I Am An Athiest - Who Can't Do Math

[ScifiChick]

Generally, those who are not so adept in mathmatics are much better in language.

 

I agree, but there is even more nuance involved here. There is a difference between mastering your native language and learning a new language.

 

This is a completely unscientific observation, but from my experience, those who are mechanically/mathematically oriented seem to pick up new languages more quickly and easily than types like me, who do better with social sciences and liberal arts. I think this might be because grammatical rules are similar to mathematics rules. You learn your own language intuitively, but your second language you have to learn the rules.

 

Gotta disagree with you on this one. I have a fantastic facility for my native language, and I like math enough that had I not been in a motherfucking fundie religion, it's a toss up as to whether I would have majored in math or English. But even though I like math, I had to use my language facility to explain the problem in this thread. And I have to work at math. It doesn't come naturally to me. I suck at other languages. I really wanted to learn French. And I really wanted to learn German. I just can't do it. I've tried and tried and tried since I was 13. It's the only thing standing between me an an undergraduate degree from one of the most prestigious public universities in the U.S. (University of Virginia - prestigious in English).

 

,,,

 

Shit. I've just written this whole thing out, rather tipsy on Vodka after a rough day regarding my mother's health, and realized it's completely anecdotal and I'm the only example I know of and I'm very weird, so never mind.

 

What I wrote might still be amusing to some, however, so I'll go ahead and post it.

 

 

 

[AlphaToOmega]

You speaken da englez goot wench.

 

r.e. that other problem, about the hotel:

Each man paid $9

Total $27

The hotel charged $25

 

So the bell boy kept the tip.

 

Think of each man giving the bell boy $9 and the hotel manager asking for $25.

Pretty natural for the bellboy to keep the change.

[Vigile]

And I have to work at math. It doesn't come naturally to me. I suck at other languages. I really wanted to learn French. And I really wanted to learn German. I just can't do it. I've tried and tried and tried since I was 13. It's the only thing standing between me an an undergraduate degree from one of the most prestigious public universities in the U.S. (University of Virginia - prestigious in English).

 

Ok, as I said, my observations are completely unscientific. I've been interested in this question for a long time since I struggle to learn new languages, and largely don't do it as the process is as painful as learning math. Were it enjoyable for me, like learning history, reading lit, etc..., I wouldn't procrastinate.

 

Those I've met over the years that do enjoy learning new languages also claim to enjoy learning math and are more mechanically oriented than I.

 

So, you are an example of someone who doesn't fit my unscientific model, yet you are also an example of someone who thrives in English, as do I, yet struggles with other languages. So, at best, I guess we can hypothesize that capacity for new language is separate from capacity with native language, yet we can't necessarily say that those mathematically-oriented commonly also share the capacity for new language.

 

I hope your mom is ok.

[notazombie]

 

The $2 to the bellhop is part of the $9 they paid, not the $5.

 

 

 

That line explained it perfectly. Thanks! It was 27 plus the 3 given back to the men = 30.

[Mike D]

calm down, Atheists. It's perfectly acceptable for a minority group to suck at math.

 

I have gay friends who can't dress hair, decorate, or quote lyrics from Broadway showtunes . Strange, but true.

That's funny because I am gay and I can't do any of those things either

 

An atheist who can't do math and a gay gay who can't decorate, all in one person - what's the world coming to? The end is near!

[Mike D]

OH MY GODDDD!!!!!!!!

 

I just realized I made the biggest fuck up ever!

 

I mis-spelled Atheist in the thread title - I can't spell either!!!!!

 

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!11!1!one!!one11!!!

[Ouroboros]

OH MY GODDDD!!!!!!!!

 

I just realized I made the biggest fuck up ever!

 

I mis-spelled Atheist in the thread title - I can't spell either!!!!!

 

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!11!1!one!!one11!!!

Athiests can't spell.

 

I want that on a t-shirt.

[Mike D]

OH MY GODDDD!!!!!!!!

 

I just realized I made the biggest fuck up ever!

 

I mis-spelled Atheist in the thread title - I can't spell either!!!!!

 

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!11!1!one!!one11!!!

Athiests can't spell.

 

I want that on a t-shirt.

What's funny is that i've seen Christians routinely mis-spell atheist as athiest in Christian forums. Why did that have to be the ONE word of all possible words I had to mis-spell!!

[flockoff]

 

Wow, this was really driving me nuts. Thanks to those who let me know I was in good company.

