How Have You Changed?

[Margee]

I posted a quote this morning by George Byron..''I am not now - That which I have been''.....

I am not the same person today that I used to be. I have done a lot of changing in the past five years. I suppose mostly it would still be in my 'thinking', so maybe a lot of people wouldn't even see the difference. I was out last night with a good gang of god believers. They are good people.They are not Fundy's, but they talk a lot about god and how god interacts in their lives. I don't say a word. I sit back and observe. This is definitely one way I have changed. I used to love to get in all the 'debates' and throw my opinions in, but now, (as much as you might find this hard to believe, Lol) I have become much quieter. I know they notice because they ask: 'Margee, is anything wrong?''

 

I have become much more assertive with all the 'people pleasing' bullshit and I have the ability to say, 'no' more often now, without tons of guilt enveloping me. I still suffer to a certain degree, but not like how it used to be. I've become a little 'harder' in some aspects and yet, I am still a very sensitive personality. My friends have noticed that I have become much more of a 'hermit' than years gone by. I don't like all the 'noise' of the world, so in a lot of ways - I have become a bit of a 'recluse.'

 

I have changed so much that if my 'new' thinking ever took over my life and if I put it in 'action' - I would change a lot of things, (including moving away from my home town) but to do that, I would end up hurting too many people.

 

In what ways, would your friends and family say you have changed since your deconversion? Is there one or two obvious things that ''you used to be and are now not'', besides disagreeing with the christian debate out loud?

 

Besides not going to church anymore - how would the world know that you are not a christian with all the threat of punishment hanging over your head?

[florduh]

...how would the world know that you are not a christian...

They don't, unless it comes up in conversation - which it usually doesn't.

[R. S. Martin]

How have I personally changed? I really don't know if I can attribute any outward changes to deconversion. When I left my horse and buggy community I made a few outward changes. Leaving that community was the most drastic part of my deconversion. But I spent another ten years inside religion. If we mark deconversion from the day we stopped believing in God, then leaving the horse and buggy community was not deconversion. It plunged me into an identity crisis of major proportions and set me on a course of culture shock from which I have not yet fully emerged. Dealing with all that on top of a family's and community's rage and continued shunning (because I left their faith) forces a person to either grow in character or go under.

 

The initial euphoria of leaving carried me through the first six months of the roughest times. I had enrolled in university as a means to improve my quality of life. This was so satisfying, and I had developed a community of sufficient support at the university, that I was able to survive. But it was rough and required all the resources I could muster. Obviously, I came out of that university a different person than I went in. But I still considered myself a Christian because I had not yet done enough research to be confident that there is no God.

 

It took five years of battling the politics of two masters programs in religious studies and theology before I felt I had done a thorough enough search for the invisible and imperceptible supernatural forces across time, culture, and geography. It was only then that I could deconvert. As you can imagine, I was emotionally and intellectually exhausted. But, as anyone can guess, I was a changed person from when I had left the horse and buggy community ten years earlier.

 

I continue to change and grow. I don't think deconversion per se had much to do with it in my case. It was just part of the process of tightening my integrity--the goal I had been working toward all those years in school.

[smellincoffee]

First, I lost the misery, despair, and anger I lived under while as a Pentecostal. I found meaning, purpose, and hope in humanism, and freethought made me a strong and independent thinker. I have only grown in the years since. I learned to take charge of my life, and I continue to live to the fullest today.

[R. S. Martin]

The only way the world knows I'm not a Christian is if I tell them or they connect me with the local atheist activities.

[Roxie]

Well, besides the horns and tail I have sprouted since deconverting...(just kidding!)

 

How would any of us know who's a christian or not unless they advertise it? Most people I know are either nice and moral people and others are not. I don't believe christianity has any bearing on their personality. Some of the biggest liars, adulterers, criminals and wife/children beaters are, in fact, christian.

 

I have a friend, I'll call her Jan, who's from Connecticut (and knows I am not a christian) and whose brother married a woman, I'll call her Karen, from England and her brother moved to England after the marriage (lucky bastard). Jan invited me and one of our christian friends, I'll call Leslie, over to meet her brother and Karen who were visiting from the UK.

