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Goodbye Jesus

A lesson for Christians on Judging and Hypocrisy


Guest SerenityNow

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Guest SerenityNow

Your lesson on Judging: Coming here to debate is one thing, but some of you come in here saying your with the heathens and bad-mouthing us and poking fun (you know who you are)...YOU are going against explicit instructions of your holy book that you claim to follow.

 

Matthew 7 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Luke 6 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

 

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

 

Romans 2 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

 

Now, just to make sure that I have "interpreted" these few scriptures correctly, I'll give the following from Paul........

 

1 Corinthians 5:11-13

11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

 

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[a]

 

Another area that NT authors claim Jesus taught against is hypocrisy. Let me give you the definition of a hypocrite: : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion

 

When you come here and try and give us your "absolutes" while at the same time making cracks on us and being ugly, you are being disobedient to the bibles clear instructions. Need I put down all the hypocrisy scriptures? I don't give a crap if you get ugly or not, BUT, I do know the bible and what it commands of it's followers. Your Jesus didn't go to the sinners and call them low lifes or heathens or even speak at them of how bad it hurt him that they didn't believe. Nor do the gospels record your Jesus as saying that he was gearing up to go in with the lions. For a man you claim to follow; many of you "Christians" are doing a pretty sorry ass job of following him.

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Interesting Serenity that no one has replied to this.

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Damn.

 

Convicted by a heathen. :twitch:

 

That's GOTTA suck.

 

Christians, you'd better :notworthy: for forgiveness.

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Interesting Serenity that no one has replied to this.

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Much like my "Fruit of the Spirit" thread. They'll ignore it for as long as possible, hoping we'll let it get pushed down the forum, so they won't have to deal with this.

 

If we keep this topic alive, they'll eventually chime in with all sorts of BS and ad homs, calling US "whiners" and "hypocrits". They'll say that WE "started it", or "goaded them into responding with harsh words." I love THAT one! (iprayican uses it often.)

 

I find it amazing that Christians will confess that WE have more control over their "fruit" than does "Christ"! Apparently "abiding in Ex-C" has a more profound effect than "abiding in Christ"! :lmao::loser:

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Absolutely agreed. The word of the day is HYPOCRITE.

 

Funny thing, in another post our friend Amanda commented that most of the fine people on this site are more Christian than her experiences with fundamentalists. I think our recent visitor is demonstrating that rather nicely for everyone who reads his posts.

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Interesting Serenity that no one has replied to this.

102768[/snapback]

 

Interesting..? Yes.

Noteworthy? Absolutly.

 

But hardly surprising.

 

Merlin

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I just felt this one being so important, that I've pinned it.

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Interesting Serenity that no one has replied to this.

102768[/snapback]

 

Of course not. The Christians who are guilty of these sins are ashamed that an unbeliever knows the "law" better than them. However, I'm willing to bet that these sins will not be seen so much now that they have been pointed out.

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I don't think the 'xtians' guilty of this hypocrisy could give a shit. They only reason they spout off is for the thrill of 'righteous indignation', which is a pretty potent rush (I remember it well from my days of believing).

 

They've already explained it away in their minds with some verse or other, or they simply don't care.

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Your lesson on Judging:  Coming here to debate is one thing, but some of you come in here saying your with the heathens and bad-mouthing us and poking fun (you know who you are)...YOU are going against explicit instructions of your holy book that you claim to follow. 

 

Matthew 7 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Luke 6  37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

 

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

 

Romans 2 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

 

Now, just to make sure that I have "interpreted" these few scriptures correctly, I'll give the following from Paul........

 

1 Corinthians 5:11-13

11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

 

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[a]

 

Another area that NT authors claim Jesus taught against is hypocrisy.  Let me give you the definition of a hypocrite:  : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion

 

When you come here and try and give us your "absolutes" while at the same time making cracks on us and being ugly, you are being disobedient to the bibles clear instructions.  Need I put down all the hypocrisy scriptures?  I don't give a crap if you get ugly or not, BUT, I do know the bible and what it commands of it's followers.  Your Jesus didn't go to the sinners and call them low lifes or heathens or even speak at them of how bad it hurt him that they didn't believe.  Nor do the gospels record your Jesus as saying that he was gearing up to go in with the lions. For a man you claim to follow; many of you "Christians" are doing a pretty sorry ass job of following him.

102668[/snapback]

 

I am a Christian but I agree that you are quoting scripture correctly and reasonably, and are exposing incorrect behavior on the part of Christians.

 

In a nutshell, the reason why mainstream Christians act this way is that they are misinformed about the nature and purpose of the judgment day, and they care about you. They think you are in grave danger of eternal hell -- and so some of them are sincerely trying to shock you into seeing that Jesus was legit. I've argued and pleaded and reasoned with many such sincere believers, and almost to a man they really are motivated by genuine love and concern for "the lost". But I wish they would read the Bible more carefully, and let go of their seeming love of "hellfire" -- for Biblical reasons, not merely logical ones.

 

I do not come to this site to try and convince anyone that they need to change, now. Only to say that I understand why mainstream Christianity burns people out, why it is so repulsive, why it causes distrust of God by painting an outrageous picture of him.

 

I think that this topic was dealt with very succinctly by Jesus in John 12:47-48. There, it says that Jesus is not judging people who hear but reject his words in this life. The next verse is taken by mainstream Christians to mean that if folks like you don't accept, they'll go to hell. But what it really says is simply that all people who do not receive Christ during the Christian age have already been judged in a sense -- they remain under the judgment that came upon all mankind to condemnation, because of the single act of disobedience of the first man.

