A Story Of Being "trapped"

[marmot]

I would trash the books, since I wouldn't want anyone else reading that dreck, either. But that's just me.

 

I agree - I just can't bring myself to donate our books. The thought of someone picking up one of my old books at Goodwill, paying money for it and taking it home to read just makes me shudder.

 

But we've found a great use for them. If you have a fireplace or outdoor fire pit, they make great kindling!

 

Part of me thinks that I really don't want someone else to spend money on these books (there are a couple of creation science books my mother in law gave me, a Dallas Willard, John Eldredge, Greg Boyd, a Philip Yancey, and a few scattered others). But, then I think that maybe they would just buy a new book and waste more of their money and give more money to the publisher.

 

And then there is the reuse/recycle side of me that thinks it would be such a waste to toss them out. And I guess I am a little emotionally attached to a few of them. I actually couldn't get rid of my C.S. Lewis...that might be years before I can dump that.

 

Thus, they have sat in purgatory for the last few months (my car trunk).

[Thought2Much]

I just downloaded a shitload of atheist podcasts onto my iTunes. The only other podcast I had on there before was Car Talk, so it's not like they'll be buried in a bunch of clutter. We'll find out if my wife ever looks at iTunes on my computer or not.

[Positivist]

I just downloaded a shitload of atheist podcasts onto my iTunes. The only other podcast I had on there before was Car Talk, so it's not like they'll be buried in a bunch of clutter. We'll find out if my wife ever looks at iTunes on my computer or not.

 

Eek! How daring!

 

I've recently downloaded a bunch of podcasts too. A third of them are atheist ones, and some are about the prominent philosophers--you know, all the stuff I should have learned in Philosophy 101 except I was praying in tongues under my breath the whole time so I missed it.

 

(GOD IS DEAD??? OMG!!! Shadakamladda.....)

[Thought2Much]

Eek! How daring!

 

Eh, we'll see if it's a daring move or not. She's typically been pretty respectful of my privacy, and doesn't seem to poke around in my stuff much, electronic or otherwise. If I don't do anything else she may never catch on.

 

I will continue to erase my internet browsing history, though. Some things that I've said online just don't need to be read by her or anyone in her family. Ever.

[Positivist]

I will continue to erase my internet browsing history, though. Some things that I've said online just don't need to be read by her or anyone in her family. Ever.

 

Sometimes it feels like Ex-C is a bunker hidden away in the woods. I'm so thankful for this place. I'm just sad that so many people have to look over their shoulders and erase their footprints when they come here.

[mcdaddy]

Trapped, I, like so many others on here, am in the same boat as you. I'm just gonna throw in my $0.02 here and tell you what I've basically told my wife, who still doesnt know quite the full extent of my deconversion.

 

"I've told God that if the bible is true, if all the needing Jesus for salvation stuff is true, that I accept that salvation, IF IT IS TRUE. But I've also learned alot of things that point to it NOT being a reality. So, if you ask me did all that stuff LITERALLY happen, ultimately i'd say "I dont know" or "I doubt it", but God knows my heart, and that its not the sacrifice I'm shunning, it's just the historocity of it I question, based on many factors that lead me in that direction."

 

Hope that helps in some small way.

[Thought2Much]

I guess the sudden download of almost a dozen different podcasts was a response to a video that she put on last night. It was an animated children's video about creation and Genesis. I couldn't even stay in the room while it was on. It was just horrible. Especially the part where it talked about how Adam and Eve chose to sin because God gave them the gift of freewill, and so that's why the entire world is shit now.

 

I think I need to hasten my coming out, regardless of what shit may be coming my way because of it. I cannot let this continue.

[electech98]

There does seem to come a point in time where you just can't take it anymore. I'm getting there with my wife and friends, too.

[Prestissimo]

Best of luck Trapped

[Thought2Much]

Best of luck Trapped

 

Thanks. I think I'm going to need all the luck I can get.

