Lil' Baby Souls

[Guest JPD]

I'm curious as to what the christians around here think happens to the "soul" of an aborted child. The only way their staunch disapproval of abortion makes sense is if they believe that God sends the child's soul to hell. If they believe they are trying to save those little souls from an instant undeserved condemnation, then at least their motivation makes sense. But what would that say about God if that were true?

 

Well, if you don't believe that they instantly go to hell, then there are a few other options. But in each of these other options abortion is actually preferable to the alternative, and is even the more moral option.

 

1. The child's soul goes to heaven. We might assume this because christians believe that you will go to heaven or hell when you die, and since the child has died and we've ruled out hell for the purposes of argument, this is a reasonable assumption. So, if an unborn baby's soul goes to heaven, which according to christians is the ultimate goal of existence, without ever even being exposed to the horrific danger of the possibility of going to hell, then why is it wrong to abort babies. If we believed that the souls of unborn babies were instantly "saved" then we would have a moral obligation to abort every child from now on until the death of the human race, so that no one would ever go to hell again, and to "save" all the babies who would be born in a final act of mercy. Any child who makes it into the world has a very large chance of going to hell.

 

Matt 7:13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

As a christian parent, isn't your ultimate hope and goal to get your child into heaven? If there was something that you could do that would remove even the chance that your child would ever suffer an eternity in hell, wouldn't you be compelled to do it?

 

2. The child's soul is destroyed without it ever having an identity, a memory, a feeling, a thought, a desire. Is this so awful? If the alternative is a very good chance that you are going to suffer in a lake of fire forever, wouldn't this be preferable to betting on that longshot? So many things can happen during the course of a life. Many people have very strong faith for a time, just like the christian posters, but their doubts grow as time goes by and they learn more about the world and their religion. So many twists and turns and temptations, and so few stay faithful to the end. What is there for those who don't make it? A worm that does not die. Sulfur. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. I would take never having existed over always existing in pain, anyday. Do you not think that the billions of souls in hell would have preferred to have been aborted into oblivion?

 

3.The child's soul is kept in storage until another zygote needs a soul, and if these parents want their child and so do not abort it, hell, they might even be christians. In any case they will be people who WANT kids, which automatically makes them better parents than those who don't. How is this scenario not preferable to making someone have a child they don't want to have?

 

Perhaps you can think of some more options, like the baby's souls get put into maggots or slime eels or midgets . But, the way I see it, if you believe that unborn children have souls, there are really only two options.

 

-Hell. Which means God is a monster.

 

-Anything else. Every other option has abortion being the preferable alternative to allowing an unwanted child to be born.

 

So, which is it? Is God a horrible tyrannical monster, or is the right to life movement a huge misguided waste of otherwise useless piety?

[Guest JPD]

No takers? Nothing? Nobody wants to talk to the new guy?

[Ouroboros]

I think the Christians skipped this one...

 

We just have to keep on *bumping* it up in the list now and then.

 

And I almost forgot:

 

WELCOME JPD! I hope you'll have a great time here!

[Mythra]

JPD: that's a great post. I can't wait to see the creative squirming (and don't worry - this won't go unanswered by a few rabid fundies)

 

Welcome to the club, man.

[Antlerman]

It does have certain logic to it. One of the many conundrums they can find themselves in when they use God as a logic device.

 

Personally, I feel their motives for opposing abortion are two fold:

 

1. They want future recruits to replenish the ranks and subsequently their coffers.

 

2. All children are atheists when they are born, and it's a boost to them when they can convert an atheist. Since they generally have a snowball's chance in hell of converting an adult atheist, they prey upon children. "Don't abort them; we need to preach to them first!"

 

Just a thought.

[Ouroboros]

2.  All children are atheists when they are born, and it's a boost to them when they can convert an atheist.  Since they generally have a snowball's chance in hell of converting an adult atheist, they prey upon children.  "Don't abort them; we need to preach to them first!"

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[Guest JPD]

It does have certain logic to it.  One of the many conundrums they can find themselves in when they use God as a logic device.

 

Personally, I feel their motives for opposing abortion are two fold:

 

1.  They want future recruits to replenish the ranks and subsequently their coffers.

 

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But future recruits to what? Heaven or The Church. If all they care about is bulking up the membership then this might make sense. Christianity has always has the most success among the downtrodden and uneducated. But, If they are truly concerned for the child, then the question of what happens to the soul becomes the most important question in the debate.

 

It's clear from the bible that the murder of children isn't a particularly heinous sin in the eyes of God. He has done it, Himself, and has ordered it done or facilitated it being done over and over in scripture. The truth is that it is far easier for the christian mind to care about imaginary entities than real people (i.e. God is more important than your family, an unborn child is more important than an unwed mother etc).

 

2. All children are atheists when they are born, and it's a boost to them when they can convert an atheist. Since they generally have a snowball's chance in hell of converting an adult atheist, they prey upon children. "Don't abort them; we need to preach to them first!

 

But preaching isn't 100% effective in the salvation game. Abortion might be. It all depends on what you think happens to the soul of an unborn child.

