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Goodbye Jesus

Homeschooling


Stamps1962

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Since no homescholer is required to take a standardized state test at the end of their high school stint, we have no real way of seeing of homeschool is better or worse than public or private school. Since many homeschool programs are based on Christian ideologies that science is wrong, I would gander that most are not getting the adequate education.

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I think I would homeschool my kid when they're young so that I can teach them to read and do math 5000x better than all the other dipshits. Then I'd put them in 1st grade and watch them own.

A very good friend of mine from primary school had his mother do just that. That kid was messed up, I wouldn't recommend it from what I saw.

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I was homeschooled through all my school-aged years and for the most part I think it was a great experience. It started out because my mom just didn't like the idea of sending her five-year-old (me) to school for the day...and then my parents decided to just continue. After a while it became a way to indoctrinate us...very handy for that....and as a result the science side of my education was rather neglected.

 

If I were to ever have kids one day I'd like to homeschool them. I love the flexibility that goes with it. There's probably also the draw of familiarity too...it's the kind of education *I* know. There are some things I would definitely change...ESPECIALLY the indoctrination part!!!! Actually, I was talking to a customer at work this morning about homeschooling and how it's not for everyone. The benefits of it are strongly affected by where you live, what opportunities are available, and how many incomes the family needs. For her as a single mom in a small town, there weren't many opportunities and she had to work to make sure her kid got to eat every day. And, like many parents I've talked to, she said both she and her kid needed breaks from each other that school and work provided. So....again, not for everyone.

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Virtually without exception, those kids are more confident, more accomplished, and more socially adept than their government-schooled peers. They're taught to do and explore, rather than just passively accept what they're told. They aren't shoved into a little box (e.g. all 10-year-olds together in a classroom, regardless of their maturity or interests). They don't have bells telling them what they're "allowed" to think at any given time and interrupting their thought processes when x-minutes have gone by.

 

Lol. I would agree with this paragraph if it was saying the exact opposite thing. But the most bizarre idea here is that homeschoolers are more socially adept. I don't see how this can possibly be the case. Part of the experience of going to school is about interacting with your peers and developing together. I wouldn't want this argument to just linger on since we both probably have different stereotypes of what public education or homeschooling usually looks like, so I'd just ask you to provide a source for that idea.

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Since no homescholer is required to take a standardized state test at the end of their high school stint, we have no real way of seeing of homeschool is better or worse than public or private school. Since many homeschool programs are based on Christian ideologies that science is wrong, I would gander that most are not getting the adequate education.

 

Actually, if the homeschooler is college bound you could compare PSATs and SATs which are required by colleges for admittance. For the non-college bound student you could compare GED scores if there was a homeschool designation. My kids take the national Stanford test each year (ever since 3rd grade) so that I know how they are progressing in each subject. Stanford could release the information that compares public, private and homeschool testers compared on a national level. So could the IOWA test. That would be interesting to see.

 

The big trend in high school homeschooling right now is to either start dual credit at the local community colleges or to take tests that allow you to test out of a college credit for minimal money. The local homeschool conventions now have vendors who have formed a new niche in the market. They will guide your kids through their bachelor degree in 2 1/2 years for under $10,000 using this study and test out method combined, distance learning, and on-site classes at the university from which they want to graduate.

 

There are definitely homeschoolers who feel raising future wives and mothers more important than preparing them for a college education, but there is a rising trend for people to homeschool as an affordable option to private schooling. Alternative groups are popping up all over. Secular homeschool groups are becoming more and more common. Most of the people I know who are pulling their kids out of public school do so because they feel powerless in the education machine, get frustrated with mediocre levels of learning, or their child experienced bad social situations.

 

I think the key to a good education is involved parents, teachers who like to teach (and who can), administrators who get good stuff for the school and make common sense rules, and a pool of good, quality friends. It's really a nice freedom to be able to have all three options available to grow your kid.

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"The local homeschool conventions now have vendors who have formed a new niche in the market. They will guide your kids through their bachelor degree in 2 1/2 years for under $10,000 using this study and test out method combined, distance learning, and on-site classes at the university from which they want to graduate."