 

The hereditary "fall" would indeed be unfair if it were the end of the matter. But many scriptures clearly state that all people will be released from that hereditary curse. God hasn't even tried to convert the world yet. When he does, you can rest assured that people won't be wondering about who God is or what he is doing. Folks who need good evidence and use their brains, like most atheists and agnostics I know, won't have to ask a bunch of unrealistic, hypocritical "Christians" what God wants or what Jesus meant. The judgments of God will be concretely visible and evident, and folks will have ample opportunity to think about things and enjoy the tender mercies of God.

 

That will be a "day" -- actually a millennium -- of time when all of the people who have ever lived will be introduced to God's wisdom and love and justice in a plain, instructive way -- and when that happens the vast majority of people will be mighty happy.

 

But for now, God is still approachable on an individual basis, but isn't really doing much explaining, other than what folks can get by ignoring the mainstream interpreters and just reading and comparing the things the Bible says. The reason for that is that now IS the judgment day for all Christians, and they are being evaluated corporately and individually to see how they will handle their responsibilities before God.

 

I think you should pray for the Christians. It's the Christian church that is really a mess, and in danger of some serious retribution from God for its crimes. :-)

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I am a Christian but I agree that you are quoting scripture correctly and reasonably, and are exposing incorrect behavior on the part of Christians.

For SerenityNow, I thank you.

In a nutshell, the reason why mainstream Christians act this way is that they are misinformed about the nature and purpose of the judgment day, and they care about you. They think you are in grave danger of eternal hell -- and so some of them are sincerely trying to shock you into seeing that Jesus was legit. I've argued and pleaded and reasoned with many such sincere believers, and almost to a man they really are motivated by genuine love and concern for "the lost". But I wish they would read the Bible more carefully, and let go of their seeming love of "hellfire" -- for Biblical reasons, not merely logical ones.

"Love of hellfire." :lmao: Classic. May I borrow that line?

I do not come to this site to try and convince anyone that they need to change, now. Only to say that I understand why mainstream Christianity burns people out, why it is so repulsive, why it causes distrust of God by painting an outrageous picture of him.

Again, no arguments here.

I think that this topic was dealt with very succinctly by Jesus in John 12:47-48. There, it says that Jesus is not judging people who hear but reject his words in this life. The next verse is taken by mainstream Christians to mean that if folks like you don't accept, they'll go to hell. But what it really says is simply that all people who do not receive Christ during the Christian age have already been judged in a sense -- they remain under the judgment that came upon all mankind to condemnation, because of the single act of disobedience of the first man.

 

The hereditary "fall" would indeed be unfair if it were the end of the matter. But many scriptures clearly state that all people will be released from that hereditary curse. God hasn't even tried to convert the world yet. When he does, you can rest assured that people won't be wondering about who God is or what he is doing. Folks who need good evidence and use their brains, like most atheists and agnostics I know, won't have to ask a bunch of unrealistic, hypocritical "Christians" what God wants or what Jesus meant. The judgments of God will be concretely visible and evident, and folks will have ample opportunity to think about things and enjoy the tender mercies of God.

 

That will be a "day" -- actually a millennium -- of time when all of the people who have ever lived will be introduced to God's wisdom and love and justice in a plain, instructive way -- and when that happens the vast majority of people will be mighty happy.

And THIS is where you lose me. Where are you getting this interpretation from? What scriptural proof do you use to support your view? It sounds lovely, but I've never seen it in the bible.

But for now, God is still approachable on an individual basis, but isn't really doing much explaining, other than what folks can get by ignoring the mainstream interpreters and just reading and comparing the things the Bible says. The reason for that is that now IS the judgment day for all Christians, and they are being evaluated corporately and individually to see how they will handle their responsibilities before God.

 

I think you should pray for the Christians. It's the Christian church that is really a mess, and in danger of some serious retribution from God for its crimes.  :-)

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Umm, sorry. But WE here at Ex-C gave up ye olde prayer routine a while back. Didn't work for us then, and I'm fairly certain that it won't work today.

 

But, I tell you what, I WILL "hope" that "Christians", yourself included, are able to see the wool that is being pulled over your eyes and escape the religious meme that infects your thinking. This is NOT an insult, but a sincere desire to see you mentally healthy and whole.

 

Take care, diggin. You seem like a fine person.

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I am a Christian but I agree that you are quoting scripture correctly and reasonably, and are exposing incorrect behavior on the part of Christians.

 

In a nutshell, the reason why mainstream Christians act this way is that they are misinformed about the nature and purpose of the judgment day, and they care about you. They think you are in grave danger of eternal hell -- and so some of them are sincerely trying to shock you into seeing that Jesus was legit. I've argued and pleaded and reasoned with many such sincere believers, and almost to a man they really are motivated by genuine love and concern for "the lost". But I wish they would read the Bible more carefully, and let go of their seeming love of "hellfire" -- for Biblical reasons, not merely logical ones.

 

I always have to say I appreciate it when any Christian is willing to acknowledge problems with their religion, as doing so is far from the norm unfortunately.

 

I of course don't agree with you religious standpoint, but I wholeheartedly appreciate and back up your personal standpoint of being willing to recognize problems and showing a desire to fix them.