 

I don't know if anyone still doesn't get it, but I was reading it incorrectly as "A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1 more of that total in addition to the price of the ball. How much does the ball cost?"

The language is tricky because if I sold you a ball for ten cents, I might say, "I'll give you this bat for a dollar more," and you would know that I was offering the bat for a dollar, not a dollar more than what you paid for the ball. At least that was my problem.

[JadedAtheist]

OH MY GODDDD!!!!!!!!

 

I just realized I made the biggest fuck up ever!

 

I mis-spelled Atheist in the thread title - I can't spell either!!!!!

 

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!11!1!one!!one11!!!

 

Don't feel too bad. When I was telling Dave that I wanted my username to be JadedAthiest he replied back "I assume you mean JadedAtheist?" That was thoroughly embarrassing. I would have died if he didn't notice and I had it gone through.

[Mike D]

 

Don't feel too bad. When I was telling Dave that I wanted my username to be JadedAthiest he replied back "I assume you mean JadedAtheist?" That was thoroughly embarrassing. I would have died if he didn't notice and I had it gone through.

Yeah I was thinking I could probably ask a mod to fix it for me, but then where would the fun be in that?

[RankStranger]

Y'all should be glad you don't have to integrals with parts and hyperbolic inverse trig functions...

 

Sounds like you're in Calc III right now? I actually enjoyed math up through that class

No. Only Calc II. It'll be more in III. And I'm planning on taking two other higher level math classes after that.

 

Just wait 'til differential equations. That's where I surpassed my 'enjoyment' level.

That's one of the other classes... Yeah... It's really But I'm doing okay though. It's just hard to remember all tricks and methods from all levels. A test can suddenly contain a question where you have to remember some detail from a year ago.

 

I could probably take just about any undergraduate level math class and do just fine if I was interested... but with differential equations I found just how UNinterested I am in math once it gets beyond a certain point.

I'm glad I haven't lost my interest yet. It's just difficult and head-spinning.

 

What other math class do you have to take? For my ME program, I had to take Calc I, II, III, and differential equations. I know that lots of engineering programs these days are replacing the Calc III requirement with linear algebra- is that the case with your EE program?

 

Really I think I would have been better served by linear algebra than Calc III. And if I were a better student (in this for the knowledge rather than the degree), I'd probably take that class independently (but I'm not, and I won't). Calc III is basically just an extension of Calc II- just takes the same concepts a step further. You design lots of big nasty integrals, do partial derivatives and the like- but in three or even four dimensions. It was interesting, but I've rarely if ever used any of that in subsequent classes. Whereas I've had my ass kicked by matrix algebra several times. That was covered in my calc classes- but only briefly and as an after-thought. An entire class on the subject (linear algebra) would have come in handy several times.

[RankStranger]

Mike- I really wouldn't take that word-problem in the opening post too seriously. I also came up with prices of $1.00 and $0.10 at first- because I didn't bother to write anything down or check my answer.

 

I'm not claiming to be a math-god or anything, but it's one of my best subjects. And I failed at that word-problem too. I think it's a function of laziness and not paying attention. Lack of interest, really.

 

I don't know if there's much correlation between intuitive/sensing types and math ability. My wife and I are both very strongly N-types (I'm NT and she's NF). I like math; she hates it. She actually did well in her master's-level statistics class, though- it's the only math she's ever enjoyed. She said it was because the math 'means something'.

[Mike D]

Lack of interest, really.

Yea I can understand that. I remember when I first learned algebra in school many moons ago and when I learned how to do it I actually thought it was ok because of the problem-solving/puzzle aspect. But after you've done it once the satisfaction leaves and it really just turns into a pain in the ass. And I guess that's how I see math now, nothing but a pain in the ass

[Vigile]

she hates it. She actually did well in her master's-level statistics class, though- it's the only math she's ever enjoyed.

 

That's me in a nutshell.

[Ouroboros]

What other math class do you have to take? For my ME program, I had to take Calc I, II, III, and differential equations. I know that lots of engineering programs these days are replacing the Calc III requirement with linear algebra- is that the case with your EE program?

Originally, I was considering MBA/Economics, but with everything going on, I don't see how I will have time to study full time. So right now, I'm planning on just finishing up a couple of associate degrees, math, economics, and business.