 

Nope. That above is bad information. I just checked their site and it is now $15,000 and the degree comes from Liberty University which is a christian university. Sorry. I heard the talk back in my fundamentalist days and had to go back and get my facts straight. They award degrees in religion, business, education and psychology - all christian based of course.

 

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I, too, was homeschooled, since real schools are full of the secks and music with beats. My parents foresaw that I wouldnt possibly want to obtain tertiary education, so this was no big loss, to say nothing of my sisters. Unlike what others may have experienced, being homeschooled was quite stressful since my academic performace was intented to be used as an up-yours to all the naysayers. A quick book to the back of the head does teach you not to forget to carry the one.

 

Wasn't all bad, though. I did like being able to learn at my own pace (a bit faster than everyone else, I found out when I went back into a 'real' school), and am thankful for certain academic advantages I feel I can attribute to this.

 

On the other hand, having to re-enter the system (in year 8, no less) was absolutely horrific.

 

As to the OP's concern about seeing so many children not at school during the daytime, I'd say quit worrying about it. Not only is it not your business, but for all you know, those children are receiving the most superb education possible.

 

Or the shittiest.

Wouldn't that depend on the parent's level of education? In fundyland homeschooling myself and my siblings was basically the only church-approved way my mother could use her BSci. I saw an enormous range in education quality through the various groups of likeminded people we were involved in.

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Non-school dad here. My son is 18 and, technically, "graduated", but he never went to a conventional school until junior year, for one particular program that interested him. There are a lot of different ways to live, and we don't all have to like the same things. Some kids and their families do well participating in school and some don't. There are also a lot of ways to live without school, from the school-at-home idea, where mom tries to teach all subjects at the kitchen table, to a completely non-school model. We were closer to the latter. Our way has worked well for us, and I certainly don't want to give up my family's freedom to live as we want just because we don't like how some other people use their freedom.

 

Certainly, we have little in common with the sheltering religious types, and I don't think we even really know anyone like that. (We call them the "denim jumper crowd.") Our motivation was the exact opposite, to make the kid's world bigger that it would be if he were in school, not smaller. Everyone mentions social skills, but, at least with the kids I know, MerryG is on the mark. (My only quibble is the phrase "without exception", because I'm never that sure of anything, and there must be exceptions.) The only source data I can provide RintrahRoars is a suggestion to spend time with some of these kids, and the young adults they become. I don't have any concern about my son's social skills, because he's spent his life pursuing his interests with peers and mentors of all ages, rather than confined in an age-segregated classroom where the only adults he knows are teachers. Our job was to help him find and navigate those opportunities, mentors, and communities.

 

I can tell you that the kid who had almost no formal classroom experience at 16 was able to figure out how to function in that environment, and, by the end of the year, was 2nd place for a "student of the year" award in his program. His second year, he earned that award, which involved not only classroom work, but also community service and a board interview with a panel of professionals in the area of interest. I share this not (only) to brag about my kid, but because it supports my claim that his social skills are adequate. And I further claim he is by no means exceptional among his non-schooled peers. Again, I don't know any sheltering religious types, but I have had the pleasure of getting to know dozens of non-schooled kids from around the country, and my son probably knows hundreds. Of course, they're all different, but not a single one has ever struck me as someone who is deficient or unprepared for life. They have passions and skills, they can carry on an intelligent conversation, and they look me in the eye when we talk.

 

This year, with a few other families, we had a "graduation" celebration, and I read the famous quote from Robert Heinlein:

 

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

 

I've been lucky enough to see my son do most of these things already. He's had the freedom to do them precisely because he wasn't sitting in school.

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Since no homescholer is required to take a standardized state test at the end of their high school stint, we have no real way of seeing of homeschool is better or worse than public or private school. Since many homeschool programs are based on Christian ideologies that science is wrong, I would gander that most are not getting the adequate education.

