Blasphemy Of The Holy Spirit

[Suzy]

One of the great things about not believing is that I don't have to worry about stupid shit like "blaspheming of the HS" any more.

 

When I was a Christian I had so much fear that I would accidentally commit it.

 

It's good to be free.

 

 

[Thumbelina]

Dude, why don't you cite chapter and verses? You do know that the bible uses chiasms as a teaching device, right? I did not recently look at those verses; are you citing two different recordings in two different gospels? Jesus left the temple and went to the mount where He was able to overlook the temple. Did the verse mention the timespan? The bible tends to record the most imporatant things and who knows how much yapping they did during their walk. Maybe Jesus did not answer their question because the Pharisees would hear and they repeated the question, I dunno, but cite where you take the verses from.

 

Sorry, I thought you knew your biblay.

 

Matthew 24 as you mentioned.

 

 

The bible causes one to spend time digging in order to get its precepts, probably so one won't get distracted with TV and other things. I glanced at the texts briefly and I looked at the cross references and 1 or 2 commentaries.

http://bible.cc/matthew/24-1.htm

 

 

 

One commentary said this:

And Jesus went out, and departed from, the temple - Or, And Jesus, going out of the temple, was going away. This is the arrangement of the words in several eminent manuscripts, versions, and fathers; and is much clearer than that in the common translation. The Jews say the temple was built of white and green-spotted marble. See Lightfoot. Josephus says the stones were white and strong; fifty feet long, twenty-four broad, and sixteen thick. Antiq. b. 15. c. xi. See Mark 13:1.

 

I bet if one does a lot of digging one will see that it is in keeping with spunky Jesus telling SOME Jews that their house has been left onto them DESOLATE. The disciples knew Jesus' frame of mind so walking away probably meant He left the temple for good as the commentaries say.

 

 

 

 

 

I was correct, to know what is going on one sometimes needs to read the surrounding chapters. Matthew 23 http://kingjbible.com/matthew/23.htm

 

describes Jesus giving a scathing rebuke to the church hypocrites in the presence of the disciples and others. The first two verses of Matthew 24 continues from Matthew 23; actually the whole thing spans from Matthew 23:13 to Matthew 24:2. In my bible there are some little symbols that tells one where a new set of circumstances starts and ends. Hey, I was also correct about Jesus leaving the temple desolate, it says so in Matthew 23:38 http://bible.cc/matthew/23-38.htm

 

"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

 

 

 

Alas, skeptics do this all the time, they read the texts superficially without any HS and jump to the wrong conclusions.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: In the bible, in Revelation etc. eg. http://bible.cc/revelation/20-12.htm

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

 

 

Agnosticator said: Sorry, but it tells you no such thing. You said,"He has to do it for the greater good of His creatures, to vindicate His character so they can know they can trust Him for their security." That is not what those verses say.

 

 

Thumbelina: I said it's a concept from the BOOK of Revelation etc., etc. meaning from other parts of the bible that interlocks with different teachings so that the believer can get the big picture about God's justice AND mercy.

 

 

 

God wants to vindicate His character to the figurative ninety and nine sheep ( http://bible.cc/matthew/18-13.htm ) that NEVER strayed (i.e. unfallen beings from other worlds http://bible.cc/job/1-6.htm ; http://bible.cc/job/38-7.htm as well as to the redeemed --> And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Rev 15:3 http://kingjbible.com/revelation/15.htm Oh Agi, the redeemed will have a special bond with Jesus, they can sing the blues http://lyrics.astraweb.com/display/993/hymns..unknown..holy_holy_is_what_the_angels_sing.html . After this planet's trial with lawlessness or sin, all beings will acknowledge that God's laws are there for the benefit of everyone; so yes His character will be vindicated.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The HS tells us, if God says don't judge/condemn and then in the bible it talks about the books that judge us and then in talks about cities of refuge in the OT to illustrate how God forgives us.

 

 

 

Agnosticator said: I didn't get that memo.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: It's in the bible, you have to not be censorious and irreverent to understand the bible and you need to not be a superficial reader AND you need to obey God http://bible.cc/acts/5-32.htm . Agi, have you never had a time when you woke up during the wee hours of the morning and you're reading the bible and you are understanding it as God is communicating with you and you understand even more just how much God loves you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: It also talks about God as a fire A LOT, in the bible then the HS will enlighten the believers as to what the texts mean.

