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Blasphemy Of The Holy Spirit


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Here I sit on a Sunday morning with my coffee and thoughts. So many years, Sunday morning was for church. It still feels a bit funny, but I am getting used to it. (and enjoying it) So my thought this morning is on the topic of 'blasphemy of the holy spirit'. I'm positive that I have committed that unforgivable sin. I have rejected all of it, the whole gospel.

 

Now, my silly question is......for those of us who once 'knew the truth' and rejected it, I wonder what would happen if we decided to accept the lord jesus back into our lives. Would he 'save' us and forgive us again? I am not going to do this - I was just wondering, if god would give us a second chance? What about the 'atheist in the fox hole' who once knew the lord and now he is scared for his eternal life and does scream out for the lord to save him? He once knew the truth - would god show mercy on him?

 

Some of you here are great bible scholar's and I depend on you for your help in understanding. What do you think about this scripture?

Even when I was a christian, I always worried that I failed this test because I always did question the bible.

 

Matthew 12:31-32

 

31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

 

32 "And whoever shall speak a word
against the Son of Man, it
shall be forgiven him
; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it
shall not be forgiven him
, either in this age, or in the {age} to come.

 

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Here I sit on a Sunday morning with my coffee and thoughts.

 

If it's great coffee, you have found salvation! Yahoooo!

 

Now, my silly question is......for those of us who once 'knew the truth' and rejected it, I wonder what would happen if we decided to accept the lord jesus back into our lives.

 

I'm no scholar, but the Holy Spirit in the N.T. is an ambiguous ghost used to comfort believers and scare doubters. If an Ex-Cer can go back to belief, then I'd think he or she had a "falling away" as a backslider. I think it impossible to undo apostasy, unless the belief wasn't totally lost. But if the former Christian went back to his "vomit" (my play on the text), the biblegod would reject him.

 

2Peter2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
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Greetings on this Sunday morning. I'm drinking coffee, watching my kittens sleep next to me, and reading your post. :-)

 

I think that that verse isn't worth a worry, mostly because it is impossible even for a Christian to take every verse in the Bible at its face value. That verse directly contradicts many others (I'm thinking lost sheep, mustard seed type moments), so how do you know which one outweighs the others? Muslims solve those types of contradictions (according to a class I took) by saying that the most recent Hadith outweighs any that came before, but Christianity never developed a neat system like that.

 

I'm not a Bible scholar, but my degree is in History and from that background I would say to look at it in context. If it's only one isolated saying that doesn't fit in with the rest of the lore, than it is more likely to be a misunderstood comment than a solid doctrine that was taught over and over again in many different ways. I think the concepts that Jesus and his followers really wanted people to learn appear often and are illustrated by several different parables/incidents/sermons. When you look at the Bible as a book of lore, similar to say the Arthurian legends, it becomes a lot easier to understand, a lot less worrisome, and even has some really beautiful sentiments. You can pick those out and enjoy them now because you don't have to base your eternal health on accepting every word. Put them in your little treasure box of wisdom and beautiful phrases along with quotes from other religions, atheists, poems, songs, and words from friends that really struck you.

 

On the other hand, if that is the T-R-U-T-H of the universes, then you and me are already doomed and that provides a nice sense of closure because there's nothing we can do about it, so we might as well enjoy the ride.;-)

 

Edit: Agnosticator beat me to posting! Good morning! I had forgotten that vomit verse.......just......wow.

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Using xtian philosophy and xtian 'reasoning', if one returns to the church and xtian religion, then one has not really committed an act against the Holy Spirit, otherwise there would be no nagging feeling to return to the religion. The parable of the Prodigal Son is a story of forgiveness where even as we are returning to our father (god) he sees us and hurries to meet us in celebration that we have returned to him. The NT is full of it, parables that is, cutesy stories of forgiveness and salvation that fall apart when the rest of the NT is compared to the OT. It is still surprising to me that the NT and OT share a single volume. The NT really is not a follow up volume to the OT. Christians stretch that response to the breaking point, and still believe it. If there were a Holy Spirit, that one could eternally offend, why hasn't it taken control of its own church and forced its own members to accept its authority instead of building more and more churches who teach differently from the other? I am not afraid of insulting the Holy Spirit anymore than I am Santa Claus, although there is that really neat Corvette I've had my eye on for xmas!

