question for christians: hows this a loving god?

[Guest Guest]

Give one example of where God killed anyone who wasn't either being wicked, transgressing his laws, or doing something wrong?

 

According to bible authors, god made David's infant son SUFFER for a week before allowing his death in order to punish David. Even though the bible says in Deuteronomy 24, the following:

 

16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

 

 

But, we could open up a whole nother barrel of monkeys there because other scriptures say OPPOSITE

[Vixentrox]

How about the thousands of people god killed because...David I belive it was took a cencus? How about the dude that that was struck dead for trying to catch the Ark of the Coveneant from falling? BTW...sure is nice that your loving god feels justified in killing the babies several generations removed from wrong doers. So much for free will....dammed to die because of your ancestors.

[daniel_1012]

Why do I have too pm you too get an answer too my question?

I want too discuss this with a lot of people. What goods a debate with just one person.

Excuses excuses excuses you just do not know the damn answer and don’t want too admit it. Why do I have too have a personal relationship too hear someone’s damn opinion.  That would kill the topic. I don’t mind hearing exchristian and Christians give their opinions if you don’t like too hear that go too a Christian group.

 

 

Well, you don't have to do anything.  However, it's not that I don't have the answer... it's that even if I did, you don't want it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Willybilly,

 

I find the best way to get an unbias, uninterupted viewpoint for a Christian... is to PM them.  That is, if you are looking for that sort of thing.  I mean, I'm sure anyone of those you see posting here you observe to be Christian would try and answer your questions as best they could in a PM, or otherwise personal contact.

 

Of course, if you want to post it here as a topic that is perfectly fine too... but don't think that a Christian here would not be accepting of your question in a personal level.  I'm sure myself, or another would do their best to get to know you and help you on un-restricted ground.

 

-Dan

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[daniel_1012]

Ignore the above.

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Well, you don't have to do anything. However, it's not that I don't have the answer... it's that even if I did, you don't want it.

[Asimov]

Ignore the above.

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Well, you don't have to do anything.  However, it's not that I don't have the answer... it's that even if I did, you don't want it.

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daniel_1012, it's not that I don't have the answer...it's that even if I did, you don't want it.

[Dio]

The Bible clearly want us to believe God is full of love, that he is the definition of love and mercy.

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Absolutely. But not always.

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How so? Who doesn't he love?

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Han, what about Rom 9:13 "Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Or is this another example of the Bible saying one thing but meaning another?

[Asuryan]

God says in Leviticus that children can pay for the sins of their fathers.  Their fathers were not rebelling against Pharaoh for persecuting the Israelites, so they paid the price.

 

Funny... last time I checked, it was god who decided to harden the pharaoh's heart.

To self-glorify himself. If god exists, he does have some serious self-confidence issues.

Proof? Here. From hexodus.

11:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.

11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and he LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

So, God punished the egyptian children for a pharaoh's crime... a crime that god caused with his direct intervention.

 

This was my first point. Second point:

If a child is 2 years old... and her father goes out and kills 10 people in a murdering frenzy... would you find it just and righteous if the judge sentenced the 2 years old child to death, and let the father go free?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.

 

Animals are here for us and for god. 

 

I seem to remember that god exterminates all animals on earth during the flood, but after the flood ends he regrets his decision. I thought that he was perfect?

Anyway, how did the extermination of all animals on earth (exception made for 2 members of each race) please god, or suited his needs? He only wanted to punish *humans* for their actions, animals were innocent, he could've devised a way to punish humans only, he'd rather exterminate billions of beasts. Bloodthirsty...

 

They resisted God's will.  If they surrendered, they were spared.

 

So if the Vatican attacked America, demanding that you surrender or face god's wrath, and you were in charge of the american army, would you surrender?

Just because a guy with a different religion than yours told you so?

[willybilly30]

You are probably right. Your answers probably going to be some catch phrase or reason I have heard a billion times anyway. It always is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ignore the above.

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Well, you don't have to do anything.  However, it's not that I don't have the answer... it's that even if I did, you don't want it.

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[thomas]

 

What part of this don't you get.  Free will, not pre-determinism.

 

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I am sorry TruthofChrist, but you are the one that doesn't get it. Is your god a powerful mighty creator? Did your god know the future before he created this world?

 

Be careful before you give an answer!!!!!!

 

Also note, that knowledge and power makes a person responsible. Think about this:

 

Imagine that you by accident gets some information indicating that a terrorist attack is going to happen. And imagine, that you have the power to prevent the attack, but you do nothing about it.

