When Children Abuse Their Parents

[Margee]

Teens all need to be on meds and should spend their summers at a mental health clinic instead of summer camps. I have an 18 year old prima donna that believes the world owes him everything for little or no work, including us. This has lead to lengthy discussions about work ethics and it's like having a discussion with a blue jay. No matter what you say to a blue jay, all they are thinking about is food. Teenagers are like that too. They are absorbed by themselves. Mine is bipolar and that makes dealing with him more challenging and our talks are generally loud and to the point. I don't know of an easy way to deal with teenagers, it's all on a personal level on how they choose to be treated. If they want respect, I want respect in return. There is a pecking order in the relationships between children and adults that the US, and perhaps the rest of the world too, no longer follows. And, that pecking order keeps children in their place. Children are not my equal, I don't care what kind of cell phone they have or if they maintain a Twitter account or not. When I say 'keeps children in their place,' I am not referring to an attitude of slavery. I am referring to how children talk to adults. I don't allow mine to talk disrespectful to other adults and I frown on children calling adults by their first names. Children no longer call adults Mr. or Mrs. so-and-so. I really think that is wrong because it gives children an idea they are entitled to behave and do as adults do and this leads to sexual advances by adults towards children or encourages children to pursue sexual activity with adults. It also leads to children behaving like complete asses towards their parents. That's why I say a child is not my equal. When they are older such as 17 and 18, I treat them as young adults and give them more privileges, but they are still on a leash I can reign in at any time they lose focus on their place in life. I give my 18 year old a lot of leash so he can learn how to be an adult but I do not take any crap from him at all and when he gets into trouble at school or downtown, I real in the leash, called 'being grounded until Hell freezes over', or he gets it into his head he is going to behave and at least act like he's growing up. I've got a thick hide and all the tears and boo-hooing just don't have an effect on me. Results do, which means 'do it my way cuz you're a kid and not responsible for yourself--yet.' In my state the age of majority is 19.

 

Children respond to divorce and separation of parents differently than adults. They often take out their hostilities on the parent that is given custody. I've seen this in action many times. Kids do not like having their world turned upside down and often, the only way they have to express themselves is by acting like a raving lunatic towards their parents. Sometimes they feel betrayed their mother or father has taken up with someone other than their biological parents whom they love. They feel threatened that when their own father or mother takes up with someone else, there is no more chance their parents will get back together and some kids just cannot handle the facts of life in adult terms. And, that's why I pointed out how I feel about a pecking order for children. They want to be adults but do not have skills required to behave as adults, which in return some of us adults have problems acting like adults in all situations. Swapping the 'terrible twos' for 'terrible tweens' doesn't mean conflict will be avoided, it just means you are dealing with an older child who wants to be an adult but refuses to leave their childish temper tantrums behind. When it is a step-child that has to be dealt with, it works better when the parent who 'owns' the child is on your side. A family is a family when everyone works to make a family work. A divided family is not a family but a half-way house of bitterness and disappointment. How to deal with teenagers has no solutions for a quick fix. They don't exist. Your girlfriend's daughter is just going to have to get her own head together and deal with the fact mommy is not going back to her daddy and for now, your girlfriend enjoys your company. Teenagers cannot cope with the idea their mother or father needs companionship that does not include the person they divorced. Teenagers want to have sex but the idea their parents also enjoy sex and want a relationship, is way over the top of most of their heads. If the girl is unreasonable towards you and your girlfriend, then it would be best if she does move out and start her own life.

 

Brilliant Heretic! Absolutely 5 star post! *****

[asanerman]

... It's just devastating that things have come to this crossroads.

 

In my Christian daze I would have prayed about it, "committed it to the lord" and perhaps consulted my pastor, and then would have told myself that Better Days Are Ahead. These days I'm taking the more rational tack of reaching out for the perspective and experience of others.

 

Considering your "crossroads" and what I've read so far in this tread, I would reconsider "tack."

 

There is a vast distinction between how members of a family or group relate and the "content" they encounter and "talk" about.

 

The danger in isolating a particular behavioral sequence from its context in the "family" is to ignore the process that maintains it.

 

Strategists have a dual focus---their goals are content-oriented, but their interventions are directed at process.

 

Enmeshment or disengagement is a function of reciprocal relationship with a third. The dyadic concepts; unconscious need complementary. expressive/instrumental, projective identification, symbiosis, intimacy. quid pro quo, double-bind,

symmetrical, complementary, pursuer/distancer, and behavioral contract can involve more than two people.