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I think you should pray for the Christians. It's the Christian church that is really a mess, and in danger of some serious retribution from God for its crimes.  :-)

103133[/snapback]

 

I agree. Diggin doesn't seem too bad. (for a christian)

 

Tell you what, Diggin. I'll cross my fingers for the christians. It's been shown to be 17% more effective in achieving results.

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Almond to that, Serenity. That was a HUGE reason I could no longer attend my former Lutheran church. 99% of the people there were very judgmental, and it wasn't worthwhile going for the remaining 1% (namely my dad and a few others). And my mother was overly critical and judgmental her entire life. I was never good enough for her. Never smart enough, never successful enough, never pretty enough, never thin enough, etc. The people at that church treated me like that as well. I want to know exactly why she decided that she would be MY judge, despite the fact that the Bible says NOT TO JUDGE. But I will probably never know that because she is dead now. But if Christians actually read the Bible and didn't judge people, I'll bet that a lot fewer people would be ex-Christians now.

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My point was more along the lines of...don't come in here and say I need your jesus when you yourself don't even follow the teachings.  When I was a Christian, I took those scriptures literally, it was not my place to judge those outside.  However, I sure as hell used judgement on those who called themselves Christians but did not obey.  I was a bible thumper and although I was a fundy, when I finally read those commands, I stopped my judgement on those outside of the church.

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I understand - just giving my perspective on why they do it. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with their religion or their beliefs: they do it because they enjoy it.

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That will be a "day" -- actually a millennium -- of time when all of the people who have ever lived will be introduced to God's wisdom and love and justice in a plain, instructive way -- and when that happens the vast majority of people will be mighty happy.

<snip>

I think you should pray for the Christians. It's the Christian church that is really a mess, and in danger of some serious retribution from God for its crimes.  :-)

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I appreciate your intentions in saying we should "pray for the Christians” It makes me smile in a way to hear that, even though of course I don't believe in prayer. Thanks for defending our dignity in the face of the Great Inquisitors of God, so to speak.

 

One note to the above millennial reference: I've never spent the time really researching it, but prior to my leaving Christianity it had occurred to me that that 1000 year of peace was actually referring to what is to us today, essentially a total dictatorship with absolutely no freedoms whatsoever. Rev.19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." Note: rule with a rod of iron?

 

It is peace, but not because of love, but because he will militarily destroy any and all who oppose him. No more war because of strength. Sounds like the promises of many despots, only with flaming angels and whatnot. It was just a thought. I think the promise of clouds and pink teddy bears in heaven sounds better then living under a religious dictatorship.

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Antlerman,Nov 7 2005, 04:42 PM]

 

I think the promise of clouds and pink teddy bears in heaven sounds better then living under a religious dictatorship.

 

Pink teddy bears??!!!! Nuh uh! :grin:

 

Sorry :: clears throat:: go back to the serious discussion

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If you cared what our Jesus said, you would be a non-Christian telling Christians what they believe... You would be a Christian, telling Christians what they believe. If you are so convinced of what Jesus said, then why are you not a Christian?

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If you cared what our Jesus said, you would be a non-Christian telling Christians what they believe...  You would be a Christian, telling Christians what they believe.  If you are so convinced of what Jesus said, then why are you not a Christian?

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:scratch: Because we do think that Christians at least should be following what they claim they believe and not live in cognitive dissonance. That's what we mean with Christians being hypocrites.

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Interesting Serenity that no one has replied to this.

102768[/snapback]

 

Of course not. The Christians who are guilty of these sins are ashamed that an unbeliever knows the "law" better than them. However, I'm willing to bet that these sins will not be seen so much now that they have been pointed out.

102926[/snapback]

 

Hardly. The ignorance of a non-believe who, as is the case here, has had such a great oppertunity to recieve Christ but rejects Him still, rarely brings any conviction whatsoever. Without Christ, I do not believe you will ever understand anything that preaches Christ. Until you open the door and meet Christ personally, you will only be listening through one that is closed, catching broken speach and muffled words. It is these pieces that will draw a man to open the door, if he likes what he hears. If he does not like what he hears, he'll be pushed away. Since you have not opened the door after all this time, it can only be said that you have walked away. Obviously, you have yet to believe.

 

When the door is opened, Christ is met and the Spirit received. With the Spirit of God inside, the door open, you can clearly hear and clearly see what once came to you in only pieces of speech, through a thick and sound breaking door. I know this from personal experience. Jesus said though, that He stands at the door and knocks, and whoever opens the door He would come in and sup with them, and they with Him. This is crucial. If you don't do this, you are just listening to Him knocking... listening to Him talking. If you are on the outside... who are you to teach those who are on the inside, how to be inside? I look at those around me on the inside, wondering of your sanity as you try to convince us of the methods it takes to be inside the love of God. But, aren't you outside? Come join us then, and we will both learn to understand.

 

Don't judge me!

 

Speck in your brother's eye; log in your eye.

 

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

 

Some of you might be going, "Yeah... jerks think they can judge me. Who do they think they are anyways? You can't judge me, that's God's job and Jesus is saying so. Who are you to remove my speck? I am the way I am and it's not your job to change me. Amen to this, Amen!" This would be a poor statement, due to a poor interpretation of what is being said here by Jesus. In fact, the thought that another is unworthy to judge you because they have a "log in their eye," is *in and of itself* a judgment you have made about them; whereby, contridicting your own interpreation of this scripture--because you have just judged them, and their eye full of logs unworthy of judging you.