 

Karen commented on the vast number of churches and mega-churches in the area. "Why so many churches?" she asked. I told her that there was big money to be made being the preacher of a mega-church. She couldn't believe people actually made money off of the churches.

 

Karen got a real kick out of Leslie and me with our Southern accents and all. When Leslie had left the room momentarily, Karen said to me that Leslie and I would be great fun at a pub. I told Karen that we didn't have pubs down here (like she thought of) and besides, Leslie would never go to one because she was christian.

 

Two years later, Karen was once again visiting. I had called Jan, who wasn't home and ended up talking to Karen. I had asked about her trip, etc.

 

Jan called me back and said that Karen had told her what a "nice" person I was, but that she knew why I was so nice, it was because I was christian.

 

Jan, after choking on her coffee, said, "No, she's nice because she's nice. She's not a christian." Jan said Karen was "blown away" (her words). Karen was convinced that I was "nice" because I was a christian

 

My point is, unless you wear an "A" emblazoned on your shirt, how would anyone know? I suspect you are "quiet" due to a lot of time spent in retrospect. Trying to sort out your feelings. I suspect you are more assertive because you don't have that hell fire and damnation hanging over your head.

 

Living in your hometown along with people (family) who know you are not attending church, is a tough one. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

 

But, I am the same person now as I was before I deconverted. I just have a lot of extra spare time that was once consumed by the church.

[DesertBob]

I have changed so much that if my 'new' thinking ever took over my life and if I put it in 'action' - I would change a lot of things, (including moving away from my home town) but to do that, I would end up hurting too many people.

Margee, I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that this is about the fifth time I've noticed you saying this. Perhaps you are discounting your importance in this equation.

 

My fiancee and I are debating where to live when her youngest goes to college next fall. Her children's biological father lives a mile down the road from here, and so there is somewhat of a pull to remain here in this community so that the kids have a familiar place to come home to, and so that they will not have to make a stark choice each time they have a chance to go home, which home to go to. Over against this is the fact that she has been an uncomfortable fish out of water in this town for two decades, remaining here so that her children could have a stable home / education and so that they had a father in their lives. In truth, she hates it here; she landed here due to a temporary job and ended up staying. This place starves her spirit. With the kids off to college and basically launched, she has asked herself, what does she really owe her kids, considering that she's starving for the eclectic, stimulating environment she needs and craves? And she's decided, she's lived for others enough ... in whatever years she has left, she's going to give much more weight to her own needs. Her tip of the hat to her kids (and mine) is that we'll live someplace they'd find attractive to visit.

 

Maybe you are on the cusp of a similar life passage. Just food for thought, for whatever it's worth. What do you really owe all these people you don't want to "hurt"? Is it really important enough to go to your grave unfulfilled?

In what ways, would your friends and family say you have changed since your deconversion? Is there one or two obvious things that ''you used to be and are now not'', besides disagreeing with the christian debate out loud?

 

Besides not going to church anymore - how would the world know that you are not a christian with all the threat of punishment hanging over your head?

I don't even recognize my life compared to what I envisioned for it, and so much of it is because of experiences other than my deconversion that it's hard to tease it all apart. Most fundamentally, I used to consider life a rational, compelling proposition and now I most certainly don't. Christianity was nothing more than one of the metaphorical shims and adapters I used to shore up the gap between what I feel life could / should be and what it actually is. Now that I am, as we say in the computer field, running against the bare metal, without intervening layers of middleware (or at least I sincerely hope so ... it's possible that the layers of middleware are interminable and I simply haven't recognized the next layer that needs stripping ... and if so, I probably lack the energy to screw with it any further) I would say that leaving the church was mostly an exercise in taking personal responsibility for my own beliefs and not looking for cover, so to speak, from a shared belief system. So the main change I would attribute to leaving the faith was that I now accept full responsibility for, and fully own, my own beliefs and trust my own perceptions. Christianity did not give me either the ownership or the permission and now I've taken them for myself.

[Ro-bear]

I hope I've changed a lot; I was twelve when I decided it was B.S. It's been forty years, and a lot has happened, of course.

[xandermac]

I take up for myself more. It used to be when someone hurt my feelings I would pray for them,now I speak my mind right then and there.

I don't sit around waiting for god to change a situation anymore.

I don't fear my death anymore.