 

Murry Bowen understood that human behavior (at least in a family system) is always a function of triadic relationships, that is, the interactions among three people or objects;

Beloved daughter becomes abusive because her father covertly encourages her to undermine her mother's relationship with another man.

[SilentLoner]

Reminds me of a girl back in high school who would actually physically beat her mother up. A few of the girl's friends had to explain to teachers that they shouldn't call her mother to report her for problems in class because the girl would beat up her mother if confronted about anything.

 

Back to the OP - sounds to me she needs some serious pysch help. Or move out of the house for a period of time.

[Cracked]

I used to have a GF like this. Personally, I felt she needed treatment and meds. It turned out, she was on meth. She seemed to have some-kind of a multiple, personality disorder. I eventually had to have her evicted by the courts, due to the fact I could not just kick her out, and this took more than 60 days. I hired an old friend, who was homeless at the time, to be by my side, every time (day and night) I was at the house. I paid him like $45 a day. He was happy, and I had my witness, so she could not attempt to hurt herself and call the police, saying that I did it (she had done this in the past, so I took no chances.) She is the only person, I have never forgiven in my life.

 

I'm not sure what is wrong with the girl you are writing about. But hopefully, it's only a phase.

[DesertBob]

They don't exist. Your girlfriend's daughter is just going to have to get her own head together and deal with the fact mommy is not going back to her daddy and for now, your girlfriend enjoys your company. Teenagers cannot cope with the idea their mother or father needs companionship that does not include the person they divorced. Teenagers want to have sex but the idea their parents also enjoy sex and want a relationship, is way over the top of most of their heads. If the girl is unreasonable towards you and your girlfriend, then it would be best if she does move out and start her own life.

Actually I doubt this is about the divorce. The divorce happened nearly 15 years ago. She remarried, and her second husband died about 3 years ago. Now I'm in the picture. The divorce itself is old news.

 

The second husband had substance abuse issues which the kids were somewhat aware of, and it pulled their Mom down. She quit a rather high-paying, high-powered day job, gained weight, and explained away a couple of black eyes. Meanwhile biological Dad continues to pull six figures and drive luxury cars. I just think the daughter lacks compassion, and she's one of those people who sees weakness and despises it and takes advantage of it. My fiancee is not weak in the sense of being a pushover but there has been a dynamic of guilt, and overcompensation for her own crappy childhood, and I think her daughter has just learned to walk all over her.

 

Meanwhile, girls this age worship their father, and this particular girl has $$ signs in her eyes rather than stars, so her father's relative wealth puts him even more on a pedestal. She actually told her mother yesterday, in the midst of her diatribe, that if her mother isn't going to contribute to her college education, why should she bother to put up with her? Sheesh.

 

I did tell my fiancee that I have a right to exist in this house too, and I've made plenty of accommodations for her daughter. It was I who wrote that nice recommendation that helped get her into the foreign exchange program in Spain a couple of summers ago. It was me who kicked $500 into the kitty for that trip. It was almost entirely me who paid for a family vacation to southeast asia last summer -- a last chance for both kids and their Mom (and, yes, me, dammit) to be together before the son headed off to college -- a trip which the daughter largely ruined for everyone including her brother, with her shitty attitude. When she's home, it's true that her mother and I are often relaxing in the living room together, but she would be welcome to join us. She's not excluded. She excludes herself. She over commits to classes and extra curriculars and is a social butterfly. Those are her choices. If she's stressed and sleep-deprived, it's because she refuses to listen to either one of us about her priorities.

 

In some ways she's a chip off the old block. My fiancee is much more mellow and mature now but admits that at her daughter's age no one could tell her a damn thing either. It may well be that somewhere along the way her Dad placed the traditional curse on her: "May you one day have children like yourself". However that is still no excuse. My fiancee never gave her father any lip, never even conceived of doing it. And he actually had some coming.

[DesertBob]

Considering your "crossroads" and what I've read so far in this tread, I wou]ld reconsider "tack."

What is "tack"? Do you mean "tact" or "talk"?

There is a vast distinction between how members of a family or group relate and the "content" they encounter and "talk" about.

 

The danger in isolating a particular behavioral sequence from its context in the "family" is to ignore the process that maintains it.

 

Strategists have a dual focus---their goals are content-oriented, but their interventions are directed at process.

So far, so good.

Enmeshment or disengagement is a function of reciprocal relationship with a third. The dyadic concepts; unconscious need complementary. expressive/instrumental, projective identification, symbiosis, intimacy. quid pro quo, double-bind, symmetrical, complementary, pursuer/distancer, and behavioral contract can involve more than two people.

This is getting about as dense as a line from Lacan's Ecrits. But I guess what you mean is that this involves more than mother and daughter and I would agree. It makes no sense based on just the two of them.