 

Do not automatically assume someone has a log in their eye, and therefore is unworthy of giving you advice. When you are judged, it just might be the log in your own eye that tells you not to listen, because the person "judging" is hypocrite for doing so. Judgment is not automatically associated with hypocrisy; however, in our own loggy eyes, we often assume a log in our judgers eye, because our eyes are full of giant logs of pride that call all advisors hypocrites unworthy to give us advice. -- Judgment is not by default associated with hypocrisy. So, do not treat it as so when you are judged by others.

 

It is inaccurate to assume that everyone trying to remove a speck from your eye, has a log in their eye. Jesus is not saying, "never take the speck out of your brother's eye." Jesus is actually saying *quite the opposite.* Don't believe me? Just read what He said. "Take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

 

So, you understand that Jesus is rebuking, and encouraging the exact same action at the exact same time. He encourages us *to judge,* AND, He encourages us *not to judge* simultaneously. He tells the hypocrite, look at your own sin. He also encourages us to see clearly, and to remove the speck from our brother's eye. He does not say, "don't ever do it" (point out sin, judge, remove specks). In fact, he encourages it, if you have removed the log from your eye.

 

Do not assume your brother has a log in his eye and that he is a hypocrite just because he is trying to assist in removing some sinful activity in your life. Maybe he has already removed the log in his eye, therefore making him worthy to remove the speck in your eye, but the log in your own is shutting him out and blinding you from seeing it.

 

Romans 2:1-8

 

(1-3) Paul's rebuke to "judging" others, in the following verses.

 

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things. Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?

 

(4-8) Paul now presumably does what he just said not to do, as he "judges" others in the following verses.

 

Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

 

---

 

In fact... is not Paul's advice to people that they should not judge (verses 1-3), as he appears to be rebuking the recipients of the message, in and of itself a judgment, as he judges those who are judging? And so, I rest my case.

 

"Do not judge," or faulty judgment is always associated with hypocrisy. That's a large part of what makes the judgment wrong. Honestly, if we are to never judge a matter other than ourselves, then we can expect that Godly men in the Bible will never offer their advice about anything seen happening, without a rebuke from God to following right behind. We should expect to see no judgment in the Bible by men towards other men, when they see that which is offensive unless they first ASKED for their opinion by the offender (which you will so commonly see regarded as proper by many people). However, we constantly see the opposite done throughout the OT and the writings in the NT. If judgment is not hypocritical, then you are free to see clearly and remove the speck from your brothers eyes. Judging is beneficial--we shouldn't always do it, and of course God will reveal things to others hearts that we can not. But, to say we should clam up and never judge is incredibly off; as is it a task that we are to perform as Christians.

 

Revelations 2:2-3

 

"'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary.

 

Here Jesus lays out a commendation for those who are "enduring patiently and bear up," for His name's sake. He commends the judgment of them that have tested those who call themselves apostles, but are not.

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"Love of hellfire."  :lmao:   Classic.  May I borrow that line?

 

Sure. I hope you can make some money with it. :-)

 

Actually, I think it's one of the rebukes God has of Christians. Read it in Isaiah 28, especially verse 15. I think the "drunkards of Ephraim" is code language for the leaders of Christendom who are inebriated from bad teachings (wine is a consistent symbol of teachings). Jesus couldn't put his new teachings in the old wineskins of the traditionalists of his day. But now it's the Christian traditionalists who have old wineskins, and bad wine in them. And the worst teaching of all is this hell garbage.

 

Twice in my travels on college campuses (I do admissions videos among other things) I have observed an old Christian harangue the young folks about their morals, their music, their movies, their lack of "true religion". He picks fights and gets 'em mad, and tells 'em all they're goin to hell. He gets his thrills from getting them to cuss at him, or laugh at him -- the more they argue, the more he enjoys the spectacle. And his children are there, dressed in their "plain" clothes, no doubt tormented inside by the foolishness of their dad, while Brother "J___"s heavenly father is ... what? enjoying the scene? feeling the love? I don't think so. God's advantage is that he doesn't care what anyone thinks. He has a plan for Brother "J___" and for all the folks he has stirred up against God. Not the real God, mind you, but the iconic God-figure, the God-caricature, that J___ is painting in people's minds, without the artistry of a Dante or a Dore. Yes, there's a brother who loves hell, and is quite in agreement. And the reason why that idea is, happily, dying worldwide, is because God has turned up the light all over the world, and it turned out that it was the Christian church that didn't want to have the light turned up.

 

Not that there aren't some real heroes among Christians. There are. But they're the few, the good fruitage. The rest are going to feel some mighty big hail from heaven, and all the lies that aren't founded on the word of God, whether Christian or non-Christian lies, are going to get flattened.

 

But the people will still be valued and will learn valuable lessons from that experience.

 

(clipping out)

 

And THIS is where you lose me.  Where are you getting this interpretation from?  What scriptural proof do you use to support your view?  It sounds lovely, but I've never seen it in the bible.

 

Just looking at the first 3 chapters and the last 3 chapters of the Bible side-by-side (Genesis 1-3 vs Revelation 20-22), there are clear claims made about the cause of human existence and suffering, and of the end of human suffering but not human existence. Several plot elements and characters are introduced, and the resolution of those elements and characters is presented. It's the ultimate "and they all lived happily ever after" story.

 

I think it's time for bed....