 

This assumes that a) standardized tests measure what they claim to measure, and B) what they claim to measure is useful, and c) that we even know what better or worse schooling is, what an adequate education is, or how well "schooling" and "education" correlate. I remain skeptical of all of those.

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Heh. "B-closed parenthesis" turned into smirky sunglasses emoticon. Noob mistake.

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Huh. Pox, your family's education style sounds a lot like my family's. We call it un-schooling (not sure why). Very fluid and flexible and helping the kiddos to learn the things they're interested in and broaden their horizons to discover new things to be interested in. Whenever possible, my parents have tried to provide lessons in things we were or are interested in like horseback riding, hip hop dance lessons, photography, swimming lessons, painting, clay sculpting, chemistry, and learning how to start a business. My sister was obsessed with horses (hence the riding lessons), so they took her once a week to the riding instructor's farm so she could muck stalls and brush horses and clean tack for a couple hours when she was about 10. She LOVED it and learned a lot.

 

As for the socialization bit....I was always good at communicating with older and younger people. My peers, on the other hand.....I just couldn't connect with them because I wasn't interested in clothes and makeup and boys and the latest movies and music, and that's all most of the ones *I* knew could talk about. It's getting easier now that I'm in my 20's though. =)

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I have found home-schooled kids in our circles generally to be better at socializing with adults and children of various ages than their peers in public school. We have always had a desire to give our kids the basics supplemented with copious quantities of what they enjoy and are naturally gifted at. They do sports with kids their ages, they attend various classes, but we have a lot of flexibility with our schedule, and we enjoy our freedom. Other home-school families that we know are a mixed bag. Aside from the indoctrination, which they would likely receive just as much of if they attended public school, they seem to do a pretty good job. The young adults are turning out great. The indoctrination does not even appear to be sticking for some of them. Some have been able to get college credits during high school as well.

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Unschooling...the way to go! I took my child out of school in the 3rd grade because of the "education" he wasn't receiving, along with the xtian indoctrination he was receiving. I started out teaching him in the "traditional" way, but that didn't work. I then read Gatto's book about UN-schooling and tried that. What a difference! He still had weekends to associate with other kids his age. He was even allowed on the basketball and baseball teams with the school, because it was a city Parks and Recreation program.

 

He is a self-taught musician, now. Composes his own music. Has 2 CD's out and has written musical scores for 2 movies and he's only 26.

 

And I truly believe, if I had forced traditional school on him he would not have flourished like he has.

 

He has recently decided to go to college and all he needs is his GED and to take an Acu-placer test to get in.

 

All I ever heard from other "schooling" individuals was that he would end up being a drooling anti-social terrorist. Well he's not. He is a very accomplished individual.

 

I am very proud of my un-schooled son and wouldn't have changed my decision for the world.

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Virtually without exception, those kids are more confident, more accomplished, and more socially adept than their government-schooled peers. They're taught to do and explore, rather than just passively accept what they're told. They aren't shoved into a little box (e.g. all 10-year-olds together in a classroom, regardless of their maturity or interests). They don't have bells telling them what they're "allowed" to think at any given time and interrupting their thought processes when x-minutes have gone by.

 

Lol. I would agree with this paragraph if it was saying the exact opposite thing. But the most bizarre idea here is that homeschoolers are more socially adept. I don't see how this can possibly be the case. Part of the experience of going to school is about interacting with your peers and developing together. I wouldn't want this argument to just linger on since we both probably have different stereotypes of what public education or homeschooling usually looks like, so I'd just ask you to provide a source for that idea.

 

My source for the idea is, as noted, my experience with homeschoolers.

 

What happens in government school? Children are placed in passive groups based solely on age. They're taught that this one, limited group constitutes "their peers" and that everybody else -- adults, children a year younger, children a year older, kids their same age who go to a different school -- are "other." They can't move away from kids who are mean or petty or shallow or slower than they. They're just stuck, and stuck in a rigid, institutional environment to boot. We're told that this process is the best possible form of socialization.

 

I don't think so.

