Living Without Expectations

[Noumena]

What a great and touching thread this is. Honestly. My eyes welled up with tears a couple times while reading this. Although they didn't make their way down my cheeks, they wanted too. Guess my tears are shy.

 

Beautiful. This has been a wonderful salve for me.

[Noggy]

I expect people to value my soul the way I value theirs. That is always my first mistake.

 

I just thought this was very interesting since it is so different from the way I view other people. I never, from at least age 13, have thought, much less expected, other people would value me in any way. When I perceive that they might, this is always almost like a shock- its suspicious- and I never like too much attention paid to me.

 

I can't say that I "value" most people except in the general way that I think life is valuable. Certainly I value my parents and others that have helped me. Mostly, I have never wanted to hurt anyone.

 

I always took my idea of what love is from the bible, and if you read it, it is a pretty tall order. Agape love is selfless love really. Most people only get as far as eros (romantic love) or philos (Friendship). In my amplified bible the first verse of 1st corinthians 14 says "make this love your aim, your great quest". So I did So, I grew up with the impression that the love I have for people actually came from god, because I didn't think myself capable of such a thing. I also always thought that this was required of me by god as a very basic part of my faith, as in not a choice but a command. I always thought that this kind of love was about valuing the soul of the other person.

 

I also thought in my deep seated naiveity that all christians (and probably everyone else) believed this and practised it. Yes, yes I know Im a fucking idiot but I have programmed myself to be this way, and I think after fifty years its is going to be a very hard habit to break. It was only five years ago that I discovered that not everyone thinks this way. Live in a bubble much??

 

Love will all your might! Of all things to lose yourself in, unconditional love is not the worst

[Deva]

I always took my idea of what love is from the bible, and if you read it, it is a pretty tall order. Agape love is selfless love really. Most people only get as far as eros (romantic love) or philos (Friendship). In my amplified bible the first verse of 1st corinthians 14 says "make this love your aim, your great quest". So I did So, I grew up with the impression that the love I have for people actually came from god, because I didn't think myself capable of such a thing. I also always thought that this was required of me by god as a very basic part of my faith, as in not a choice but a command. I always thought that this kind of love was about valuing the soul of the other person.

 

I also thought in my deep seated naiveity that all christians (and probably everyone else) believed this and practised it. Yes, yes I know Im a fucking idiot but I have programmed myself to be this way, and I think after fifty years its is going to be a very hard habit to break. It was only five years ago that I discovered that not everyone thinks this way. Live in a bubble much??

 

This thread has been extremely thought provoking and valuable.

 

I have always thought of myself as a serious person, but I think that maybe you took the Bible more seriously than I did.

 

Perhaps the emphasis in the church where i was raised was obedience to God, but they missed the main point - which was love - and chose instead to emphasize fear of God, judgment, the rapture, etc...

 

I was aware of the sections of the Bible that talked about love - but it didn't really mean much to me. I did not see it as a reality.

[Rev R]

Well, the bondage is all in your head. It's passions. Passions that are in human nature, but still not beneficial at all. Passions over things that don't really exist. Which is all of it, eh? What actually exists that won't take another form at a later date?

 

But I'm not so sure how true this is. Or how helpful :/

 

When it is said that all things are empty it is not being said that things do not exist. What it means is that things are devoid of an intrinsic nature. For example, not matter how hard you investigate a tree, you can find no element that can be said is the essence of tree. Much to the same effect, when you investigate yourself there is nothing that can be said to be the essence of self. Instead you find that there are simply a series of aggregates linked in a causal web.

 

But this is simply an expression of the realization and should not be trusted simply because I (or anyone else for that matter)say so. The investigation into the matter is what it takes to bring one to these sorts of realizations. This is why I say there is nothing but the path.

[Noggy]

Well, the bondage is all in your head. It's passions. Passions that are in human nature, but still not beneficial at all. Passions over things that don't really exist. Which is all of it, eh? What actually exists that won't take another form at a later date?

