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Goodbye Jesus

Sentient Being


PatrickG

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Both theism and atheism have some faith involved in them.

 

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Goodbye Jesus

You say that you don't sense god in you, but you do have an inner dialogue. For me this where God communicates. I have developed this faith for years.........as a Christain, and find it to be a beneficial part of my life. I do think that I could probably change my thinking to NOT see God in the inner dialogue.....but why? It works. It seems to come down to choice. I Choose to see God in my innner dialogue.

I don't see any reason to make up different words to say the same thing less straightforwardly. My inner dialog is my inner dialog. Call it God, or oogah, or koozbane, it matters not. A rose is a rose.

 

My inner dialog does not enlighten me or save me from my troubles in life, which makes me even less willing to label it god. It is mostly useless prattling. That's probably why eastern thought prefers to shut it up with meditation techniques. I have grown tired of talking to myself; it leads nowhere other than perhaps in circles. That's because I don't have enough verified data, enough perceptual equipment, and enough intellect to fully process the environment I find myself in the middle of. No one does. The universe is way too big, and we are way too small.

 

What I have learned to do is live within my limitations, and find a kind of freedom within those boundaries. When I try to operate outside the scope of my power to meaningfully and sustainably influence things, I become frustrated and unfulfilled. Christianity taught me that with god anything is possible. Unbelief has taught me that with Bob certain things are possible, others are not. It's a more sane way to live, in my view. Yeah, I miss the grandiose dreams and schemes of my Christian daze, but at least with this lower level of expectations I have the chance to be pleasantly surprised once in awhile.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Bob. I agree 100%. There's too much baggage in words like "God" and "spiritual". Let's say what we mean and mean what we say.

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Both theism and atheism have some faith involved in them.

 

Sigh. Wendywhatever.gif

 

If you are using Hebrews 11:1 as the definition of faith, then "No", an atheist does not have faith. The saying "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" would apply here.

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Both theism and atheism have some faith involved in them.

 

Sigh. Wendywhatever.gif

 

If you are using Hebrews 11:1 as the definition of faith, then "No", an atheist does not have faith. The saying "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" would apply here.

 

 

No. Not Bible theology.

 

Faith is a belief.

 

Faith changes as we get more information.

 

Theists choose to believe there is a power greater then themselves or something like that.

Atheists choose to believe that there is no god.

 

Neither position can be proven. Right?

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I think you've hit the nail on the head here Bob. I agree 100%. There's too much baggage in words like "God" and "spiritual". Let's say what we mean and mean what we say.

 

 

What would be a better word then "spiritual", when talking about spiritual stuff?

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Theists choose to believe there is a power greater then themselves or something like that.

Atheists choose to believe that there is no god.

 

The atheist has no choice but to believe there is no god. How much faith does it take to believe there are no fairies?

 

It's more like this:

 

Theist: You believe in god, right?

 

Atheist: Nope. There's insufficient reason to believe in god.

 

-- OR --

 

Theist: Look around you! there HAS to be a god! How else do you explain the beauty of creation?

 

Atheist: the world is beautiful, but I don't see that as enough reason to believe in god.

 

How is that "faith" on the atheist's part?

 

A belief system like secular humanism or naturalism might be described with the label "atheistic" because it does not refer to a god or gods for it's foundational tenets. But the atheist can adopt one of many worldviews. I would say a developed worldview requires something that resembles faith. But it requires nothing but the absence of belief in a deity to be an atheist.

 

To say not believing requires believing is incoherent at best.

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Atheists choose to believe that there is no god.

 

 

sigh

 

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I think you've hit the nail on the head here Bob. I agree 100%. There's too much baggage in words like "God" and "spiritual". Let's say what we mean and mean what we say.

 

What would be a better word then "spiritual", when talking about spiritual stuff?

 

There's a subtle instance of begging the question there. The question assumes there actually is a "spirit" in some sense other than metaphorical. the word "spirit" is an artifact from a more primitive time - a less knowledgeable point of view.

 

We know the sun doesn't actually float itself above the eastern horizon each morning, span the distance of the sky and then sink below the western horizon at night. Yet, we still use the terms "Sunrise" and "sunset." These words are relics left over from a less knowledgeable time.

