The Cross And The Resurrection

[PatrickG]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact.

 

Hi believer,

 

Jesus may well have been killed on the cross. I have no doubt that he did not deserve it.

 

 

 

There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

Not sure about that empty bomb. How do they know which one was his? It has been a long time. How can I be sure that Jesus really arose from the dead?

 

Just as Jesus was able to say "I and the Father are one", so I am able to say "I am one with God". Things get distorted in time. Jesus never wrote a book, that we know of. It is all second hand accounts.

 

 

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

Well a guy at work yesterday mentioned that aliens brought us our technology..........he was serious.

Not sure how it all evolved. Maybe there is a God.

 

I can tell you that Christianity is a little screwy. Why would God require a sacrifice in order to forgive sin?

did you ever wonder why God had to kill in order to forgive?

You don't find that odd?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

 

That fact that Christianity changed the course of history does not mean that it is true.

 

If Jesus is not ever coming back, then believing such a thing is a delusion that has consequences.

I call it escapism. Christians think that God is going to clean this mess up but it is not going to happen. We have to clean things up. God is not stepping in, except through you and me.

[believer]

There are worse and more painful ways to die. Besides, he was only dead for 36 hours (supposedly), so God revoked the payment. It's like putting a coin on a string and pay the parking meter, then pull the coin up again. It's unethical and no real payment was done.

Jesus was God, so the payment was infinite. In that 36 hours the infinite nature of God experienced the equivalent of an eternity in hell multiplied by every person that will ever receive Him. God raised Him from the dead because everything was paid in full: Jesus didn't need to be dead anymore for the redemption of His chosen to take place. And to say that no payment was made is like saying that Jesus never suffered. A coin is an inanimate object; Jesus was a person who died for us. He was separated from His Father.

[PatrickG]

No, not magical pixie dust. It's that God suffered in your place to redeem you from hell. What, you think it wasn't painful for Jesus to shed His blood?

 

 

God wanted to redeem me from hell? Christians do not understand that their own theology says that God is "all knowing, All powerful, and everywhere present".

 

The doctrine of hell, ties God hands. God can not save man, who he wants to save. Now God who is all knowing already knows this. God knows that most will burn for all eternity. The screams will always be heard by God because he is everywhere present. Do you think that God can ignore the suffering of most of mankind for all eternity?

 

Not a God of love. Not a merciful God.

 

So you must throw that doctrine away. Hell does not work.

[believer]

Just remembered Hebrews 6, and am giving up. If any of you ever really had a relationship with Christ and then rejected Him later, you cannot come back. Your only hope is if you never knew Him in the first place. Your unbelief doesn't prove His inexistence or lack of love toward you. But if you want to prove that God isn't real, prove to me that Hebrews 6 is a lie by returning to Jesus.

[believer]

Okay, one more. God's attribute of justice is pleased by hell, but you would only understand this if you suffered persecution as a Christian, where people do their best to keep you out of heaven.

[PatrickG]

Just remembered Hebrews 6, and am giving up. If any of you ever really had a relationship with Christ and then rejected Him later, you cannot come back. Your only hope is if you never knew Him in the first place. Your unbelief doesn't prove His inexistence or lack of love toward you. But if you want to prove that God isn't real, prove to me that Hebrews 6 is a lie by returning to Jesus.

 

 

Why are you giving up?

 

I enjoy theological discussion and really don't find all that many people that do.

 

It is a bit juvenile to stomp your feet and leave the room. Stick around. Let this grow. Don't give up.

[PatrickG]

Okay, one more. God's attribute of justice is pleased by hell, but you would only understand this if you suffered persecution as a Christian, where people do their best to keep you out of heaven.

 

Really? To god it is just for a beloved human being to suffer.............burn........be tormented for all eternity?

 

I think that I am a just man. I would not have people suffer for all eternity. I would put an end to it. I am more merciful then your version of a just God.

 

Even the Bible says "Mercy triumphs over judgment!".