[Denyoz]

Dear trapped,

 

I have just read your thread in it's entirety. It's a sad situation but also quite fascinating. You write so well, it's a pleasure to read you. And congratulations for your "appearance" on the radio, that's an awesome achievement.

 

I want to share with you my impressions.

 

First of all, it seems to me that you are not just married to your wife, but to her whole family. It's like your wife never left home, she is still living under her father's authority. So you are married to her father! I'm sure you don't want that. It's not healthy.

 

You say you love your wife but does she love you? (Don't need to answer me, I'm just thought provoking)

 

No one dares to suggest divorce, but why not. Divorce is legal and sometimes it's the best solution. It's ok to consider it.

 

Now since you have children, this makes things more complicated. You can't just leave them there since you are partly responsible for their well-being. How old are they? If they haven't already started to do so, sooner or later they are going to ask questions. Serious questions like: does God exist? Where is he? How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?

 

Are you planning to tell them the truth or just remain silent? I have four kids. I have always been as honest as I could with them, even when it's difficult. To this day, they have all sided with me, the atheist, all 4 of them. I think children can sense when you are trying to feed them bullshit. No matter how much my wives and in-laws have tried to lure them to go to church, they have not succeeded because I don't go to church and I tell them that they don't have to go, and they know I'm telling the truth because my actions speak louder than my words.

 

I think your next move should be to stop going to church. But then what do I know You seem more intelligent than me.

 

Anyway keep us posted man, I am very much interested in what will happen next.

 

Denyoz

[Thought2Much]

First of all, it seems to me that you are not just married to your wife, but to her whole family. It's like your wife never left home, she is still living under her father's authority. So you are married to her father! I'm sure you don't want that. It's not healthy.

 

From what I can tell, my wife only sees her dad as head of his church, but not as head of our household. She ignores quite a bit of what he has to say about non-church matters, and she and the rest of her family don't even think he's making very good decisions for the church anymore. And, as I mentioned at one point in this thread, she doesn't get silly spiritual about most day-to-day stuff. If anything, because my father in-law is now a widower in his eighties, my wife has been taking on more of the parental role than the other way around. We're already starting to see more and more lapses in his judgment with things that should be common sense. So, in a way, I am also married to her family (or her dad), but I am trying to be understanding because he's going to need more and more help as he gets older.

 

No one dares to suggest divorce, but why not. Divorce is legal and sometimes it's the best solution. It's ok to consider it.

 

I actually have given it quite a bit of thought, probably a lot more than I've let on here. Besides the fact that I still love my wife very much (which is really the most important consideration in my mind), it wouldn't be good for me, my wife, or my two kids financially, either. I can't find a way that the positives outweigh the negatives for me with a divorce. If I come out and the relationship turns cold, then I'll reconsider my options.

 

Now since you have children, this makes things more complicated. You can't just leave them there since you are partly responsible for their well-being. How old are they? If they haven't already started to do so, sooner or later they are going to ask questions. Serious questions like: does God exist? Where is he? How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?

 

They're both under five, so you're right, it makes things even more complicated. It also makes a divorce that much less attractive.

 

Are you planning to tell them the truth or just remain silent?

 

After I've told my wife, then I'll try to figure out what to tell the kids and when. The opposition to whatever I'll have to say to them at that point about spiritual matters will be fierce, I'm sure.

 

I think your next move should be to stop going to church.

 

My father in-law can't be the pastor forever (and, as I mentioned, he's already starting to show signs of not being able to handle the job). If I haven't come out beforehand, then once he steps down (or dies), I'm out. I'm not going to his old church when another pastor is assigned to it, I'm not going to my brother in-law's church, and I'm not going to any other church.

 

But then what do I know You seem more intelligent than me.

 

I don't know about that. You seem pretty damn smart from what I read in your extimony.

 

Anyway keep us posted man, I am very much interested in what will happen next.