 

Won't it then be fair to say, that you share (at least some of) the responsiblity for the attack?

[mwc]

No its gods problem for creating people he knew would be wicked.

Oh, yes he gives a choice choose me or burn in hell. What a great choice

 

What part of this don't you get. Free will, not pre-determinism. It's like creating an artificially intelligent computer program that is totally capable of it's own thoughts. The programmer gives it total free will. If it decides to start turning on and off traffic lights because it thinks that's funny, then we unplug it (killing it) and don't feel bad for a second. What's the difference?

What part of this do you not get?

 

Free will vs. pre-determinism:

 

Free will is not simply good vs. evil. Now I know that all xians seem to think in these black and white terms but let's see if I can give you a different way of looking at this issue. Okay, it's time for desert would you like cake or pie (assuming you like both and ignoring the red herring argument of both are sugary treats and are bad for you and the like)? So which is the evil choice? Cake or Pie? One has to be good and one has to be bad, right? Not so. Both are neutral. They are neither good nor bad in and of themselves. For a main course they could be considered "bad" but the context is desert so both are "good" choices. So free will can include an infinite number of choices without any of them being "bad" in any way. I could go off on a tangent and bring up the whole garden thing but that's really not the point.

 

Okay, so free will can consist of nothing but "good" choices. What about pre-determism? Well, if we have free will then things can't be pre-determined is the argument. By pre-determinism you are trying to say "god makes us do whatever whether we want to or not," or something to that effect, right? How about fore-knowledge? If someone knows the outcome of an event, with 100% certainty, but did not cause that event to happen then they have fore-knowledge. So if "god" knows with 100% certainty all events then those events must occur whether or not "god" makes then occur or not. So if an event must occur, even though "god" doesn't make it occur, then that event will occur nonetheless. There's no choice. If I know what lotto numbers will be drawn next week, with 100% certainty (since we are talking in relation to "god" 100% is the only possibility), then those numbers must be drawn even though I did not make them be drawn. No other numbers could ever be drawn otherwise I do not have 100% fore-knowledge. So from "god's" perspective all things are pre-determined (fore-known yet not "caused" by "god"). This happens to include not only our actions but "god's" own actions (which is pretty self-limiting). From our point of view we have free will but in reality, since "god" knows with 100% certainty what we will do, we are essentially just following a script. Another quick example would be a movie (pick any you want but know very well). From the viewers point of view those characters must do the same thing every time. They can't deviate or you'd have another movie. You, as the viewer, aren't making them do what they do but you know what they will do (again, you know the movie very well...word for word). As a character in the movie, however, you are in the moment. All your actions are free will. You decide to go right...you go right. Little did you know that you had no other choice in the matter. The viewer knows you're going to go right so you do even though you weren't aware that the fore-knowledge of the viewer locked you into this choice before the opening credits.

 

So the correct answer, assuming an all-knowing "god" is that both free will and pre-determinism (fore-knowledge) exist depending on your point of view. From "god's" point of view all known events must occur so everything is pre-determined. From our point of view we have the illusion of free will. However, without a "god" (or someone/thing that knows everything with 100% certainty) free will is the only plausable choice (I know it may not be the only choice but if the free will illusion can never be revealed then it doesn't matter if another choice exists...this is why an all knowing entity can shatter that illusion revealing the other choice).

 

As for your analogy...well, if this were a simple simulation, as you state, then I'd have no problem destroying it. If, however, I professed my endless love for this simulation, then I would not destroy it without much sorrow and great pain. I would try every possible solution. Not by sending it a "sim" me though. I would simply reprogram them to "correct" this behavior. I would not blame my simulation for doing what I allowed the program to do (I am a programmer by the way). If it was acting in a way I didn't like I would, instead of expecting it to figure out some vague clues and fix itself, simply correct the algorithm so that it behaved to my liking (assuming I just couldn't accept its current behavior). My sims neither need to ask for my "fix" nor do they even need know about it for that matter. So if "god" doesn't like the way our programming is allowing us to act then he can "fix" us the same way. This doesn't negate free will (see above) at all. We would all simply start selecting choices from the "good" column ("free will" to us and "god's plan" to "god").

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

The Bible clearly want us to believe God is full of love, that he is the definition of love and mercy.

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Absolutely. But not always.

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How so? Who doesn't he love?