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Now, my silly question is......for those of us who once 'knew the truth' and rejected it, I wonder what would happen if we decided to accept the lord jesus back into our lives. Would he 'save' us and forgive us again? I am not going to do this - I was just wondering, if god would give us a second chance? What about the 'atheist in the fox hole' who once knew the lord and now he is scared for his eternal life and does scream out for the lord to save him? He once knew the truth - would god show mercy on him?

Blasphemy is different from rejecting any "truth." The Jewish Encyclopedia covers it nicely:

Blasphemy

 

Evil or profane speaking of God. The essence of the crime consists in the impious purpose in using the words, and does not necessarily include the performance of any desecrating act.

 

The Jewish law is based on the case of the blasphemer, one of the mixed multitude that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel (Lev. xxiv. 10-23). He blasphemed the name of the Lord and cursed; was sentenced to be taken without the camp; and it was decreed that all who heard him should lay their hands upon his head, and that all the congregation should stone him. The judgment in his case was formulated in a general law in verses 15 and 16.

 

[...]Beyond the reference to cursing in the text of Leviticus, there is nothing in the Biblical laws to indicate what constitutes the crime, and nothing to show that, to prove blasphemy, it was required to prove that the blasphemer had uttered the name of God. The Mishnah, however, laying stress on the term "noḳeb," declares that the blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounce the name of God (Mishnah Sanh. vii. 5). The Gemara goes further and extends the crime to an impious use of any words which indicate the sacred attributes of God, such as "The Holy One" or "The Merciful One." As long as the Jewish courts exercised criminal jurisdiction, the death penalty was inflicted only upon the blasphemer who used the Ineffable Name; but the blasphemer of God's attributes was subjected to corporal punishment (Sanh. 56a).[...]

 

According to R. Ḥiyya, the rending of garments was no longer required after the fall of the Temple ("He who hears blasphemy nowadays is not obliged to rend his garments, because otherwise his garments would be nothing but tatters," Sanh. ib.); for the criminal jurisdiction of the Jewish courts had ceased, and the fear of death no longer deterred the blasphemers. [...]

 

[...]Abba Saul was of the opinion that, in addition to the punishment inflicted by human power, the blasphemer is also excluded from the life in the world to come ('Ab. Zarah 18a). See Sacrilege; Shem ha-Meforash; Unbelief.

So it might be difficult to demonstrate blasphemy on these conditions. What is the name of this "holy spirit?" Roger? Jane? I guess you'll have to just speak about it's attributes but that is only open to corporal punishment. This "holy spirit" must be more important that god if this is the case. It makes more sense to see the "holy spirit" as the same as/equal to the god. It would also mean the "son of man" in this example is not the same as the god itself. If it were equal to the god and/or the "spirit" then it should follow the same penalties would apply. They do not.

 

None of this has anything to do with rejecting or accepting the various gospels. It has more to do with saying the sacred name(s) and not impugning the power(s) of the deity (or deities as the case may be).

 

Some of you here are great bible scholar's and I depend on you for your help in understanding. What do you think about this scripture?

Even when I was a christian, I always worried that I failed this test because I always did question the bible.

Questioning the bible in general could be enough if you are open about it. Silence is golden. Blasphemy tends to only occur when you open your mouth and there are witnesses as opposed to being a thought crime.

 

mwc

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In my christian background (pentecostal), leaving the faith was never considered blaspheming the holy spirit. As mentioned by other posts, there's plenty of evidence to show that the NT God is always looking to receive you back. One explanation I heard a number of times was that blaspheming the holy spirit was "knowingly attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan". Perhaps the source for this thought may have been where the pharisees say Jesus is using demonic powers to heal the sick.

