ClaraOlive Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Fallout, I tried to go back in the same way that you did for a number of reasons. The main reason was that I believed that it would be better for me to sacrifice part of my life for my parents - I would be the Christian daughter they wanted, they would never need to know differently, and how hard could it be to keep living a life and a lie that I was already used to faking? I had spent the first 20 years of my life with relatively minor exceptions being bored in church, making Christian friends, dating Christian boys, and going through the motions. While it wasn't how I would choose to live, I made myself believe it wasn't that hard for me most of the time and that it would get easier if I committed to it fully. The secondary reason was that I believed, like you seem to, that I could "make it work". If I wanted to really try Christianity, I had to go "all in", no half measures, nothing but full dedication. This was half because I believed that if there were a god, surely such a show of true devotion couldn't help but get his attention. In some sort of backward logic, I believed that I could make a show of faith in order to receive faith - because I didn't believe. So the other half was because without belief, I needed to rely on the strictest rule of "purity". I didn't have the Holy Spirit to guide me, I couldn't even rely on common sense or conscience since these things told me not to believe, I had to pick a path where there could be no mistakes and stick to it. Although the Christian site from where I got this indubitably has a completely different conclusion that I and others here will take from it, both the prayer and the picture resonate with me. (The site is a bit wrong in that it's not a Puritan prayer, but a scholar's interpretation of what Jonathan Edwards would have told a seeker to pray). Even here, some will say that it's not a true picture of Christianity, yet when one asks and asks and does not receive, if there were a god, how could a prayer be other than this? http://gospelcentric.org/2010/11/22/old-school-seekers-prayer/ But here I am, an ex-Christian with no thoughts of going back. There's probably nothing I can say to you to make you understand what a terrible idea it is, going all in as a last attempt to make Christianity "work" when you don't believe. It was four years of depression, trichotillomania (which I'd never had before) and close to a nervous breakdown, an unhappy marriage to a fundamentalist, and an inability to respect myself. And when you know you're being dishonest with yourself and everyone around you, why should you respect yourself? There's no true happiness in living a lie as some kind of twisted demonstration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 All i wanted was my life and i can't even have that, i was born into slavery...it's not fair.....What's the point of living if you're just here to be god's workhorse, just his stepping stool, to spread his poisonous words. to spread his "love" or else live your life in perpetual fear of your coming judgement or at the least wondering if you're wrong. If I could do it for you, I'd help you understand that what you say in the above quote is some of the soundest reasoning that one can employ to come to the logical conclusion that the god of the bible does not exist. But you take this reasoning and turn it on its head. Rather than conclude that the god described in the bible has so many conflicting attributes which renders either one, the other, or both logically impossible and therefore that god does not exist, you focus on the negative attributes and feel forced to live your life as a slave. You have enslaved yourself. The non-existent god described in the bible has nothing to do with it. You are submitting to the lowest level of existence in the vain hope that by doing so this non-existent god will show you some kind of mercy. That "god" has no mercy because he is not. You must show mercy to yourself, turn your thinking around, and accept the fact that your fears and your perception of slavery are of your own making. And if they are of your own making, then you are capable of unmaking them. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Sounds like a bad relationship I was in when I was younger. You want to leave the relationship because it's hell, but at the same time you're emotionally dependent on her and don't want to be alone. The only thing you can do in that situation is break it off, and FORCE yourself to not call again. Going back is bad for you and also wrong to do to her. Maybe God has moved on without you, maybe he won't take you back even if you begged him? Maybe bible God realizes that you two aren't compatible and has found someone else to be in a dysfunctional relationship with? Maybe the best thing is to find a different group of people to be around. Maybe it won't give you the thrills and excitement of the dysfunctional relationship that fundamentalism gave you before, but it'll be a lot healthier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 That they have to spend their lives being who they aren't in order to avoid eternal torture, even if it makes them miserable. What Bible are you reading? Where do you get these warped views of Christianity? His views of christianity fit pretty well with what I was taught as a