My politics changed.

I began to read more so I think my IQ went up a bit.

I don't have to love people that have hurt me anymore and I've let them go.

The person that came to these boards 5 years ago has definitely changed and still changing.

[buffettphan]

Ditto what Roxie said.

 

I'm really not that much different -- still the same ol' fun-loving, wise-cracking, good-at-heart girl I've always been.

(Well -- other than my age! I always had doubts, even as a 5-year old. I was in high school when I figured out it was all total BS based on ancient myths.)

 

Here's a funny story to illustrate what I mean. Living in the bible belt, it is assumed you are christian. Last year while christmas shopping, a cashier gave me $20 too much in change. I gave her back the extra money. She then went on and on about what a good christian woman I was... blah blah blah. Finally when she shut up long enough, I just shrugged my shoulders, gave her my sweetest smile, and said, "Nope, I'm an atheist. Happy Holidays." You could've heard a pin drop.

 

When people find out that I'm an atheist they are shocked because I am "too nice" to be an atheist.

 

I guess I am probably a bit more relaxed about life in general than most people (christians) I know in RL because I'm not afraid of their boogeyman. Knowing that biblegod and all the surrounding myths are nothing but BS does that for a person.

[Margee]

I have changed so much that if my 'new' thinking ever took over my life and if I put it in 'action' - I would change a lot of things, (including moving away from my home town) but to do that, I would end up hurting too many people.

Margee, I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that this is about the fifth time I've noticed you saying this. Perhaps you are discounting your importance in this equation.

 

Maybe you are on the cusp of a similar life passage. Just food for thought, for whatever it's worth. What do you really owe all these people you don't want to "hurt"? Is it really important enough to go to your grave unfulfilled?

 

DesertBob - Thank you for noticing this. You are right. I keep putting up different posts with the same damn question in behind each one. Yes, I am screaming inside and just can't think about how to make some life changes without everyone thinking I have lost my fucking mind. The christian or even the humanitarian thing to do, is to 'stay put', 'don't rock the boat' or the old rule of... 'you must support the tribe'............... is always there to frustrate me. It took me so long to understand who I really am and what I want.... Maybe I just need to 'shut up' and learn to live and be happy with the life that I have.. .......make the best out of it - which I do try to do...........

How to make changes without looking like a total selfish human being??That's probably what my question really is....... Maybe this is what my dilemma is, I have become more 'selfish' as a non-christian..........this is how I have changed and I don't quite know what to do with this new bit of 'freedom'.

Of course, I do not want to become completely self centered and that is why I still do consider everyone in my life......

[DesertBob]

DesertBob - Thank you for noticing this. You are right. I keep putting up different posts with the same damn question in behind each one. Yes, I am screaming inside and just can't think about how to make some life changes without everyone thinking I have lost my fucking mind. The christian or even the humanitarian thing to do, is to 'stay put', 'don't rock the boat' or the old rule of... 'you must support the tribe'............... is always there to frustrate me. It took me so long to understand who I really am and what I want.... Maybe I just need to 'shut up' and learn to live and be happy with the life that I have.. .......make the best out of it - which I do try to do...........

How to make changes without looking like a total sefish human being??That's probably what my question really is.......

Well I don't know the specifics of your situation of course but listen to yourself. "How to make changes without looking like a total selfish human being" tells me that you (1) know you're not selfish and (2) others will beg to differ in no uncertain terms and (3) you hate the very idea of (2). So (2) is holding you in place.

 

Ask yourself this: how genuine will everyone's high dudgeon be? Or is it just there precisely to control you and bind you to them in ways that are, maybe, advantageous for them but unhealthy for you?

 

In truth, what's unhealthy for you is probably doing them no favors, either.

 

I passed through a decision tree like this when leaving my first wife. Her perceptions, and the demands and expectations of my faith, were what kept me (and my children!) in an unhealthy, dysfunctional, and for me, abusive relationship for about 14.5 years longer than it needed to.

 

When I left, there was much hoo-raw and rage but eventually my wife got the psychological help she would never willingly submit to with my unwitting enablement, my kids got a 1000% better rest of their childhood, and I was, if perennially still unhappy, at least much less UN happy.