 

But I'm not so sure how true this is. Or how helpful :/

 

When it is said that all things are empty it is not being said that things do not exist. What it means is that things are devoid of an intrinsic nature. For example, not matter how hard you investigate a tree, you can find no element that can be said is the essence of tree. Much to the same effect, when you investigate yourself there is nothing that can be said to be the essence of self. Instead you find that there are simply a series of aggregates linked in a causal web.

 

But this is simply an expression of the realization and should not be trusted simply because I (or anyone else for that matter)say so. The investigation into the matter is what it takes to bring one to these sorts of realizations. This is why I say there is nothing but the path.

 

Is not my consciousness, my awareness, not the essence of myself? My body controls my brain, but does not my mind control my body? I forgo the things my body wants because of thoughts. Because I can visualize a future or something else that supersedes the needs of my body. Couldn't you say then that my mind is separate from my body? If I were to investigate "myself" then the only thing there is to investigate is my mind, and that is in essence, me.

[Rev R]

Consider this very conversation. Where exactly does Noggy end and Rodney begin? Where are the gaps? Where are the seams? How much of either of us is a product of the other's imagination? Would your mind be in its current state were this discussion not happening? Can you grasp your mind? Can you bring it to me? Can you point at something and say "This is my mind. This is Noggy,"?

 

Or from a more active angle, apply the same line of reasoning that led you to the idea that "things" are not real to the thing you call "I" and see where that takes you.

 

Night.

[Galien]

I always took my idea of what love is from the bible, and if you read it, it is a pretty tall order. Agape love is selfless love really. Most people only get as far as eros (romantic love) or philos (Friendship). In my amplified bible the first verse of 1st corinthians 14 says "make this love your aim, your great quest". So I did So, I grew up with the impression that the love I have for people actually came from god, because I didn't think myself capable of such a thing. I also always thought that this was required of me by god as a very basic part of my faith, as in not a choice but a command. I always thought that this kind of love was about valuing the soul of the other person.

 

I also thought in my deep seated naiveity that all christians (and probably everyone else) believed this and practised it. Yes, yes I know Im a fucking idiot but I have programmed myself to be this way, and I think after fifty years its is going to be a very hard habit to break. It was only five years ago that I discovered that not everyone thinks this way. Live in a bubble much??

 

This thread has been extremely thought provoking and valuable.

 

I have always thought of myself as a serious person, but I think that maybe you took the Bible more seriously than I did.

 

Perhaps the emphasis in the church where i was raised was obedience to God, but they missed the main point - which was love - and chose instead to emphasize fear of God, judgment, the rapture, etc...

 

I was aware of the sections of the Bible that talked about love - but it didn't really mean much to me. I did not see it as a reality.

 

Hehe Deva I take everything seriously. The key to my delightful cheery personality But I think that is why I was never scared of hell because I thought the whole thing was about love.

[Antlerman]

Bob, I wanted to share this with you as this was my treat tonight at my retreat I go to where I stay alone and spend several days in quite reflection and contemplation. I sat for 40 minutes watching this move over the sky tonight as the earth rolled in its arc through the sky. I felt life move through me, I touched the face of God and it is my own soul, and yours. I cannot express how this is no mere state, but Life Itself. The truth of reality is the Delight of Being, in all its depth and glory and simplicity in all things, in all souls.

 

 

“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”

 

Meister Eckhart

[Galien]

Bob, I wanted to share this with you as this was my treat tonight at my retreat I go to where I stay alone and spend several days in quite reflection and contemplation. I sat for 40 minutes watching this move over the sky tonight as the earth rolled in its arc through the sky. I felt life move through me, I touched the face of God and it is my own soul, and yours. I cannot express how this is no mere state, but Life Itself. The truth of reality is the Delight of Being, in all its depth and glory and simplicity in all things, in all souls.

 

 

“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”

 

Meister Eckhart

 

Pretty. Sad though how only nature seems to be beautiful and touch us but humans often touch us in ways that make us want to touch them back. WIth a tyre iron.