[stryper]

Does calling me a troll make you feel better about your unbelief?

 

 

You're assumption about me feeling "bad" and therefore needing to feel better about unbelief is ignorant. You know nothing about me.

 

As to calling you a troll. You sign up today. You've made 18 posts as of 23:34 CDT. Most In this thread, and the first thing you start off with spouting the same arguements that many before you have. For the most part they left. You will too because in all your post you have given me no indication that you are any different than the rest.

 

:casts flamstrike:

[Astreja]

Jesus was God, so the payment was infinite.

 

Believer, your math is ass-backwards. If it actually happened, the payment was infinitesmal. An eternal entity suffering for a finite time is essentially 1/∞ units of suffering, or as Douglas Adams put it in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, "as close to zero as makes no odds."

 

And how could your alleged god come back to life if it was really and truly dead? Did some other god resurrect the kid, or what?

[Margee]

Dearest Heavenly Bible God, Father, Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit, The Creator of the Universe,

 

I come to you with the utmost sincerity of my heart, to talk with you. I have wanted to please you all my life. I have searched for you all my life. I have wanted to be one of your chosen. I never wanted to even worry on this earth about going to your hell. So I tried to be good. Yes, I screwed up quite a few times, made quite a few mistakes, but they told me it was because I was 'blood and 'flesh' and that you were like the potter, taking this ‘blob’ of sinful clay and turning me into a diamond. I have always asked for your forgiveness and to give me another chance to prove myself unto you. I always wanted to strengthen and prove myself for you – but you did not want to prove yourself for me, no matter how much I prayed.

First of all, God doesn't need to prove Himself to anyone. The fact that you asked Him to prove Himself to you proves that you didn't really believe at all, you just thought you did. Also, you never had to prove yourself to Him, all you had to do was receive Him by faith. You had religion and not relationship. If you had had relationship and not religion, you would have known that salvation is by grace through faith and the free gift of God, all you ever had to do was receive Him and the gift of salvation. But instead, it seems to me that you kept asking God to prove to you that He is who He says He is before you take that step of faith. But faith is not like that; it has to be blind (see 2 Corinthians 5:7 and John 9:40-41) Once you take the step of faith He will start to reveal all kinds of things to you. It is not "Seeing is believing," but "Believing is seeing" I can testify to this, for I have seen true miracles happen; but if I didn't have faith in Christ I might have passed them off as chicanery.

 

Please forgive me for missing any signs that you did try to give me.

 

I have also, throughout the last 30 years, asked for more faith because I always felt as if I didn't have enough. I was honest with you about this. I told you everything. I confessed everything. I was told by many, that the 'mustard seed’ was good enough and that's all I had to have. But I wanted more than a seed of faith. I wanted big faith; enough to convince my mind of you, enough to stop the questions that I continued to drive you crazy with. Enough to move all the mountains in my life.

 

You didn't miss any signs because God didn't give you any except for one, just like He does with every unbeliever. You must have known about the historicity of His death on the Cross and HIs resurrection; why didn't you believe that sign? Please tell me when you answer.

 

Please forgive me for this lack of faith that I had during all the past years.

 

I even joked with you, so many times that YOU were the one who gave me this inquisitive personality. You are supposed to be all powerful and therefore you could have changed me. I asked you to change me. Why didn't you? Why did you hesitate? Were you testing me all along like you did your servant, Job? I was even straightforward about that and told you that I would not pass that kind of test. Then I asked you why you would even want to test us? Why would you – a loving, kind father, even allow this devil you allowed to fall from grace, sit by our side and watch as we suffered through many horrific things in life? We are your children. You made us. You created us. You didn’t answer.

Maybe God considered you righteous at some point, because the scripture says that God tests the righteous. Yes, God tested you as Job. It is not His fault that you couldn't handle the test. In fact, by testing you at all He was complimenting you as righteous.

 

 

Please forgive me for my reservations with this issue.