Murry Bowen understood that human behavior (at least in a family system) is always a function of triadic relationships, that is, the interactions among there people or objects;

Beloved daughter becomes abusive because her father covertly encourages her to undermine her mother's relationship with another man.

Her ex is very competitive and finds me very threatening. I could care less about competing with him, but I can see his little banty rooster persona cranking up around me. Actually what precipitated all this was that I wrote him a nice email as a personal courtesy as I knew he was worried about his son, so I told him what had happened over the past 24 hours and all he could think about is that another man is with his son, filling the heroic role I suppose, and he probably wigged out. In retrospect I shouldn't have done him any favors. I just had a moment of unwise compassion on him, I made the mistake of doing what I would have appreciated him doing were our situations reversed. My mistake. It won't happen again.

 

The good news is that the way he handled it I can pretty much reconstruct that he (1) shared his son's private medical info with his wife, who is also the son's much-hated stepmother; (2) stepmother started bumping her gums to anyone who wanted to listen about all this juicy gossip; (3) stepmother shared all this with her stepdaughter, but carefully edited and embellished to make it seem like a bigger crisis than it actually was; (4) this and other misinformation led to stepdaughter working herself into a frenzy; (5) hence the shouting match with her mother. So now I know, rather than just suspect, that he's willing to manipulate his kids or even throw them under the bus in the service of his own ego. And my fiancee knows it too. Knowledge is power.

[Antlerman]

We've both tried to talk to her about this but she shuts down all conversation, either by putting on a little hyperventilation act, or just by doing her usual take-no-prisoners, scorched-earth technique of putting us down with lots of words like "always", "never" and "liar".

 

....

 

Her technique is basically to push buttons because she knows how to and because she can. Jab, jab, jab and then when she finally gets through your reserve and you raise your voice a bit or show any exasperation at all or even just maintain your cool and tell her to knock it off, you're persecuting her yet again.

 

...

 

If this weren't a split living situation, or she were younger, we'd probably institutionalize her in self defense. She's that over the top.

Oh boy. This sounds like my sister. Is she highly manipulative, if you say anything to challenge her she makes life a living hell that is relentlessly, going on and on and on and on obsessively, neurotically, and tortuously throughout the whole day or whole week following you daring to challenge her? Then she will be charming as all get out when talking to other people and make herself appear the victim by appearing perfectly normal to outsiders, whom she can persuade to think you are the one who is causing her to suffer?

 

If so... *deep, lifelong sigh*. BPD. Borderline Personality Disorder. The worst illness that most doctors hate trying to treat because of how difficult it is, how draining emotionally it is to them, etc. My sister flipped as soon as adolescence took place and had three children whom my parents raised for her, while she lived in the home making life a living hell for everyone. The children fled as soon as they could, but she is still there and my parent now in their 80's are prisoners in their own home to her triads with everyone in the world. Narcissistic doesn't begin to describe it. Demonic comes closer. Fractured world of splintered reality lived off of pushing others button to try to feel something - either happy or angry. Spends hours on the phone with her boyfriend telling him how terrible his mother is, saying repeatedly, "You and your mother, you and your mother, you and your mother," over and over and over in this snipping, quick little sharp, jabbing, irritating voice for a half an hour, at least! It sounds like "menma, menema, menema, menema, like a fucking jack hammer of bile from hell. I could go on at length.

 

If you are seeing anything remotely like this, as this pattern of hers has progressively worsened over the years, then I recommend you get this book now and see if anything fits. It teaches tool do deal with it, which sadly for my sister at her age its beyond dealing with anymore. You just try to tune it out best you can without loosing your shit on her. This book: http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901

 

I hope its not that for both your sake.

[DesertBob]

Oh boy. This sounds like my sister. Is she highly manipulative, if you say anything to challenge her she makes life a living hell that is relentlessly, going on and on and on and on obsessively, neurotically, and tortuously throughout the whole day or whole week following you daring to challenge her? Then she will be charming as all get out when talking to other people and make herself appear the victim by appearing perfectly normal to outsiders, whom she can persuade to think you are the one who is causing her to suffer?

Not far off, unfortunately, although she typically expends herself sooner than you describe. She can't seem to sustain her rage for more than a couple of hours. Her moods seem random to me. Sunny one minute, pissed and brooding the next. That last sentence, though, fits to a tee. Certainly, she has us walking on eggshells.

If so... *deep, lifelong sigh*. BPD. Borderline Personality Disorder. The worst illness that most doctors hate trying to treat because of how difficult it is, how draining emotionally it is to them, etc.