kid in the Wesleyan Church. What denomination were you raised in, Fallout? BTW- you clearly don't believe in BibleGod and the like. And you can't MAKE yourself believe. So I really don't understand what you think you're gonna accomplish here. Pentecostal. The craziest fucking branch of christianity that exists on the face of the planet. Even the more liberal one i attended later (same one different people) that accepted some "worldly" things didn't accept evolution, or sex outside of marriage, or my sarcastic nature. As well as frowning upon inquisitive questions about this or that in the bible. I don't know if i don't believe, part of me thinks it might be true, even though it's the most horrible scenario for god i've ever heard of....So it would just be a cruel existence of slavery to god Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 That they have to spend their lives being who they aren't in order to avoid eternal torture, even if it makes them miserable. What Bible are you reading? Where do you get these warped views of Christianity? King james, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."-Luke 14:26 (as well as honor your father and your mother, paradoxically) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 All i wanted was my life and i can't even have that, i was born into slavery...it's not fair.....What's the point of living if you're just here to be god's workhorse, just his stepping stool, to spread his poisonous words. to spread his "love" or else live your life in perpetual fear of your coming judgement or at the least wondering if you're wrong. If I could do it for you, I'd help you understand that what you say in the above quote is some of the soundest reasoning that one can employ to come to the logical conclusion that the god of the bible does not exist. But you take this reasoning and turn it on its head. Rather than conclude that the god described in the bible has so many conflicting attributes which renders either one, the other, or both logically impossible and therefore that god does not exist, you focus on the negative attributes and feel forced to live your life as a slave. You have enslaved yourself. The non-existent god described in the bible has nothing to do with it. You are submitting to the lowest level of existence in the vain hope that by doing so this non-existent god will show you some kind of mercy. That "god" has no mercy because he is not. You must show mercy to yourself, turn your thinking around, and accept the fact that your fears and your perception of slavery are of your own making. And if they are of your own making, then you are capable of unmaking them. I guess to me it doesn't mean this god can't exist, it just means he's a bastard.Kind of like how your parents were strict when you were a kid, and they tell you they do it because they love you. They're doing this because they know better. Like how they can punish you, and yet say they still love you. Threaten you with taking away freedom (grounding you) even though they're doing it to teach you what's right and wrong. It sounds like a human parent, but that doesn't mean it's not true, i guess is where my fears stem from. I guess i don't see them as paradoxical, maybe conflicting, like a human, but not to the point where it would say without a doubt he doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 say without a doubt he doesn't exist. You have stated the core of your problem. You expect 100% certainty that he does not exist before you can free your mind, but you allow yourself to be enslaved without being able to say "without a doubt" he does exist. So, for freedom you must have 100% certainty, but for enslavement, you accept less. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyString Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I guess to me it doesn't mean this god can't exist, it just means he's a bastard.Kind of like how your parents were strict when you were a kid, and they tell you they do it because they love you. They're doing this because they know better. Like how they can punish you, and yet say they still love you. Threaten you with taking away freedom (grounding you) even though they're doing it to teach you what's right and wrong. It sounds like a human parent, but that doesn't mean it's not true, i guess is where my fears stem from. I guess i don't see them as paradoxical, maybe conflicting, like a human, but not to the point where it would say without a doubt he doesn't exist. So why would you worship this 'bastard'? How can you be devoted to a religion and a god that you hate? This bastard threatens you with eternal torment if you don't believe he exists and love him back, but gives you no real reason to believe that he does exist. Do you really think this is a god who deserves to be worshiped? Are you just afraid that since you can't say he doesn't exist with 100% certainty that you'll try to be a Christian 'just in case'? I am a parent, and though I do discipline my child when she behaves badly, I would never cause her pain or allow her to be tortured for even a millisecond much less for all eternity. I know what unconditional, real love is and all this Christianity love crap doesn't even come close to that. This is where I draw the line. You have to stand for something or you will fall for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 You