 

Really I think I would have been better served by linear algebra than Calc III. And if I were a better student (in this for the knowledge rather than the degree), I'd probably take that class independently (but I'm not, and I won't). Calc III is basically just an extension of Calc II- just takes the same concepts a step further. You design lots of big nasty integrals, do partial derivatives and the like- but in three or even four dimensions. It was interesting, but I've rarely if ever used any of that in subsequent classes. Whereas I've had my ass kicked by matrix algebra several times. That was covered in my calc classes- but only briefly and as an after-thought. An entire class on the subject (linear algebra) would have come in handy several times.

Yeah. I read some Calc in highschool back in Sweden, 25 years ago (eek!), and I never had to use it. But I can see a growing interest and need in the business world for mathematicians. It's not completely obvious, but I know from some sources that if you know SQL databases and have some degree in math, you can get some really serious and well paid jobs. At the same time, I'm kind of interested in the business aspect now instead, and I'm involved in two different (very early phases) of startup companies. We'll see where that will go.

[freespirit]

I knew the answer wasn't .10 but I had a mental block as to what it really was. However, when I read the answer I got it, meaning I got to the logic behind the question. I do believe in God though. I don't think one really has a ton to do with the other.

[midniterider]

Today I was reading an article that links Intuition to god belief (link below):

 

In the article, one of the examples they used to show the differences in thinking between intuitive thinkers and critical thinkers (and presumably show that intuitive types were more likely to believe in god, although it doesn't say that specifically), was the following problem:

 

"A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?"

 

So my first reaction when reading the question was that the answer most likely wasn't .10 cents, not because I knew the answer but because after reading the statement itself and coming to .10, I was very skeptical if it was really that easy. I thought not. But, I couldn't come up with the answer, mainly because if it involves math I just can't do it - for whatever reason anything beyond basic math I have a major mental block when it comes to doing it. Anyway I googled the answer, and even after reading a few websites that explained how the correct answer was arrived, I still couldn't understand how they got the answer and I decided that in my mind the answer was .10 cents. So in addition to my math mental block, when it was explained to me in as plain a language as possible, I still couldn't get it!

 

I was very bothered by this because I don't necessarily consider myself an idiot, yet I can't even seem to solve a very basic problem - even after it is explained to me. So not only does this make me question my intelligence, but it also led to me thinking, how the fuck did I ever end up an atheist? The thought process I used to arrive at my beliefs were really almost a reverse engineering of sorts, which I think might be similar to the problem above. But I can't do the problem, ugh.

 

The one thing I do find interesting is that my skepticism of the real answer led me back to the "easy" answer, which I was originally skeptical of. go figure!

 

 

Anyway I was curious what answer everyone else got, and if anyone else had a problem either getting the answer or just "getting" the steps to get the answer?

 

Also wondering what other opinions are on the article itself? I actually can't figure out if I am an intuitive thinker or a critical thinker, or perhaps just a morphing of the two into something else?

 

 

 

http://news.yahoo.co...-104403461.html

 

 

I got the answer wrong initially because I didn't care about the question. Maybe that's why I had a hard time in algebra. Because I knew it was totally useless and that I would never need to use it (unless I wanted to be an algebra teacher). Much like I would never have to solve a bat and ball math problem in the course of real life. On the other hand, I can program a computer in several languages. Both programming a computer and doing algebra require a step by step problem solving process. I can do one but not the other. So am I logical or intuitive? I think the study in that article is flawed if it only uses math as a test of logic and reasoning.

 

Intuition may lead people to god but it can also lead them away from god. Logic and reason can do the same. Some people start out as atheists and turn to xianity. Others, vice versa. How can the same person have two opposing points of view in his lifetime? Easy. ha.

[midniterider]

Today I was reading an article that links Intuition to god belief (link below):

 

In the article, one of the examples they used to show the differences in thinking between intuitive thinkers and critical thinkers (and presumably show that intuitive types were more likely to believe in god, although it doesn't say that specifically), was the following problem:

 

"A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?"

 

 

 

I bought an aluminum baseball bat at Walmart for $17 on clearance. It was about $430 cheaper than the Ruger SR9. I think it was a good deal.

[freespirit]

Today I was reading an article that links Intuition to god belief (link below):

 

In the article, one of the examples they used to show the differences in thinking between intuitive thinkers and critical thinkers (and presumably show that intuitive types were more likely to believe in god, although it doesn't say that specifically), was the following problem:

 

"A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?"

 

 

 

I bought an aluminum baseball bat at Walmart for $17 on clearance. It was about $430 cheaper than the Ruger SR9. I think it was a good deal.