[Antlerman]

Such a cynic you are

[Galien]

Such a cynic you are

 

Nah if I were a cynic I wouldn't keep expecting to find some good ones. I still do. Too much trauma is a nasty thing antler, you get kicked in the face too many times you have two choices. Hide in a box and stay away from people, or continue to risk relationship. One leaves you lonely, the other leaves you constantly open to further trauma. Hell of a choice mate.

 

For some of us who are not able to cope with the selfishness and ego that we are socialised into, it is a hard road. You want the world to be a kind place, but it isn't. You see glimpses of kindness but they are fleeting. I know that is not everyone's experience. If you think it is okay to be an asshole in the first place, or self centred or greedy these things won't affect you adversely. If these things are anathema to your soul it is like living in hell every day.

[Margee]

Such a cynic you are

 

Nah if I were a cynic I wouldn't keep expecting to find some good ones. I still do. Too much trauma is a nasty thing antler, you get kicked in the face too many times you have two choices. Hide in a box and stay away from people, or continue to risk relationship. One leaves you lonely, the other leaves you constantly open to further trauma. Hell of a choice mate.

 

For some of us who are not able to cope with the selfishness and ego that we are socialised into, it is a hard road. You want the world to be a kind place, but it isn't. You see glimpses of kindness but they are fleeting. I know that is not everyone's experience. If you think it is okay to be an asshole in the first place, or self centred or greedy these things won't affect you adversely. If these things are anathema to your soul it is like living in hell every day.

 

Galien - This is another time for me, you have said something soooooo profound just for me! ..........thank you for your wisdom!

[Antlerman]

Such a cynic you are

 

Nah if I were a cynic I wouldn't keep expecting to find some good ones.

I typed that from my cell phone last night so I couldn't add the smiley face that I wanted to, you should know.

 

The point of my post was not about what others do or don't do that makes us happy or sad. It's about who we are. If that is the source of your soul, then you see others through a different set of eyes. It's not about them making you happy or making you sad through mistreatment, or even any circumstances of life. It's about your Center through which you see and experience the world.

 

It's quite amazing how all areas of our lives are affected when we move out from that place, including how negative events affect us. That was the point. Where is the locus of our self-identity? If it is my own eyes, through my own ego (all that we look to that identifies us as "me"), then we have much to protect, and much to loose, and much to fear, and much to resent. If is is our true Nature, then it is from that place we are able to truly see others as ourselves. They are not other to us, and we fail them as well.

 

 

I just found another quote from Meister Eckhart that says what I am saying, and which addresses the question of "living without expectations".

“Spirituality is not to be learned by flight from the world, or by running away from things, or by turning solitary and going apart from the world. Rather, we must learn an inner solitude wherever or with whomsoever we may be. We must learn to penetrate things and find God there.”

 

This is what I mean. And to clarify, "finding God" is finding "you", your true Self. One eye. One love.

[Noggy]

Split a piece of wood and I am there; lift a stone, and you will find me.

[Antlerman]

Split a piece of wood and I am there; lift a stone, and you will find me.

Exactly. I really like the Gospel of Thomas. It might have helped the Church to have left such "heresy" in the Bible.

[Noggy]

Such a cynic you are

 

Nah if I were a cynic I wouldn't keep expecting to find some good ones. I still do. Too much trauma is a nasty thing antler, you get kicked in the face too many times you have two choices. Hide in a box and stay away from people, or continue to risk relationship. One leaves you lonely, the other leaves you constantly open to further trauma. Hell of a choice mate.

 

For some of us who are not able to cope with the selfishness and ego that we are socialised into, it is a hard road. You want the world to be a kind place, but it isn't. You see glimpses of kindness but they are fleeting. I know that is not everyone's experience. If you think it is okay to be an asshole in the first place, or self centred or greedy these things won't affect you adversely. If these things are anathema to your soul it is like living in hell every day.

 

It is not the outside world that is making you sad, but rather you letting it.