 

Now I am learning that you might not be there at all. You have watched me at my computer. You have seen the research I’ve been doing in the past 5 years. You have seen and hear me questioning the bible since the night I was ‘saved’. I have asked you a hundred times in the last year to show yourself to me. I have screamed in agony. I have told you that are about to lose me. I have asked you if you care that I am falling away from the faith. And still you do nothing. You don’t even kill me. I was honest before you concerning this ‘doubting Thomas’ syndrome.

Were you really saved if you were questioning the Bible? See 1 Thessalonians 2:13. Were you falling away, or did you simply lack faith altogether?

 

 

Can you really see what’s in my heart? If you can, and you are truly a loving entity - will you please forgive me?

 

You give me no clues whatsoever. The world is falling apart. We are killing each other. There are murders, rapes, poverty, and slavery. There are people fighting over whose land is whose and bombings everywhere. Do you see this? There is torture, starvation, cancer, drowning, dismemberment, and very painful diseases. You are supposed to be ‘all knowing.’ You could give us the cure for cancer and yet you remain silent. There is an epidemic of depression and suicide and thus far - you do nothing. How could a good and powerful God who loves you stand aside, unmoved to action, while such things happen?

This is a hard question to answer except to say that all of this suffering is the result of sin, and God calls people in the church to do their part to alleviate these sufferings. God heals people of cancer just by touching them. I wonder if people would give God the glory for such a thing if there was a cure. And it isn't true that God does nothing. He is working through His church to bring relief to many countries.

 

 

Please forgive me for being angry at you.

 

My biggest problem with you is you are supposed to be all powerful, you are supposed to be all good and yet all this evil exists. They have reassured me that when I get to heaven, you will explain all these mysteries to me. Why wait? Why not explain them to me now? Why not appear at the bottom of my bed in the late of night to have a talk? Why not appear in the sky (or wherever), even one community at a time and tell us that ‘’you will bring all things together for good’’ as you promised in your bible. So many unanswered prayers.

I'll give you a little talk on His behalf right now, for it is true that God uses people to speak the truth to others. All of the atrocities you see are the result of sin and the curse in Genesis 3. I don't know how you could have been a Christian for very long and not know this. Revelation declares that it will all pass away for the saints, but that unbelievers will experience hell and then the lake of fire forever. If you believed God when He said this I don't know how you could have turned your back on God. All the evil you see will be separatd from all that is good, but God is alowing it to be for the time being because He doesn't want to destroy the wheat with the chaff.

 

 

 

 

Please forgive me for questioning your invisibility and indistinguishable lack of presence.

 

You are hiding from me so effectively, that the world looks just as I would expect it to look, and be, without a God running the show. It doesn’t have any of the characteristics I would be anticipating to find, if there was a caring, intervening, superseding God. All of my attempts to confirm your existence have come up empty handed. You are hiding so successfully. I have to admit that in order to believe like I did for years, I must do it by ignoring the contrary evidence. I must resolve to this concept called ‘faith’. You are hiding so stubbornly, I must conclude, among other things, that you do not want or care if I believe anymore. If you wanted me to believe, you think would show me evidence in a thousand obvious ways, because my heart has yearned for the proof.

 

 

Maybe you were telling me the truth when you said that you believe again, because I gave you the proof in my post. Yes, He is a God who hides Himself, it even says that in Isaiah. But He also reveals Himself to people who receive Him by faith (not by sight--2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 3:5). He has revealed Himself to me in powerful ways.

 

 

Please forgive me for giving up the search.

 

One last quick discussion. Why didn’t you make us the way you wanted us to be in the first place? It could have been so simple – you are god! Why tempt us in the garden? Why make hell? Why scare people? Why would you do this to us? I have been taught that all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely each one followed God's will in his life. I really tried to do this. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life.