 

Oh, don't worry, I'll need someplace to put all of my thoughts when the shit really hits the fan. Thank you for your thoughts on all of this.

[Denyoz]

Hey, you're smarter than me, don't argue

 

You seem to know where you are going, I'm not worried. I think it's wise for you to wait and see what happens to your father-in-law and I'm glad to hear that you are planning to stop going to church. That's probably when things will start to change. Because words don't mean much if there's no action attached to it. It's good that you have already stopped worshipping and singing in church, so your wife is already somewhat aware of your diminishing interest in that area.

 

From your perspective, how acceptable is it to stop attending church? Over here, many christians don't go to church, and justify themselves saying: "God is everywhere, I don't need to go to church to see him" or "I believe in God but not in religion", and everyone is pretty much ok with that. How would it be received if you said something like that?

[Thought2Much]

From your perspective, how acceptable is it to stop attending church? Over here, many christians don't go to church, and justify themselves saying: "God is everywhere, I don't need to go to church to see him" or "I believe in God but not in religion", and everyone is pretty much ok with that. How would it be received if you said something like that?

 

Short answer: It wouldn't go over well at all if I tried that. Plus, I'd be lying if I said something like "I believe in God but not in religion."

 

I will admit to being "whipped" and a coward, should anyone wish to accuse me of either of those things. However, I will not lie about what I believe. If my wife were to ask me right now if I still believe, she would get nothing but the absolute truth from me.

[Akheia]

Trapped, I do not and will not call you a coward. You're trying as hard as any human could to make this right with yourself, your conscience, and your wife/family. It brings tears to my eyes to think of you beating yourself up. There is nothing wrong with trying to find the right way to fight a battle. If I knew of any resources that might help, I'd suggest them, but you've already considered all the basics--couples' counseling with a secular therapist would be the best idea I'd have.

 

Really the best thing I can say now is that a marriage between a believer and non-believer doesn't have to be a battle. I thought that too, till I found out that my MIL is a fervent Christian and my passed-on FIL was an equally fervent atheist. And yet they spent almost 30 years together and were blissfully, passionately, head-over-heels, writing-poetry-and-giving-insane-gifts in love from their teenaged years onward. They didn't let the difference in religion define them, and both had respect for the other's conscience. From what my husband says, they never really even argued, much less argued about religious stuff. Ten years after his death, she's still having trouble moving past him. It is possible for the unequally yoked to be happy. And as MM found out, sometimes what we think is going to be a big dump turns out to be a little toot. Your wife may already have some suspicions in that area. Good luck as you wrestle with this problem!

[Denyoz]

I agree with Akheia, you're far from being a coward, you've shown courage throughout this whole ordeal. You're being prudent. A guy has to protect what he's been investing in. You're also being respectful towards them. There is a time to be quiet and a time to speak out (gross, isn't this a quote from the babble?), like you said, if you're wife is interested in what you believe in, all she has to do is ask and then you can tell her, and it's likely she will be more receptive at that moment then if you just blurt it out to her.

[lyall]

Hi Trapped,

I would have used that name myself but it was already taken (lol)

 

I wish I could give you the short answer but I haven't found it myself yet and to be honest my situation is a little more complicated than yours.

I have read most of this thread but not all because it has got lengthy now and I want to respond to your initial post.

 

I am here to sympathise, primarily, but also to offer the following suggestion...

 

I think you can progress with a steady incremental withdrawal from church activities (without making any declarations ) to the point where your wife might turn round to you and say "You really aren't interested in god anymore are you?" Then you can say " Its not that I am not interested its just that there are things I am not happy about" then wait and see if she wants to know more rather than persuing her with all the contrary evidence. Be sad, not argumentative - nobody can argue with a quiet, sad person. I want to stand up and yell in church and tell everyone where they are going wrong... but nobody yelled at me to get me to see a point... I deconverted tiny piece by tiny piece until just a few days ago I thought to myself "that's enough - I no longer believe".

