Vigile Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I've also understood paradoxes to be an issue that is true to a point, but then it falters. For example, the paradox of thrift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I've also understood paradoxes to be an issue that is true to a point, but then it falters. For example, the paradox of thrift. There are different kinds of paradoxes too. They're sorted in different categories and one certain kind (don't remember the term, veritum or something, not sure) are the ones that are true even though they look contradictory prima facia. Paradoxes in economics are in a special case since they're dealing with both macro and micro level at ones. They land in the mysterious land of calculus and chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 In the bible predestination means foreknew and NOT forepick! He chose ALL but not all will choose Him. Kinda hard to avoid 'forpickin' when you are all powerful, can know the outcome and then make the rules that lead to the outcome. A simplified example, if you set up a line of dominoes, the domino at the other end is going to fall over if the first domino is knocked over. You know it, you set it up that way, even if you don't touch the last domino. Exactly. If God is the "First Cause" (as the Kalaam argument states), then all effects are essentially ultimately caused by God. God can't be the first cause if there are multiple first causes. Free will is a cause, and presumably, not caused by God, so God is not a "first cause" if that's true. I noticed over the years that religious people wants to eat the cake and have it too, in every single argument. You know, the Bible somewhat suggests that there is a God the Mother to go with God the Father. For example, if there is a Heavenly Temple, then it was most certainly mandated by God the Mother wanting something bigger and better. On a serious note....the Scripture that suggests a man leaving his mother and father <snip>, to me, is in type of Jesus leaving Heaven. thus suggesting there is a Heavenly Mother.....that ultimately we will answer to....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 27, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted October 27, 2011 There are no contradictions in the Bible, only paradoxes. And the distinction between predestination and free will, and once-saved-always-saved versus the possibility of losing one's salvation, are paradoxes. Amazing. I used to say the same stupid shit. Two contradictory statements do not a paradox make. When the Bible says, for example, that once saved is always saved and elsewhere it says the opposite, that is a contradiction and it can't be honestly twisted into anything else. The apologist's real answer is, as always, it's magic so all bets are off and reality, logic and common sense must be suspended. This self imposed ignorance is then labeled "faith" and touted as a virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yask Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I'd not known any details relating to Calvinism before reading this. That being said, it sounds like the Calvanist's god is the very definition of Maltheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
believer Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Paradoxes in the Bible are verses that seem to oppose each other but are reconciled by other verses. btw, once-saved-always-saved versus can-lose-salvation is reconciled. Look at scriptures Philippians 1:6 and Romans 11:something in one of the posts above, and meditate on what was said. I think you will find that it says that if you fear losing your salvation, you can be confident that you are eternally secure, but if you are confident that you won't, you ought to fear. It is kind of like knowing you're humble and being proud of it. Or being proud of your humility and then humbled by your pride. It's hard to be humble when you can be proud of humiltiy, but not impossible. So then, paradoxes are difficult but not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
believer Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 There are no contradictions in the Bible, only paradoxes. And the distinction between predestination and free will, and once-saved-always-saved versus the possibility of losing one's salvation, are paradoxes. Amazing. I used to say the same stupid shit. Two contradictory statements do not a paradox make. When the Bible says, for example, that once saved is always saved and elsewhere it says the opposite, that is a contradiction and it can't be honestly twisted into anything else. The apologist's real answer is, as always, it's magic so all bets are off and reality, logic and common sense must be suspended. This self imposed ignorance is then labeled "faith" and touted as a virtue. Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:41. "Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind but he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant?" Isaiah 42:19 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight)" 2 Corinthians 5:7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Paradoxes in the Bible are verses that seem to oppose each other but are reconciled by other verses. Like how in Act 1 Jesus tells the disciples do not leave Jerusalem but in Matthew 28 the disciples were told to leave Jerusalem and go to Galilee. It's easy to resolve this "paradox". The man who wrote (or re-wrote) one book favored the Christian church in Jerusalem while the man who (re) wrote the other book favored the Christian church in Galilee. Each church had a One Real True holy scripture that proved that it was the real Church. Later on Christians would use relics like the bones of Peter, the Shard of the True Cross or various shrouds to prove which church was the realist of them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT761138 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Even if he can wash his hands of free will, he knew the outcome and had the power to affect it and yet chose not to. There is no way this god of omnis can escape responsibility for pain and suffering and evil and most importantly, something as horrendous as billions of people sent to hell as the result of the rules he created; people who wouldn't have suffered had he simply just chose not to create them since he 'foreknew' the outcome. This is why I stopped believing in Christianity. I could accept miracles, resurrection, etc. but all the omni's to believe about God were absurd. In order to believe in omniscience and omnipotence, you have to sacrifice omnibenevolence. And that is exactly what Calvinism does. Most forms of Christianity are just Calvinism-Lite; Calvinism just makes the implicit explicit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 You know, the Bible somewhat suggests that there is a God the Mother to go with God the Father. For example, if there is a Heavenly Temple, then it was most certainly mandated by God the Mother wanting something bigger and better. Yes originally Asherah was the consort to El. She filled the mother role until the Priests at the Jerusalem Temple decided to eliminate the competition. On a serious note....the Scripture that suggests a man leaving his mother and father <snip>, to me, is in type of Jesus leaving Heaven. thus suggesting there is a Heavenly Mother.....that ultimately we will answer to....lol. You were not serious? God use to have a wife goddess. Then later prophets tried to make Israel and Judah the wives of God while Asherah worship was forbidden. Then later Paul decided that Jesus would be the groom and Christians would be the wife. Religion evolves over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChurchSucks Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 I'd be a fool if I thought I could delve into the depths of the heart of God to find out whether He premeditates everything or not. There is scripture to support both sides on this issue. Exactly, that's because the Bible is not cohesive - both Calvinism and Arminianism are supported scripturally, even though their ideas contradict each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momof8 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Do we have any Calvinists here? I myself used to be a strict 5 pointer. I had no problem believing that God created some people simply for the purpose of going to hell and burning for all eternity. The non elect have no chance at salvation because God just didn't want them to be saved. What convinced me otherwise (while I was still clinging to faith) was that if Calvinism really is true, then the implications of it are that man is not responsible for his actions. Even though no Calvinist would argue this, it is clear that they are defying logic by doing so. Think about it: If God predetermined everything - even actions - then our entire existence is one big charade. Take for example, the doctrine of Unconditional Election - that God chooses some people for salvation not based on anything intrinsic to the person, but rather solely by grace. On the other side of the coin, the logical implication of that is that something called Unconditional Reprobation must also be true, meaning that God chose most people for hell not based on anything intrinsic to the person (not even sin!). So then, man does not burn in hell because he is a sinner, he burns in hell simply because God wanted him to. Sin was simply just the "sign" of the non-elect, whereas "faith" is the "sign" of the elect. Neither come about from man's choice (because he has none), but rather are gifted to the individual by wrath/justice and grace respectively. Knowing this, how can anyone be a Calvinist? I want to know. ChurchSucks, I have always abhorred Calvinism! My brother tends to lean this way and we have fought many times over this. Of course, the fact that this seems to be the way it is, some people have great lives through no other reason than they were born into a good situation. I am one of those people. Other people, just got a shitty lot in life! Where is there any fairness in that? Of course, I am probably going to be a Christian, I was born to loving Christian parents! And anyway, the Bible seems to lean towards the Calvinistic way of thinking too. Which is why I am on this forum to begin with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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