? Why didn't he allow a miracle to be performed for Jason? Why didn't he allow a miracle to be performed for the other children at the children's hospital? How could God allow a family so faithful to him be tormented in such a way for so long? When Jason finally died, there was almost a sense of relief that it was over. Of course, my wife's family talked about how he was running, jumping, and singing in heaven, but why couldn't God have let him do that here? Was the problem because of us, because of some lack of faith on our part, or was the problem with God? Even today, almost exactly ten years later, his parents talk about how there were people "saved" because of the interactions they had with people they wouldn't have known otherwise if it weren't for Jason and his unfortunate condition, so this made his short, tortured life a blessing from the Lord. Then, and now, these words just ring hollow in my head and in my heart.

 

I just couldn't accept that as an answer. I still can't accept that as an answer. And that's one of the many reasons that years later I reached the conclusions that brought me here, and why I'm sharing this now.

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Hi Trapped!

 

Well, that's just a plain brutal story. I've seen many similar situations, since I work in health care. Situations like the one you describe--a disabled child, a faith-filled family believing for a miracle--used to cause me intense emotional distress and cognitive dissonance. (BTW, your and my Myers-Briggs scores are almost identical!)

 

This line used to give me comfort: "...my wife's family talked about how he was running, jumping, and singing in heaven". But you're right: why couldn't God have let him do that here? What imaginary stories do we tell ourselves to make us all feel better? You know, what's remarkable is that your wife's family is praising God for healing Jason 'in God's own way'. No matter how you slice it, God comes out the good guy (even when he's the bad guy). This truly mystifies me at this point.

 

It's stuff like this that brought me here, too. Time to call a spade a spade, people!

 

Thanks Trapped.

 

Peace.

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A girl that I went to Christian day school with just had to disconnect her one year old son, about a month ago. Occasionally, she would post pictures of him, and it nearly made me want to cry, to see a poor little baby with all the tubes coming out of his little body. At some point, I've given myself permission to no longer believe in Romans 8:28 - there are things that can happen that there cannot possibly be any good come out of that circumstance, and any god that expects us to sit here and do mental gymnastics, trying to figure out what the good is, ... well, it certainly isn't worthy of any worship.

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Tragic stories like Jason's are going on all the time, but it seems that god is showing himself by performing miracles through Tim Tebow on the football field.

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Thanks for sharing this, Trapped. I always enjoy reading the things that you write. I think you'd be a great blogger! :)

 

These questions were what drove me to de-conversion, too. Christians tend to handle the whole healing thing in a couple of different ways. If they believe healing is not a "given" and that god chooses who and when and how based on the situation, then they must find some comfort in his sovereignty and accept "his ways are higher". If they believe it's "always god's will to heal", then they must find some reason for why it doesn't happen. If it isn't his fault, it must be the fault of the humans. But even then they must be willing to accept the "mystery" of those situations we can't explain. Either way it involves mind-numbing mental gymnastics to "keep the faith".

 

I've had unexplained health problems for over 15 years. Trying to force my mind (I mean "renew my mind"!) to believe that "it is god's will to heal everyone", "Jesus paid for my healing on the cross", and that I just needed to "live in that reality" nearly drove me insane...literally insane! And I actually became sicker because of the emotional and mental roller coaster. When I didn't get results from all my research and diet/lifestyle changes and the doctors couldn't help me, I "put all my bets on God" and stopped doing things in the "natural" to get better. I ignored my symptoms and trusted God to heal me. I fully believed he would do it. I believed he was good, he loved and cared about me and would do a miracle. I believed it b/c I could find "proof" for it in the Bible, and I thought he said it directly to me (in my spirit) and b/c others "prophetically" told me that it would happen. But nothing happened. I only got worse.

 

This stuff is so dangerous! I personally know 2 women who are living that same life. I know enough about health to recognize how sick they are and how much they are ignoring what's going on. They totally overextend themselves and believe god is helping them and healing them. But he isn't, and it's just a matter of time before they hit a wall. I've seen them hit that wall, just like I did, over and over. But like me they just pick themselves back up and trust him again. And the scary thing is, in that world those are the people who are admired the most!

 

This is one reason I won't go back to church, I just can't stand to watch people live like that anymore. (And btw, these women and I used to "encourage" each other and they know I've been struggling physically/spiritually and have been out of church for a few weeks and yet I haven't heard from them at all.)