 

 

 

Agnosticator said: See, the biblegod uses a secret code that can only be deciphered by "true" christians. The fire proves He hates 99.9999% of people who ever lived.

 

 

Thumbelina: There you go again, just like other skeptics, looking at the surface; Satan knew God's rules, he was the covering cherub and 1st in command of the angels and he sinned and he blasphemed perpetually so God will have to nuke him and all those who aligned themselves with him http://bible.cc/matthew/25-41.htm . *sad* They are/will be a rebellious herd.

 

 

 

Look it, God's presence is called FIRE ----> http://topicalbible.org/f/fire.htm . His Holy fire consumes sin and sinners but it will not harm the righteous.Yeah, true Christians --> And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32 God looks at the MOTIVES of man and then He enlightens them; it happens at different times of course.

[Thumbelina]

Agnosticator said: Thumbelina, What is love? It is the reaching out to another with no agenda for self, while caring for and nurturing that other being. It is a reciprocal relationship, not just one way. To harm or end a life because that person disagrees with your pronouncements would be immoral, don't you think?

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Biblical definition of love is that it fulfills the Law http://bible.cc/romans/13-10.htm ; http://bible.cc/1_john/5-3.htm . The Law is SUMMED up as loving God first (love originates in God) and loving your fellow man as yourself. Love does not spoil a person. Dude, have you ever been around bratty kids that were not disciplined? Tell a baby not to touch something that will cause it great harm or even death and what does it do? It spits at you and continues doing mischief, you'll have to restrain that baby for that baby just won't get it. Bigger kids might need a little smack to the tush until they can reason better. How much WORSE is it then for grown folks (eg. Adam and Eve) to not listen to simple instructions?

 

 

 

Agnosticator said: The biblegod has no such relationship with humans because the Bible presents a creator/ownership relation between God and His creation. The potter forms the clay to his own liking. But we are not things to be molded to another's will. Good parents don't seek to control their children as they mature, unless the parents want their children to remain immature and obedient. But that is what the biblegod desires.

 

 

Thumbelina: God is lovely http://bible.cc/psalms/34-8.htm . Man is not self existent so man will have to follow the laws of a PERFECT and Holy being. This is WHY God has rules, Agi ---> O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/5-29.htm To have perfect and perpetual peace and happiness we have to obey God's commandments; God is selfless and all His creatures has to be that way too http://bible.cc/leviticus/11-45.htm . The ONLY how to rightly keep the commandments is if we LOVE God http://bible.cc/john/14-15.htm so forget what Centauri and Rabbi Tovia says about being saved by works, works HAVE to be motivated by love; otherwise there will be no joy. How do you propose God deal with perpetual sinners who will not repent and who will cause unhappiness to everyone else? Are you suggesting that God should immortalize evil? That is what some people believe when they teach about hell being forever.

[Thumbelina]

Hey Agi, Jesus did not go to paradise on good Friday , the bible says so. He came out of the tomb on Sunday and humans saw Him and on that Sunday He went to heaven.

This is good to know.

 

Is it in G.Matthew? Nope. Never went anywhere except a mountain.

 

Is it G.Mark? Only in the later, long revision, otherwise it seems to go silent.

 

Is it in G.Luke? This one has a magic ascension that may have happened on the first day of the week. We'll cross-check this with the author "Luke's" other supposed work.

 

Is it in G.John? No. He hung around for a week to see Thomas than another 40 days and never ascended. So look to about 48 days (~50 total depending on your count).

 

Is it in the Acts? If we trust "Luke" wrote the Acts too then it counts and the Acts says he was around for 40 days. So G.Luke must be a 40 day time line or the author contradicts himself.

 

So what we have here is no agreement among the gospel authors to confirm your statement. How is it that you know this bit of information?

 

mwc

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. http://bible.cc/john/20-17.htm John 20:17

[Thumbelina]

How am I doing on the whole blasphemy thing?

Do I need to dial it up a bit or have I hit the point of no return yet?

 

Oh, you're a goner already!

 

Cooool

 

 

See, Agi is blaspheming by taking the place of God and saying you committed the unpardonable sin and you are doing it too, condemning yourself.

