Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 Fallout, I don't understand why you believe that going back and playing by their ridiculous rules is your ONLY option. If you're genuinely unsure- why can't you go back and investigate... take your time and make up you mind about what's true and what isn't? Why do you need to immediately jump in and start playing the part? Hell, if you're THAT unsure- there's plenty of info readily available. Lots of people here could give you suggestions and recommended reading. Personally I'd suggest that you read up on the history of the church, how doctrines have changed over time, and how the bible came to be in its current form. A little time on google and at the library can give you a pretty good background. And if you haven't investigated these points for yourself, then I guarantee that you're gonna find some surprises. I did. And if you really feel like you need to hear christians make their case- go to church and see if you find them convincing. Or is this not about curiosity at all? Just fear? One point that others have made- that I'm gonna make again is this: You CAN NOT live a perfect christian life according to the bible. No matter which denomination you join, no matter what you believe and how you act- a biblical case can be made (and WILL BE made by some) that you are wrong. That's because there is no single, clear, 'right' way to follow the voluminous, vague, antiquated, and even contradictory instructions in the bible. You can't do it- I don't care how hard you try. Now some people THINK that they're living a perfect biblical life- and that's because they're either dense or lying to themselves. If you look at it honestly and TRY to understand it... you're gonna have to admit that it's unclear AT BEST. And exactly why would the religious nuts that you grew up among have the One True and Correct answer? I already have learned about the history of the church, hell one full quarter was basically all about the rise of the church and the split of it under martin luther and the protestant reformation. I have a book about how the bible was altered by scribes. It's not that i feel like i need them to make their case, i've been listening to their case for 19 years. It doesn't make any sense, they just say you can't understand god when they get stuck, or as my aunt says "it's like the pot asking the potter why did you make me this way?" or something to that effect, i assume it's a bible verse of some kind. I've never heard it though This is mostly about fear, if not all about fear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 What about therapists in training? They charge $20 or $30 a session, sometimes free. They have to have a licensed therapist there with them. You've got to try harder, it's your life that's in the balance. but wouldn't these therapist just fuck me up worse than a trained one? I mean if they're in training they have no idea how to deal with people yet, they might freak out on me because of my weird thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I don't know if this will help you out or not, but I'll tell you the story of my last fling with christianity and the reasoning I used when I dropped it. Because your predicament now really reminds me of that time. I was a teenager at the time... so I'm not going to claim that this all makes sense. But this is what ran through my head: This was in the summer of 1990. The Iraq war had just started or was just getting started, and my mom told me that this was the beginning of Armageddon. Now I been "saved" off and on as a kid and took it fairly seriously- but this Armageddon business scared the shit outta me and I felt that I'd better get serious. First I started reading the bible. And seeings how Armageddon was what I was worried about, I started with Revelations. I don't know how much you've read in Revelations, but it's like a bad acid trip... not the kind of shit that a depressed and scared teenager needs to be reading. To make matters worse, at one point I decided to just open the bible randomly and start reading. I ended up in Ezekiel- which is really a lot like Revelations, but less trippy and more brutal (you know- passages about how god will make parents eat their children and the like). So after a few days of reading the bible for several hours a day- I was scared shitless. I repented my sins, prayed to be saved, and promised god that I'd do my best to follow him and do what's right. But I didn't really 'feel' saved, and wasn't sure that I believed entirely or properly. I tried several times to be saved- I was scared that it might be true... but I wasn't really sure that I believed that it was true. I prayed for for god to give me a sign, to help me believe, to help me do what's right, etc. At one point I came to my dad in tears and asked him what could I do when I want to believe- tried to believe- but just wasn't sure if I did, and wasn't sure if I was saved. He said "well, that's where faith comes in". Then he went on to tell me that you can only do your best, and just have faith that it's true. That didn't really satisfy me, but I decided to try my best and just rely on faith even if I wasn't sure or didn't really know that this christianity thing was true. I quit cussing. I quit watching anything on teevee that was even remotely questionable (this wasn't difficult as we didn't even have cable teevee back then). I quit jacking off. I started paying attention in church and hanging on every word. At one point my sunday school teacher told us that when we confess our sins, we not only have to confess to god- but also to anybody that we'd sinned against. Well that sucked, but I tried to do it. Now at that age, I really hadn't done a whole lot of sinning- but I had a few 'sins' in mind. I'd told some white lies (REALLY minor stuff) on occasion. I had stole some quarters out of my parents' change jar. I think I'd stolen something from my brother- like a pocket knife or something (can't remember now... it's