Actually this may explain my deeply visceral reaction to the girl. My first wife had BPD. I connect the two in my mind but haven't been willing to really look at it. Shit.

 

My first wife was also schizophrenic, a double whammy that makes the BPD both better and worse ... different than this. But I can see a lot of similarities too.

 

I have been trying to explain this as a phase, as raging hormones and immature, incomplete emotional wiring. But you could be right. I hope you're wrong, too.

 

Thanks for the book. Drat -- another one without an ebook edition. Maybe I'll do it the old fashioned way.

[Antlerman]

Oh boy. This sounds like my sister. Is she highly manipulative, if you say anything to challenge her she makes life a living hell that is relentlessly, going on and on and on and on obsessively, neurotically, and tortuously throughout the whole day or whole week following you daring to challenge her? Then she will be charming as all get out when talking to other people and make herself appear the victim by appearing perfectly normal to outsiders, whom she can persuade to think you are the one who is causing her to suffer?

Not far off, unfortunately, although she typically expends herself sooner than you describe. She can't seem to sustain her rage for more than a couple of hours. Her moods seem random to me. Sunny one minute, pissed and brooding the next. That last sentence, though, fits to a tee. Certainly, she has us walking on eggshells.

Yes my sister wears herself out and goes up to bed, or something. Then when she's recovered she starts in again, or waits to move on to the next drama. She is a drama queen to be sure. This is my number one difficulty in life right now is trying to deal with getting her out of my parents home before they go to the grave with her around their necks. They are getting to old to do anything anymore, not that that was effective in the first place. I often will find my dad hiding in the garage from her, sitting in the dark, or spend the day in his room. It breaks my heart, but she is 'weaponized' and has no sense of other in her broken reality of vile hell.

 

Shit, this got me started. I laugh sometimes since I am the complete opposite of this, I think of that Star Trek Next Generation episode called Skin of Evil. There was this vial, angry black tarry slick that manipulated and tortured people because it was his nature. He was created by a civilization that shed off their bad natures in a collective pool so they could live peaceably. She is my skin of evil, it seems.

 

If so... *deep, lifelong sigh*. BPD. Borderline Personality Disorder. The worst illness that most doctors hate trying to treat because of how difficult it is, how draining emotionally it is to them, etc.

Actually this may explain my deeply visceral reaction to the girl. My first wife had BPD. I connect the two in my mind but haven't been willing to really look at it. Shit.

As I said, oh boy. It's what leapt out at me hearing your brief description.

 

I have been trying to explain this as a phase, as raging hormones and immature, incomplete emotional wiring. But you could be right. I hope you're wrong, too.

I hope I'm wrong for your sake too! But knowledge is power at least if I'm right.

 

Thanks for the book. Drat -- another one without an ebook edition. Maybe I'll do it the old fashioned way.

I got a book for my parents, who shared it with her kids, who shared it with each other, all trying to understand what the fuck is wrong with her. It's amazing anyone has thrived in life in the face of such a skin of evil.

[DesertBob]

I hope I'm wrong for your sake too! But knowledge is power at least if I'm right.

From what I can crib out of the book preview these are the symptoms:

 

1) Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment: Not obviously so, but for instance this last blow up was triggered because she erroneously thought we had both gone to help her brother without telling her / taking her along which seems like a strange thing to be upset about unless you understand it as triggering some abandonment fear. I mean, she was at her Dad's this week, in school, and it wasn't her responsibility, even if both of us had gone. And it certainly wasn't a covert family vacation.

 

2) Pattern of intense personal relationships with alternating extremes of idealization and devaluation: Not really. Sounds like a bipolar component. I don't see that here.

 

3) Persistently unstable self-image or sense of self: Maybe. She's insecure as hell. But then, she's a 17 year old girl, too.

 

4) Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging: She can't stop herself from socializing even when it impacts her studies. She overbooks herself with classes and extra-curriculars, too. But then she is a 17 year old girl and she's an ambitious, driven, Type-A sort of person.

 

5) Recurrent suicidal or self-mutilating behaviors: No.

 

6) Marked reactivity of mood lasting a few hours or rarely a few days: Most definitely.

 

7) Chronic feelings of emptiness: I would be unsurprised to find this, but if she feels such things she covers it up well. I'm not seeing moroseness, depression. However in a rare moment of self-disclosure to me, she admitted there are "things she doesn't talk to anyone about".

 

8) Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger: YES.

 

9) Transient, stress-related paranoia or disassociative symptoms: Not obvious "people are talking about me behind my back" sorts of paranoia but definitely lives in an alternate reality and believes things that are patently not true -- either that or is a deliberate liar / slanderer.