 

OTOH, the homeschooled kids I know (and I'm not claiming that this is true of all homeschooled kids; just the ones I'm best acquainted with) interact with the wider world. They not only have plenty of peers in their neighborhoods, in play groups, in sports teams, in classes they choose to take. But they interact with clerks at the hardware store, adults in the neighborhood, children of a variety of ages, docents at museums, librarians, auto mechanics -- you name it.

 

Since many homeschoolers are encouraged to involve themselves in projects, they learn how to find the people who can help them get things done and interact with those people are something other than the subserviant teacher-pupil level.

 

Institutionalized schooling is only a few hundred years old and was developed in Prussia (whose methods were directly copied in the U.S.) not to produce happy, well-educated, well-socialized children but to produce obedient factory workers, clerks, and soldiers for the government. That we now see this constrained and artificial system as the healthy norm speaks volumes about the power of conditioning.

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I have mixed feelings on the subject of homeschooling.

 

When one of my younger brothers was having trouble with school my parents decided to try homeschooling him and the rest of us as well. They did this for both academic and christian reasons-- often complaining about the liberal bias and brainwashing of their children. I was homeschooled from 8-11 grade and then returned for my senior year. The first year was fairly structured learning as we had lesson books to follow. My mother tought my younger siblings and I helped with that and was left to do my own work with minimal involvment. After the first year I did not have lesson plans and was pretty much allowed to study whatever I liked. We were involved in a large group that got together once a month and I took ballet with some girls from that group twice a week for a year.

 

My brother who was having so many problems in school benifited greatly from the one-on-one attention and was finally able to begin learning to read at the age of 9. He was able go to a public high school without problem and made decent grades. It is obvious to me now that my brother had an undiagnosed learning disorder. I can see this now because my son has a learning disorder which affects his language comprehension and reading skills. While the public school system failed to recognize and get the proper support for my brother, it has made a positive effort for my son and he shows great progress.

 

As for myself, I truly wish I had remained in public school. I was a voracious reader so my mind did not stagnate, but I lagged behind in math and science. When I left public school I was ahead in all of my subjects and recomemmended for advanced classes, but when I took the ACT in the 11th grade before reinrolling only my english and reading were advanced. I had managed to teach myself Algebra, but nothing past that. The only information I had on evolution was the creationist stuff I learned in church. During my senior year of high school I did well on tests, but couldn't get motivated to do homework unless the subject interested me.

 

The most harmful aspect of it now that I look back on it was the isolation from the real world. Can you imagine, I spoke to practically no one who was not a christian for 4 years! 4 years of hearing no real person express opinions that would disagree with my parents perspective. Internet and tv usage was monitered so my only link to outside thought were in the books I would get from the library.

 

I know my personal experience is not representative of homeschooling as a whole, but I tend to approach the subject with caution. Can it be done well? Yes! Is it right for everyone? No.

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Hi Rabble. If were given a choice at the time, would you have gone back to public school? Did you enjoy studying on your own? Has being behind in math and science caused difficulties for you?

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Hi Rabble. If were given a choice at the time, would you have gone back to public school? Did you enjoy studying on your own? Has being behind in math and science caused difficulties for you?

 

At the time I thought homeschooling was a great idea and I was all for it. When I was going into 10th I decided it would be best to go back to high school to learn the higher subjects since my mother was not able to teach them and my father was too busy working on his law degree, but Ii was convinced to stay one more year. My mother made a cursory effort to enroll me for 11th grade, but there was a problem with the school and it was given up. I made a big deal about wanting to go back for my senior year and they managed to enroll me at a different school than the first.

 

I liked being able to choose my own subjects, but I really do learn best with a teacher. I'm also pretty competitive by nature and find that having other students around fuels my academic competitiveness .

 

My lack of science definitly affected my christian views. I bought young earth creationism hook line and sinker. That was all I knew. Other than that... it's hard to say. I tried college right out of high school and stopped going to classes halfway through the semester. I was both overwhelmed and apathetic about my future at that point. Stay at home mom was drummed into me from birth and I guess Ii just knew that I was destined for that eventually.