been a while). Anyhow, I tracked these people down and confessed my sins- anything that I could remember that I'd dong 'against' somebody. It was embarrassing, but they were all nice about it. And this is how late summer of 1990 was ruined for me. And then school started- that's what broke me. I don't remember exactly what the problem was. It was probably a combination of things. I had renounced cussing, or hanging around anybody who wasn't christian enough to suit me. And lying. And looking lustfully at girls (remember- I was in my early teens... hormones were raging). Basically I was avoiding anything even remotely fun, and had renounced damn near every social skill that a teenage boy needs to get through the day. I remember that I made it a week in school as a christian. Towards the end of the day on friday, I remember sitting in English class crying and shaking- having a genuine crisis of faith. I had set myself up for failure- I simply wasn't capable of living up to the standards that I'd set for myself (or that were set for me, and that I took seriously). And on top of that, I knew damn well that I didn't really BELIEVE that god existed and all that... really it would have been more accurate to say that I was afraid that he might exist. And I knew that it didn't really matter how I ACTED- IF god was real, then he could read my thoughts and he'd know damn well that I didn't believe and wasn't really saved. And I couldn't MAKE myself believe. So I concluded that whether or not god existed- I couldn't be saved. There was no point in going through the motions and trying to fool myself- I couldn't fool god (if he existed). So really I just kinda gave up. But over the next year or so, I came to realize (or maybe I admitted to myself) that I really didn't believe- and I saw no reason to believe. It didn't make sense; I couldn't see ANY tangible proof. Now I wouldn't have called myself an atheist until my early 20's- mainly I wasn't comfortable with the label. But I really do consider the first Friday of school in 1990 to be my last day as a christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatBallou Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I understand, falloutdude. I'm just a little bit past you on this road. I came to a point of absolutely loathing god. So I decided I'd rather spend eternity in hell than with god & his twisted minions. And I walked away. Now there are options for which I won't know the truth of in this lifetime: Either I die and there will be no consciousness or I will go to hell. Either way, god is a real fuck-up (excuse my French). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 What about therapists in training? They charge $20 or $30 a session, sometimes free. They have to have a licensed therapist there with them. You've got to try harder, it's your life that's in the balance. but wouldn't these therapist just fuck me up worse than a trained one? I mean if they're in training they have no idea how to deal with people yet, they might freak out on me because of my weird thoughts They've had lots of education which counts for something. And you probably won't be their first client because the internship is pretty long I believe. If you're desperate enough you'll try anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScifiChick Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I think florduh had the right idea. if you act crazy enough, they will stick you in the hospital. Full stop. And then you will get some help. If you can contemplate spending the rest of your entire life acting like a Christian, surely you can spend an hour in an emergency room flipping out? Read up on this and see if you relate the symptoms at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I think florduh had the right idea. if you act crazy enough, they will stick you in the hospital. Full stop. And then you will get some help. If you can contemplate spending the rest of your entire life acting like a Christian, surely you can spend an hour in an emergency room flipping out? Read up on this and see if you relate the symptoms at all. Sounds like the right idea. Sometimes you have to stand out to get some attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 You have stated the core of your problem. You expect 100% certainty that he does not exist before you can free your mind, but you allow yourself to be enslaved without being able to say "without a doubt" he does exist. So, for freedom you must have 100% certainty, but for enslavement, you accept less. I guess i don't exactly see how they're equal....What i mean is, there's nothing to fear if he doesn't exist, but an eternity of torture if he does. Of course, it's your choice to make. But you are so wrong when you say "...there's nothing to fear if he doesn't exist...." If he does not exist and you spend your whole life in fear that he will throw you in hell unless you live the way you described in the OP, then you will have lost something of immeasureable worth. You will have lived your one life, the only one you will ever have, in a self-imposed prison. You will have wasted your life and that is a terrible tragedy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 say without a doubt he doesn't exist. You have stated the core of your problem. You expect 100% certainty that he does not exist before you can free your mind, but you allow yourself to be enslaved without being able to say "without a doubt" he does exist. So, for freedom you must have 100% certainty, but for enslavement, you accept less. And it appears he is using the bible alone in an attempt to find this certainty. Fallout, while many lost their faith by recognizing the inconsistencies in the bible, others, like myself, lost it by studying science, philosophy, history, psychology etc... Rather than allow yourself to be enslaved in your own mind, which in my world is just another way to say "choose to remain ignorant" you have a choice to educate yourself about the world. Like most who travel that route, you will no doubt find your god shrinking each day as you fill your head with valid, verifiable knowledge. At some point, he will just no longer exist for you and you will be able to explain to yourself and others precisely why. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 say without a doubt he doesn't exist. You have stated the core of your problem. You expect 100% certainty that he does not exist before you can free your mind, but you allow yourself to be enslaved without being able to say "without a doubt" he does exist. So, for freedom you must have 100% certainty, but for enslavement, you accept less. Rather than allow yourself to be enslaved in your own mind, which in my world is just another way to say "choose to remain ignorant" you have a choice to educate yourself about the world. Like most who travel that route, you will no doubt find your god shrinking each day as you fill your head with valid, verifiable knowledge. At some point, he will just no longer exist for you and you will be able to explain to yourself and others precisely why. I have studied psychology, evolution (mostly the evolution of man/biological anthropology), some astronomy (not much), the entire history of the western world (at least the events which shaped it along with the people, and nationalities) starting from the sumerian era of The Epic of Giglamesh. Up until world war 2 (there were 3 quarter long classes, which i loved learning about) Along with reading a few ancient books, as well as a Roman novel/book about the mystery cult of Isis (The Golden Ass), as well as literature which arose in the middle ages (Dante's Inferno of the divine comedy, and others). I also studied cultural anthropology. I loved them all, i used to love learning. Now however i'm just scared of them, scared i won't be interested anymore, and scared that i won't be able to relax. So i don't do it. I used to do it because i was interested in it, in all of it. If i'm not interested/too anxious to retain information, it won't have much of an impact. In fact i didn't start studying anything to do with the bible until about 4-6 months ago (by then i was a nonbeliever/agnostic daoist for about 6-8 months I used to LOVE learning, absolutely love it, College courses were my favorite part of my life at the time, but ever since i've become scared to learn. Scared to do what i used to like. Scared i would never get better, and scared i wouldn't be able to enjoy those things again, along with anything that might be construed as non-christian (sex, music, games, good/close friends and what i do with them,and did i say, SEX?) So i can't fucking relax doing anything except maybe sleeping... I'm just trying to that life back, when i was happy learning, felt free, and the best i ever have. Feeling excited to live life instead of scared of doing things wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 I think florduh had the right idea. if you act crazy enough, they will stick you in the hospital. Full stop. And then you will get some help. If you can contemplate spending the rest of your entire life acting like a Christian, surely you can spend an hour in an emergency room flipping out? Read up on this and see if you relate the symptoms at all. I guess i just don't want to be put in the mental ward...i'm not that bad, and i don't think i could handle being put in a place like that, much less the affect it would have on my relationships and job opportunities in the future. I guess i could call a crisis line, but either way i'd end up having to pay for any treatment i had. I don't have it in me to act crazy though, i'm too shy....i already have trouble speaking in public too loudly. Except for depression not really, sometimes irritable but all that comes from my anxiety and fear, which drains me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 I don't remember exactly what the problem was. It was probably a combination of things. I had renounced cussing, or hanging around anybody who wasn't christian enough to suit me. And lying. And looking lustfully at girls (remember- I was in my early teens... hormones were raging). Basically I was avoiding anything even remotely fun, and had renounced damn near every social skill that a teenage boy needs to get through the day. I remember that I made it a week in school as a christian. Towards the end of the day on friday, I remember sitting in English class crying and shaking- having a genuine crisis of faith. I had set myself up for failure- I simply wasn't capable of living up to the standards that I'd set for myself (or that were set for me, and that I took seriously). And on top of that, I knew damn well that I didn't really BELIEVE that god existed and all that... really it would have been more accurate to say that I was afraid that he might exist. And I knew that it didn't really matter how I ACTED- IF god was real, then he could read my thoughts and he'd know damn well that I didn't believe and wasn't really saved. And I couldn't MAKE myself believe. So I concluded that whether or not god existed- I couldn't be saved. There was no point in going through the motions and trying to fool myself- I couldn't fool god (if he existed). But you can't be afraid of something you don't believe in can you? Is there a difference between fearing something and believing it? Are they tied together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Scared to do what i used to like. So once again, we get back to the issue that you are likely dealing with an emotional disorder that requires professional help. You say you can't afford it, yet your solution is to dive right back into the source of your original fears. This is like climbing out of a cauldron of boiling oil, claiming you can't afford to wash the residual oil off, and then claiming the only available solution is to jump back into the cauldron. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 It's sounds to me your bored, and also need to get laid. Young people suffer too much imo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJCXpFy0E5s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ireckinso Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 First of all you do require some type of professional therapy, and some good medication. I used to go through spells of feeling worthless, I wasn’t good enough, that type of crap. That’s what it was crap. I think what the main issue was, I had to be the best at everything and had to make everyone happy and like me. When I was a teen I was on high honor roll, varsity lettered in football and baseball all four years, was involved in biology club and was part of a Christian teen program. If I did poorly at any of these things I would punish myself and feel worthless. If someone got angry with me I would say sorry over and over to the point of just being pathetic. It took me a long time to fix my issues, mainly because I could never tell anyone. I had to look like the perfect teen. (or felt I did). Back then there was no internet, (would have been helpful). I started to realize that making ME happy first was the most important thing. You are only going to get one life and living it in misery sucks. Let me tell you, once I started doing the things that made me happy, everything else started to fall in place. Yes it was a rough road, I still had depressed moments, and a lot had to do with my ex-wife. But you really have to give up the idea of sin. What the hell is sin? Something some one made up. Why is it a sin to live with someone you love with out having a document saying you are married? It’s all a bunch of made up-by-man bull! I understand you have these things stuck in your head, which is why you need professional help. You need to be in control of your own life and not let a religion control you. By the way you are talking you think you need to become a monk. I can’t understand why someone would want to live that way on something that you clearly say you don’t believe. I truly feel for you and hope you seek help, at your age you should be enjoying life. I would do anything to go back and live mine the way I am now. Don’t give up Fallout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 It's sounds to me your bored, and also need to get laid. Young people suffer too much imo. Yeah well i'm not gonna get laid in my current state....i'd need to get better before i could. Being neurotic over religion isn't the greatest turn on...ha ha Don't know if you're being sarcastic, the only way i'm suffering is wanting to get it on really bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'm really am sorry to hear that you're going through this but with what you are going through, I find it hard to believe anyone here will be able to reason with you logically to get you through it. You need to speak with some professionals, if they say it's a phase or some bullshit like that, fuck 'em, go to someone else until you'll find someone that'll help you. Your fears will not be gone by going through the motions because the entire time you'll be critiquing how sincere your beliefs are and how genuine you are at doing them. It's a vicious cycle. If you don't have the money, get a job if you don't have one. If you have one, do something drastic to get the help you need. It's much better to take a slight detour in life to get you back up and running again than for you to spend the rest of it in a miserable state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 It's sounds to me your bored, and also need to get laid. Young people suffer too much imo. Yeah well i'm not gonna get laid in my current state....i'd need to get better before i could. Being neurotic over religion isn't the greatest turn on...ha ha Don't know if you're being sarcastic, the only way i'm suffering is wanting to get it on really bad Not being sarcastic. I wonder why young people have so many mental problems, and I think it's because of our society. I think if you try to cage an animal, yet continuously tease it with hopes of freedom, it'll slowly lose it's mind. Yes, getting a cute girlfriend and being in love is the shit. Definitely a strong incentive to do whatever it takes to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroads Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Falloutdude, I registered just to reply to you, so feel special I can relate to where you are, I felt the same way a few years ago. Here is something that shed some light on the situation for me. It may or may not help you. How many world religions are there/have there been? How many adherents do they have? How many of them claim to be the only path to truth and threaten that anyone who strays will suffer eternally for doing so? Almost ALL of them make the same claim - they alone are right, they alone hold the keys to eternal life, and if one doesn't do what they say and believe what they tell them to, they will go to some version of hell. Even if you return to Christianity, you are still screwed, according to religious madness. According to one religion or another, you're headed for hell. The only reason the Christian hell has such a hold on you is simple - the place and time in which you were born. Not trying to psychoanalyze you, but I think you have serious anxiety issues and the religion/heaven/hell issue is simply serving as a sort of outlet for them. And yes, addressing them might be a challenge, but until you find a way to do so, you can at least recognize that it is these fear issues that are at the core of your problem - not hell or a bully asshole fairytale god (that is, IMHO, just how your fear and anxiety are manifesting themselves). I absolutely disagree that anyone who wants help can get it. This country is shameful when it comes to healthcare of any kind, let alone for mental health issues. However - some things to try if you can't get medical care...omega 3's, meditation, support groups. I'm sorry that you are going through this. If you need to talk, feel free to message