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You forgot -

 

1 Corinthians 2:15

The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

 

and

 

John 7:24

Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

 

and

 

1 Corinthians 6:2

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

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Interesting Serenity that no one has replied to this.

102768[/snapback]

 

Of course not. The Christians who are guilty of these sins are ashamed that an unbeliever knows the "law" better than them. However, I'm willing to bet that these sins will not be seen so much now that they have been pointed out.

102926[/snapback]

 

Hardly. The ignorance of a non-believe who, as is the case here, has had such a great oppertunity to recieve Christ but rejects Him still, rarely brings any conviction whatsoever. Without Christ, I do not believe you will ever understand anything that preaches Christ. Until you open the door and meet Christ personally, you will only be listening through one that is closed, catching broken speach and muffled words. It is these pieces that will draw a man to open the door, if he likes what he hears. If he does not like what he hears, he'll be pushed away. Since you have not opened the door after all this time, it can only be said that you have walked away. Obviously, you have yet to believe.

 

I come before you, brother, as a Christian, to answer your post in the presence of these observers. I believe you are missing some things in the Bible about God's love, grace, and plan, and that if you could re-examine God's word you could discover a whole new insight into what God is doing in you and in the world.

 

First, let me say that you need not treat unbelievers in this forum with such an air of futility. Why are they unbelievers? Some were born in unbelief, as stated in 2 Corinthians 4:4. This is a dark world, and if a fetus survives abortion by its mother, diseases such as AIDS or alcohol syndrome it might have gotten from its father, poverty from its society, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other "acts of God", it maybe will live long enough to wonder who God is, and whether he exists. And depending what the adults in this life told her, this child may grow up either totally ignorant of the existence of God, or totally ignorant of what his name and character is. Roughly 25% of the babies who survive to adulthood, grow up with a "Christian" concept. Do most of these really know Jesus and God personally? I'm guessing you would agree with me, that only a small percentage of them do. The rest are basically Christianized idolaters, not true believers.

 

Perhaps the majority of the folks on this site have been believers before -- some of the them have been pastors, even, or sunday school teachers, or deacons or whatever. Others have gone to church, and then observed some bitter painful experience that soured them on anything purporting to be Christian. That's why I agree with the relevance of your signature scripture -- because iniquity shall abound the love of many will wax cold. Where will iniquity abound? Jesus is referring to the church itself. Because sin and hypocrisy are so commonplace in the church that claims to be Christ's followers, the love of many does indeed wax cold.

 

So far, I would hope we're tracking together in our thinking.

 

When the door is opened, Christ is met and the Spirit received.  With the Spirit of God inside, the door open, you can clearly hear and clearly see what once came to you in only pieces of speech, through a thick and sound breaking door.  I know this from personal experience. Jesus said though, that He stands at the door and knocks, and whoever opens the door He would come in and sup with them, and they with Him.  This is crucial.  If you don't do this, you are just listening to Him knocking... listening to Him talking.  If you are on the outside... who are you to teach those who are on the inside, how to be inside?  I look at those around me on the inside, wondering of your sanity as you try to convince us of the methods it takes to be inside the love of God.  But, aren't you outside?  Come join us then, and we will both learn to understand.

 

You seem to be referring to the famous passage of Revelation 3, where Jesus speaks of himself as standing at the door, knocking. Time and again as I have attended evangelical churches the teachers apply these verses to Jesus knocking on the doors of a sinner's heart, begging him to open their hearts to Jesus before it's "too late."

 

But if you look carefully at the context of that passage, it should be clear that the whole thing is spoken by Jesus TO THE CHURCHES. This is a message of rebuke to the 7th and last stage of the Christian Church, which I believe we are now living in. I think these verses apply for roughly the last century, and they mean this: that the Christian church in modern times thinks its rich spiritually, thinks it has everything it needs, thinks it can convert the world, thinks it has been clothed in fine linen of Christ's righteousness. But Jesus wants them to open the door and let him in, to share a feast of new insights with them. But they don't let him in, they reject new insights into what the Bible says, and they don't realize that they are actually shameful in the way they treat each other and treat outsiders. They need fresh clean clothing, they need eye-salve so they can see better, they need more of God's purified golden character in their lives. Instead of bugging the world, offering a watered down discipleship and a world-friendly, clubhouse religiosity, they should focus on the weighty matters and learn to pay attention to the many sins within the Christian church. What are these sins?

Some, the sins of the institutional church, are enumerated in Revelation 17 and 18. These include false traditions, false teachings, oppression of dissenting saints, schism, trading influence for money, misrepresenting God, oppressing the poor all the while they claim to help the poor. Historically, the institutional Christian church has given the world slavery, intolerance, and the Holocaust. God is preparing to permit human forces which themselves are not righteous to carry out a retribution that he will be glad to see.

 

Don't judge me!

 

Speck in your brother's eye; log in your eye.

 

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?  You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

 

Some of you might be going, "Yeah... jerks think they can judge me.  Who do they think they are anyways?  You can't judge me, that's God's job and Jesus is saying so.  Who are you to remove my speck?  I am the way I am and it's not your job to change me.  Amen to this, Amen!"  This would be a poor statement, due to a poor interpretation of what is being said here by Jesus.  In fact, the thought that another is unworthy to judge you because they have a "log in their eye," is *in and of itself* a judgment you have made about them; whereby, contridicting your own interpreation of this scripture--because you have just judged them, and their eye full of logs unworthy of judging you.