If you come across as unhappy and introverted it is better than being super-cool, or overconfident or anything else that raises a barrier. You don't want to throw down a challenge and you don't want to stand on an Athiest soap-box ripping her family's beliefs apart. You need her to ask you what's on your mind and when you tell her only give her itsy bits - let her do the digging and drawing you out and at the same time she may be chasing a few elusive thoughts of her own that have secretly bothered her over the years. You may be surprised and the thing is she would not have mentioned those thoughts to you because she didn't want to pull you down.

Athiests and Believers are like supporters of rival soccer teams - neither will convince the other - ever. It all has to come from within the individual - you can only assist the process without it looking as if you are doing anything at all. It will take time but it will be worth it.

KIndest regards - Lyall

[Thought2Much]

Hi, Lyall, and welcome to Ex-C. Sorry about already having the user name you wanted to use. I actually wanted to use something other than "Trapped," but it wouldn't let me use what I wanted to, so I settled on this one.

 

I'm all for the slow and gradual approach, and I think it makes sense, but I'm afraid some recent events (which I was going to detail tonight) may force my hand more quickly.

[Denyoz]

I'm all for the slow and gradual approach, and I think it makes sense, but I'm afraid some recent events (which I was going to detail tonight) may force my hand more quickly.

 

I can't wait to read it.

[Thought2Much]

Okay, so here's the story that the drama-llama has brought care of my in-laws' family. If you don't care to read about all of this family stuff, then just stop reading now.

 

Here's some background. My father in-law is pastor of the church that I, my wife, and our two kids go to. He is an 82 year-old widower. My 22 year-old nephew, who is my father in-law's grandson, is the worship leader. My nephew's father, who is my wife's brother, is the drummer on the worship team.

 

Are you still with me? I can't blame you if you're not. Anyway...

 

We have a woman that goes to our church who is nuts. Actually, we have several, but this woman in particular has been a problem. She is in her sixties, and has been married three times; she has been divorced twice, and widowed once. Her last marriage (the one which ended with her being widowed) could best be described as tumultuous, with multiple incidents of domestic violence, both because of him beating her and her beating him; she spent at least a couple of nights in jail because of it. (He died of a heart attack, by the way, not from being beaten. Just in case anyone was wondering.)

 

My nephew, who lives with my father in-law (because he gets in-county tuition for his college by living there), noticed that my father in-law was spending a lot of time with the nutty widow lately. He would talk to her on the phone, and then disappear for hours at a time. They would go out to eat after church. My nephew also listened in on some phone calls between my father in-law and the nutty widow, and drove by the nutty widow's house to confirm that my father in-law was visiting her there.

 

Upon finding out about this relationship (we don't know the specifics of regarding whether it's sexual or not), my brother in-law and my wife freaked right the hell out. My brother in-law has said outright that if my father in-law doesn't knock it off, then he's going to leave the church. While my wife is a bit less emphatic, she still disapproves very strongly, and has let her father know this in no uncertain terms. This has been going on for several months now.

 

This brings the story to this weekend, when my nephew heard my father in-law talking to nutty widow lady, and saying how he's tired of my nephew and my brother in-law acting against him, and that my wife is being a gossip and she's just "carrying the trash around." My nephew lost it. He told my father in-law that he can find a new worship leader, and that he'll be moving out of the house in a week (this is his last semester at college anyway, so the in-county tuition doesn't matter anymore).

 

If my nephew follows through on this, and he is no longer the worship leader, then my brother in-law might take over, but I kind of doubt it, mostly because he has always hated the idea of being a worship leader. There's no way that my other nephew could lead worship (he has the personality of a used nine volt battery), and my brother in-law's wife couldn't do it either. If my nephew follows through on his threat, then the worship team at the church may dissolve completely, since there isn't anyone else besides my two nephews, my brother in-law, and his wife on the worship team. We don't have anyone else waiting in the wings that could do it, either. If the worship team goes away, then there's a good chance the entire church will just collapse in on itself.