[Galien]

Such a cynic you are

 

Nah if I were a cynic I wouldn't keep expecting to find some good ones. I still do. Too much trauma is a nasty thing antler, you get kicked in the face too many times you have two choices. Hide in a box and stay away from people, or continue to risk relationship. One leaves you lonely, the other leaves you constantly open to further trauma. Hell of a choice mate.

 

For some of us who are not able to cope with the selfishness and ego that we are socialised into, it is a hard road. You want the world to be a kind place, but it isn't. You see glimpses of kindness but they are fleeting. I know that is not everyone's experience. If you think it is okay to be an asshole in the first place, or self centred or greedy these things won't affect you adversely. If these things are anathema to your soul it is like living in hell every day.

 

It is not the outside world that is making you sad, but rather you letting it.

 

 

Yeah well if I ever learn to be a hard hearted bitch noggy, I'm sure I will find that place. You seem to have found that talent early in life. Write a book of instructions and send it to me.

 

That sounds like something a dumb christian would say to a person on a ledge about to throw themselves off. Not the first time you have demonstrated your ignorance regarding the inner lives of others.

[Noggy]

Yeah well if I ever learn to be a hard hearted bitch noggy, I'm sure I will find that place. You seem to have found that talent early in life. Write a book of instructions and send it to me.

 

That sounds like something a dumb christian would say to a person on a ledge about to throw themselves off. Not the first time you have demonstrated your ignorance regarding the inner lives of others.

 

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I said. I'm not proposing being a "cold-hearted bitch". To be able to deal with the impressions that life gives us is an important thing to be able to do to survive in this world.

 

You yourself mentioned how your incredible sensitivity to the world around you has caused you suffering, yes? Why is not allowing outside influences to affect your inner happiness being a "cold hearted bitch"? I'm not saying not to be compassionate, I'm merely saying that if you're dependent upon outside sources for your happiness, then you are at an extreme disadvantage. Because outside sources cannot be controlled. However, if what is inside of you is how you find your happiness, then it is completely within your control.

[Margee]

I recieve these blogs from 'the rat race trap' every month. I thought this month's was a good read and went along nicely with this thread.

http://www.ratracetrap.com/

 

Viewing Life as Packaged Deals

Posted: 17 Sep 2011 07:08 PM PDT

 

Life is made up of a whole set of package deals. It’s the nature of a package deal that you have to accept or reject the whole package, you don’t get to cherry pick the parts you want and reject the others. The good usually comes packaged with some bad. It’s part of the nature of the world we live in.

 

This is the problem I see with those gurus or spiritual leaders who claim everything can be great or perfect if you just look at things differently. There is something to what they say and I agree with much of it but they over do it. We think we have the right to demand life be great just because we exist or that it will be that way if we just imagine it.

 

I’m all for making the best of every situation, looking for something you can get out of each challenge or struggle and learn and grow from them. I have said as much many times here on this blog. However, I’m getting a little tired of people in general and gurus in particular acting like everything can be wonderful and perfect all the time.

 

One of the most important aspects of a good life are its relationships and this is one area where many people seem to not get the package deal concept. If there ever was a package deal it is people. Young people especially don’t seem to get this package concept of their romantic partners. As soon as the move in together or get married, they set about constantly griping about the things, big and little, that they don’t like in the package they selected. What’s worse is they think they can “change” them. Sorry, but you bought a package. Same with your friends. Make sure you select carefully because a package you will get and not a piece of clay you can mold.

 

I choose to live in the burbs because I like the space and green surroundings. I appreciate the peace and quiet most of the time. But I bought a package deal. I’m not surrounded by the cosmopolitan atmosphere of a city center and I crave that sometimes. Instead, I get the burb culture and it definitely can be bland. It’s a package deal.

 

Guess what happens when you elect a politician? You get a package, much of which you aren’t going to like.

 

When you work for someone else, especially a corporation, you are trading independence and freedom for at least some level of stability and security. When you work for yourself you are buying a different kind of package. It doesn’t help to constantly bitch about the parts you don’t like because they come with the package. Everything is not wonderful and great all the time.