 

So this fantastically loving awesome omnipotent god of yours who instructs his followers to do things like turn the other cheek and do good to those who despitefully use you sets a fine example by eternally torturing people who mock him?

 

We, as humans, teach our children not to lash out at those who would mock them, but god gets to burn people for eternity for mocking him.

 

Wow. that's just awesome.

 

Eternal torture is a doctrine of demons. Some churches use it to scare gullible people to attend and some churches genuinely believe that but they still are not thinking straight and not rightly interpreting the bible.

[Thumbelina]

Believers can judge but righteously and they CANNOT judge a person's heart so I am not judging your heart just your words I'm hoping that your heart is still malleable and not hard like Pharaoh's.

 

But you're still judging.

 

My heart is still beating and in the right place, thank you. It is beating for the right woman to take it.

 

 

 

 

 

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33

 

 

Yeah? well I 'm sure you won't want a Jezebel.

[Thumbelina]

How is it that you know this bit of information?

Boy, you don't know your Bible, do you? The Holy Spirit told her. Of course he told something different to somebody else. He didn't say shit to you or me, so at least we weren't misinformed.

 

 

Boy, you don't know your Bible, do you? The Holy Spirit told her. ...

 

 

Dang right, brotha! http://bible.cc/1_john/2-20.htm ; http://bible.cc/matthew/11-25.htm Hey, while those verses are true, I am teasing you like I do Par and I used to do it to bdp too; you guys and your short and to the point replies

[Thumbelina]

So this fantastically loving awesome omnipotent god of yours who instructs his followers to do things like turn the other cheek and do good to those who despitefully use you sets a fine example by eternally torturing people who mock him?

 

We, as humans, teach our children not to lash out at those who would mock them, but god gets to burn people for eternity for mocking him.

 

Wow. that's just awesome.

 

Awesome, but not too cool. Hot as hell, though.

 

 

The Law of the king is immutable. No penalty for broken rules, no compliance to said rules.

[mwc]

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. http://bible.cc/john/20-17.htm John 20:17

And he goes ahead and does it when? You're just agreeing with me that he's not ascending anywhere.

 

mwc

[Thumbelina]

Jesus wants us to eat his body and drink his blood and he came back from the dead.

So he's a zombie vampire.

Christians worship zombie vampires.

I think both are evil.

So if someone see's Jesus, I recommend a stake and a bullet to the head.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: People used reasoning like that to inspire bigotry against Christians in the past. You are being a superficial reader. God's Law CANNOT be changed, the wages of sin is death. It was either Jesus or us. Jesus fulfilled the penalty for the law, he died as a human and His blood covers any willing believer.

 

 

 

People also have more morals than this supposed god.

He burns his children for eternity for apparently not following a note he left on the fridge of someone who re-wrote it, passed it down to someone else who re-wrote it who passed it on to someone else...

 

Thumbelina: The bible does not teach what you wrote. The HS convicts mankind of sin and He woos us. Illiterate people understand the bible when it is read to them http://bible.cc/psalms/119-130.htm ; http://bible.cc/matthew/11-25.htm . The key is to DILIGENTLY seek after truth http://bible.cc/hebrews/11-6.htm .

 

 

 

So why exactly do christians not burn their children when they say something wrong or do something wrong?

Ah yes, because they are somewhat sane maybe?

Too bad they worship a genocidal maniac.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Because God commands us to love. What if you have a little demon kid who tortures animals and eventually rapes his baby sister, will you pat him on the head and let him be?

 

 

 

Have I crossed the boundary yet or would this megalomaniac still find it in his murdering heart to forgive me?

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: I 'm not God but I can say this prayer for you ----> "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Satan succeeded in causing God to appear malevolent to some men .

[Thumbelina]

Have I crossed the boundary yet or would this megalomaniac still find it in his murdering heart to forgive me?

 

Is your heart still malleable?

Interesting that Merriam-Webster dictionary used this sentence to describe that word:

 

Examples of MALLEABLE

 

<the cult leader took advantage of the malleable, compliant personalities of his followers>

 

 

 

 

Tsk tsk Agi, it is fine to be malleable in the hands of a perfect being http://bible.cc/isaiah/64-8.htm. Isa 64:8. I look forward to being really tall instead of being small but I have to let God continue changing my heart which is what the verse is really referring to, He has to break me to remake me. In the hands of a cult leader this is what happens ---> http://bible.cc/jeremiah/17-5.htm Jer 17:5 People need to be checked by the Word.