 

I suppose there is enough there to cause concern. I don't know if Mom is ready to consider this possibility just yet. Her son already had crippling OCD / GAD and she has enough to worry about. But I will definitely consider this in the mix.

[DesertBob]

You know, AM, there is one other thing that is interesting here. She has a step-grandmother who her mother and I have no doubt has classic BPD. And she is the one person in the family with quite an affinity for that witch -- er, woman. Completely reinterprets the grandmother's pitched fits as heroic battles against injustice. That sort of thing. Hm. Maybe it takes one to know one.

[Antlerman]

I wouldn't take those as those only descriptions or symptoms of it too. I could add a few from personal experience, plus I think in the book itself it lays out scenarios that look a lot more like what the reality of it is like. Again, my sister was 'good' compared to now, and even that 'good' was awful. It might be worth getting the book, or seeing if it's available at the library.

 

Plus what it does is teaches effective ways to set boundaries and expectations that actually help the afflicted person, and yourselves.

[Vigile]

She's a despicable excuse for a human being,

 

Bob, please take your offense at my comments with a grain of salt here. I think you are a brilliant person with a big heart, but you also have one of the sourest outlooks on life of anyone I've ever encountered. I like you and don't want to insult you, so this is, hopefully, constructive feedback.

 

She's just a child. I've seen you also talk about life in extreme terms so hopefully this puts into perspective your comments on a child under your care. Perhaps she is satan's spon, but perhaps she's also just a relatively normal kid going through teen angst. While I'm sure it's not easy on you and your fiance to deal with right now, this girl is a human being and how you guys deal with it now will affect her for the rest of her life; either giving her a very negative outlook like your own or a healthier perspective on life. That she sees you and that you admit you are a coiled spring and that she's still working on a developing brain and being slammed with growing up all at once is not a healthy combo I think.

 

I'm basing this just one what I read here and what I've read from your posts in the past. Surely my perspective is quite skewed, so again, take this with a grain of salt.

 

that she turns into an abuser.

 

IMO, she needs to be disciplined when she does these things. Let her know the discipline comes from a position of love and care for her own well being, but let it be an escalating scale, taking away privileges until she earns them back with good behavior and building trust. Just refusing to communicate with her means you guys are treating her like a person you do not like and do not know a better way to deal with. You need to take control, be the adults, and be loving about it.

 

For the record, I'm not expert when it comes to raising kids as I've never done it, but my own parents were quite expert and I ALWAYS knew and felt they loved me, even when they disciplined me and I always knew they did so not out of anger, but out of an intention to help me in life. My father, for example, refused to discipline me when he was angry with me. If he had to, he would go and cool off and then come back and deal with me when he had calmed down. Again, I always knew it was out of love. What I see in your posts, I'm sure your step daughter also sees. A whole lot of anger and not much love shining through.

 

You can hate me for being frank here. I hope not. But I'm doing so because there is another human's future outlook on the line and hopefully this will help in some way.

 

All the best to you and your family my friend.

[DesertBob]

Bob, please take your offense at my comments with a grain of salt here. I think you are a brilliant person, but you also have one of the sourest outlooks on life of anyone I've ever encountered. I like you and don't want to insult you, so this is, hopefully, constructive feedback.

Entirely well-intentioned, and no offense taken.

 

I have not had any anger issues with her until the past 2 or 3 weeks. I recognize that it comes from my own issues and my venting here is part of my effort to not take it out on her.

 

One of the things I had no clue about until I got into this particular relationship, was the baroque complexity of child rearing and discipline in a blended family. It's true that my kids came from my first marriage, which ended in divorce, but the mother was not competent to have custody and was not interested in having it. So I did not have to share the kids with her and I did not have to include her in my personal decisions.

 

This is a more typical scenario, where the daughter spends alternate weeks with us, and where the ex and stepmother love to manipulate the situation. It is not easy to make harsh disciplinary decisions because she can always escape the consequences in the other household. In most instances there is no cooperation from that quarter, and she knows how to play her father like a harp, as well as how to play the parents off against each other and push various buttons. To the extent they experience her acting out (and they do) they both try to conceal it from us and blame us for causing it. So this becomes a sick dynamic all the way around. It is disheartening to expend the emotional energy to deal with something when you know it will be undone in part or in whole by others. It renders us somewhat impotent and she knows it. The only real leverage we have with her is that she will have to live full time with her father, and increasingly, it seems she doesn't find that a bad idea. I think, though, that she senses at some level that she will loose a lot of the "wiggle room" she has with this back and forth situation, and so she isn't quite prepared to go there. So our approach right now is to show her the door, or in the alternative, lay down rules about how she will behave and obtaining her agreement.