 

Even if I hadn't learned what I have about the inaccuracy of the Bible and all that, I think I would have walked away simply b/c of how unhealthy Christianity is for me. I'm so much more at peace now.

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2Honest, I have seen several situations similar to yours over the years. I have also known several people that got immensely excited because they were miraculously cured of cancer, who then died not long after. Of cancer.

 

I have thought about blogging before, but I have to admit I just don't have enough content in my head to do even a monthly blog. I also have a tragic character flaw that makes me put off doing any kind of regularly scheduled task. I find myself writing all the time spontaneously, but if I tried to do a weekly blog, I would eternally find myself saying, "Meh. I'll come up with something later." I am flattered and appreciative that others seem to like what I write, so I will continue to do that in the forums whenever something else strikes me.

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I've had unexplained health problems for over 15 years. Trying to force my mind (I mean "renew my mind"!) to believe that "it is god's will to heal everyone", "Jesus paid for my healing on the cross", and that I just needed to "live in that reality" nearly drove me insane...literally insane! And I actually became sicker because of the emotional and mental roller coaster. When I didn't get results from all my research and diet/lifestyle changes and the doctors couldn't help me, I "put all my bets on God" and stopped doing things in the "natural" to get better.

...

But nothing happened. I only got worse.

Hi, 2H

 

I am in a similar situation, being the recipient of some maternal genes destined to make my life miserable. What's really awful is that the fundies in my life (including my husband's family) keep blaming my problem on hidden sin in my life and they actually believe that healing is just one prayer away. I have distanced myself from those people and/or conversations.

 

Like you, I am so tired of people waiting for healing and they only get worse and worse. Then they have a good day and they phone you and say "God is really touching me today". You know how the rest of that story goes...

 

I simply cannot believe the Bible anymore. If it's not the literal Word of God (replete with promises), then it's just another book. And if it's just another book, why have we built upon it this empire called Christianity (or worse, Bible-believing Christianity)?

 

I can't do this anymore either!

 

Peace, 2H!

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Positivist, I knew that you, because of your occupation, would understand this situation as well as I can.

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This entire chain of events had led me to have serious doubts about the nature of God. Why would a loving god allow this kind of harm to happen to a baby? Why would he allow this child's suffering to continue for nearly five years? How could he let so many fervent, honestly offered prayers be ignored for so long? Why didn't he allow a miracle to be performed for Jason? Why didn't he allow a miracle to be performed for the other children at the children's hospital? How could God allow a family so faithful to him be tormented in such a way for so long? When Jason finally died, there was almost a sense of relief that it was over. Of course, my wife's family talked about how he was running, jumping, and singing in heaven, but why couldn't God have let him do that here? Was the problem because of us, because of some lack of faith on our part, or was the problem with God? Even today, almost exactly ten years later, his parents talk about how there were people "saved" because of the interactions they had with people they wouldn't have known otherwise if it weren't for Jason and his unfortunate condition, so this made his short, tortured life a blessing from the Lord. Then, and now, these words just ring hollow in my head and in my heart.

 

I just couldn't accept that as an answer. I still can't accept that as an answer. And that's one of the many reasons that years later I reached the conclusions that brought me here, and why I'm sharing this now.

 

you know Trapped, one of the things that keeps me from taking one drop of alcohol in my body today is remembering my last drunk in which I almost died.. (21 years ago)

 

It's people like you who help me so much in my own deconversion with the above, very sad paragraph. These are the posts that keep me from taking that poison into my body again. Thank you for sharing all of this my friend... thank you very much............

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Thanks, Positivist! I'm sorry you are dealing with health issues, too. But it is nice to know someone understands! I don't really have anyone I can talk to about this, other than jblueep. I'm SO thankful he's there for me, but it is different to talk with someone who is experiencing what I am. The people in our church were never the type who blamed the victim or questioned my faith or anything. They genuinely seemed to care. They just believed that life was all about seeing things through god's eyes and taking every good sign as evidence that he is working. But then what the heck do you do with all the bad signs! I kept up with it for awhile. I lived, ate, slept, and breathed "kingdom" (supernatural reality, healing, god's goodness, etc). I listened to hours of teaching, read books, went to conferences, on and on. It got me nowhere but more confused.

 

I think what really pushed me over the edge was when I got to the point where I got serious about "ministering" to other people. I just couldn't keep telling people god was good, praying for their healing, etc, without experiencing that for myself. I felt like a fraud. And I was so afraid of hurting people. I realized if I believed ministering to a person would actually harm them, something must be seriously wrong!

