A lesson for Christians on Judging and Hypocrisy

[zfunkman]

Ipray,

 

 

I am here for a mix of reasons; part wanting to make sure I have the truth and second as a Christian, if I have the truth, then I want to share it.

 

Christianity is not based on TRUTH, it is based on FAITH. When you come in here claiming to have the TRUTH you are telling a bold faced LIE.

 

The feeling I am getting from the majority is that you have already made up your mind and there is nothing I can do that might change it.

 

Just a reminder to you; We have all been christians, we have read the bible, walked the path, been in "your shoes." We made up our minds to become christians and after reading, studying and analyzing the bible we changed our minds and became ex-christians. The idea that any intelligent person can read the bible and believe in it is, well, almost "unbelievable."

[Mythra]

In the interest of honesty and accuracy, Daniel, do you mind if I make a little insertion into your narrative? I mean, you should be used to interpolations. You read em everyday in your life guide. One difference though. I'm a fairly honest guy. I'll italicize what I insert - unlike sorting through the dishonest bible tweakers in the second and third centuries.

 

Revelations, according to christian tradition, was a book written by a Christian, John, on the Island of Patmos.

Now then. You really need to do a little more homework, little christchild.

 

Biblical scholars who have examined the writing styles and wording used in the Gospel of John, The Epistles of John, and the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) have concluded that the same person wrote the Gospel and the Epistles, but it was not the same person who authored Revelation.

 

Are you aware that Eusebius, in the fourth century, claimed that Revelation was spurious, and denied its authenticity, i.e. he did not believe that it was written by the Apostle John.

 

Are you aware that Dionysius of Alexandria (190 - 270 CE) said the following about it: "some indeed of those before our time rejected and altogether impugned the book, examining it chapter by chapter, and declaring it to be unintelligible, and illogical, and its title false. For they say that it is not John's, no nor yet an apocalypse (i.e. an unveiling), since it is veiled by its heavy, thick curtain of its unitelligibility, and that the author of the book was not one of the apostles, nor even one of the saints or those belonging to the church, but Cerinthus, the same who created the sect called Cerinthian, after him, since he desired to affix to his own forgery a name worthy of credit" H.E. 6.25 1-2.

 

But don't pay too much attention to any of this, daniel..

 

It's much easier to say that revelation was written by the Apostle John on the Island of Patmos.

 

Just write all of this off as anti-christian ramblings.

[Kryten]

So Daniel, I take it you worship on Saturday, as God commanded over and over and over and over and over and over and over again? Hell, it even made it onto the graven image of the Ten Commandments belonging to that Judge down south!

So which is it for you? Saturday or some other day?? Maybe Sunday (which was the established day of worship of other religions when Christianity was trying to gain acceptance)??

[D. Paul]

Your lesson on Judging:  Coming here to debate is one thing, but some of you come in here saying your with the heathens and bad-mouthing us and poking fun (you know who you are)...YOU are going against explicit instructions of your holy book that you claim to follow. 

 

Matthew 7 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Luke 6  37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

 

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

 

Romans 2 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

 

Now, just to make sure that I have "interpreted" these few scriptures correctly, I'll give the following from Paul........

 

1 Corinthians 5:11-13

11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

 

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[a]

 

Another area that NT authors claim Jesus taught against is hypocrisy.  Let me give you the definition of a hypocrite:  : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion

 

When you come here and try and give us your "absolutes" while at the same time making cracks on us and being ugly, you are being disobedient to the bibles clear instructions.  Need I put down all the hypocrisy scriptures?  I don't give a crap if you get ugly or not, BUT, I do know the bible and what it commands of it's followers.  Your Jesus didn't go to the sinners and call them low lifes or heathens or even speak at them of how bad it hurt him that they didn't believe.  Nor do the gospels record your Jesus as saying that he was gearing up to go in with the lions. For a man you claim to follow; many of you "Christians" are doing a pretty sorry ass job of following him.

102668[/snapback]

 

Point taken. Frustration often leads to, shall we say, uncharitable responses. Apologies rightfully requested and offered.

 

Now, since it is acknowleged that scripture is authoritative to suit that particular purpose, may the request be made that it applies to you in Gen 1:1, Exodus 20:3, Romans 1:18-22 etc? Doubtful.

[Checkmate]

Point taken. Frustration often leads to, shall we say, uncharitable responses. Apologies rightfully requested and offered.

 

Now, since it is acknowleged that scripture is authoritative to suit that particular purpose, may the request be made that it applies to you in Gen 1:1, Exodus 20:3, Romans 1:18-22 etc? Doubtful.