102350[/snapback]

Han, what about Rom 9:13 "Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Or is this another example of the Bible saying one thing but meaning another?

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True! I had forgotten about that verse. So we can conclude that God that is capable of hating the "sinner". And that stupid expression "hate the sin, but love the sinner", is false, and we should change our argument to make Christians admit that God hates sinners.

 

Basically we do have the answer then why God creates humans to send to Hell?

He decides or wants to hate them.

 

And why did God send Jesus to the world full of sinners?

Because he only loved some of them.

[Ouroboros]

This is quite an interesting discussion. I always was taught that God loves everyone, and I never realised these verses. I always read them as God hating the actions of the person, not the person himself, but it's very evident that God does hate people.

 

So John 3:16 is a complete contradiction then. He couldn't love the "World", he only loved "Some of the Sinners". The World was/is full of sinners, and before Jesus everyone were sinners, right? So in a world of only sinners, he still loved the "world", which means it should be read "so much did he love the few elected"

[Mythra]

Scripture reference please?

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This guy needs a scripture reference for David and Bathsheba? Some christian apologist.

 

Hey, TOC, I noticed you managed to ignore Achan's LITTLE KIDS. I'm not gonna give you a scripture reference for it, either. LOOK IT UP. And, after you find it, take note of one thing. Your God's anger subsided after these LITTLE KIDS - who had done absolutely nothing wrong, lay dead on the ground.

 

All hail our great and merciful LORD.

[willybilly30]

So god creates people he hates.

Why would anyone do that?

He hates sinners yet he creates them.

Even if people say god gave them freewill he knew what they would do.

Yet he creates them anyway.

[Ouroboros]

Maybe God hates what he's doing?

Maybe God is bored, and that's why he creates humans to hate?

Maybe God hates himself?

And then kill himself, and then *poof*... no more God... I guess we have to live without a God after all.

[willybilly30]

Maybe God hates what he's doing?

 

Then why do it?

 

Maybe God is bored, and that's why he creates humans to hate?

 

Surely, he could think of better things to do

 

Maybe God hates himself?

 

Not sure on that one

 

And then kill himself, and then *poof*... no more God... I guess we have to live without a God after all.

 

Without a creator everything would cease too, exist.

Since you are talking about bible god wed be better off with out him.

 

 

 

 

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[Ouroboros]

Without a creator everything would cease too, exist.

Since you are talking about bible god wed be better off with out him.

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Maybe not. Maybe that's what happened. God created the universe, started evolution, and then shot himself with the heavenly gun.

 

Another view is that maybe God isn't all-loving, all-nice, all-lovie-dovie, but a mean, egomanical bastard. And the Devil tried to rebel and set things straight, and all this evil and hardship in the world is because God is trying to take back the control from the Devil, and the reason why not all things are bad is because the Devil protects us... just a thought... and in all this God manipulated some people 2000 years ago to spread a lie, to say that he was all this and all that, so he could get back the power of the planet. But the truth is that we shouldn't let him, because he's evil.

[willybilly30]

I heard that theory one time when I studied luciferianism

Humans were slaves of God mining for gold and were too be destroyed after all the gold was found then Lucifer rescued us and is helping us become gods.

This information is on www.joyofsatan.com im not sure were they get this at.

Then theirs Gnosticism were the Old Testament god is an evil god and the new ones a good god. However, I do not think Jesus is very good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Another view is that maybe God isn't all-loving, all-nice, all-lovie-dovie, but a mean, egomanical bastard. And the Devil tried to rebel and set things straight, and all this evil and hardship in the world is because God is trying to take back the control from the Devil, and the reason why not all things are bad is because the Devil protects us... just a thought... and in all this God manipulated some people 2000 years ago to spread a lie, to say that he was all this and all that, so he could get back the power of the planet. But the truth is that we shouldn't let him, because he's evil.

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[MQTA]

http://www.halexandria.org the Sumerian texts paint a similiar story, explains why there seems to be TWO in the Garden... Enki & Enlil

 

excellent stuff on that site

[willybilly30]

Cool. Its interesting how the bible has stories borrowed from other religions yet says it’s the only religion. Iv always wondered that about genesis this will be interesting

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.halexandria.org  the Sumerian texts paint a similiar story, explains why there seems to be TWO in the Garden... Enki & Enlil

 

excellent stuff on that site

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[MQTA]

it's a very involved site, there are hundreds of pages. spent quite a few hours many days in a row reading and reading