 

If my in-laws leave the church, then I don't know how long my wife will want to stay. If she says she's leaving, then I am not going to another church, a point which I have made elsewhere in this thread.

 

So, with all of the stories that my wife has been telling me lately, I've given her a lot of responses of, "Huh," or, "Oh," but I haven't really given any opinions one way or another. I honestly think that my father in-law spending time with nutty widow lady is a stupid mistake, but I also can't agree with his family treating him like a child. Inside, I'm actually happy that this is all happening, because it means that I may have to level with my wife soon about my lack of belief. While I will feel badly about adding my bit of bad news in with all of this turmoil, I also think that this can be a real opportunity for me to finally break free.

[marmot]

Strike while the iron is hot, my friend. You never know when an opportunity like this will come your way again.

 

I did enjoy reading your story. It sounded a little bit like a soap opera. So glad my in-laws live half a country away!

[Denyoz]

This is good news Trapped, you might have to change your username in the near future.

 

Personally I think your father-in-law is old enough to make his own decisions without being harrassed by a grandson. I mean, please, let the old man have a bit of fun before he dies.

[Positivist]

[Fantastic jaw-slacking tale from the Church of Nepotism Assemblies of God]

(Picks jaw up off the floor)

 

Oh my. This is really getting very interesting!! I wish your dear nephew had risked a peeping tom complaint in order to peek in the windows of the NW! My my. It sounds like your F-I-L is losing some judgment. If he is the only viable pastor there, well, it sounds like the show's over.

 

It sounds like the time will be very soon that you will make your contribution to the family drama! Eek!!!!!!

[shadesofgray]

Wow, Trapped! I read through you're whole story and, well, that is a crazy turn of events! I don't know if I have any advice beyond what's already been shared. I guess the best advice I can offer is to not be pushy about your new beliefs. Give your wife (and family) space to deal with it in their own way, be patient, and show them that you're still the same person inside. Good luck! You and your family are in my thoughts!

[Thought2Much]

I wish your dear nephew had risked a peeping tom complaint in order to peek in the windows of the NW! My my.

 

Sorry, Positivist, but I wouldn't wish that upon anyone!

 

It sounds like your F-I-L is losing some judgment. If he is the only viable pastor there, well, it sounds like the show's over.

 

His church is small, with less than 75 members, so we don't even have an assistant pastor. The Assemblies of God actually owns the building, so if my father in-law has to step down, then they will just replace him with some random pastor. If my wife tries to get me to go back to the church, or go to another church, then my answer will be "no." Also, I will let her know in no uncertain terms that no more of our money is going to the church; I will tell her that the only reason I let us give money to the church until now was because some of that money went to support my father in-law.

 

Wow, Trapped! I read through you're whole story and, well, that is a crazy turn of events! I don't know if I have any advice beyond what's already been shared. I guess the best advice I can offer is to not be pushy about your new beliefs.

 

Thanks. I certainly don't plan on being pushy, but if I'm asked to go to another church by my family, then I will not budge. Everyone will want to know why I won't go, and I will tell them the truth, but beyond that I don't plan on forcing anything on them. I'm sure that when that happens, it will be a shitstorm for me.

 

This is good news Trapped, you might have to change your username in the near future.

 

Personally I think your father-in-law is old enough to make his own decisions without being harrassed by a grandson. I mean, please, let the old man have a bit of fun before he dies.

 

I've been thinking about my user name lately, and what it might be if I'm no longer "trapped." We'll see how things go.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I don't know if there's sex involved in this relationship. Nutty widow may be interested in that, but I don't know if my father in-law is. I can't say for certain that there isn't some hanky panky going on, but who knows? I do know that regardless of whether the relationship is sexual or not, it makes my father in-law look bad.