 

Maybe Daniel Dennet's word "deepity" can become the new "spiritual." Because when people talk about "spiritual" it sounds like they are talking about something deep and profound, but usually it becomes apparent that they are talking about things they don't clearly define and/or whose meaning shifts, bobs and weaves so that it can't be pinned down so as to communicate clearly.

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Atheists choose to believe that there is no god.

 

 

sigh

 

Enjoyed that.

 

Is there the Essey form?

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What would be a better word then "spiritual", when talking about spiritual stuff?

AntlerMan and I have had this conversation before, as he also tends to use "god" and "spiritual" in contexts that have, for better or worse, come to be generally understood and defined rather differently than does he. I understand what you and he are doing, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with it, it's just not something I'm entirely comfortable with. It tends to set people to talking past each other, thinking they're talking about the same thing.

 

But at least AntlerMan is usually talking about overtly spiritual things, about meditation, peak experiences, and things that have to do with one's metaphysical viewpoints. I'm not as happy to be just relabeling my random inmost thoughts as god. I don't think it clarifies, but rather muddies the waters.

 

I had some limited exposure to soft core charismatic faith back in the day and I noticed a tendency to equate little flickers of emotion with the activity of the holy spirit, and then, building on that, to equate emotional states that one works oneself into (usually with the aid of group hysteria) with the holy spirit acting specifically on you. People were encouraged to deliberately speak a few nonsense syllables while in a heightened emotional state and then once you were in the flow of doing this it was supposedly language coming from heaven through you.

 

I don't see how this is any different -- you're taking something that's part of the trappings of ordinary existence and then calling it evidence of something you very much want or need for whatever reason to see -- evidence for god.

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There's a subtle instance of begging the question there. The question assumes there actually is a "spirit" in some sense other than metaphorical. the word "spirit" is an artifact from a more primitive time - a less knowledgeable point of view.

 

We know the sun doesn't actually float itself above the eastern horizon each morning, span the distance of the sky and then sink below the western horizon at night. Yet, we still use the terms "Sunrise" and "sunset." These words are relics left over from a less knowledgeable time.

 

Maybe Daniel Dennet's word "deepity" can become the new "spiritual." Because when people talk about "spiritual" it sounds like they are talking about something deep and profound, but usually it becomes apparent that they are talking about things they don't clearly define and/or whose meaning shifts, bobs and weaves so that it can't be pinned down so as to communicate clearly.

 

I guess I never really thought of the word "spirituality" as being archaic. Just recently I decided that much of Christian belief comes from archaic religion. A new Idea to me, that allowed me to change my beliefs.

 

Spiritual is a magic word.

 

Belief in magic is a choice that atheists decide to not hold.

 

Atheists do have beliefs right?

 

I'm just trying to get a grasp of what faith might be. Is faith different then belief?

 

I have always lumped the two together.

 

At the moment I would still prefer to believe in a power, a magic, a spirit, that is my friend in need. It seems to bring good results to do so, and that is my reason why.

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Belief in magic is a choice that atheists decide to not hold.

Is belief really a choice? That's been asked here many times on this board, and it's is and it is not.

 

Do you like chocolate ice cream? If so, did you ever in the past decide that you would like it? Is your liking of chocolate ice cream something you chose?

 

Atheists do have beliefs right?

Absolutely.

 

But unbelief is not the same as belief in un-.

 

An cherry box that is empty is not full of empty cherries.

 

I'm just trying to get a grasp of what faith might be. Is faith different then belief?

Yes.

 

Faith is trust in something. Faith is more choice than belief is. Belief is that you think something is probably true based on your experience, knowledge, thoughts, reasons, it's kind of a conclusion in something that is not fully supported by evidence.

 

You can have faith in a person. You believe he will come through for you.

 

I have always lumped the two together.

They're similar, but slightly different.

 

At the moment I would still prefer to believe in a power, a magic, a spirit, that is my friend in need. It seems to bring good results to do so, and that is my reason why.

 

"It seems to bring good results" Is that a claim that you decided by choice to believe in? What's your foundation for that choice?

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What you believe isn't a choice, you merely believe what makes sense to you.

 

However, you can control what makes sense to you to a point by getting (or not getting) new information and deliberating (or not deliberating) on it.