 

Why did you need to resort to human sacrifices to ‘satisfy’ the sin disease - which you created and tempted us with in the first place? Why be so cruel? Obviously, I will go to this hell you created for people who reject. It’s not that I want to reject you – I just don’t trust you anymore. Trust is reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, of a person or thing; confidence. It is the confident expectation of hope that someone really cares for your well-being. It gives you confidence in the certainty of the future. It is a loving person on whom

 

 

 

God started out by creating angels, but pride came into Lucifer's heart and he rebelled. So God worked out a plan to prove His goodness which Satan had called into question. Believe it or not, the things that happen on earth are a testimony of the goodness and grace of God. Good things do happen to people on earth, and His kindness leads them to repentance. And there was only one sacrifice, and the sacrifice was fully God. What is it to you that He was also 100% Man?

 

 

Please forgive me for not trusting you anymore.

 

I loved you for a long time and yet, you scare me with hell? And then you tell me that you are a loving God. Would you be affectionate and forgiving enough to take my hand and walk in hell with me?

 

I really wanted to believe in your existence, but you have gone to extraordinary lengths to make that difficult for me. The world looks just like there is no Bible God to me and I am heartbroken. It saddens me

 

 

Jesus went to hell for you. No one goes to hell without passing by the mercy seat. Salvation is a free gift. Somehow the last part of that got erased or I would respond to it.

 

 

 

One last prayer of forgiveness:

 

I pray that you will understand all my questions and forgive me for not believing the ‘Holy Bible’ that I was brought up to believe in. I am asking for your forgiveness for my doubting. I am asking for forgiveness for not really believing in you – but please – before I end this letter – would you always try to remember the heart that searched long and hard for you?

 

I will forgive you – if you will forgive me.

 

 

 

He will forgive you, if you appropriate His blood by faith. It is the only thing that brings forgiveness from God. And by the way, God doesn't need you to forgive Him, because He is perfect in every way, and cannot sin.

 

Thanks for tryin' believer - I was once brainwashed like you also - so my heart goes out to you..................... I know you are a bible believer, so you must make the attempt, however, I did not even look at your silly responses................heard it all before a hundred times, blah, blah, blah.......I don't believe in your ancient, tribal god or the foolish scriptures you write about!!

 

I do not believe that the bible was written or is the 'spoken word' of truth from god's own mouth - rather I believe that it was written by ancient tribes of humans, 2 - 4,000 years ago. They interpreted who they thought god was. (Remember, these people of ancient, still thought the world was flat and we lived under a dome)

 

I do not believe that it took 7 days to create the whole universe. My studying has shown me that it is much more complex than that. I also do not accept the story of adam and eve and talking snakes and being 'born in sin'. I do not believe in burning bushes that speak to you, men that live in fish, world wide floods, virgin births, parting of the seas, staffs turning into snakes, resurrection of the dead, witches, wizards, spirits, dragons, angels, demons or demon possessed people, talking donkeys, walking on water or giants.

 

I cannot support a god who promotes, rape, slavery, sexism, and genocide of men, woman and children, animal and human sacrifice. I reject the concept of everlasting punishment from a hateful god who would burn people for eternity. I cannot accept the god of the bible who would allow a devil (with more power than god himself) to roam the earth for the last two thousand years, causing the horrendous destruction, while he sits back and takes his time to make his new earth. An earth he could have made 'perfect' from the beginning.

 

Because I do not believe that we were born in sin - I also have to reject the idea that I need a savior to perform a human blood sacrifice for me. I cannot eat the body or drink the blood of Christ any longer. It's sounds much too 'cultish' to me.

 

I appreciate so much that you will understand and respect my position on the 'faith based' religion. I will continue to respect what you choose to believe also. That's what friends do.Please, don't be concerned about my going to hell, because I also do not believe that ancient myth either.

 

If there is a hell and I land there - I will be among all my friends on this site - that will make me very happy!!

[bornagainathiest]

Hey Believer!

 

What's your take on scripture, friend?

 

Innerant? That is, perfect and flawless and without error.