 

I watched the U.S. Open Tennis Men’s finals earlier this week. Novak Djokovic definitely experienced the thrill of victory while Rafael Nadal experienced the agony of defeat. But even Djokovic suffered through the grueling and painful match with a back injury. He had what many consider the greatest year ever in the history of tennis for a men’s single player. That greatness came packaged with a great deal of mental and physical stress. What about all the other players with less spectacular (or any) success? Most elite performances are preceded by a great deal of not so thrilling practice and drills and yes even the agony of defeat.

 

Life has its ups and downs. The downs make the ups that much sweeter. Life is jam-packed with a bunch of small (and some not so small) packages – packages that bring both the good and the bad. Accept that and life can be wonderful.

[DesertBob]

Bob, I wanted to share this with you as this was my treat tonight at my retreat I go to where I stay alone and spend several days in quite reflection and contemplation. I sat for 40 minutes watching this move over the sky tonight as the earth rolled in its arc through the sky. I felt life move through me, I touched the face of God and it is my own soul, and yours. I cannot express how this is no mere state, but Life Itself. The truth of reality is the Delight of Being, in all its depth and glory and simplicity in all things, in all souls.

Thanks, AM, that is sweet and thoughtful of you. I have been traveling and dealing with various dramas for a few days and so have not had much down time and that is why I have not said anything until now, I am just catching up on messages.

 

Maybe some day I will touch the face of god or experience the delight of being. That would be nice. That is, really, what all of us are on a quest for, is it not? I just don't think it comes to each of us in the same way or by the same means. I also know it never comes to some of us, even those who know enough to yearn for it. Last night I helped my fiancee dispose of the last of her late husband's cremains. I know it never came for him. I know it never came for my wife either. My fiancee hasn't entirely lost her sense of wonder and I think there may be hope for her still, just barely. For me, I don't know ... it will be what it will be. I'm doing my best to stay open, to learn, to grow. What else can one do.

 

I do feel that you understand at least what I am experiencing and that is a gift to me :-)

 

--Bob

[DesertBob]

Galien - This is another time for me, you have said something soooooo profound just for me! ..........thank you for your wisdom!

+1

[DesertBob]

The point of my post was not about what others do or don't do that makes us happy or sad. It's about who we are. If that is the source of your soul, then you see others through a different set of eyes. It's not about them making you happy or making you sad through mistreatment, or even any circumstances of life. It's about your Center through which you see and experience the world.

 

It's quite amazing how all areas of our lives are affected when we move out from that place, including how negative events affect us. That was the point. Where is the locus of our self-identity? If it is my own eyes, through my own ego (all that we look to that identifies us as "me"), then we have much to protect, and much to loose, and much to fear, and much to resent. If is is our true Nature, then it is from that place we are able to truly see others as ourselves. They are not other to us, and we fail them as well.

 

 

I just found another quote from Meister Eckhart that says what I am saying, and which addresses the question of "living without expectations".

“Spirituality is not to be learned by flight from the world, or by running away from things, or by turning solitary and going apart from the world. Rather, we must learn an inner solitude wherever or with whomsoever we may be. We must learn to penetrate things and find God there.”

 

This is what I mean. And to clarify, "finding God" is finding "you", your true Self. One eye. One love.

My fiancee, in her typical non-judgmental way, senses a lack of center in me sometimes and just says I "really need to work on that". I never know quite what either she or you mean when you talk like that. I yam what I yam. The world hurts. I want it to stop but I don't know how to feel differently than I do, at least not without being inauthentic or heaping on gobs of false bravado that would fool no one, most especially not me.

 

I also know that she lacks her own center in her own unique ways. I don't have her abandonment / intimacy issues and she doesn't have my lack of meaning / purpose issues; it's easy enough for us to say to each other we really need to work on those issues but we wouldn't have the issues in the first place if there weren't real causes and effects that put them there. I see each of us essentially alone with our personal demons.