 

Since my deconversion I've rediscovered my love for learning and for science and math. I'm finally back in school working on my undergrad and have a 4.0 for the classes I've taken since returning. I'm just really sad it's taken this long.

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I remember him because his mom would give him weird stuff for snacks. For example, he'd often eat banana peels for snack time. He had other weird snacks that his mom gave him.

 

When I was growing up the kids next door were home schooled and they weren't allowed to eat sugar, just like Rod and Todd on the Simpsons.

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I remember him because his mom would give him weird stuff for snacks. For example, he'd often eat banana peels for snack time. He had other weird snacks that his mom gave him.

 

When I was growing up the kids next door were home schooled and they weren't allowed to eat sugar, just like Rod and Todd on the Simpsons.

 

:) Our kids didn't get a lot of sugar when they were younger. They didn't miss it.

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Virtually without exception, those kids are more confident, more accomplished, and more socially adept than their government-schooled peers. They're taught to do and explore, rather than just passively accept what they're told. They aren't shoved into a little box (e.g. all 10-year-olds together in a classroom, regardless of their maturity or interests). They don't have bells telling them what they're "allowed" to think at any given time and interrupting their thought processes when x-minutes have gone by.

 

Lol. I would agree with this paragraph if it was saying the exact opposite thing. But the most bizarre idea here is that homeschoolers are more socially adept. I don't see how this can possibly be the case. Part of the experience of going to school is about interacting with your peers and developing together. I wouldn't want this argument to just linger on since we both probably have different stereotypes of what public education or homeschooling usually looks like, so I'd just ask you to provide a source for that idea.

 

Think about what school is, compared to what the rest of human life is:

 

In every other part of society, people walk around pretty freely. There are old people around, there are little kids around, and you're expected to know how to interact with both. Often, there isn't really anybody "in charge" and there are few strict rules, beyond the obvious (don't rob or hit people in the grocery store, but you can walk where you want, go to the bathroom when you want, buy what you want, talk to anybody who will talk back, sing to yourself, take as long as you need...). Asking a peer to help you understand something is considered normal--often admirable. If you have unusual personal needs, interests or desires, it's entirely possible that you can find a community of people who either share your traits or will welcome you regardless. If you behave truly outrageously, however, you will either be ignored/scorned or be in serious trouble with life-altering consequences (depending on what you do). How successful you are as a person is determined pretty much by your *own* goals: you are free to decide that you want success to mean "getting married and having children" or "publishing a novel" or "having time to paint everyday" or "homesteading and living off the grid" or "using whatever resources I have to put food on the table every day" or "being able to hold a job," or whatever is else is meaningful to you.

 

In schools, you are surrounded by people within one year of your own age, plus one person who is at least a decade older. That person is *constantly* in control. They dictate everything--when you can talk, move your body, eat and excrete. Due to their role, it's *possible* but very difficult, to view them as a human being who has any rights, responsibilities or needs; they function largely as a pretty predictable machine: they tell you what to do, and you're supposed to do it. In exchange for doing it, you may sometimes go to them to vend you extra privileges. You can do almost anything to them, though, and they *have* to take it. They are the law-giver, but they have little real power. If you chose to, you can laugh at them; disrespect them; and abuse them emotionally and psychologically, and because they have to maintain the sense of being in control, they can't express back any sign that they're being harmed. Sure, you'll get detention or something, but next week, you'll be back in that classroom, and so will they, and it is their job to treat you nicely, no matter what. And you both know it. If you don't chose to be that sort of person, then maybe you *do* recognize the humanity of the teacher....but you don't want to be that person's next target, do you? are you going to do anything to attract their attention?

 

Meanwhile, on the other side of the equation, there's the way adults treat children--which often involves assuming the worst at every moment. I hated when I was a kid, and somebody would see me waving something around and accuse me of *trying* to hit people, or see that I'd done a good job with something and accuse me of cheating at it. I work with kids now and see the exact same thing--an adult wants all the kids to gather up for lunch or something, and immediately--while the kids are already obeying-- they adopt a harsh tone and start yelling, "I want you all in a line! I can wait here all day for you--If I hear anybody talking, or see anybody getting out of line, you'll all have to wait!" and on and on...yelling at them for no reason at all, except that they are children.