 

[Sexton Blake]

I am into cosmology which is mostly ideas and speculation but when it comes to people who "can do the maths" (I mean serious maths and not the simple stuff on this thread), you never came across a creationist who is more closed minded, and who believes all dogma as if it were infallibly true.

 

You cannot debate ideas with them because even before you post anything they know you are wrong because there are no ideas, just their "truth".

[VacuumFlux]

My biggest problem with math is that I have what I call Math Dyslexia. I found out in recent years that actually has a name. I'm fine with letters and words, but when it comes to numbers, my brain either reverses them or mixes up the order of them. Thus, my brain can turn a 7 into a 1 or vice versa or a change other numbers or turn multiple numbers like 1234 into 4231 or something insane.

 

Ooh, you too! It seems like it just doesn't matter to me what order the digits are in as long as I've got them all. I once confused 113 with 131 while talking to my boss about which room (er, those were actually the class numbers that used those lab rooms, not the room number, but close enough) I'd just cleaned, who then corrected me, and I stood there for a while before I figured out what was wrong. I do that with phone numbers a lot too. Or with my ATM pin numbers, which can get rather embarrassing when you can't remember which permutation is correct and have to drive away without completing your banking so that the ATM won't eat your card.

 

I've wondered sometimes if it's related to the fact that I'm good at rotating mental images. I'm good with fitting 3D objects together, drawing/painting, and those fun puzzles where you fold up the box and figure out which patterns could end up next to each other and in which orientation. I'm really bad with the getting the numbers 6 and 9 confused, and I wonder if that's because they're topographically identical.

 

I am very slightly dyslexic with letters, but never enough to be a problem. I was using Mavis Beacon to practice typing, and there were a small number of letter combinations that I was consistently getting backwards (the program notices, tells you, and then gives you words full of the combinations you keep getting wrong). But then I found some old hand-written homework from before I learned to type, and those same letter combinations where consistently flipped there too. On the plus side, I'm very good at reading poorly typed instant messenger conversations because I can reorganise the letters into what I know the other person meant to say and not notice how much they got wrong.

 

Just wait 'til differential equations. That's where I surpassed my 'enjoyment' level.

 

I could probably take just about any undergraduate level math class and do just fine if I was interested... but with differential equations I found just how UNinterested I am in math once it gets beyond a certain point.

 

Hey, diffeq is fun, and incredibly useful. I plan on rereading that text book once I'm done rereading my quantum book. Higher applied math makes me happy (but pure math is just weird and obsessive). Arithmetic, though... uh... I can do order of magnitude calculations, but if you want to do something stupid like use numbers, that's what a computer or calculator is for. I gave some really weird tips (both too high and too low) before I noticed that I really ought to be doing more precise math for 'em. I mean, they were all within one order of magnitude of a reasonable tip...

 

Generally, those who are not so adept in mathmatics are much better in language. I too have a mental block when it comes to mathmatics--a blockage I have been trying to pour drano on--but I have long since stop worrying about feeling like an idiot because I know I can't possilbly be adept in both language mechanics and advanced mathmatics.

 

I am competent at both, just not at the same time. I consistently score higher on the verbal sections than the math section of the SAT and GRE, with no improvement in math relative to verbal even after a physics degree. I can't switch back and forth between them very well, either. I ended up on the GRE having trouble picking which answer was right because the options were "greater than", "less than", etc, and I literally could not read the words without having trouble with the math. I had to write down the symbols and ignore the words in order to complete the test in a reasonable time.

 

This is a completely unscientific observation, but from my experience, those who are mechanically/mathematically oriented seem to pick up new languages more quickly and easily than types like me, who do better with social sciences and liberal arts. I think this might be because grammatical rules are similar to mathematics rules. You learn your own language intuitively, but your second language you have to learn the rules.

 

I pick up on new grammars rather easily. I have a much harder time learning new vocabularies, because they don't follow enough of a pattern. This ends up with me having a much easier time being ok at reading new languages than speaking them. And I like order and structure, and speech goes by so fast, that I get really stressed out trying to form verbal statement in a foreign language in real time.

 

I don't know if there's much correlation between intuitive/sensing types and math ability. My wife and I are both very strongly N-types (I'm NT and she's NF). I like math; she hates it. She actually did well in her master's-level statistics class, though- it's the only math she's ever enjoyed. She said it was because the math 'means something'.