 

Either way, we were never really concerned about that verse and believed that any "saved" person wasn't going to blaspheme the Holy Spirit anyway.

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Others have given you some good theological answers to your question and I like what they said. I wanted to add just one thought that really just occured to me while I read your post.

 

I find it interesting that the Christian doctrine of the trinity posits that god the father, god the son, and god the holy spirit are separate but at the same time they are one. So, in the trinitarian sense, the holy spirit is no different from god the father or from Jesus. Jesus is the holy spirit and Jesus is the father, and the father is Jesus and is the holy spirit, and the holy spirit is the father and Jesus. But the verse you quoted about blaspheming the holy spirit treats the holy spirit as different from the other two. Blaspheming Jesus is forgivable, but blaspheming the holy spirit is not forgivable. How can that be the case since Jesus and the holy spirit are supposed to be one and the same in the trinitarian sense?

 

All of that is another way to say that we see a contradiction when it comes to blasphemy of the holy spirit and the doctrine of the trinity. So, either they are all one and blasphemy must be treated the same whether done against Jesus or the holy spirit, or they are not one and the doctrine of the trinity is not theologically supportable. And if the doctrine of the trinity is not theologically supported, then it wouldn't matter whether one blasphemed the holy spirit because the holy spirit could not be part of this one god. In other words, Christianity could not be true (which it isn't, anyway).

 

Did that help, or did I confuse you? :lmao:

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In my christian background (pentecostal), leaving the faith was never considered blaspheming the holy spirit. As mentioned by other posts, there's plenty of evidence to show that the NT God is always looking to receive you back. One explanation I heard a number of times was that blaspheming the holy spirit was "knowingly attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan". Perhaps the source for this thought may have been where the pharisees say Jesus is using demonic powers to heal the sick.

 

Either way, we were never really concerned about that verse and believed that any "saved" person wasn't going to blaspheme the Holy Spirit anyway.

 

Discern -I had heard this explanation also one time!! thank you for reminding me!

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Others have given you some good theological answers to your question and I like what they said. I wanted to add just one thought that really just occured to me while I read your post.

 

I find it interesting that the Christian doctrine of the trinity posits that god the father, god the son, and god the holy spirit are separate but at the same time they are one. So, in the trinitarian sense, the holy spirit is no different from god the father or from Jesus. Jesus is the holy spirit and Jesus is the father, and the father is Jesus and is the holy spirit, and the holy spirit is the father and Jesus. But the verse you quoted about blaspheming the holy spirit treats the holy spirit as different from the other two. Blaspheming Jesus is forgivable, but blaspheming the holy spirit is not forgivable. How can that be the case since Jesus and the holy spirit are supposed to be one and the same in the trinitarian sense?

 

All of that is another way to say that we see a contradiction when it comes to blasphemy of the holy spirit and the doctrine of the trinity. So, either they are all one and blasphemy must be treated the same whether done against Jesus or the holy spirit, or they are not one and the doctrine of the trinity is not theologically supportable. And if the doctrine of the trinity is not theologically supported, then it wouldn't matter whether one blasphemed the holy spirit because the holy spirit could not be part of this one god. In other words, Christianity could not be true (which it isn't, anyway).

 

Did that help, or did I confuse you? :lmao:

 

Overcame - this makes perfect sense to me!! thank you! :grin: You always make perfect sense to me!!

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Well, I guess that's one way to get the recruiters to leave you alone.

 

Them: "Won't you come and experience the wonders of jesus and attend church with us?"

 

You: "But, I've blasphemed!"

 

Them: "Oh, nevermind."

 

Of course that would never work. They'll find a loop hole to convince you to come back.

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Well, I guess that's one way to get the recruiters to leave you alone.

 

Them: "Won't you come and experience the wonders of jesus and attend church with us?"