105098[/snapback]

Hello again, D. Paul. Apology accepted.

 

But as to your second point? You are correct. NOTHING in YOUR bible is applicable to US, since it is not WE who place stock in it. Since YOU claim to believe and obey it, it is therefore your "cross to bear", if you will.

 

Asking us to obey your bible, in which we don't believe, would be ludicrous, don't you think? Would you obey the Qur'an, in which you don't believe? I sincerely doubt it.

[D. Paul]

Point taken. Frustration often leads to, shall we say, uncharitable responses. Apologies rightfully requested and offered.

 

Now, since it is acknowleged that scripture is authoritative to suit that particular purpose, may the request be made that it applies to you in Gen 1:1, Exodus 20:3, Romans 1:18-22 etc? Doubtful.

105098[/snapback]

Hello again, D. Paul. Apology accepted.

 

But as to your second point? You are correct. NOTHING in YOUR bible is applicable to US, since it is not WE who place stock in it. Since YOU claim to believe and obey it, it is therefore your "cross to bear", if you will.

 

Asking us to obey your bible, in which we don't believe, would be ludicrous, don't you think? Would you obey the Qur'an, in which you don't believe? I sincerely doubt it.

105109[/snapback]

If it means nothing to you, then you have no use for it against anyone. it either applies or it doesn't. Otherwise, you're holding me to a standard which is no standard. How is that compelling logic?

[Checkmate]

...........

If it means nothing to you, then you have no use for it against anyone. it either applies or it doesn't. Otherwise, you're holding me to a standard which is no standard. How is that compelling logic?

105116[/snapback]

Not very compelling or logical. SerenityNow has correctly pointed out the necessity for those who profess to BELIEVE in the Bible, be the ones to OBEY said bible. THAT is logical.

 

For you to claim that it is somehow WRONG for us to have this LOGICAL expectation of you is erroneous.

 

YOU say you believe in the bible. We are merely holding you to your words of profession. How is that illogical?

 

We are holding you to a standard that YOU claim exists FOR YOU. If such a standard doesn't exist, then simply say so. This is not OUR dilemma, but yours.

[Cerise]

If it means nothing to you, then you have no use for it against anyone. it either applies or it doesn't. Otherwise, you're holding me to a standard which is no standard. How is that compelling logic?

 

 

It applies to you because you believe in its authority. It does not apply to us because we do not. What is so illogical about that?

 

Can I hold a police officer to the standard of serving and protecting me even if I'm not a police officer myself? Sure I can. That's in the job description.

 

Can I hold a Christian to obeying the rules of the bible even if I'm not a Christian? Sure I can. That's in YOUR job description.

[Checkmate]

It applies to you because you believe in its authority.  It does not apply to us because we do not.  What is so illogical about that?

 

Can I hold a police officer to the standard of serving and protecting me even if I'm not a police officer myself?  Sure I can.  That's in the job description.

 

Can I hold a Christian to obeying the rules of the bible even if I'm not a Christian?  Sure I can.  That's in YOUR job description.

105125[/snapback]

Great analogy, Cerise. And if I might amplify?

 

The police officer MUST obey the law, even when dealing with those who break the law. Simply because the criminals don't respect the law, it does not give the police officer the right to disregard those same laws.

 

Officers of the LAW are held to higher and exacting standards BY the LAW. And it makes no nevermind what everyone else thinks or does.

[SkepticOfBible]

[

Revelations was a book written by a Christian, John, on the Island of Patmos.

 

....

Why would John, a Christian, receive word from Jesus and write about Jews?  Hrm, well this is interesting, but of course when Jew is referred to, that is to say God's people -- just as God had intended it to be.  I don't forsee Zech as a problem at all, and I'm quite sure many preachers have given a message/study on it.  In fact, I think I will look into it now.  Thanks for it.

104623[/snapback]

 

 

Incidently the Book of Revelation is not even considered part of the Eastern Orthodox Church

 

I await for you research

[daniel_1012]

[

Revelations was a book written by a Christian, John, on the Island of Patmos.

 

....

Why would John, a Christian, receive word from Jesus and write about Jews?  Hrm, well this is interesting, but of course when Jew is referred to, that is to say God's people -- just as God had intended it to be.  I don't forsee Zech as a problem at all, and I'm quite sure many preachers have given a message/study on it.  In fact, I think I will look into it now.  Thanks for it.