 

I'm INFP/INTP, though recently I've also been testing more towards J. And I do agree that stats means something. I hated error analysis until I learned enough stats to be able to say "if we spend enough money/time to improve this measurement by X error, then that will provide a Y more accurate result, but at Z improvement there we'll be limited by the error in this other measurement". That was the first class where I looked forward to, instead of dreading, the error analysis section of the lab reports.

[Mriana]

My biggest problem with math is that I have what I call Math Dyslexia. I found out in recent years that actually has a name. I'm fine with letters and words, but when it comes to numbers, my brain either reverses them or mixes up the order of them. Thus, my brain can turn a 7 into a 1 or vice versa or a change other numbers or turn multiple numbers like 1234 into 4231 or something insane.

 

Ooh, you too! It seems like it just doesn't matter to me what order the digits are in as long as I've got them all. I once confused 113 with 131 while talking to my boss about which room (er, those were actually the class numbers that used those lab rooms, not the room number, but close enough) I'd just cleaned, who then corrected me, and I stood there for a while before I figured out what was wrong. I do that with phone numbers a lot too. Or with my ATM pin numbers, which can get rather embarrassing when you can't remember which permutation is correct and have to drive away without completing your banking so that the ATM won't eat your card.

 

I've wondered sometimes if it's related to the fact that I'm good at rotating mental images. I'm good with fitting 3D objects together, drawing/painting, and those fun puzzles where you fold up the box and figure out which patterns could end up next to each other and in which orientation. I'm really bad with the getting the numbers 6 and 9 confused, and I wonder if that's because they're topographically identical.

 

I am very slightly dyslexic with letters, but never enough to be a problem. I was using Mavis Beacon to practice typing, and there were a small number of letter combinations that I was consistently getting backwards (the program notices, tells you, and then gives you words full of the combinations you keep getting wrong). But then I found some old hand-written homework from before I learned to type, and those same letter combinations where consistently flipped there too. On the plus side, I'm very good at reading poorly typed instant messenger conversations because I can reorganise the letters into what I know the other person meant to say and not notice how much they got wrong.

 

Yes, you get it. That's exactly what I do with numbers. I can look at it and the moment I look away to write it down or say it, it gets all screwed up in my head and comes out all wrong through my mouth or on paper. I don't have that problem with letters, but with numbers, I'm a mess and can even turn a 3 into an 8 or a 7 into a 1 or whatever. As I said, they didn't discover this until I took a psychology stats course, then an then they noticed and it has a name, I just can't remember it.

[blackpudd1n]

This whole thread is doing my head in :/

 

I suck at maths. i passed Year 11 Maths by 1% (I got 51%), and I am convinced my teacher only passed me because she didn't want to see my face again for another year. However, I ended up working in domestic and international accounts, playing with foreign currencies, before a stint at ING bank, as support to the currency traders (it's kind of hard to explain my job description).

 

I never got lateral-thinking problems, never once worked out the bastards. Yet I have the most whacked-out thought process of anyone I know.

 

At school I hated English, but I love writing. Not only did I hate Maths and English, but I topped Economics. In one test I even argued an answer with my Economics teacher, and after he considered my explanation for why my answer was correct and his wrong, he agreed that I was correct. Unfortunately the rest of the class had also chosen his answer, and subsequently had the mark deducted, so I was not popular.

 

And in the case of languages, I noticed before that someone said that people who were Mathematically-inclined tend to do well; but I am not so inclined, yet I picked up Mandarin Chinese quite easily when I was studying it at university. I do, however, believe there is a reason for this: I was born half deaf in both ears, so my first language is not actually English, but "deaf-speak". I translate deaf-speak into English every day, so the process of translation comes naturally.

 

And on the subject of intuition, I am a very intuitive person, and that intuition actually led to my deconversion. That being said, though, much of my intuitive abilities arise out of my deafness. I read body language, facial expression, and changes in pitch and tone when one speaks. I have to, in order to survive. My fiancee has learned not to lie to me, because he knows I will call him on it. So in a way, it's a rational form of intuition.

 

And finally, as far as the maths problem goes, my first thought was the bat was $1, the ball $0.10; but that didn't seem quite right, and when I read the explanation, it made perfect sense to me.

 

But I stopped trying to box myself into a neat package long ago. I walk to my own beat

[YellowJacket]

^^ but what we all REALLY want to know is, "can you do hair?"