 

I'm here to tell you, quit caring what you LOOK LIKE and care more about what you ARE.

[Vigile]

I started questioning everything else I'd ever been taught or had just merely assumed as well. It's been so long now I'm growing a bit weary and just want to make the best of every day and live in the now as much as is reasonable and possible.

 

On what xians would likely consider a bit of an 'aha!' I was quite caring about my fellow humans, even if for misguided reasons, when I believed. I still maintain strong moral feelings about human rights, et al, but I can't look at a stranger and feel a twinge of brotherly love in my heart like I genuinely did when I still believed. I don't know why, but perhaps it's as simple/complex as a change of brain structure and chemicals as I my brain fully matured. I was quite enthusiastically emotional about ideas when I was young and my emotions evened out as I grew older.

[agnosticator]

How have I changed? I am much more accepting of other people and their perspectives. I don't think about my "duty" to change them. I also picked up where I left off before my "christian experience", and will go out to visit the rest of the world I already haven't seen. This is a result of opening my mind to the real world. But my personality and character haven't changed. Just the fear of having the wrong thoughts and being a worthless worm without Jesus!

 

After reading the thread, it seems that you need to find a balance between what you want for yourself and how to live with others in your life. Religion dictated it for you, but now you'll have to figure it out yourself. I think you can because you care, and have a good head on your shoulders! Your feeling selfish if you do what you really want is just residual christian guilt. You may have thought God wanted you to be a people pleaser at your expense. But who am I to judge? I'm just guessing.

[Deva]

Its nice to be able more to see others as they actually are, and not immediately judge them as "sinners" until proven otherwise.

 

For me, it was impossible to get past the idea that human beings are totally depraved and sinful until I threw the whole mess out (which means not until I was past 40). This idea really messed me up, but overall I think I am finally making progress in my relations with others. Maybe now I am looking more people in the eye and am able to genuinely see them as people, not objects.

 

I am definitely happier, no matter what outward circumstances happen to me. Giving up the idea of an all powerful being who could condemn me forever was a great move.

[Margee]

After reading the thread, it seems that you need to find a balance between what you want for yourself and how to live with others in your life. Religion dictated it for you, but now you'll have to figure it out yourself. I think you can because you care, and have a good head on your shoulders! Your feeling selfish if you do what you really want is just residual christian guilt. You may have thought God wanted you to be a people pleaser at your expense. But who am I to judge? I'm just guessing.

 

Ag, you're right on..... I think one of the hardest parts of my deconversion in the past few months has been un-learning all the years of pleasing god, loving thine enemy, blah, blah, blah......... I know I am a good, kind loving person - and I want to remain that - but I am definitely learning that I have 'limits' on how patient, giving, and 'putting up with'...that I need to practice anymore.I don't know where to draw the line. When I 'served the lord' - I did a lot of 'care taking' with resentment, but thought that I would be pleasing to god. (dumb, I know!) I'm just not sure where the boundaries are between self-centeredness and humbly, being unselfish are anymore.

[Vomit Comet]

I'm much less neurotic and headfucked. Getting laid helped a lot! It was the best thing that ever happened to my mental health, and I'm not even making that up. I just now and then wish I could've fucked around some more before settling down, but it's all good in the hood.

 

I've gotten less personally altruistic but more politically left wing, if that makes any sense.

 

I'm also relishing in my freedom to be my nasty self. Although all that self-repression made me nastier than I am now. All the fucked up songs I wrote prior to deconverting are superior in their fucked-upedness to anything I'm able to write now.

 

I kind of had a double life when it came to my art. Now that I don't have to lead a double life anymore, the can was opened and most the pressure dissipated, I guess. Also, people used to say things to me like "dude, you need help" and I would laugh in their face and say "too late, they tried!", but then someone would say "dude, you need to get laid", and I would fly into a homicidal rage.

 

When I finally did get laid, I realized those fuckers were right! It totally took the edge off. I became as tranquil as a Zen monk or something. The novelty eventually wore off, but I was never quite the same. Still, fuckin' did far more to soothe my soul than Jebus ever did.

[hereticzero]

I feel more connected to the universe and to this planet. I am more tolerant of other beliefs--unless they've come over to preach. I accept people as they want to be accepted. I help people out more in my part of the world with groceries, rent, whatever I can help with. i drink more, cuss more, but I enjoy life more too.