 

Trapped - I get you about the blogging thing. I love to write, but I'm terrible when it comes to anything that seems like a schedule. I had a blog where I used to write about my faith and stuff and had 8 whole followers! haha But I took it down a couple of months ago. Reading through it was so surreal. I felt like it wasn't even me who wrote those things.

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...I just couldn't keep telling people god was good, praying for their healing, etc, without experiencing that for myself. I felt like a fraud.

I felt like a broken vacuum cleaner salesman. "Look, it's a funky color, it'll look great in that corner of your living room, and it will bring you comfort when you think of sweeping." Sadly, it doesn't do what the company says it does. It's very self-definition is incorrect.

 

There's no end to the unraveling once you start pulling at that thread!

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I don't understand how one "equal partner" is allowed to have honest beliefs and opinions while the other one must STFU or somebody might be disappointed/offended/angry/etc. because one dared to arrive at a different conclusion.

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I don't understand how one "equal partner" is allowed to have honest beliefs and opinions while the other one must STFU or somebody might be disappointed/offended/angry/etc. because one dared to arrive at a different conclusion.

Flordauh, as I've said before, it's complicated.

 

When my wife and I first met, we were both devout Christians. When I met her, I had been a born again believer for about nine years, which was proof of some stability in her mind.

 

For Christians, one of the main criteria in finding a mate is that they also be Christian, in order to prevent the issues that come along with being "unequally yoked." As much as it may pain me to say it, there is some common sense buried in that particular verse. Two Christians, if they are compatible in other ways, will have an easier time getting along with each other than two people with dissimilar beliefs.

 

In a sense, I violated the implied social contract. I changed. For a Christian, a change like this isn't like the spouse deciding that his favorite color has changed from blue to red; this is a change that redefines the relationship. It completely changes the definition of who I am in my wife's mind.

 

For me, there are other things in the relationship that make it worth keeping: I still genuinely love my wife, I still love my kids. For her, if I am potentially going to tell the kids things that could wind up sending them to hell, is that a relationship worth keeping? Remember, she really believes this stuff. She believes in a literal hell, and there is no way I can talk her out of that. In her mind, if I come out in the open about my beliefs, then I am doomed to hell, and there is the potential of me taking our kids with me. That's pretty fucking serious for a Christian to contemplate.

 

That's why I'm silent about it, at least for now. I simply don't feel like tossing a stick of dynamite into the relationship at the moment, at least not until I can figure out a way to do a controlled demolition instead.

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That's why I'm silent about it, at least for now. I simply don't feel like tossing a stick of dynamite into the relationship at the moment, at least not until I can figure out a way to do a controlled demolition instead.

Hey Trapped. You are a wise and patient man, I think. It sucks to be in your situation, for sure. I really feel for you. I think you have wisely taken stock and decided to try to preserve that which is so important to you and your family.

 

Please keep writing. I love your "Sunday" stories! smile.png

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That's why I'm silent about it, at least for now. I simply don't feel like tossing a stick of dynamite into the relationship at the moment, at least not until I can figure out a way to do a controlled demolition instead.

Hey Trapped. You are a wise and patient man, I think. It sucks to be in your situation, for sure. I really feel for you. I think you have wisely taken stock and decided to try to preserve that which is so important to you and your family.

 

Please keep writing. I love your "Sunday" stories! smile.png

Thanks, Positivist!

 

I actually haven't had too many "Sunday" stories lately because I've barely been at church for weeks. The kids both got colds, got better, got new colds, and today I have a cold, so I didn't go. We don't take the kids to church when they're sick, which makes us bad Christians but good parents. I'm sure the other parents are thankful, though.

 

In a sick, twisted way it's almost been a relief that the kids and I have been sick (apart from the crankiness that accompanies it; oh, and the kids get cranky, too). It's actually less stressful being sick than being at church.

 

EDIT: I hope that I am being wise and patient. Sometimes I just feel like I'm cowardly and not assertive enough instead.

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We don't take the kids to church when they're sick, which makes us bad Christians but good parents. I'm sure the other parents are thankful, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I hope that I am being wise and patient. Sometimes I just feel like I'm cowardly and not assertive enough instead.

You may be bad Christians but you are good citizens from a public health perspective! Church is one big petri dish during flu season. No one should go! smile.png

 

And your situation is complicated and I truly think you are wise to proceed with sensitivity and caution, even if that means not really noticeably proceeding at times. I am so glad for Ex-C and the support to be had here!

 

Peace!

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