104623[/snapback]

 

 

Incidently the Book of Revelation is not even considered part of the Eastern Orthodox Church

 

I await for you research

105178[/snapback]

 

Well, the verse is already self explaining. Jews are God's people... always have been. They are not a race of people. Real Jews, are God's people, which are Christians. John refers to us, Christians, as real Jews. I'm not researching it for the purpose of removing it's error or something, that much is done.

[crazy-tiger]

Well, the verse is already self explaining.  Jews are God's people... always have been.  They are not a race of people.  Real Jews, are God's people, which are Christians.  John refers to us, Christians, as real Jews.  I'm not researching it for the purpose of removing it's error or something, that much is done.

105285[/snapback]

The Jews may well be God's people, but Christians aren't...

Christians profess a belief that violates God's Laws, follow a false Prophet, and worship an Idol.

[Guest Guest_serenitynow_*]

Well, the verse is already self explaining.  Jews are God's people... always have been.  They are not a race of people.  Real Jews, are God's people, which are Christians.  John refers to us, Christians, as real Jews.  I'm not researching it for the purpose of removing it's error or something, that much is done.

105285[/snapback]

 

Now you have also revealed yet another ugly side to yourself, you are under the false belief in Replacement Theology. Jews are jews, everyone else is a stranger that joins themselves with the jews.

[Vigile]

If it means nothing to you, then you have no use for it against anyone. it either applies or it doesn't. Otherwise, you're holding me to a standard which is no standard. How is that compelling logic?

105116[/snapback]

 

No one is holding you to any standard except you. We are merely pointing out hypocrisy exhibited by some xtians here. Fundamentalists claim that all scripture is applicable to them so when they openly break the rules in their own book that's hypocritical, don't you think?

[D. Paul]

If it means nothing to you, then you have no use for it against anyone. it either applies or it doesn't. Otherwise, you're holding me to a standard which is no standard. How is that compelling logic?

 

 

It applies to you because you believe in its authority. It does not apply to us because we do not. What is so illogical about that?

 

Can I hold a police officer to the standard of serving and protecting me even if I'm not a police officer myself? Sure I can. That's in the job description.

 

Can I hold a Christian to obeying the rules of the bible even if I'm not a Christian? Sure I can. That's in YOUR job description.

105125[/snapback]

It applies because it is authoritative whether you like it or not. Your choosing to "disbelieve" it does nothing to it's authority. But we've been here before and gone round and round...

[D. Paul]

If it means nothing to you, then you have no use for it against anyone. it either applies or it doesn't. Otherwise, you're holding me to a standard which is no standard. How is that compelling logic?

 

 

It applies to you because you believe in its authority. It does not apply to us because we do not. What is so illogical about that?

 

Can I hold a police officer to the standard of serving and protecting me even if I'm not a police officer myself? Sure I can. That's in the job description.

 

Can I hold a Christian to obeying the rules of the bible even if I'm not a Christian? Sure I can. That's in YOUR job description.

105125[/snapback]

And what if I choose to beleive the officer has no such authority. Does it mean he has relinquished said authority. Again, you opinion of it and disbelief means nothing to the authority of God and His Word.

[crazy-tiger]

It applies to you because you believe in its authority.  It does not apply to us because we do not.  What is so illogical about that?

 

Can I hold a police officer to the standard of serving and protecting me even if I'm not a police officer myself?  Sure I can.  That's in the job description.

 

Can I hold a Christian to obeying the rules of the bible even if I'm not a Christian?  Sure I can.  That's in YOUR job description.

105125[/snapback]

It applies because it is authoritative whether you like it or not. Your choosing to "disbelieve" it does nothing to it's authority. But we've been here before and gone round and round...

105477[/snapback]

The Quran is authorative whether you like it or not. Your choosing not to believe it does nothing to it's authority.

That means we should all be held to the authority of the Quran as well.

 

The Tanach is authorative whether you like it or not. Your choosing not to believe it does nothing to it's authority.

That means we should all be held to the authority of the Tanach as well.

 

 

 

That exact same argument works with every single religion. Why don't you try an argument that WORKS?

[MQTA]

 

 

That exact same argument works with every single religion. Why don't you try an argument that WORKS?

105480[/snapback]

 

No need for WORKS when ya have faith

[crazy-tiger]

That exact same argument works with every single religion. Why don't you try an argument that WORKS?

105480[/snapback]

No need for WORKS when ya have faith

105490[/snapback]

 

 

Hang on... My uncle has faith but also needs WORKS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Microsoft WORKS, that is.

[MQTA]

 

Hang on... My uncle has faith but also needs WORKS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Microsoft WORKS, that is.

105499[/snapback]

 

I have no faith in WORKS so I use the Word.