[Mythra]

If the bible is true, I'd have much preferred to be aborted myself.

 

Cause there's no way in Holy Hell that I'm gonna die a christian.

[Ouroboros]

It's also important to know that a embryo does not have a "soul" the first 3 weeks, according to the Bible and Biology.

 

Bible: Lev 17:11 - The soul is in the blood

Lev 17:11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

 

And the blood is not developing until the 3:d week, the blastocyst embryo. So before that, there's no blood, and hence no "soul". This should at least give a big punch in the face of the objectors to the morning-after pill.

[Guest JPD]

Frankly, I have an aching feeling that this will be turned into an abortion debate instead of the good question you have proposed.  

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I'll try to keep it on track. I'm sincerely interested in what christians think about this. My stepmother, a charismatic, was appalled to learn that she had been espousing the use of birth control pills because she didn't know that they killed a zygote after conception. She had never even though about it. I'll wager most pro-lifers haven't given much serious thought to what might happen to the little souls they think they are trying to protect.

 

Despite the fact that abortion is not near as bad as say; drowning to death thousand of children, glorifying infants being dashed to pieces on the rocks, children being eaten alive by bears for calling a man "bald head", etc. that comes to us from the good ole' book known as the bible. Abortion is done by evil people they will say, and casually look over the atrocities done to children per the bible authors, in the name of god.

 

Agreed. Hypocrisy is built in to christianity. The saving grace, apparently, is that the Holy Haint administers ethereal morphine directly into the brains of the reborn. Who cares is God killed Egyptian babies way back in some sandy neverland? Who cares if often the only people left alive in a land conquered by the Hebrews were little virgin girls? Who cares that God shared some quality bonding time with Abraham by commanding him to KILL HIS OWN SON?

[Cerise]

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps Christians who protest abortion are not protesting for the benefit of the unborn, but for the benefit of the mother. That would make the act of abortion sinful, but the result of the abortion would be moral. Sort of a "save the child's soul but kill your own" type deal.

 

Which, you would think, is the kind fo self-sacrificing matyrdom that christians would espouse, but...

 

That's all I can think of: Christians who are against abortion don't give two figs about the unborn, they want to save the mother's soul.

[Antlerman]

The truth is that it is far easier for the christian mind to care about imaginary entities than real people (i.e. God is more important than your family, an unborn child is more important than an unwed mother etc).

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Seriously, you have just hit the nail square on the head here. It is a way for them to feel righteous without needing to do any of the hard work. How many of them from the comfort of their suburban homes will help the poverty-stricken children once they've saved them from abortion? Some might, but I would bet heavily that the percent of them who got so angry about it initially who do anything is well under the 2% number. It's a way for them to say, "I stand for what is good", without doing anything really meaningful to someone.

 

Why look for logic in their reasoning? It's never stopped the nonsense before.

[Guest JPD]

That's all I can think of: Christians who are against abortion don't give two figs about the unborn, they want to save the mother's soul.

 

I'm not so sure that they really care about saving anyone, except that winning a convert would just make them feel more secure in their own salvation. My own father, when I asked him how he would feel while in heaven knowing that his children were in hell, replied that he honestly thinks that heaven will be so great that he won't care. I love my Dad.

 

Christians rarely believe anything enough to do anything constructive about. If they did, bombing abortion clinics would be the natural response to a fundy reading of the entire Bible. A belief so weak it doesn't compel one to action is still strong enough, apparently, to compel one to judgment.

 

A perfect example of the weakness of christian beliefs is my stepmother. She is constantly sending me religious emails. Last Halloween I got a forward on the evils of that pagan holiday. I responded by arguing that her favorite holidays were just as pagan. She sells christmas merchandise for a living, damnit! After some back and forth she said something like...

 

 

"Well, Jeremy. Satan and satanism is real and here's why..."

 

She goes on to tell me that she has been doing some "christian counseling" at her church. Let me just say that this woman is about as qualified to counsel another human as perhaps Eileen Wournos. Even so, She had been helping this woman cope with her experience in a murderous satanic cult that systematicall raped and killed babies, and did all manner of unspeakable atrocities. My response to her was...

 

"Lynn, If you believe that this cult is somewhere murdering babies, why are you not at the police station right now with your friend telling them what you know. There are REAL BABIES FOR YOU TO SAVE!"

 

 

It hadn't even occured to her. She said she would ask the woman about it. The woman said she wasn't ready to deal with it, it was still too scary for her. The whole time, these two women believe that real children are being tortured, raped and killed, they do nothing. It's enough for them to just sit around and talk about it, and hate people with pagan beliefs.

[Guest JPD]

In case it was unclear, I do not believe that there was any such "satanic cult" in reality.