have stated the core of your problem. You expect 100% certainty that he does not exist before you can free your mind, but you allow yourself to be enslaved without being able to say "without a doubt" he does exist. So, for freedom you must have 100% certainty, but for enslavement, you accept less. I guess i don't exactly see how they're equal....What i mean is, there's nothing to fear if he doesn't exist, but an eternity of torture if he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 So why would you worship this 'bastard'? How can you be devoted to a religion and a god that you hate? This bastard threatens you with eternal torment if you don't believe he exists and love him back, but gives you no real reason to believe that he does exist. Do you really think this is a god who deserves to be worshiped? Are you just afraid that since you can't say he doesn't exist with 100% certainty that you'll try to be a Christian 'just in case'? I am a parent, and though I do discipline my child when she behaves badly, I would never cause her pain or allow her to be tortured for even a millisecond much less for all eternity. I know what unconditional, real love is and all this Christianity love crap doesn't even come close to that. This is where I draw the line. You have to stand for something or you will fall for anything. No i don't think he deserves it if he does, but i'm a coward, and even if he doesn't exist i would spend my life worrying if he did, like i am everyday now. I am just afraid, and was considering at least partially to go back 'just in case'. Because of not being sure, mostly because of that story spurring my fears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I think you know at your core there is nothing to go back to. What is it exactly that you think you require the kind of punishment for that makes you have to live your whole life being something you aren't? Once I worked out that my commitment to christianity was ENTIRELY emotional, it wasn't hard to let it go. Looking at the whole thing rationally, it is ridiculous. None of it makes any sense. You can be a good person without having anything to do with christianity if that is what is important to you. You need to fight the fear mate. Once you conquer that, your life will be yours again. When you say your commitment was emotional, do you mean emotional as in fear, or emotional as in wanting to please others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 9, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2011 I typed out a reply but decided it would be useless, as are all the other excellent replies. I'm sorry you're torturing yourself like this and realize you would stop if you could. You will apparently need to get lots of professional help to overcome the problem because logic and facts are making no impact. Truly, I wish you well. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted September 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2011 I typed out a reply but decided it would be useless, as are all the other excellent replies. I'm sorry you're torturing yourself like this and realize you would stop if you could. You will apparently need to get lots of professional help to overcome the problem because logic and facts are making no impact. Truly, I wish you well. Dude, I say this softly. Very soft and loving. You know you are my friend. But I have to agree with florduh. I am not being mean - I really care for you and all the others do to. I have spent hours of research to try and help you.(and I didn't mind doing it, cause I wanted to help you so much) Sometimes I even wonder if you really read the information that I looked up for you in the last 5 months. I just spent another hour trying to find the 'right' article to post here for you, on the fear of hell - but I don't think it will help. I don't know how to help you and I wanted to so much. I really did. I even told you a long time ago to go back for awhile and see what happens. I think you need to go back. Go back and be an 'observer' like I did - it may help. I told you, I had to go back at least 6 times before I could begin to deconvert. I had to listen to the sermons, drink the blood, eat the flesh, be told one minute I was full of the spirit and the next - they put me down. It was all part of my deconversion and I believe that you may have to go through the same type of process as I. One way or another - It is time for you to make up your mind. With every ounce of love in my heart - I wish you the very best, my dear little friend. Sincerely, Margee 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I typed out a reply but decided it would be useless, as are all the other excellent replies. I'm sorry you're torturing yourself like this and realize you would stop if you could. You will apparently need to get lots of professional help to overcome the problem because logic and facts are making no impact. Truly, I wish you well. Dude, I say this softly. Very soft and loving. You know you are my friend. But I have to agree with florduh. I am not being mean - I really care for you and all the others do to. I have spent hours of research to try and help you.