 

As for Eckhart's idea of pushing through things while maintaining an "inner solitude" I feel that is basically what I do. I am in most respects able to be true to myself and hold fast to it but that does not mean the experience of holding fast does not exhaust me or that the necessity to expend that energy doesn't imply that my environment is unpleasant and/or hostile.

 

I suppose you would say I'm holding fast to some form of ego rather than to my "true self" but that is an inherently pointless observation to me since I can only hold fast to what I know. If there is falsity in my self identity then inherently I wouldn't be aware of it or even if aware, wouldn't have a clue how to deal with it.

 

That said, I do agree that it's helpful not to say that others / you / that person "make" me sad or happy or anything else -- just as we advised my "stepson" recently that his ennui with high school that he thought would magically go away in college -- and, predictably, hasn't -- is internal to him and will follow him wherever he goes until he deals with it. Properly locating an issue as internal or external is a perquisite to even beginning to deal with it effectively. But can we tell this young man HOW to deal with his ennui and his other issues? Not really. We can tell him how WE would deal with it, we can gum around the edges in other ways but basically he's obliged to figure it out for himself, fighting uphill with one hand tied behind his back -- just as we all do.

 

Finding what you term "release" is a whole separate beast though. I may be more ready than many to experience "release" but that doesn't make it easy or a slam dunk by any means.

[Antlerman]

For the moment I'm just going to share these from last night.

 

 

 

I will share one thing I posted on another site this morning as it might pertain:

 

"You sound like what has always drawn me the most from the first. In fact, I used to latch onto the verses of the Bible that talked about that to try to hold onto my Christian faith at the time, because the rest of the stuff I was hearing and learning about seemed to violate the very heart of how I experienced "God". "The heavens declare the glory of God, the firmament showeth his handiwork", I would say to myself all the time, "The invisible things of him through creation are clearly seen and made known," was another. "When I consider the heavens, the moon and the stars, what is man that thou art mindful of him?", etc. Yes, I know what this is, and it is very positive. Everyone experiences this and it is good. It is not necessary to understand it as indicative of ones own religious traditions framework however. It transcends that and can be experienced with or without putting the face "God" on it. What is it people experience?

 

We're talking about mystic traditions in this thread now. You should look at people like Ralph Waldo Emerson who expresses the experience of transcendence through nature. His experience of the depths of the "Divine", as I'll call it, does not put any religion's deity on it, and to me it surpasses what your traditional religious experience is, what all traditions hold. This is why I will not in any way say an atheist misses this. In fact, I would say it can actually help in experiencing it to not get God in the way!! If you set aside dogma and definitions and simply experience it inside you, that to me is touching the Divine. It does not, and is even preferable in a lot of ways, to not inject any concepts about a God in there! Simple being itself washing over you, filling you, flooding you, opening you beyond yourself to the Infinite. That, is the heart of the spiritual. That is the opening of the heart of human experience into higher self."

 

The point is setting all conceptions, all concerns aside and let simple Being Itself wash over you, filling you. "One eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love."

[asanerman]

Yes, Bob I was asking questions merely for effect with no answer expected. You did respond to the gest of the question. I can only infer from your response that we "tread" similar terrain.

I'll unwrap that statement by saying I too was not sure my life had ever been truly "salubrious." Catharsis began only after I understood, on an enduring level, how flawed that conclusion was.

 

It was in my second year of undergraduate work when everything "fell apart," when the "jug" from whence I drank (that nothing favorable to or promoting health or my well-being) could not hold down any longer what my spirit kept telling me was faulty. In other words I was driving myself "mad." A part of me (my driven-ness?) was refusing to listen to the "madness." Stress was changing the neural networks of my brain. I was disconnecting from my natural salubrious! My "season of discontent" was killing my life.