 

Do not automatically assume someone has a log in their eye, and therefore is unworthy of giving you advice.  When you are judged, it just might be the log in your own eye that tells you not to listen, because the person "judging" is hypocrite for doing so.  Judgment is not automatically associated with hypocrisy; however, in our own loggy eyes, we often assume a log in our judgers eye, because our eyes are full of giant logs of pride that call all advisors hypocrites unworthy to give us advice. -- Judgment is not by default associated with hypocrisy.  So, do not treat it as so when you are judged by others.

 

It is inaccurate to assume that everyone trying to remove a speck from your eye, has a log in their eye.  Jesus is not saying, "never take the speck out of your brother's eye."  Jesus is actually saying *quite the opposite.*  Don't believe me?  Just read what He said. "Take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

 

So, you understand that Jesus is rebuking, and encouraging the exact same action at the exact same time.  He encourages us *to judge,* AND, He encourages us *not to judge* simultaneously.  He tells the hypocrite, look at your own sin.  He also encourages us to see clearly, and to remove the speck from our brother's eye.  He does not say, "don't ever do it" (point out sin, judge, remove specks).  In fact, he encourages it, if you have removed the log from your eye.

 

Do not assume your brother has a log in his eye and that he is a hypocrite just because he is trying to assist in removing some sinful activity in your life.  Maybe he has already removed the log in his eye, therefore making him worthy to remove the speck in your eye, but the log in your own is shutting him out and blinding you from seeing it.

 

Romans 2:1-8

 

(1-3) Paul's rebuke to "judging" others, in the following verses.

 

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things.  Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?

 

It's amazing to me that Christians persist in using Romans 1 and 2 as a hammer to hit non-Christians with, when it was written by a Christian to Christians in order to tell them not to judge each other or their fellow-men. It slices in every direction and leaves all people guilty.

 

Note what Romans 1 and 2 says, and what it does not say.

 

It says in 1:16-18 that the wrath or judicial anger of God is visible, manifest, easily seen by all people. Everyone can see that if there is a god, he is an angry fellow, because people are constantly suffering and dying, without a clear "quid pro quo" in evidence. As often as not, better people suffer more than worse sinners.

 

It also says in those verses that the righteousness of God -- his fairness, his true loving designs and good qualities -- is only revealed "from Faith to faith". I think this means that if someone is a believer, it is a miracle, really -- an it is the direct result of the intervention or gift of God. Faith is a gift, as Romans 12 makes clear.

 

Then he says that when people knew God... repeat: WHEN PEOPLE KNEW GOD -- they did not glorify God and submit to him, but preferred to believe The Lie (Satan's lie) rather than the Truth, and preferred to serve the Creature (Satan) rather than the Creator.

 

Now, when did people know God?

 

People knew God in the garden of Eden, and the generations following. For the first 2000 years of human history a few generations overlapped each other so completely that 3 people spanned from Adam to Noah. Yet by Noah's day only 8 souls believed and obeyed God. The rest had completely damaged their genetic material and their morals through intermarriage with fallen angels. The earth was "filled" with sex and violence. This is Paul's point. The point is that when people knew God, they didn't obey him. So no one can kick about the hereditary curse of humanity which God has placed us all under.

 

Two more times that I can think of a large number of people knew God. These times were the generations immediately following the flood, when the world was repopulating itself and had a memory of the deluge for several hundred years.... and after the Jewish people left Egypt. They, too, knew God and saw his power, if the Bible can be believed, and I think it can. Both of those groups of people knew God, but did not choose to submit to him or "retain him in their knowledge". So again, it is fair and even desirable that God would levy a penalty upon this race of mankind which has such a rebellious streak.

 

Psalm 107 states that when folks rebel against God, he brings affliction in order to bring people to their senses. This is actually a gracious thing, a good thing, when we adopt the long view of history, because it turns out that the troubles of the human race have taught everyone about their personal limitations and the futility of a rebellious or self-centered lifestyle.

 

Romans 1:32 states clearly that the penalty for any and all kinds of disobedience is simple -- death. Not hell, mind you, but simply death. So the period of human history has been the working out of a penalty, death, upon all men.

 

But the wrath of God has been revealed, brother. It is visible. Hell is not visible, in fact, it's very meaning is "unseen". The wrath of God, disease and death, is indeed quite visible, and it hounds people right up to the moment they enter the grave. Then, as the Bible says, they are asleep ... the weary can finally rest in the grave.

 

 

 

(4-8) Paul now presumably does what he just said not to do, as he "judges" others in the following verses.

 

Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

 

---[/unquote]

 

Now we come to the simple justice of God. He renders to people according to their works. He does not do as Augustine said, punish 10 or 50 or 100 years of occasional or even constant disobedience with 1000 or 1 million or 1 billion years of eternal, constant pain and anguish without the possibility of repentance. No, God has a simple proposition: obey and live, disobey and die. The same proposition that Adam faced will ultimately be faced by everyone. "He that eats the sour grape, his teeth will be set on edge". (Jeremiah 31:29-30)

 

As I read Romans, Paul is simply stating that some are drawn to God, by his power and grace. They are then free to act in a righteous way and, by faith, inherit everlasting life. They are not inheriting eternal life immediately without cooperation, because they need to gain a character of righteous obedience. Nor do they inherit eternal life BECAUSE of their righteousness or good works. They are called to good works but not made perfect or acceptable by good works. Ephesians 2:10.