 

You: "But, I've blasphemed!"

 

Them: "Oh, nevermind."

 

Of course that would never work. They'll find a loop hole to convince you to come back.

 

Just say Holy Spirit = Satan. And then start yelling things in different languages and waiving your arms around your head. THEN they will leave you alone.

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Well, I guess that's one way to get the recruiters to leave you alone.

 

Them: "Won't you come and experience the wonders of jesus and attend church with us?"

 

You: "But, I've blasphemed!"

 

Them: "Oh, nevermind."

 

Of course that would never work. They'll find a loop hole to convince you to come back.

 

Just say Holy Spirit = Satan. And then start yelling things in different languages and waiving your arms around your head. THEN they will leave you alone.

 

Not in my neck of the woods. They'd probably have a prayer circle every day, 24/7 in my front yard until I gave in, or moved!

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Margee,You have got to stop beating yourself up with the cult.The fear of that garbage being true is motivation to continue hurting yourself with worry and guilt. It is still emotional and spiritual abuse. You are not a "sinner" or any other bullshit title that a delusional cult wants to hang on you! Live your life without doubt and you will do fine. :kiss:

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Margee,You have got to stop beating yourself up with the cult.The fear of that garbage being true is motivation to continue hurting yourself with worry and guilt. It is still emotional and spiritual abuse. You are not a "sinner" or any other bullshit title that a delusional cult wants to hang on you! Live your life without doubt and you will do fine. :kiss:

 

And even IF christianity were true, the bible CLEARLY isn't.

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Margee, I think it would be best if you just tossed the Bible. Just forget it as much as possible.

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We knock this subject around every few months. We've had some fun in the past if you'll search.

 

Personally, I'd be more concerned pissing off my local deli guy or someone similar who really counts (and exists.)

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The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin. People who have committed that sin have calluses on their ears (spiritually speaking) and they tend not to worry about their salvation, they just don't care. N.B. it is hard for a human to know if someone reached that point.

 

......

 

P.S. Hi Par, (( Christianly hugs to Par))

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People who have committed that sin have calluses on their ears (spiritually speaking) and they tend not to worry about their salvation, they just don't care. ......

 

 

 

You're starting to understand the real me.

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People who have committed that sin have calluses on their ears (spiritually speaking) and they tend not to worry about their salvation, they just don't care. ......

 

 

 

You're starting to understand the real me.

 

 

Eh, I think you care a little bit, you just like to hide it. You enjoy playing the harlot (spiritually speaking).

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Yeah, I've always taken Blasphemy of the holy spirit to be knowingly attributing works of the holy spirit to satan or other. Basically, I think that since we're all here at Ex-C, it's likely none of us never truly "knew" the holy spirit to blaspheme it- since if we ever thought it was real, we wouldn't have left. So it's safe to say none of us have done it.

 

I don't agree with what you said, some people genuinely believed and did respond to the wooing of the HS but for some, their misunderstanding of God's character turned them off like in this post: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/7197-fear-of-hell/ . It is possible to leave your first love --> http://bible.cc/revelation/2-4.htm ; relationships NEED work and misunderstandings can turn a relationship sour. Blaspheming the Spirit is when humans CONTINUALLY choose to remain sour and not be reconciled to God.

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Yeah, I've always taken Blasphemy of the holy spirit to be knowingly attributing works of the holy spirit to satan or other. Basically, I think that since we're all here at Ex-C, it's likely none of us never truly "knew" the holy spirit to blaspheme it- since if we ever thought it was real, we wouldn't have left. So it's safe to say none of us have done it.

 

I don't agree with what you said, some people genuinely believed and did respond to the wooing of the HS but for some, their misunderstanding of God's character turned them off like in this post: http://www.ex-christ...7-fear-of-hell/ . It is possible to leave your first love --> http://bible.cc/revelation/2-4.htm ; relationships NEED work and misunderstandings can turn a relationship sour. Blaspheming the Spirit is when humans CONTINUALLY choose to remain sour and not be reconciled to God.