 

As for her being "only a child" I would remind you that in about 6 months she will be legally an adult and 4 months after that will be off to college, and by this time, she should be transitioning to adult behaviors and responsibilities and habits. Much more is required of her than a 10 or 12 year old. I am not going to excuse her behavior just because she's 17 or my fiancee's daughter. If anything I should expect more of her. The way she is treating her mother is threatening her mother's progress in her own personal development, there are several touchy situations going on at once here, lots of moving parts. I am not going to allow anyone -- not even the kids -- to abuse her mother, because she is very raw and vulnerable just now. She's making some real progress in working on herself and I want to protect that.

[Noggy]

Bitches ain't shit.

[Vigile]

This is a more typical scenario, where the daughter spends alternate weeks with us, and where the ex and stepmother love to manipulate the situation. It is not easy to make harsh disciplinary decisions because she can always escape the consequences in the other household

 

I can see how that puts you in a tough spot. One of my best friends in the US has this same issue. She has two boys from her first marriage and while she wants the best for them, her ex spoils the shit out of them, so when she tries to mold them into good human beings when they are with her, her ex goes into extra spoil mode undermining any effort on her part. It totally screws the kids in the end. At the end of the day, all she can do is try and be a pillar for them, but the kids are probably facing a bleak existence due to the fact both parents are not on the same page.

 

I guess my only advice here would be to have you and your fiance get on the same page first, then pull the girl aside and have a frank discussion with her in a calm, warm, loving setting. Perhaps taking her to a restaurant of her choice or something similar. Let her know your concerns for her well-being. Don't try to change her behavior during this discussion. Just let her see your side of things. Let her see your vulnerability.

 

E.g., we want the best for you, the world is a difficult place and life is hard and we want you to have the best life you can possibly live. We don't know all the right answers here but we want you to know we love you and our efforts, while weak and ad hoc, are our genuine attempts to help you, not make you miserable. We are sorry for our mistakes but we will continue to try and do what we feel is best for you in our capacity. But at the end of the day, know that we love you unconditionally. It is vitally important for a human being to know that at least some people in their lives have unconditional love. Without it, we cannot survive inside our own heads.

 

From there, don't walk on egg shells around her and certainly, don't make her walk on egg shells around you. If she thinks you are a volcano that can erupt, she will feel as if she is walking on egg shells even if you never erupt. If your fiance ignores her due to her bad behavior, the girl is walking on egg shells there too. Be strict, yet rewarding the good too and always, let it be from a place of love. It may not pay off right away, but I think the girl will recognize your genuine intentions for her own welfare and will reflect on this, perhaps years later in life when she really needs it, and you all will be better off and closer for the effort here.

 

Again, I'm basing this on my parent's model for raising me, not on my own experience, so it's bound to be somewhat distorted.

[DesertBob]

It may not pay off right away, but I think the girl will recognize your genuine intentions for her own welfare and will reflect on this, perhaps years later in life when she really needs it, and you all will be better off and closer for the effort here.

I think a lot of what you do for a teen applies down the road in retrospect and you can't expect much in the short term. Although I was a compliant, pleaser type of child, I did not take the adults in my life seriously either. I don't think at that age you're really capable of it. It's one of the reasons I got involved with my first wife -- I had plenty of warning from her therapist, from clergy, from her own father. It didn't matter; I knew better.

 

I just took a call from her mother and I guess they already had a convo today and it went half-assed okay. It's still upsetting because the daughter is thinking of moving out, but I think whatever happens will somehow be for the best. I've probably spent too much energy on it today. It will be what it will be.

[asanerman]

... It's just devastating that things have come to this crossroads.

 

In my Christian daze I would have prayed about it, "committed it to the lord" and perhaps consulted my pastor, and then would have told myself that Better Days Are Ahead. These days I'm taking the more rational tack of reaching out for the perspective and experience of others.

 

 

Considering your "crossroads" and what I've read so far in this tread, I would reconsider "tack."

What is "tack"? Do you mean "tact" or "talk"?

 

Tack : to change direction.

 

Based on experience do you really think anecdotal information will grant you any more relief or substance than what your previous religious encounter provide you? A trained professional might be justified.

 

Enmeshment or disengagement is a function of reciprocal relationship with a third. The dyadic concepts; unconscious need complementary. expressive/instrumental, projective identification, symbiosis, intimacy. quid pro quo, double-bind, symmetrical, complementary, pursuer/distancer, and behavioral contract can involve more than two people.