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"It seems to bring good results" Is that a claim that you decided by choice to believe in? What's your foundation for that choice?

 

To rationally choose to remain a theist may not be a choice, if belief is not a choice.............right?

 

I am just being honest with myself and trying to see what my beliefs are based on.

 

I have had religious experiences that I have attributed to "God" working in me.

 

I have developed a personal method of thought that I am comfortable with and enjoy.

 

Here is one.

 

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you".

 

I have been doing that for over 20 years.

 

I have convinced myself that there is a spiritual world, and I have learned how to be comfortable with it.

 

I'm not sure that I can be happy without it. I would have to force myself to undue what has been decades in the making.

I think I would be more willing to undue it, if I did not see value in it.

 

I am finding the talk of "spirit" words, being archaic, to be thought provoking, but it does not threaten the thing that is going on inside of me.

I guess I need reason to threaten my spirituality.

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I have convinced myself that there is a spiritual world, and I have learned how to be comfortable with it.

 

I'm not sure that I can be happy without it. I would have to force myself to undo what has been decades in the making.

 

I think I would be more willing to undue it, if I did not see value in it.

 

...I guess I need reason to threaten my spirituality.

I certainly understand the sunk cost of having a multi-decade investment in a particular belief system, and agree that you would have to see no value in it, or see harm in it, in order to let go of it. There is, after all, a cost to letting go -- a grieving process, an adjustment, and potentially, hurting or upsetting people around you that you care about, etc. You would have to come up with and take personal responsibility for a world view / belief system of your own.

 

For me, though, that is exactly what happened: the pain of changing became less than the pain of not changing. I would probably still be at least a nominal Christian to this day if my life had basically Just Worked. But it didn't. Spectacularly so. And it wasn't for lack of trying, or caring, or doing the right things. For me, what used to bring comfort simply caused psychological and emotional pain. For the sake of my mental health -- for my sanity, really -- I had to leave the faith. To remain in it would have made me an angry, bitter person without even the personal dignity of living my life according to my own lights. God wasn't worth paying that kind of price. I was his to lose. Although I say that in a purely figurative sense, as I no longer believe he's real, it's also true that any omnibenevolent being who makes the sorts of promises and representations that god allegedly does, would actually follow through on those things.

 

In other words I understand the willingness to suspend disbelief and just saying that you've found a shortcut that works for you, why question it. I was willing to do that for a long time. I just am not willing anymore.

 

If you are lucky you will not have to work very hard to reconcile actual outcomes with your beliefs. But god help you (ha) if you cannot.

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"It seems to bring good results" Is that a claim that you decided by choice to believe in? What's your foundation for that choice?

 

To rationally choose to remain a theist may not be a choice, if belief is not a choice.............right?

 

I am just being honest with myself and trying to see what my beliefs are based on.

 

I have had religious experiences that I have attributed to "God" working in me.

 

I have developed a personal method of thought that I am comfortable with and enjoy.

 

Here is one.

 

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you".

 

I have been doing that for over 20 years.

 

I have convinced myself that there is a spiritual world, and I have learned how to be comfortable with it.

So you made a decision to believe in something you didn't know if you believe in and then actively brainwashed yourself to believe it.

 

Could people do this mental gymnastics to make themselves believe in Santa Claus?

 

Which reminds me, I'd wanted to ask if it is a choice to believe that Santa Claus is just a made up character or if it is a reasonable and rational conclusion based on what we know?

 

I'm not sure that I can be happy without it. I would have to force myself to undue what has been decades in the making.

I think I would be more willing to undue it, if I did not see value in it.

Then it's more of a conclusion from what you feel. You don't feel that way because you decided you wanted to feel that way. Your belief is based on what you feel comfortable with, and not the reversed. You believe because you feel. You don't feel because you decided to feel so you could believe.

 

I am finding the talk of "spirit" words, being archaic, to be thought provoking, but it does not threaten the thing that is going on inside of me.

I guess I need reason to threaten my spirituality.

 

Sure. And for some people, they do get all the reasons (willingly or unwillingly) to make them realize that their previous spirituality is flawed. It doesn't mean their experience was chosen by them.

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Put it this way Patrick, I didn't put myself in the situations that eventually led me to question and lose my faith. And when I finally did lose it, it wasn't a decision I made but rather a realization based on what I've learned.