 

Infallible? As above, but also incapable of misleading or misguiding the faithful in any way.

 

Inspired? Not neccesarily either innerant or infallible, but still the word of God - written by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

None of the above?

 

Something else, maybe?

 

Please let us know.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Thackerie]

Dearest Heavenly Bible God, Father, Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit, The Creator of the Universe,

 

I come to you with the utmost sincerity of my heart, to talk with you. I have wanted to please you all my life. I have searched for you all my life. I have wanted to be one of your chosen. I never wanted to even worry on this earth about going to your hell. So I tried to be good. Yes, I screwed up quite a few times, made quite a few mistakes, but they told me it was because I was 'blood and 'flesh' and that you were like the potter, taking this ‘blob’ of sinful clay and turning me into a diamond. I have always asked for your forgiveness and to give me another chance to prove myself unto you. I always wanted to strengthen and prove myself for you – but you did not want to prove yourself for me, no matter how much I prayed.

First of all, God doesn't need to prove Himself to anyone. The fact that you asked Him to prove Himself to you proves that you didn't really believe at all, you just thought you did. Also, you never had to prove yourself to Him, all you had to do was receive Him by faith. You had religion and not relationship. If you had had relationship and not religion, you would have known that salvation is by grace through faith and the free gift of God, all you ever had to do was receive Him and the gift of salvation. But instead, it seems to me that you kept asking God to prove to you that He is who He says He is before you take that step of faith. But faith is not like that; it has to be blind (see 2 Corinthians 5:7 and John 9:40-41) Once you take the step of faith He will start to reveal all kinds of things to you. It is not "Seeing is believing," but "Believing is seeing" I can testify to this, for I have seen true miracles happen; but if I didn't have faith in Christ I might have passed them off as chicanery.

 

Please forgive me for missing any signs that you did try to give me.

 

I have also, throughout the last 30 years, asked for more faith because I always felt as if I didn't have enough. I was honest with you about this. I told you everything. I confessed everything. I was told by many, that the 'mustard seed’ was good enough and that's all I had to have. But I wanted more than a seed of faith. I wanted big faith; enough to convince my mind of you, enough to stop the questions that I continued to drive you crazy with. Enough to move all the mountains in my life.

 

You didn't miss any signs because God didn't give you any except for one, just like He does with every unbeliever. You must have known about the historicity of His death on the Cross and HIs resurrection; why didn't you believe that sign? Please tell me when you answer.

 

Please forgive me for this lack of faith that I had during all the past years.

 

I even joked with you, so many times that YOU were the one who gave me this inquisitive personality. You are supposed to be all powerful and therefore you could have changed me. I asked you to change me. Why didn't you? Why did you hesitate? Were you testing me all along like you did your servant, Job? I was even straightforward about that and told you that I would not pass that kind of test. Then I asked you why you would even want to test us? Why would you – a loving, kind father, even allow this devil you allowed to fall from grace, sit by our side and watch as we suffered through many horrific things in life? We are your children. You made us. You created us. You didn’t answer.

Maybe God considered you righteous at some point, because the scripture says that God tests the righteous. Yes, God tested you as Job. It is not His fault that you couldn't handle the test. In fact, by testing you at all He was complimenting you as righteous.

 

 

Please forgive me for my reservations with this issue.

 

Now I am learning that you might not be there at all. You have watched me at my computer. You have seen the research I’ve been doing in the past 5 years. You have seen and hear me questioning the bible since the night I was ‘saved’. I have asked you a hundred times in the last year to show yourself to me. I have screamed in agony. I have told you that are about to lose me. I have asked you if you care that I am falling away from the faith. And still you do nothing. You don’t even kill me. I was honest before you concerning this ‘doubting Thomas’ syndrome.

Were you really saved if you were questioning the Bible? See 1 Thessalonians 2:13. Were you falling away, or did you simply lack faith altogether?