(and I didn't mind doing it, cause I wanted to help you so much) Sometimes I even wonder if you really read the information that I looked up for you in the last 5 months. I just spent another hour trying to find the 'right' article to post here for you, on the fear of hell - but I don't think it will help. I don't know how to help you and I wanted to so much. I really did. I even told you a long time ago to go back for awhile and see what happens. I think you need to go back. Go back and be an 'observer' like I did - it may help. I told you, I had to go back at least 6 times before I could begin to deconvert. I had to listen to the sermons, drink the blood, eat the flesh, be told one minute I was full of the spirit and the next - they put me down. It was all part of my deconversion and I believe that you may have to go through the same type of process as I. One way or another - It is time for you to make up your mind. With every ounce of love in my heart - I wish you the very best, my dear little friend. Sincerely, Margee I do read it Margee, i always have. People tell me going back won't help, people tell me it will. The only thing is i'm already fully out of it, if i went back in i'd have to change my whole life again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 You have stated the core of your problem. You expect 100% certainty that he does not exist before you can free your mind, but you allow yourself to be enslaved without being able to say "without a doubt" he does exist. So, for freedom you must have 100% certainty, but for enslavement, you accept less. I guess i don't exactly see how they're equal....What i mean is, there's nothing to fear if he doesn't exist, but an eternity of torture if he does. Maybe you should try converting to a different bat-shit crazy fundamentalist religion. The reason I say that is because people go from one crazy relationship to another, they don't feel comfortable unless they're in some kind of dysfunctional relationship or movement. It sounds like you've worn this one out and need another one. Either that or get professional help and live a healthy life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 Well i guess it just doesn't matter, i can't afford help (even though i've already been through help and they said they couldn't help me) I'm basically screwed.for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted September 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2011 I typed out a reply but decided it would be useless, as are all the other excellent replies. I'm sorry you're torturing yourself like this and realize you would stop if you could. You will apparently need to get lots of professional help to overcome the problem because logic and facts are making no impact. Truly, I wish you well. Dude, I say this softly. Very soft and loving. You know you are my friend. But I have to agree with florduh. I am not being mean - I really care for you and all the others do to. I have spent hours of research to try and help you.(and I didn't mind doing it, cause I wanted to help you so much) Sometimes I even wonder if you really read the information that I looked up for you in the last 5 months. I just spent another hour trying to find the 'right' article to post here for you, on the fear of hell - but I don't think it will help. I don't know how to help you and I wanted to so much. I really did. I even told you a long time ago to go back for awhile and see what happens. I think you need to go back. Go back and be an 'observer' like I did - it may help. I told you, I had to go back at least 6 times before I could begin to deconvert. I had to listen to the sermons, drink the blood, eat the flesh, be told one minute I was full of the spirit and the next - they put me down. It was all part of my deconversion and I believe that you may have to go through the same type of process as I. One way or another - It is time for you to make up your mind. With every ounce of love in my heart - I wish you the very best, my dear little friend. Sincerely, Margee I do read it Margee, i always have. People tell me going back won't help, people tell me it will. The only thing is i'm already fully out of it, if i went back in i'd have to change my whole life again See what I mean buddy? You keep posting over and over that you must go back, and then you say - I can't because it will change your whole life. That's what you want , isn't it?? You are not totally happy in the 'secular' world without the christian god. If you feel like going back for a while - go back!! Do what your heart tells you to do. Follow your own instincts. What in the hell do you have to lose at this point - you've got yourself nearly crazy! I am never mad at you - I care! I care! I care!! This unknown person, Margee on EX-c cares for you!