 

It seems to me that when you defend your right to argue or cajole with unbelievers about their sin, you are mistaken. I think the point of Romans 2 is that true believers are those who are dealing with their sins now. They are not pointing fingers at others, but are shouldering much responsibility for their own sins, though happily not having to bear the full weight, which would be crushing and impossible to bear without the blood of Christ shed on our behalf. Unbelievers, on the other hand, are "treasuring up" wrath -- basically storing up their judicial wrath to be dealt with in the future, during the judgement day. But that does not mean the judgment day will be endless, or impossible to respond to. The more a person commits adultery, say, or lies to himself or his family, the more his character will be damaged, and the more judicial judgment he'll have to undergo to be cleansed as it is promised he will be cleansed during the time of Messiah's rule. But the Christian should not waste his time troubling believers now. 2 Corinthians 10:1-6 points out that our own obedience must be completed before we could ever think to be useful in taking any kind of judicial revenge on someone else's disobedience.

 

Remember -- the whole reason why Christians are being developed is so that they can be prepared to be a fair, merciful, righteous judge in the next age -- not so they can smash and destroy and punish, but so that they can use tough love combined with tender love to bring healing and correction to the entire world of mankind.

 

So I disagree with the sentiment I'm getting from your post-- that you have the right to keep hounding unbelievers for not seeing Jesus as their savior. That will come in "due time" -- after their passing, most likely, when they are resurrected and the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth like the waters cover the sea. It's clear to me that the good news is only being shared with a relative few at the present time, for their personal growth and change -- not for the currently impossible job of converting the world.

 

Remember when some folks were not accepting the disciples' message? The apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven like they'd read about Moses doing, and burn 'em. And Jesus said, "you don't know what spirit you are of." I think we need to keep using the winsome, "take it or leave it" approach that characterized Jesus' ministry. He used his miracles to draw crowds and his parables and dark sayings to send most of them away. That's just the way it is supposed to be right now. Especially after 2000 years of Christian church history have left such a bad taste in people's mouths. That's why we're in the post-Christian era. Because Christianity had its 15 minutes of fame, and the church sought it's own power and privilege and oppressed the poor countries of the world. Just look at Africa. They're still lying prostrate because of "Christian" nations' exploitation. So as individual Christians, now it's time to review all our lessons and discover what we've missed, and open the doors of our Christian hearts to Christ's knock.

 

I'm starting to ramble so I'll wind this up. Thanks for listening.

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You must understand how difficult it is first to think that people will be in hell, it doesn't sound like a place I would want an enemy to be in. Second it is very difficult for me, who loves and adores my God, to see His name mocked and cursed which brings out arrogance in me when I can show you that you have no right to mock him. How Christ stood there and allowed himself to be mocked and beaten and hung on a cross accused of being a liar when he welded the entire universe in his hand, and all because he was trying to build a bridge for us to be reconciled back to God that is so Holy and Just we cannot begin to understand how different we are in comparison. I know personally why a human could never do that feat had we even a portion of that heritage and power, I cannot even do that in a debate and all I weld is an ability to reason.

 

The Bible says that teachers are subject to a greater judgement than others because what we teach incorrectly can have an influence in someone having the truth or not, but also the consequence of causing others to reject that false image that lives in the shadow of what should have been truth. This is where I see many of you walking away from your faith, you found supposed error, and were taught falsehoods. I do think Christianity at large is guilty of this, they do not teach correctly the truths in the Bible from the Genesis record to the birth of Christ to Revelations; they have left it to a few to explain the scriptures rather than searching for themselves. They do not live it either. They don't have the time to be bothered and are content to show up on Sunday, help others occasionaly, but never truly teach the lost the way we are commanded. Many have never even followed what is required of us to accept the gift of salvation the way God spelled it out for us and even after He lived the example. Christians feel that going into foreign soils fulfills that commandment and our neighbors and co-workers are hopelessly lost. They have lost their compassion for the people around them.

 

Christianity was spread by touching the lives of those whom were in your circle, and yes, the apostles went to great distances, but they reached a few and those few reached millions by teaching their family and friends. If everyone is going to get a second chance, why bother? Some are needed to reach to the ends of the earth, but others are needed at home to do the same. Many in power have welded a twisted truth and caused multitudes to turn away. We are warned to constantly test the truth and to test each other but each has hedged themselves in by doctrine and creed, the higher critics have reduced the Bible to analogies and borrowed ideas from myths, authors busy themselves on creating their own myths, so called prophets receive revelations that are in contradiction to what has already been recieved, and the Books of the Bible sit with dust while most are told to reverance it but not read it and the pulpits are bare of scripture readings, books are written claiming contradictions when it is not the word of God that is in contradiction or in error, it is the translation and interpretation that is in error.

 

Hearing the word is received differently than reading it or being taught concepts about it. The Bible says the Word of God is living and does not return void. ExChristians are more familar with the scriptures than that of the Christian and lest we offend a brother we are told to be tolerant of others beliefs from within to the point that truth is not tested. How dare we think we might be teaching something in error. Yes, I see it. I know that just as the Bible says many will be shocked to find they are not saved, and it is not that they didn't have the resources to know the truth, those people will not be judged by the same standards required of us that have access to the scriptures, it is because they did not think it was important to know the truth and lived a falsehood without ever questioning it.