 

It's not perfect but it does Excel over Works.

 

When it crashes, it does it with Grace.

 

Sometimes it has a Will of it's own.

[Guest Guest_serenitynow_*]

It applies because it is authoritative whether you like it or not. Your choosing to "disbelieve" it does nothing to it's authority. But we've been here before and gone round and round...

105477[/snapback]

 

Daniel, could you please show me scriptures and references where the bible says that unbelievers (other than who choose biblegod) are under it's authority? I'd really love to see that. I see nowhere in the bible where the entire world is to be a theocracy....until that is the "real" messiah is flesh and blood visible to all.

 

Titus 3

 

1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.

 

1 Peter 2:12-14

 

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

 

 

As shown above, I can find verses that say you are to submit to human authority, but not one verse in favor of a theocracy....not ONE. Unless one joins themselves to your beliefs, we are not subject to a thing from your bible.

[Vixentrox]

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

 

105510[/snapback]

 

Does this include Mistress and Masters? hehe.

[diggin]

You must understand how difficult it is first to think that people will be in hell, it doesn't sound like a place I would want an enemy to be in.

...

103463[/snapback]

That's funny. Because then you don't know God, and you don't have the heart of God.

 

God want's his enemy to be in Hell. Both the Devil... and us... Why do you pretend to have more love and mercy than God himself?

103616[/snapback]

 

Brilliant, HanSolo.

 

You are understanding Calvinism perfectly.

 

Kudos.

[diggin]

Then I will leave because I am not doing any good.  I hope that diggin has the truth, I'm not sure that you will have a second chance but perhaps you can continue to explore that to ensure you are right.  I will do that myself and if I find I am in error, I will do what I can to change what is taught by others, too.  Thank you for allowing me to visit.  See you on the other side.

103551[/snapback]

 

Since we probably won't cross paths again easily, let me suggest two things:

 

1. Assume that most things you learn in church or from Christian leaders are wrong.... and the way you'll know is by attempting to use evidence and logic and a fresh reading of the Bible to PROVE ALL THINGS.

 

2. Assume that if God is real, he must WANT the world the way it is for now. The big mistake of mainstream Christianity is trying to redefine the world, rather than facing facts. My take on why things are the way they are is at www.whyjesusdied.com and www.happygod.blogspot.com

 

When your faith is big enough to face the cold brutal facts of reality and still believe in God, you'll also be able to sit down and have a beer with these thoughtful folks here in the Lion's den....

 

Hang in there, Bro., but remember... Jesus got along much better with "sinners" who could carry on a real conversation than with religious, pious types.

[diggin]

I'll tell you a story about hypocrisy.

 

First off, I can't discuss politics or religion at work, even with like-minded customers who bring it up with me first.  My boss openly scoffs at the possibility that I'm not making the first move and trying to brainwash people into being liberal athiests.  She is a WELS Lutheran, votes Republican, and is the brick wall to any and all arguments.

 

Two days ago, a customer came in who has known the bosses for several years, as his son went to school with theirs at a Lutheran elementary/middle school.  (Sidenote: the kid is a pothead, smoker, drinker, sexual deviant little ass who has crashed several cars and destroyed property.  Another victim of Christian Education.)  I hate this guy.  He has no reservations about being a letcher, even though his son is barely a few years my junior.  Usually, I just ignore him and try to get him out as soon as possible.

 

This time, my boss caught him, and they immediately began to launch into the most disgusting display of hatred I've heard yet.  Muslim problem?  Bomb them all, they're indecent human beings anyway who are the source of mankind's ills.  War protesters?  Fuck them, they're anti-American, and should leave the country.  The French?  They're socialists, they brought it upon themselves for being non-aggressive towards the Muslims for so long.  Cutting off heads is far worse than torture and less inhumane.    I had so many customers giving them askance looks of disgust, it was almost a Kodak moment.

 

It took all of my willpower not to stop what I was doing, look them both in the eye, and tell them, "So genocide makes you better than them in God's eyes?  Good job.  That's a good Christian method to solve all problems."  But since I need my job, I kept my mouth shut.

 

But, again: I, being an athiest, am going to hell for being godless, humane, and generally tolerant of everyone, whereas a close-minded pair of disgusting, hypocritical, bloodthirsty human beings genuinely believe they're guaranteed a place in their Heaven.    Gandhi would be past abhorred if he were still alive today.

104048[/snapback]

 

Great story, Sokudo-san.

 

It reminds me of something Jesus said. "The children of this age are, in relation to their contemporaries, wiser than the children of light."

 

Especially when the "children of light" are clueless.