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Well i guess it just doesn't matter, i can't afford help (even though i've already been through help and they said they couldn't help me) I'm basically screwed.for life. Well then, I guess you really are fucked. Seriously, if you want help bad enough you can get it. It sounds like you don't really believe it'll help. I have a Christian friend with serious mental problems who can't get professional help because in his mind the only thing that can help him is god, and nothing will change his mind. As a result his life is wasted, he lives on the streets and has pretty much no hope of ever getting better. He'll actually going to die soon. All because of this fundamentalist mistrust of 'secular' therapy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I do read it Margee, i always have. People tell me going back won't help, people tell me it will. The only thing is i'm already fully out of it, if i went back in i'd have to change my whole life again See what I mean buddy? You keep posting over and over that you must go back, and then you say - I can't because it will change your whole life. That's what you want , isn't it?? You are not totally happy in the 'secular' world without the christian god. If you feel like going back for a while - go back!! Do what your heart tells you to do. Follow your own instincts. What in the hell do you have to lose at this point - you've got yourself nearly crazy! I am never mad at you - I care! I care! I care!! This unknown person, Margee on EX-c cares for you!!!!!!!! No what i want is to live in the secular world, but be able to move on, i hate the god of the bible and christian. I don't want to go back, but i don't see what else to do. I can't afford therapy, i have to get assistance to just go to school. I can't get professional help, so i'm basically fucked, my life is over before it began My instincts tell me i want sex, but i can't get that. I can't get therapy because our system is so fucked up that we pay for our military before our own health Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I can't get professional help, Yes you can. You're not looking hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I can't get professional help, Yes you can. You're not looking hard enough. Yes i have, i looked it up, they're all like over 100 dollars a session. Or else you need insurance, i can't get or afford. I don't qualify for the state insurance. So i'm fucked. It's not a mistrust. i went to a secular therapist for a few years, she couldn't help me with this. I don't believe god can help me either. So i just sit here crying, wanting help but not being able to get it but don't tell me i'm not looking hard enough, cuz that's BS. You don't know what i've tried. I tried applying for state disability so i could get a counselor (which i hated) but i was rejected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 9, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2011 Well i guess it just doesn't matter, i can't afford help (even though i've already been through help and they said they couldn't help me) I'm basically screwed.for life. You need a second professional opinion. If necessary, go to a free clinic, mental hospital or emergency room and lie on the floor and scream/cry as loudly as you can. Sob that you can't go on living like this. I don't know why the doctor you did see said there was nothing wrong; obviously, there is. If you still had excruciating physical pain six months after a doctor made a misdiagnosis, you'd go to another doctor. This is even worse than debilitating physical pain. Really, YOU must actually DO something and take steps that lead to getting the help you need, and that help is beyond the scope of any website - even this one. Coming here and announcing that you're "screwed for life" isn't a useful thing to do. Do something that helps you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 What about therapists in training? They charge $20 or $30 a session, sometimes free. They have to have a licensed therapist there with them. You've got to try harder, it's your life that's in the balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Fallout, I don't understand why you believe that going back and playing by their ridiculous rules is your ONLY option. If you're genuinely unsure- why can't you go back and investigate... take your time and make up you mind about what's true and what isn't? Why do you need to immediately jump in and start playing the part? Hell, if you're THAT unsure- there's plenty of info readily available. Lots of people here could give you suggestions and recommended reading. Personally I'd suggest that you read up on the history of the church, how doctrines have changed over time, and how the bible came to be in its current form. A little time on google and at the library can give you a pretty good background. And if you haven't investigated these points for yourself, then I guarantee that you're gonna find some surprises. I did. And if you really feel like you need to hear christians make their case- go to church and see if you find them convincing. Or is this not about curiosity at all? Just fear? One point that others have made- that I'm gonna make again is this: You CAN NOT live a perfect christian life according to the bible. No matter which denomination you join, no matter what you believe and how you act- a biblical case can be made (and WILL BE made by some) that you are wrong. That's because there is no single, clear, 'right' way to follow the voluminous, vague, antiquated, and even contradictory instructions in the bible. You can't do it- I don't care how hard you try. Now some people THINK that they're living a perfect biblical life- and that's because they're either dense or lying to themselves. If you look at it honestly and TRY to understand it... you're gonna have to admit that it's unclear AT BEST. And exactly why would the religious nuts that you grew up among have the One True and Correct answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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