[Noggy]

Thumbelina: People used reasoning like that to inspire bigotry against Christians in the past. You are being a superficial reader. God's Law CANNOT be changed, the wages of sin is death. It was either Jesus or us. Jesus fulfilled the penalty for the law, he died as a human and His blood covers any willing believer.

 

Have you ever pondered why a being that existed before everything else - mind you, that means he existed BEFORE evil and sin - would create those things? Have you ever wondered why the wages of sin is death? Have you ever wondered why blood is required to "free" you? Why would an omniscient all powerful being do something like that? Seems much more like a construct of primitive man then it does an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent superpower.

[Thumbelina]

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. http://bible.cc/john/7-24.htm

 

 

Believers can judge but righteously and they CANNOT judge a person's heart so I am not judging your heart just your words I'm hoping that your heart is still malleable and not hard like Pharaoh's.

That bit from G.John is "jesus" trying to justify healing someone on the Sabbath. He does this by comparing his "miracle" with circumcisions performed on the Sabbath. He says they are the same thing. Are they? Does the law (Torah) state anywhere that "healing" is part of some magical pact with YHWH? Circumcisions are mentioned. Sabbaths are mentioned. Magical healing? Not mentioned. Not the same. Nice try from old "jesus" but the Jews ain't buying.

 

They want to kill him. Probably for good reason. I guess now would be a good time to whip out a line about how everyone has broken the law. That should get him off the hook. Equivocation? That's something YHWH is into, right? "We all do these things so what's it matter?" Breaking the law in a good way? It's all good. And toss something about not judging what people do but the attitude in which they do it for good measure. Lesson taught and learned.

 

YHWH hardened anonymous Pharaoh's heart.

 

mwc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man looks at the outward but God looks at the heart http://bible.cc/1_samuel/16-7.htm . As i said before, Jesus looks at a person's motives. Those people had the wrong spirit, their acts were not motivated by love, they were quite ritualistic and not compassionate. Jesus was letting them know this --> John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? No human can keep the law perfectly, it can only be done through faith that worketh by love http://bible.cc/galatians/5-6.htm. In the OT David gave his men shewbread from the Holy temple and God did not punish him for it for David had a right motive, plus David was a type of Christ in many acted parables in the OT. This text gives some insight into that: Leviticus 22:10-11

10. There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing. 11. But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

 

 

 

The bible does not equivocate, John 3:16 sums it up! The bible is written like that partly to put a choice before the hearer, soft hearts are made wise unto salvation when they read it.

 

 

 

YHWH gave Pharaoh over to his (Pharaoh's) own evil inclinations which is what the texts mean!

[mwc]

Thumbelina: Because God commands us to love. What if you have a little demon kid who tortures animals and eventually rapes his baby sister, will you pat him on the head and let him be?

You mean like drowning all his pets in a flood and then getting some young virgin chick preggers so her kid can die?

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

Thumbelina: Because God commands us to love. What if you have a little demon kid who tortures animals and eventually rapes his baby sister, will you pat him on the head and let him be?

You mean like drowning all his pets in a flood and then getting some young virgin chick preggers so her kid can die?

 

mwc

And only because he planted a forbidden fruit in the garden he created, and made the humans dumb enough not to get his ambiguous commands. It's like what we're saying in software development circles: SISO - Shit In, Shit Out. God created shit. He got shit. And he's acting surprised.

[Thumbelina]

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. http://bible.cc/john/20-17.htm John 20:17

And he goes ahead and does it when? You're just agreeing with me that he's not ascending anywhere.

 

mwc

 

It is implied that He went that day (Mary was detaining Him from going, He was in a hurry) but it does not mean that He stayed there. Angels and Jesus move like the speed of light you know.

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina: People used reasoning like that to inspire bigotry against Christians in the past. You are being a superficial reader. God's Law CANNOT be changed, the wages of sin is death. It was either Jesus or us. Jesus fulfilled the penalty for the law, he died as a human and His blood covers any willing believer.