 

My confidence comes out in arrogance, and I'm sorry, it is a fault I have a difficult time overcoming. However, if you will really examine how you treat believers on here, you would see why we are provoked, too. I am not here to mock you, I am here to share what I know, that every challenge I have taken on in defense of the scriptures cannot fail, if I have examined the scriptures the way they were intended and refered back to the original languages. That takes work, study, prayer, testing, and I try to test with those that do this with the same passion but have more time than I do. I don't want to be wrong, but it is really more than that, I don't want to teach you something wrong that you can turn around and say," see; there's another falsehood, we are right not to trust the scriptures!" Then I am gulity of teaching a falsehood and pushing you even further away.

 

I truly believe that more Christians should have been taught the original Greek and Hebrew so they are able to comprehend it; for us to have a better collective understanding of scripture. I am endeavoring to do this myself. At least every teacher should be required to do this. Teachers should be required to do more. We must understand the scriptures with regard to judgement and "heaven" (which is to be established on earth after it is remade) and hell. These are not taught, they are thought to be beyond our understanding and if they are mentioned, it is usually incorrectly. Thus, many have been pushed away from salvation rather than drawn to it. I would be interested in a study of the judgement and hell and heaven with believers and unbelievers who search the scriptures even though our motivations might be from opposite sides, at least we have this one thing in common, we are all in search of the truth.

 

I have been taught one way but I find another in the scriptures, while I believe those that believe are not always in danger in their incorrect understanding for some points that have little bearing on salvation, I believe they are in danger of judgement if they teach some untruth and in turn that pushes someone away. I hear many say hell pushes them away and yet I also know humanity. For example, I am in conversation with a Satanist, a young man still in school. He said he wants to kill everyone in his class except for a few of his friends. He has been abused by his parents and rejected at school because of his class standing in society and his differences in appearance. He tells us the only thing that prevents him from killing people is that he does not want to go to jail. The threat of jail is real enough to him to stop him, at least until his anger grow so great that it doesn't matter anymore. What he really needs is love and acceptance which several of us are trying to show him but that real threat is not a bad thing, it protects him and others.

 

In the same way our God may have used hell, which was meant for an openly rebellious set of angels, to motivate us to live the way he designed for us. Yet I know He is also capable of such great mercy, he even gave his son for our behalf. He is so just that there had to be an attonement and no one was able to provide that except a part of him. It is an impossible concept for humans to grab hold of, we are torn so many ways in trying to understand it. I do not see in the scriptures that in the 1000 year reign there will be a second chance to those that were unbelievers or in error and still under judgement. I think it is very, very dangerous to give an unbeliever that hope if it is not true. I see our lives as a test of love, love for our creator and love for fellow humans. In my heart of hearts I would wish for such a chance. There are verses that speak of us judging angels and I have often thought, how could I do that being a sinner forgiven myself?

 

However, wishful thinking is not enough substance for me to believe it possible, you would have to show me this in the thread of scriptures without contradiction of any of the prophesies relating to the end times and the judgement. There can be no contradiction in the inspired books of the Bible, if there is, it is an untruth, for the true word of a God has no room for error, ever, it cannot be edited to cover an error or changed to suit someones ideas of something better. What errors you think there are, I have found them to be either an error in understanding due to interpretation or translation or that it cannot be considered an inspired book to begin with by historical and literary examination and evidences that show someone wrote it falsely. It doesn't pass the test from within or without. I have tested the flood, historic evidences, and much of the prophesy, in what we consider inspired in the non-Catholic canon. I have begun to approach it's extra books as well.

 

At this point please don't throw a hundred objections in some kind of hysteria over that statement, I hope to take them apart one by one but I am missing sleep to be here right now, my schedule is very demanding, and I do have sick baby on my shoulder whom caught a virus from my friend's child who is staying with us. That is the reality of my life, I can do two things at once so I am here. God has seen fit to bless me with four children of my own which I homeschool, one is a baby and one is in highschool at 15 and is ready to take college courses this winter, they are involved in everything from sports to music and art lessons so that our afternoons are in constant motion, and I teach literature and sciences to other people's children, and also I am a college student myself in pursuit of a degree in educational psychology, plus I have involvement in our community because I believe that we are called to be servants, I am working on a fund raiser for another outreach, and I am in the process of the beginning stages of founding a private school and my husband has three busnesses of his own that require something of me at times and he has his extended family involved in his businesses, and my cup runs over with blessings of people.

 

People take time. I wish I didn't need sleep but there is nothing I wish to give up, this included. I am NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT telling you these things to make myself look good, I am telling you because I am trying the best I can to get to your questions. I have answers for some of them but I am running it by wiser minds than mine because I do not want to make an error at your expense. If I can answer something quickly, I will.

 

So, what proofs can you show me in the scriptures that what you say with regard to this second chance is true? Maybe I have missed something. I'm not perfect.

 

If you read this God Bless You!

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Since I feel much of the disagreement here has likely come from misunderstanding perhaps, due to unfamiliarity with what exactly I am actually trying to express in what I've said... Rather than argue about it, I'll just say thanks for sharing (I don't mean that sarcastically).

 

Because, even in the apparent disagreement, knowing the view you are disagreeing with (whether or not it is actually the one I intended to portray, which I don't believe it to be), I am able to gather insight from the argument you make against that said viewpoint you believe to have found in the post.

 

Rather than spend the next 3 hours going back and forth elaborating on eachothers understanding, I'm willing to accept it as it is, smile, and say "cheers."

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