 

I was "lucky" or fortunate enough to have been exposed to the very best that the interdisciplinary fields of Interpersonal Neurobiology and Psychotherapy had to offer. I interacted with students, teachers and therapists who were curious about the biological basis of human behavior and thought. I found authentic and qualified help. I found "pathways" to renewal and release. I was introduced to greater self awareness based upon appreciation rather than the ongoing cycle of hope and fear

 

From the perspective of neuroscience, psychotherapy can be understood as a specific kind of enriched environment designed to enhance the growth of neurons and the integration of neural networks. Quality psychotherapy does stimulate neuropasticity and naural intergration. I was provided information about how psychology understood my difficulties in the form of psychoeducation, interpretations and reality testing. I was encouraged to express feelings and become conscious of aspects of myself of which I was completely unaware. I was dared to take risk. I was guided back and forth between thoughts and feelings, that ultimately help me establish new connections between the two. My encounter with interpersonal neurobiology help me alter my faulty description of myself and the world. My awareness was heightened. I began to make better decisions about my happiness. I gained independence from my discontent.

 

One more dose of the anecdotal and I'm through!

 

I remember what a close psychotherapist friend told me when I was going through my divorce: "Saner you're a "fix it" kind of guy--you see everything as fixable. But everything is not fixable. Romance cannot be fixed nor can life.

You come to me thinking you can fix what it took you and your spouse five long years to fuck-up-- a lot of which you were not responsible and could do nothing about-- with a hand full of roses and therapy. You can't adapt. you cannot fix this. Your perception is faulty because your perspective is limited. You cannot adapt your perceptions any longer. Your love affair with this women is over! You cannot fix this my friend! You must gain perspective, get a broader view or you will die."

 

The anecdotal is fine but I had to "discover" for myself the possibilities that exist that can satisfy my yearning to be "whole."

 

I have concluded along with Wilber that "healthy development and healthy transcendence are the same thing, since development is "transcend and include."

 

Perceptions change, drastically with perspective. We've got nothing to loose but the same old view!

 

saner

[Galien]

Antler:

It's quite amazing how all areas of our lives are affected when we move out from that place, including how negative events affect us. That was the point. Where is the locus of our self-identity? If it is my own eyes, through my own ego (all that we look to that identifies us as "me"), then we have much to protect, and much to loose, and much to fear, and much to resent. If is is our true Nature, then it is from that place we are able to truly see others as ourselves. They are not other to us, and we fail them as well.

 

I just found another quote from Meister Eckhart that says what I am saying, and which addresses the question of "living without expectations".

“Spirituality is not to be learned by flight from the world, or by running away from things, or by turning solitary and going apart from the world. Rather, we must learn an inner solitude wherever or with whomsoever we may be. We must learn to penetrate things and find God there.”

 

This is what I mean. And to clarify, "finding God" is finding "you", your true Self. One eye. One love.

 

Hmm. Think we might have to agree to disagree on this one Antler. As you know I don't think there is a one size fits all approach to life, because we are all different people. If I had no locus of self-identity within myself I would have topped myself years ago. Trust me it was touch and go there more than once. Seeing others as ourselves is a high ideal, I know this because I have felt it all my life. However, it is out of balance. If I have believed that I should love my neighbour as myself, and that everyone is my neighbour, and I have a healthy self esteem I will treat everyone with the respect I believe I should be treated with. Which would be just peachy if everyone felt the same way, but they don't. You just end up running on empty because you are not playing by the same rules as others. I can build a wall around my heart, or reframe the way I look at life until the cows come home. I can bend and twist and stretch my perceptions to turn what really goes in the world into something I can live with, but it doesn't change the basic reality. The person before me is of more value to me than I am to them.

 

If I penetrate that, I find ignorance and selfishness in others, and ignorance and naiveity in myself, but I don't find god.

 

I can't find anything in that that suggests some great oneness perceived by everyone, more a separation and a pervasive self interest, and a world unconcerned with changing it.

 

There will always be some of us who cannot ignore the nakedness of the emporer, no matter how loud the fanfare or how many other people are sucked in by the atmosphere. That is why I was such a total failure as a christian