[espresso]

After reading the thread, it seems that you need to find a balance between what you want for yourself and how to live with others in your life. Religion dictated it for you, but now you'll have to figure it out yourself. I think you can because you care, and have a good head on your shoulders! Your feeling selfish if you do what you really want is just residual christian guilt. You may have thought God wanted you to be a people pleaser at your expense. But who am I to judge? I'm just guessing.

 

Ag, you're right on..... I think one of the hardest parts of my deconversion in the past few months has been un-learning all the years of pleasing god, loving thine enemy, blah, blah, blah......... I know I am a good, kind loving person - and I want to remain that - but I am definitely learning that I have 'limits' on how patient, giving, and 'putting up with'...that I need to practice anymore.I don't know where to draw the line. When I 'served the lord' - I did a lot of 'care taking' with resentment, but thought that I would be pleasing to god. (dumb, I know!) I'm just not sure where the boundaries are between self-centeredness and humbly, being unselfish are anymore.

 

Hmmmm, I see three main things here: your definition of selfish vs. unselfish, your desire for balance, and your existing interpersonal relationships.

 

I view selfish and unselfish acts as inextricably intertwined, where it seems you see them as opposites. Maybe if you tried writing down what was selfish in your "unselfish" urges, and what was unselfish in your "selfish" urges, you would be able to better define what you want your ideal balance to look like. For instance, when my younger brother asked me for a ride to work because his car broke down, I got up early and went way out of my way to drive him. Is it unselfish? Yeah, it's a pain in the neck and he could've taken the bus. Is it selfish? Hell yeah. I like the thought of being the older sister who takes care of her younger brothers even though we're adults, and I like it so much that I am eager for the chance to help. Now, if he wanted a ride every day, then he would need to take the bus!

 

As someone who is looking for balance like you, and has fairly recently discovered my own "backbone", maybe this will help. My concept of the balance that I was aiming for originally was too rigid--like the "boundaries" you mention--too clear-cut. In reality, balance is fluid and is never in the same spot twice. You can't always be the same person because you will be feeling differently from moment to moment, based on things like when you had your last meal and what it was that you ate! With this definition in mind, balance seems a lot more achievable! When I was in high school I briefly tried yoga as a gym class option. I could not even stand in tree pose for a few seconds because I was trying to lock my knees and stay perfectly still. Doing yoga now, my tree pose is great. It's because of something one of my videos said, about welcoming the "slight oscillations from your center" that made sense to me. The center, for me, is something I learn to recognize amidst the slight swaying of my natural rhythm rather than a stationary point. At the end of the day, when I tally what sort of person I was, I can look at all the bad/unhealthy/insufficient things I did and determine to do better the next day, and that's where it ends. I don't need to try to make up for them the next day, with the "rollover" shame dragging me down as a "sin" on my conscience.

 

Based on the history of my relationship with a person, I am a coward with one and a lion with another. It's very hard to break out of the interpersonal roles we are used to. I have found it impossible in some cases, and ridiculously difficult in others. Every relationship is unique and there is no one right spot to be in that applies to all of them. I think the best thing (since you probably don't want to drop most of your old friends) is to find new friends who only know the new you, and strengthen your personality through interactions with them. That way you can feel the release of being honest when you feel discouraged about how slowly your old relationship dynamics seem to change.

 

I hope this helped! I always enjoy your posts.

[Galien]

I am no longer a doormat for anyone, I have learned how to think about myself instead of everyone else, I am no longer wracked with guilt but still have a lot of shame to root out of my psyche, if I ever do. I have sex, where I didn't before if I was single.

 

I now direct my anger outward instead of inward which has helped my depression a lot. Now people are at times confronted with my primal fury, it kinda scares them hehe. I swear like a trooper

 

I stopped doing things out of duty or obligation or social expectation. Now I only do things if I want to.

 

I stopped hanging around people who I had called friends when I realised how one sided those relationships were.

 

Did I mention the sex part

[Randi]

I'm much more forthcoming about my views on certain things. I'm also more open about my AIS, even the embarrassing details. Most importantly, I have sex! I have guilt free, shame free SEX. And you know what? I'm still glad I waited until I was nearly 28. I'm also a lot more fun on a Saturday night because I don't have to be up at the buttcrack of dawn to serve his invisble majesty.