 

Pretend to know what it means by "blaspheming the holy spirit". It's a random phrase in the bible that has plenty of different ways of being interpreted. Your "CONTINUALLY" clause is supported by nothing other than your wishful thinking.

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Yeah, I've always taken Blasphemy of the holy spirit to be knowingly attributing works of the holy spirit to satan or other. Basically, I think that since we're all here at Ex-C, it's likely none of us never truly "knew" the holy spirit to blaspheme it- since if we ever thought it was real, we wouldn't have left. So it's safe to say none of us have done it.

 

I don't agree with what you said, some people genuinely believed and did respond to the wooing of the HS but for some, their misunderstanding of God's character turned them off like in this post: http://www.ex-christ...7-fear-of-hell/ . It is possible to leave your first love --> http://bible.cc/revelation/2-4.htm ; relationships NEED work and misunderstandings can turn a relationship sour. Blaspheming the Spirit is when humans CONTINUALLY choose to remain sour and not be reconciled to God.

 

Pretend to know what it means by "blaspheming the holy spirit". It's a random phrase in the bible that has plenty of different ways of being interpreted. Your "CONTINUALLY" clause is supported by nothing other than your wishful thinking.

 

 

The bible interprets ITSELF (you should try it, compare the scriptures in the margins) but the HS gives lucidity to the verses so a believer can then internalize the biblical teachings. Blaspheming is being callused to the pleadings of the HS and it can include mocking God (an outward expression of an inward belief) but it is persistently doing it that causes and will cause people to be lost. The two thieves on the cross are examples of that, they both were mocking God and not responding to the HS but one of them responded and he will be resurrected when Jesus returns.

 

P.S. Does the "wishful thinking" you mentioned mean that it makes sense to you (objectively speaking)?

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Yeah, I've always taken Blasphemy of the holy spirit to be knowingly attributing works of the holy spirit to satan or other. Basically, I think that since we're all here at Ex-C, it's likely none of us never truly "knew" the holy spirit to blaspheme it- since if we ever thought it was real, we wouldn't have left. So it's safe to say none of us have done it.

 

I don't agree with what you said, some people genuinely believed and did respond to the wooing of the HS but for some, their misunderstanding of God's character turned them off like in this post: http://www.ex-christ...7-fear-of-hell/ . It is possible to leave your first love --> http://bible.cc/revelation/2-4.htm ; relationships NEED work and misunderstandings can turn a relationship sour. Blaspheming the Spirit is when humans CONTINUALLY choose to remain sour and not be reconciled to God.

 

Pretend to know what it means by "blaspheming the holy spirit". It's a random phrase in the bible that has plenty of different ways of being interpreted. Your "CONTINUALLY" clause is supported by nothing other than your wishful thinking.

 

 

The bible interprets ITSELF (you should try it, compare the scriptures in the margins) but the HS gives lucidity to the verses so a believer can then internalize the biblical teachings. Blaspheming is being callused to the pleadings of the HS and it can include mocking God (an outward expression of an inward belief) but it is persistently doing it that causes and will cause people to be lost. The two thieves on the cross are examples of that, they both were mocking God and not responding to the HS but one of them responded and he will be resurrected when Jesus returns.

 

P.S. Does the "wishful thinking" you mentioned mean that it makes sense to you (objectively speaking)?

 

The bible interprets itself in the minds of the people who read it.

 

you obviously understand what blasphemy is "the outward mocking of", and so therefore the "outward mocking of the holy spirit" gets you eternal hellfire. I'm interested in how you got "continually".

 

And as for the thieves, didn't jesus say that "today" he would be with him in paradise? Not when jesus returns? Also, it seems that Jesus' words about blasphemy say that if they make fun of jesus, then everything is okay, but making fun of the holy derp will get you eternal hellfire. The thief was NOT making fun of the HS. He was making fun of jesus. derp

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