me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroads Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Also, try looking for county mental health centers. Not sure where you're located, but some counties do provide treatment/medications on sliding scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 Falloutdude, I registered just to reply to you, so feel special I can relate to where you are, I felt the same way a few years ago. Here is something that shed some light on the situation for me. It may or may not help you. How many world religions are there/have there been? How many adherents do they have? How many of them claim to be the only path to truth and threaten that anyone who strays will suffer eternally for doing so? Almost ALL of them make the same claim - they alone are right, they alone hold the keys to eternal life, and if one doesn't do what they say and believe what they tell them to, they will go to some version of hell. Even if you return to Christianity, you are still screwed, according to religious madness. According to one religion or another, you're headed for hell. The only reason the Christian hell has such a hold on you is simple - the place and time in which you were born. Not trying to psychoanalyze you, but I think you have serious anxiety issues and the religion/heaven/hell issue is simply serving as a sort of outlet for them. And yes, addressing them might be a challenge, but until you find a way to do so, you can at least recognize that it is these fear issues that are at the core of your problem - not hell or a bully asshole fairytale god (that is, IMHO, just how your fear and anxiety are manifesting themselves). I absolutely disagree that anyone who wants help can get it. This country is shameful when it comes to healthcare of any kind, let alone for mental health issues. However - some things to try if you can't get medical care...omega 3's, meditation, support groups. I'm sorry that you are going through this. If you need to talk, feel free to message me. Thank you for taking the time to do that for me, i am thankful.. I understand what you're saying, in that the only reason this particular threat has a hold on me is because i happened to be born in a particular place and time. However even with this objective view of it, it doesn't seem to sway my fears. I get caught up on things, like experiences i can't seem to rationalize through a naturalist perspective. You're probably correct about me having other anxiety issues, however these kinds of fears are more resistant to rational "self talk" so they aren't as easy to manage as my other ones. They are based on things i can't really ever know/touch myself (stories of an ex-christian's experience as a christian) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Proverbs 26:11 Sorry. Couldn't help it. It's Biblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 mocked once again, i mine as well just kill myself. Yes i'm a pussy, yes i'm that sensitive, and yes i'm fucked up. I just want someone to blow my brains out so i don't have to do it to my family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroads Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 You won't feel like this forever. I've dealt with anxiety issues, I've dealt with the fear of hell, and the worries over the absence of an afterlife....I know you feel like it will always be like this, but it won't. Sometimes therapy makes the difference, sometimes just a little tinkering with brain chemistry (you said you have a prescription, right? You should give it a real try and see what happens), sometimes just growth and new experiences. But things will not always be this bad. You are in such a bad place right now that you can't see anything clearly (at least, that is my impression). So, the experiences you speak of, that you can't find a natural explanation for - were they good or bad experiences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 mocked once again, i mine as well just kill myself. Yes i'm a pussy, yes i'm that sensitive, and yes i'm fucked up. I just want someone to blow my brains out so i don't have to do it to my family Good. Let it all out! Get angry. Take control. Be more assertive and grow up to the responsibility of your own life! It's better for you to get angry and do something about your life instead of asking everyone "if, what, maybe, perhaps..." You're not going to get better unless you get your own life by the balls and take control over it. Until now you only ask for permission by other people to not make the hard decision. The decision you have to make is: What the fuck is it that you want with life and what should YOU do about it, not what other people think you should do. You own your life. It's not owned by a message board online. If you keep on asking people to go back to the things you hate, it's the same as going back to your own vomit and sniffing it. I've seen dogs do that. It's disgusting. And if you hate Christianity, don't ask people if it's okay to go back to it. The answer is simply: NO IT'S NOT OKAY TO GO BACK TO IT. BUT! It is your decision, not ours. Not mine. Not grandpa. Not Santa Claus. No, the person deciding is... YOU! Cool concept, right? You decide over you. You have iterated and asked for permission to go back, but not, but yes, but no, but yes, but no, but yes, but no... Instead, do it. Go back. And see if it's what you want or not. We can't fix you. Internet can't fix you. Chtulhu can't fix you. Only you can do something about yourself. It's the tough lesson of life that you have to make the tough decisions about your own life. It's part of growing up. If you think that is the same as mocking, you will have a hard time getting anywhere, with anything, regardless of religion or lack thereof. And if you think that "dog" is somehow a mockery... I love dogs. Dogs are the best, except for some peculiar behaviors and tendencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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