 

Have you ever pondered why a being that existed before everything else - mind you, that means he existed BEFORE evil and sin - would create those things? Have you ever wondered why the wages of sin is death? Have you ever wondered why blood is required to "free" you? Why would an omniscient all powerful being do something like that? Seems much more like a construct of primitive man then it does an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent superpower.

 

 

Hey, derpy derp

I always ponder those themes. God created calamity and not law breaking, His creatures had freedom of CHOICE. God laying down His life for man is a paradox that works.

[Margee]

The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin. People who have committed that sin have calluses on their ears (spiritually speaking) and they tend not to worry about their salvation, they just don't care. N.B. it is hard for a human to know if someone reached that point.

 

 

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone of you who participated in this post. I have been following it.

I'd like to address our dear biblical scholar Thumb.

 

You say: ''The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin."

 

Thumb - Read my post over. I am not worried. I know I am 'fried'. I have continually grieved our friend -the holy spirit.

 

You say: Ultimately, blaspheming the HS can be a continual process of grieving away the HS because a person REFUSES to listen and hardens their heart when truth is presented to them, like what Pharaoh did'' .

 

If you truly knew your bible, you would clearly see that our wonderful god is who 'hardened' Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 14: Hardening Pharaoh's Heart

Verses 8

Then the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt and he pursued after the Israelites, although the Israelites were going out boldly.

 

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina: Because God commands us to love. What if you have a little demon kid who tortures animals and eventually rapes his baby sister, will you pat him on the head and let him be?

You mean like drowning all his pets in a flood and then getting some young virgin chick preggers so her kid can die?

 

mwc

 

The pets went back to dust, God will create a new earth with lots of pets. Mary did not complain, she actually sang a song praising God, she had the greatest honor. Yeah Jesus died but He is risen.

[Noggy]

Thumbelina: People used reasoning like that to inspire bigotry against Christians in the past. You are being a superficial reader. God's Law CANNOT be changed, the wages of sin is death. It was either Jesus or us. Jesus fulfilled the penalty for the law, he died as a human and His blood covers any willing believer.

 

Have you ever pondered why a being that existed before everything else - mind you, that means he existed BEFORE evil and sin - would create those things? Have you ever wondered why the wages of sin is death? Have you ever wondered why blood is required to "free" you? Why would an omniscient all powerful being do something like that? Seems much more like a construct of primitive man then it does an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent superpower.

 

 

Hey, derpy derp

I always ponder those themes. God created calamity and not law breaking, His creatures had freedom of CHOICE. God laying down His life for man is a paradox that works.

 

 

He didn't create law breaking, but he did create the laws.

 

You still haven't explained why a perfect God would desire blood to cleanse sin. If God created everything then he created the fact that the wages of sin is death. Why would he do that? Why are the wages of sin not a time out? Or life imprisonment? But no, the wages of sin, (the law that your loving god created) is ETERNAL HELLFIRE.

 

You also purport free will, but nowhere in the bible does it say free will exists. In fact, it says God knows everything we are going to do before we do it. That doesn't seem like free will at all.

[florduh]

Thumbelina, apparently only you and those who agree with you doctrinally have the HS and therefore the correct interpretation of Scripture. The implication is that the other believers aren't True Christians like yourself, since they obviously lack the HS to guide them to the same conclusions you have reached. Do you realize that those who are in doctrinal disagreement with you also say with conviction that you are the one who has it wrong? Can't you understand that the Bible is open to diverse interpretation, and everyone who has an interpretation claims divine guidance resulting from prayerful study of the texts? Yet, you see no possibility that you could have some things wrong because you claim the HS, just like the others. Does that make any sense?

[Thumbelina]

The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin. People who have committed that sin have calluses on their ears (spiritually speaking) and they tend not to worry about their salvation, they just don't care. N.B. it is hard for a human to know if someone reached that point.

 

 

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone of you who participated in this post. I have been following it.

I'd like to address our dear biblical scholar Thumb.

 

You say: ''The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin."

 

Thumb - Read my post over. I am not worried. I know I am 'fried'. I have continually grieved our friend -the holy spirit.

 

You say: Ultimately, blaspheming the HS can be a continual process of grieving away the HS because a person REFUSES to listen and hardens their heart when truth is presented to them, like what Pharaoh did'' .

 

If you truly knew your bible, you would clearly see that our wonderful god is who 'hardened' Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 14: Hardening Pharaoh's Heart

Verses 8

Then the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt and he pursued after the Israelites, although the Israelites were going out boldly.