[kazza]

I deconverted 3 years ago after 32 years in xianity, and in a nutshell - i am happier, more at peace and i feel free, free at last, free at last thank my brain i'm free at last! :0)

[chosendarkness]

I'm more open-minded and I don't think I know everything like I used too. I was sure I had it all figured out in fundamentalism, and everyone who disagreed was wrong (and going to hell). I've gained some honesty and humility.

[Margee]

After reading the thread, it seems that you need to find a balance between what you want for yourself and how to live with others in your life. Religion dictated it for you, but now you'll have to figure it out yourself. I think you can because you care, and have a good head on your shoulders! Your feeling selfish if you do what you really want is just residual christian guilt. You may have thought God wanted you to be a people pleaser at your expense. But who am I to judge? I'm just guessing.

 

Ag, you're right on..... I think one of the hardest parts of my deconversion in the past few months has been un-learning all the years of pleasing god, loving thine enemy, blah, blah, blah......... I know I am a good, kind loving person - and I want to remain that - but I am definitely learning that I have 'limits' on how patient, giving, and 'putting up with'...that I need to practice anymore.I don't know where to draw the line. When I 'served the lord' - I did a lot of 'care taking' with resentment, but thought that I would be pleasing to god. (dumb, I know!) I'm just not sure where the boundaries are between self-centeredness and humbly, being unselfish are anymore.

 

Hmmmm, I see three main things here: your definition of selfish vs. unselfish, your desire for balance, and your existing interpersonal relationships.

 

I view selfish and unselfish acts as inextricably intertwined, where it seems you see them as opposites. Maybe if you tried writing down what was selfish in your "unselfish" urges, and what was unselfish in your "selfish" urges, you would be able to better define what you want your ideal balance to look like. For instance, when my younger brother asked me for a ride to work because his car broke down, I got up early and went way out of my way to drive him. Is it unselfish? Yeah, it's a pain in the neck and he could've taken the bus. Is it selfish? Hell yeah. I like the thought of being the older sister who takes care of her younger brothers even though we're adults, and I like it so much that I am eager for the chance to help. Now, if he wanted a ride every day, then he would need to take the bus!

 

As someone who is looking for balance like you, and has fairly recently discovered my own "backbone", maybe this will help. My concept of the balance that I was aiming for originally was too rigid--like the "boundaries" you mention--too clear-cut. In reality, balance is fluid and is never in the same spot twice. You can't always be the same person because you will be feeling differently from moment to moment, based on things like when you had your last meal and what it was that you ate! With this definition in mind, balance seems a lot more achievable! When I was in high school I briefly tried yoga as a gym class option. I could not even stand in tree pose for a few seconds because I was trying to lock my knees and stay perfectly still. Doing yoga now, my tree pose is great. It's because of something one of my videos said, about welcoming the "slight oscillations from your center" that made sense to me. The center, for me, is something I learn to recognize amidst the slight swaying of my natural rhythm rather than a stationary point. At the end of the day, when I tally what sort of person I was, I can look at all the bad/unhealthy/insufficient things I did and determine to do better the next day, and that's where it ends. I don't need to try to make up for them the next day, with the "rollover" shame dragging me down as a "sin" on my conscience.

 

Based on the history of my relationship with a person, I am a coward with one and a lion with another. It's very hard to break out of the interpersonal roles we are used to. I have found it impossible in some cases, and ridiculously difficult in others. Every relationship is unique and there is no one right spot to be in that applies to all of them. I think the best thing (since you probably don't want to drop most of your old friends) is to find new friends who only know the new you, and strengthen your personality through interactions with them. That way you can feel the release of being honest when you feel discouraged about how slowly your old relationship dynamics seem to change.

 

I hope this helped! I always enjoy your posts.

 

thank you so much espresso - that really did help. Thanks for caring......It's very aprreciated.

[Margee]

I swear like a trooper

 

 

 

Galien, I'd like to have a fun contest with you to see who could outdo for the foul language!

 

But I can still act like a lady when I have to!!

 

P.S. Do you really have sex now ? You naughty girl.................