 

Oh, and what is success? Success is defined by the lawgiver: to be successful, you must be able to sit still for upwards of 45 minutes at a time and do repetitive paper-work without getting bored. That's pretty much it. Oh, and if you really are *trying* to understand what you've been given, and ask a peer for help, that's cheating.

 

So then, what happens when the kids are alone together, as they often will be, given the adult/child ratio? For lack of real, valued, accepted input from anybody else-- a subculture forms, shaped entirely by the desires and interests of children within one year of age from each other. In order to be accepted, you need to master something that makes you attractive to 30 six-year-olds, or 12-year-olds, or 17-year-olds. We all know the guy who says ridiculous, inane things for a cheap laugh, or plays cruel, stupid jokes. Why? Because it made him popular in middle school or high school and he never learned how to adjust to the "real world."

 

Where does this idea of the "real world" come from anyway? From the acknowledgement that there is nothing "real" about the society that we force children to live in. As soon as you're out of school, you have to completely resocialize yourself to a very different kind of world then you've lived in for your entire life.

 

 

 

So no...I really don't accept the idea that children should go to school to be "socialized." The kind of socialization they'd get from just being a valued part of society is orders of magnitude better than what they get being herded around like sheep, given orders, yelled at for no reason, left to discover that there are no real consequences for abusing people, and then released at each other to form their own culture.

 

Here's a blog from an unschooling mom, which I really love, and her take on the "socialization" issue:

 

Why My Kids Will Never Be Socialized

 

My Unsocialized Kids

 

 

Also, my experience of homeschooled people is pretty much the same as what you were quoting: they speak with the confidence that what they say is valuable, and with the compassion and understanding that other people's experiences are equally valuable. They are confident, kind and able to negotiate well in many different situations. Just as you'd expect from people who were raised to believe that they are truly valued--and that everybody else is truly valuable as well.

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Mling I like what you posted. I think there is a huge misconception about socializing our children. School does NOT socialize children, it imprisons them. It takes away their initiative and imagination. How can children be expected to preform exactly the same within each classroom?

 

Socialization? I didn't want my child socializing with the class bully. Or socializing with the other THIRD GRADERS who were performing oral sex? Did you know that there was a county in Georgia in 1997 where third graders in a particular school had the highest rate of STDs than any other third grade class in the nation? Third Grade????? And they are ranked higher? What is being taught in schools in the third grade?

 

I didn't want my child being tortured by the teacher.

 

I believed that there was absoultely no one would could teach my child with love and understanding any better than I could.

 

We did interact with other people of different ages, I did not sequester my child in a classroom and force him to learn something by the school districts' standards within a limited period of time. I did not force him to play with other children he did not like. I did not force him to do certain physical exercises to be placed within a percentage norm set out by some unseen official. I did not force him to test to see if my child could get a certain grade that meant nothing.

 

And yet, he is highly social, highly intelligent, exceptionally talented and able to figure things out on his own.

 

With all the successes of homechooling, it angered me when people looked at me like I was abusing my child by homeschooling him.

 

I will never regret unschooling my child.

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P.S.

 

My child learned real science and higher math by hands on learning. He has never been deficent in those areas. We just never sat im down and force fed it to him.

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Mling makes some good points, but overall I'm afraid her comment is an unsupportable caricature of public education. I became an educator in my late thirties, convinced that public education was a mess and it needed second career professionals like myself to altruistically ride to the rescue. It didn't take me long to see that most teachers do a great job and that the real problems are poor parenting and government interference that seems almost designed to undermine the institution. Fifteen years latyer, I am still fighting the good fight, but now I know who isn't the enemy at least.

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P.S. My kids are doing great in public schools. There is a reason for that. Nothing happens by itself.

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I hear that, Ro-bear. Good on ya!

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