 

 

 

I wish I were a scholar, I just understand the gospel/good news. You sure are pessimistic. I respectfully disagree with you, people who commit the unpardonable sin tend not to know when they did or that they did it. If you knew how to read the bible rightly, you would read the cross references (in the margin in some bibles) and see that God gives people over to what they want to do ; He pleads with them and His pleading softens some people and HARDENS others.

[Margee]

The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin. People who have committed that sin have calluses on their ears (spiritually speaking) and they tend not to worry about their salvation, they just don't care. N.B. it is hard for a human to know if someone reached that point.

 

 

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone of you who participated in this post. I have been following it.

I'd like to address our dear biblical scholar Thumb.

 

You say: ''The fact that the OP is worried about committing the unpardonable sin is probably indicative that they did NOT commit that sin."

 

Thumb - Read my post over. I am not worried. I know I am 'fried'. I have continually grieved our friend -the holy spirit.

 

You say: Ultimately, blaspheming the HS can be a continual process of grieving away the HS because a person REFUSES to listen and hardens their heart when truth is presented to them, like what Pharaoh did'' .

 

If you truly knew your bible, you would clearly see that our wonderful god is who 'hardened' Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 14: Hardening Pharaoh's Heart

Verses 8

Then the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt and he pursued after the Israelites, although the Israelites were going out boldly.

 

 

 

I wish I were a scholar, I just understand the gospel/good news. You sure are pessimistic. I respectfully disagree with you, people who commit the unpardonable sin tend not to know when they did or that they did it. If you knew how to read the bible rightly, you would read the cross references (in the margin in some bibles) and see that God gives people over to what they want to do ; He pleads with them and His pleading softens some people and HARDENS others.

 

You make no sense Thumb! I do say this in a nice way. I'm still a pessimist !! Convince me better than this explanation you gave me. What about god hardening Pharaohs heart? .

You didn't mention that point I brought up. Help me here - cause I don't have the holy spirit to guide me anymore, and I'm still just as confused, even after I studied the bible for 35 years!!

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina: People used reasoning like that to inspire bigotry against Christians in the past. You are being a superficial reader. God's Law CANNOT be changed, the wages of sin is death. It was either Jesus or us. Jesus fulfilled the penalty for the law, he died as a human and His blood covers any willing believer.

 

Have you ever pondered why a being that existed before everything else - mind you, that means he existed BEFORE evil and sin - would create those things? Have you ever wondered why the wages of sin is death? Have you ever wondered why blood is required to "free" you? Why would an omniscient all powerful being do something like that? Seems much more like a construct of primitive man then it does an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent superpower.

 

 

Hey, derpy derp

I always ponder those themes. God created calamity and not law breaking, His creatures had freedom of CHOICE. God laying down His life for man is a paradox that works.

 

 

He didn't create law breaking, but he did create the laws.

 

You still haven't explained why a perfect God would desire blood to cleanse sin. If God created everything then he created the fact that the wages of sin is death. Why would he do that? Why are the wages of sin not a time out? Or life imprisonment? But no, the wages of sin, (the law that your loving god created) is ETERNAL HELLFIRE.

 

You also purport free will, but nowhere in the bible does it say free will exists. In fact, it says God knows everything we are going to do before we do it. That doesn't seem like free will at all.

 

 

What is wrong with the laws? Read Exodus 20.

 

Blood represents life, the life is in the blood http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/12-23.htm The bible teaches all of those concepts and it explains why God did what He did. In ancient culture, people understood those concepts; we have to place ourselves there and not look at it with a 21st century mind. The blood is symbolic for death which is the WAGE of sin. You did not read what I wrote in a few posts back? The rebels were not and will not be repentant , if God does not kill them (not keep them alive roasting forever) they will be unhappy and they will make others' lives miserable too because they HATE God's laws.

 

I said freedom of CHOICE. I looked up a definition for free will a while back and it seems to imply that free will means living without laws and penalties so now I prefer to use "Freedom of CHOICE".

Freedom of choice is stated in the bible: 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:16-17

 

Do they want to live in bliss AND obedience or do they want to die and not exist any more? Knowing someone is going to do something beforehand does not mean that a being is causing it.