[Cerise]

I think I've been misunderstood. I wasn't disputing that some (one might even say the majority) of Christians don't really care about the unborn child or the mother when they protest abortion. What I was saying is that the only way I can see for Christians to justify their anti-abortion position is to claim that they are doing it for the sake of the mother, not the child. Afterall, the child, if we believe God is not a sadist, goes directly to heaven upon being aborted, so being anti-abortionist for the child's sake does not really make sense if you consider going to heaven the most important thing. Therefore, an anti-abortion (or "pro-life" as they say) Christian would have to believe that they are saving the mother, not the child.

 

I've often thought that it makes more sense for atheists and those who believe in no afterlife to be against abortion than it does for Christians.

[Guest JPD]

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps Christians who protest abortion are not protesting for the benefit of the unborn, but for the benefit of the mother. That would make the act of abortion sinful, but the result of the abortion would be moral. Sort of a "save the child's soul but kill your own" type deal.

 

If this were the case, then one should encourage the mother to abort the child to save it's soul, THEN convert to christianity, and subsequently be forgiven of the abortion. Everyone wins!

[All Gods Fail]

The whole time, these two women believe that real children are being tortured, raped and killed, they do nothing. It's enough for them to just sit around and talk about it, and hate people with pagan beliefs.

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Deep down they know it's bullshit, which is why they don't act. If they did march down to the police and file a report, suddenly they've put their belief system on the line. If the cops find no evidence of their fantastic claims they end up looking foolish. The risk is not worth the reward.

 

By going through this 'counseling' game, they can keep their cherished beliefs untouched by harsh reality.

[Guest JPD]

It's also important to know that a embryo does not have a "soul" the first 3 weeks, according to the Bible and Biology.

 

Bible: Lev 17:11 - The soul is in the blood

Lev 17:11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

 

And the blood is not developing until the 3:d week, the blastocyst embryo. So before that, there's no blood, and hence no "soul". This should at least give a big punch in the face of the objectors to the morning-after pill.

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*in my best imitation of Dana Carvey doing Johnny Carson*

 

I did not know that. Wierd, wild stuff.

[Guest JPD]

The whole time, these two women believe that real children are being tortured, raped and killed, they do nothing. It's enough for them to just sit around and talk about it, and hate people with pagan beliefs.

103070[/snapback]

 

Deep down they know it's bullshit, which is why they don't act. If they did march down to the police and file a report, suddenly they've put their belief system on the line. If the cops find no evidence of their fantastic claims they end up looking foolish. The risk is not worth the reward.

 

By going through this 'counseling' game, they can keep their cherished beliefs untouched by harsh reality.

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Yeah, I know this. It doesn't make it any less astounding or befuddling. It makes making small talk with her very uncomfortable.

 

I'm going to have to post my testimony soon. It's a fucking doozy.

 

Thanks for the welcome, everyone. I've been looking for a place like this for awhile.

[Amethyst]

The silence from the Christians on this site is rather deafening, isn't it?

[Antlerman]

She goes on to tell me that she has been doing some "christian counseling" at her church. Let me just say that this woman is about as qualified to counsel another human as perhaps Eileen Wournos. Even so, She had been helping this woman cope with her experience in a murderous satanic cult that systematicall raped and killed babies, and did all manner of unspeakable atrocities. My response to her was...

 

"Lynn, If you believe that this cult is somewhere murdering babies, why are you not at the police station right now with your friend telling them what you know. There are REAL BABIES FOR YOU TO SAVE!"

 

103070[/snapback]

This sounds too uncannily familiar to a conversation I've had with someone I know. Either I know you... or I know the person you are speaking of. Would her nickname start with a "P" and lives in the upper midwest?

[Ouroboros]

The silence from the Christians on this site is rather deafening, isn't it?

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WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE OF ALL THE NON-SPEAKING CHRISTIANS!

 

 

Did it bug you much?

[Amethyst]

WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE OF ALL THE NON-SPEAKING CHRISTIANS!

 

 

Did it bug you much?

 

[Guest JPD]

Would her nickname start with a "P" and lives in the upper midwest?

 

Which woman? My stepmother or the victim? If it's the former, she doesn't have a nickname that I'm aware of, and she lives in Nashville. If the latter, I don't know anything about her except that she is out of her mind. As far as I can tell, if you run in evangelical circles you ar highly likely to run into a similar story. Or were you kidding? It's so hard to tell on the ultrahyperglobalmeganet.

[Dianka]

Oh please! We all know WTF they say when they stand on street corners handing out pictures of partial birth abortions. "Children don't deserve this." I remember walking into an abortion clinic (not for myself, I was there as a shoulder to cry on) and on the way in I thought we were going to die. I heard on of them scream "you're a bitch, and you don't deserve to ever have kids." I also heard "you are a mother now, you have every obligation to keep that child safe."

 

 

I just thought about that last night when I was listening to the radio. The topic was a mother that refused metabolic testing for her child. For anyone who doesn't know, this is the test done right after birth were they prick the kid on the foot for A DROP of blood. It is used to teat a variety of disorders that cannot be tested any other way and retain the efficacy of the results. The Christian mother cited the bible verse

Lev 17:11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (copied from Han's post)

 

Curious.

 

 

She's a mother now, and has every obligation to keep that child safe.