This is getting about as dense as a line from Lacan's Ecrits. But I guess what you mean is that this involves more than mother and daughter and I would agree. It makes no sense based on just the two of them.

 

Several times you've mentioned the old nature-nurture debate; mentioned within this "dense line" (if by dense you mean demanding concentration to follow or comprehend) are some of the concepts that have gotten most of science beyond that basic debate, ie.nature nurture become one. Growth and organization of the brain reflects a complex yet subtle blending of genetic and environmental influences. What most of us consider as nurture is distorted adaptations necessary for our own survival. People, children, adolescent and adults can develop mental disorders when a genetic weakness is sufficiently stressed by an event in the environment.

[Blue elephant]

DesertBob

 

Moving over to dad's for a while is probably the best thing just at the moment, even if you don't like her dad's style.

 

He will be thinking that things will be better over at dad's - and they will for a while. But then she will start the tantrums on him and he will probably want her to move out.

 

At this age, they don't listen to anything that their parents tell them. They need to get some feedback from other situations to know that this is unacceptable. eg this type of teenager will often give cheek to their employer at their part time job and then get fired.

 

The style of reacting in a matter of inbuilt temperament. I think you said that she came out fo the womb as a little spitfire. My daughters are like this as well. There are a lot of parents out there who have obedient children and these parents like to credit themselves with good parenting skilss. But it just aint true!

 

Sounds to me like you are doing fine, just standing back a little and protecting both of yourselves. Let Dad get in the firing line for a while.

 

I have recently seen one of my friends dealing with a spitfire step daughter who has flipped between mum and dad several times because neither can tolerate her behaviour and the attitude and the lippy responses. Child gets in to a difficult situation, makes promises that she doesn't fulfill.

 

You know what has now happened with this situation? Mum and Dad are finally putting on a united front and the spitfire daughter will probably get dumped at the homeless refuge before the end of the year (she is 19, so old enough for a refuge).

 

Continue on. Don't either of you bite when all the provocation comes and just protect yourself emotionally from all the abuse.

[DesertBob]

There are a lot of parents out there who have obedient children and these parents like to credit themselves with good parenting skills. But it just ain't true!

You got that right!

 

I was one of those obedient children and I can tell you that it was no effort for me at all, so I know it wasn't because I was particularly good or because my parents were particularly skilled, because like all kids, I followed the path of least resistance. For me it was operating under the illusion that nice guys finish first. For her it's the illusion that hardcase bad-asses finish first. To each their own. In some quarters, she's even right. She's not sophisticated enough yet though to know there's a difference between being right and being happy.

 

Mom does not want her to move out. She has her reasons. I think she will do most anything to keep her daughter in place. I am not going to insert myself in their whole estrogen-soaked, complicated dynamic anymore. It will be what it will be. She's thinking of moving out but I don't think she will. She'll just keep holding that threat over her mother's head, so long as it gives her power.

 

At any rate we have less than a year of this to bear with and she will be off to college with nary a backward glance. If she is a borderline personality, as AM suggests, or if she's even halfway there (it's not a binary condition, after all, and I'm willing to say she's at least leaning that way) the prognosis blows and sucks anyway. She is very, very far from seeing she has a problem or being willing to deal with it. She will never let herself be seen as weak. Also her brother's mental health situation terrifies her, in part no doubt because she senses at some level she DOES have a problem of her own. So she's just not going down that road.

 

What needs to happen, is she needs to go out into the world and run into various brick walls for awhile and get to her personal bottom and then we will be there to pick up the pieces if she will allow it. Or, given that she's interested in the cut-throat world of international business, maybe she'll fit right in. I pity the fool who works for her though.

 

I've got to wonder how I managed to end up in the middle of another nest of people with interlocking personal problems. I probably need to take a long walk and think about that. I can see that these kids are not going to be gone even when they are gone, they are going to have problems up the wazoo for years. I have to assume in self defense we won't get lucky and they will just snap out of it, though that's possible. Gawd, the drama!

[DesertBob]

Based on experience do you really think anecdotal information will grant you any more relief or substance than what your previous religious encounter provide you? A trained professional might be justified.

Of course it's justified but I would need the horse to let me lead it to water, much less drink. I also know courtesy of our experiences with her son that the quality of mental health care around where we live is awful. They just wanted to dope him up and manage him with drugs. They don't seem to know anything else. He's getting much better care in the university system and even that is not exactly setting the world on fire. An anxiety clinic that is backed up for eight to ten weeks is material for a comedy routine, not something that inspires confidence. It's an ANXIETY clinic for God's sake.