 

Let me put it this way. A decision is when you have two or more alternatives to pick from and you have fairly equal reasonable supports to choose either one. There's no choice or decision really involved when you have to choose between one option and no other option. If someone presents two dishes to you, one with a BBQ chicken on it, and the other plate empty, which dish will you choose when you're hungry? The empty one! Yay! Of course not. You're hungry. There's only one plate with food. The options are limited. And the choice, if you have to call it that, is only between the chicken or the chicken... i.e, you pick the chicken.

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If you are lucky you will not have to work very hard to reconcile actual outcomes with your beliefs. But god help you (ha) if you cannot.

 

Thanks Bob.

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So you made a decision to believe in something you didn't know if you believe in and then actively brainwashed yourself to believe it.

 

"Seek ye first the kindom of heaven and all these things will be added to you" is the starting point.

 

I now assume that there is a kindom of heaven. An unseen spiritual realm. Following my assumption, I find merit to the assumption by what I experience. I find no disproof to the assumption, that there is some sort of unseen spiritual realm. My faith in Christain dogma, I find plenty of disproof in, and let the doctrines go slowly...................I'm stuck on the one thing though. There seems to be merit to an unseen spiritual realm. Maybe some day I will find a disproof for this as well?

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So you made a decision to believe in something you didn't know if you believe in and then actively brainwashed yourself to believe it.

 

"Seek ye first the kindom of heaven and all these things will be added to you" is the starting point.

 

I now assume that there is a kindom of heaven. An unseen spiritual realm. Following my assumption, I find merit to the assumption by what I experience. I find no disproof to the assumption, that there is some sort of unseen spiritual realm. My faith in Christain dogma, I find plenty of disproof in, and let the doctrines go slowly...................I'm stuck on the one thing though. There seems to be merit to an unseen spiritual realm. Maybe some day I will find a disproof for this as well?

 

I think you're misunderstanding my intentions. :)

 

I'm not trying to dissuade you or make you drop your belief. I'm not even trying to make you prove or argue for your belief. Actually, I think it's your right to have it, and I can only assume that you have plenty of reasons for it.

 

My point didn't have anything with your belief, but with the claim that belief and unbelief is a simple decision. It's not. You have reasons to why you believe. Through your journey of life, you learned things and experienced things that led you to come to one conclusion, and you didn't have a choice but to follow that conclusion you had realized. It's a choice between no options. But the same thing happened to me, but it led to unbelief. I feel I have enough reasons to satisfy me and my curious mind to make the conclusion that I did. I didn't have any options but one.

 

So my point is really about your use of "choice" for unbelief, and I wanted to make sure you understood that you might have used it rather loosely.

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Consider this Patrick. I did seek God's kingdom for 30 years, and it eventually led me to unbelief. I gave my life, money, time, work, family... everything to God. And in the end, I'm not a believer anymore. My choice was to follow God, but one day I saw that there was no God in front of me. I had been following a dream, a fantasy, a delusion, not a real thing. When I realized that, the choice was only one. Without a God, and without a belief in God, I can't just "decide" myself to believe against my better knowledge.

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There seems to be merit to an unseen spiritual realm. Maybe some day I will find a disproof for this as well?

There may be some merit in a belief in an unseen spiritual realm. It's reality is not something you can disprove any more than you can disprove the existence of Bigfoot, but on the other hand, why believe something invisible, magical and undetectable if there is no evidence for it? Many people do exactly that, but it might be good to examine beliefs by first attempting to prove them so you will know if they are unfounded.

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Economically you should never let a past decision influence a currenr one. You are shorting yourself in the present due to a short in the past.

 

Not that i think that is what you are doing.

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Thanks for helping me sort some things out.

 

For some reason I wanted to scream that my faith is rational. It seems that athiests may never be able to swollow a rational spirituality pill. Maybe it is in the definition?

 

So as to not kick a dead horse.............I'm moving on to other spirituality topics.

 

I have enjoyed this thread and learned some things.

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For some reason I wanted to scream that my faith is rational. It seems that athiests may never be able to swollow a rational spirituality pill. Maybe it is in the definition?

If that was addressed to me, then you completely missed my point.

 

My point was that it's not completely accurate to call it a "decision".

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