 

There is also the not incidental matter of cost. Biological Dad holds the purse strings and the insurance cards. He's barely able to get his pea brain around the concept that his son's got a real illness. He thinks it's all a bunch of hooey. He only allowed it because we had to scrape his son off the floor and he wasn't going to school anymore. His daughter, I'm sure, looks perfectly fine to him.

... Nature and nurture become one. Growth and organization of the brain reflects a complex yet subtle blending of genetic and environmental influences. What most of us consider as nurture is distorted adaptations necessary for our own survival. People ... can develop mental disorders when a genetic weakness is sufficiently stressed by an event in the environment.

If you ask me a lot of it is determined in the womb. At the time these kids were gestating, Mom was suffering from chronic anxiety. It probably didn't help. This sort of thing is one of the reasons I've become anti-natalist. Bringing beings into existence without their consent into some random stew of your own personal problems is just not right. I'll stop short of saying it's unethical because people mean well, but technically it's that, too.

[Vigile]

In defense of your step daughter Bob, I was pretty much like you described her when I was her age. As I said, my dad didn't take my shit, but I knew he loved me and how he responded was for my own good. I grew out of it pretty quickly after moving out. In my case, I was like I was at that age because I was struggling to find my own way, understand the world, facing new pressures and dealing with a teen brain that was still under development. Just don't judge her and define her life's personality in your mind based on how she's behaving now because parents really do influence how their kids grow up and who they become to a very large degree.

 

Knowing my wife like I do, I know she would have been worse at that age but for the fact that both her parents were very stern and didn't take any shit at all. She resents her mother to this day as she wasn't allowed to even have friends after school or do anything but homework and chores. I'd say discipline and structure can make your life easier and mold her, but I wouldn't suggest the extreme of my wife's family and would rather suggest a more nurturing structure like my parents; but the key here is structure and limits to what you will and will not accept. Anything outside should be met with penalties, which do not get easily bent.

[DesertBob]

Just don't judge her and define her life's personality in your mind based on how she's behaving now because parents really do influence how their kids grow up and who they become to a very large degree.

I think this situation is a prime example of how little influence parents have over their kids, but whatever.

 

It is possible she will turn out much better than this, I get that. She is not being her best self right now, and that is what we are obliged to deal with in the meantime.

[Vigile]

I guess I didn't do a great job at describing how my parent's values impacted me then. My point was that while teens go through years of angst, how they are raised ultimately defines who they turn out to be as human beings later on in their lives. Certainly we all have our unique quirks; studies of twins have shown this. But we are also vastly products of our environments.

 

If this were not true, we would all still be savages and there would be no differences between various cultures.

[DesertBob]

I guess I didn't do a great job at describing how my parent's values impacted me then. My point was that while teens go through years of angst, how they are raised ultimately defines who they turn out to be as human beings later on in their lives. Certainly we all have our unique quirks; studies of twins have shown this. But we are also vastly products of our environments.

 

If this were not true, we would all still be savages and there would be no differences between various cultures.

I see what you're saying. Kind of like how my daughter was a total pig when she lived under my roof and now keeps a very tidy home. I always attributed that to her self-interest, the fact that it's HER house and it reflects on HER. But maybe you're right; maybe I managed to instill hygiene and pride of ownership in her. Wouldn't it be nice to think that.

 

One thing people tend to forget is that kids spend way more time with their peers than with their parents. That's why, by the time they are teens, they care way more about what their peers think and value than what their parents think and value. That's one of the arguments in favor of home schooling, you cut way down on that. Although as a former home schooler, I can tell you it's a fool's errand.

 

Since my kids left the nest maybe 10 years ago I was a little bit out of touch with what currently passes for youth culture and was taken aback by the stark rudeness of these kids until I realized that when they tell you to "shut UUUUP!!" it's just the way they talk to each other, sort of like the 21st century version of "don't be silly". Yet it's hard for us to adjust to. If I weren't such a latecomer to the party I would assert myself and not allow that, no matter what has become of Standard English amongst the young. I think it has an impact on attitudes. A lot of things would be different. But I am just an interloper in an existing dynamic, and all I can do by getting that involved is make it more complicated than it already is.

 

Of course I'm not arguing that parents have zero impact. You can have a huge impact for ill by doing harm. You can set the stage, as you point out, for cultural values. But I think our rise from savagery is a much more gradual process that spans millennia, not something that you can sit back and see the contribution you made in just your own kids.

 

No matter ... my kids and her kids are what they are, however they got to be that way, and all I'm saying is I'm not taking the fall for their peccadilloes any more than I expect my parents to take the fall for mine.