 

 

Can you really see what’s in my heart? If you can, and you are truly a loving entity - will you please forgive me?

 

You give me no clues whatsoever. The world is falling apart. We are killing each other. There are murders, rapes, poverty, and slavery. There are people fighting over whose land is whose and bombings everywhere. Do you see this? There is torture, starvation, cancer, drowning, dismemberment, and very painful diseases. You are supposed to be ‘all knowing.’ You could give us the cure for cancer and yet you remain silent. There is an epidemic of depression and suicide and thus far - you do nothing. How could a good and powerful God who loves you stand aside, unmoved to action, while such things happen?

This is a hard question to answer except to say that all of this suffering is the result of sin, and God calls people in the church to do their part to alleviate these sufferings. God heals people of cancer just by touching them. I wonder if people would give God the glory for such a thing if there was a cure. And it isn't true that God does nothing. He is working through His church to bring relief to many countries.

 

 

Please forgive me for being angry at you.

 

My biggest problem with you is you are supposed to be all powerful, you are supposed to be all good and yet all this evil exists. They have reassured me that when I get to heaven, you will explain all these mysteries to me. Why wait? Why not explain them to me now? Why not appear at the bottom of my bed in the late of night to have a talk? Why not appear in the sky (or wherever), even one community at a time and tell us that ‘’you will bring all things together for good’’ as you promised in your bible. So many unanswered prayers.

I'll give you a little talk on His behalf right now, for it is true that God uses people to speak the truth to others. All of the atrocities you see are the result of sin and the curse in Genesis 3. I don't know how you could have been a Christian for very long and not know this. Revelation declares that it will all pass away for the saints, but that unbelievers will experience hell and then the lake of fire forever. If you believed God when He said this I don't know how you could have turned your back on God. All the evil you see will be separatd from all that is good, but God is alowing it to be for the time being because He doesn't want to destroy the wheat with the chaff.

 

 

 

 

Please forgive me for questioning your invisibility and indistinguishable lack of presence.

 

You are hiding from me so effectively, that the world looks just as I would expect it to look, and be, without a God running the show. It doesn’t have any of the characteristics I would be anticipating to find, if there was a caring, intervening, superseding God. All of my attempts to confirm your existence have come up empty handed. You are hiding so successfully. I have to admit that in order to believe like I did for years, I must do it by ignoring the contrary evidence. I must resolve to this concept called ‘faith’. You are hiding so stubbornly, I must conclude, among other things, that you do not want or care if I believe anymore. If you wanted me to believe, you think would show me evidence in a thousand obvious ways, because my heart has yearned for the proof.

 

 

Maybe you were telling me the truth when you said that you believe again, because I gave you the proof in my post. Yes, He is a God who hides Himself, it even says that in Isaiah. But He also reveals Himself to people who receive Him by faith (not by sight--2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 3:5). He has revealed Himself to me in powerful ways.

 

 

Please forgive me for giving up the search.

 

One last quick discussion. Why didn’t you make us the way you wanted us to be in the first place? It could have been so simple – you are god! Why tempt us in the garden? Why make hell? Why scare people? Why would you do this to us? I have been taught that all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely each one followed God's will in his life. I really tried to do this. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life.

 

Why did you need to resort to human sacrifices to ‘satisfy’ the sin disease - which you created and tempted us with in the first place? Why be so cruel? Obviously, I will go to this hell you created for people who reject. It’s not that I want to reject you – I just don’t trust you anymore. Trust is reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, of a person or thing; confidence. It is the confident expectation of hope that someone really cares for your well-being. It gives you confidence in the certainty of the future. It is a loving person on whom

 

 

 

God started out by creating angels, but pride came into Lucifer's heart and he rebelled. So God worked out a plan to prove His goodness which Satan had called into question. Believe it or not, the things that happen on earth are a testimony of the goodness and grace of God. Good things do happen to people on earth, and His kindness leads them to repentance. And there was only one sacrifice, and the sacrifice was fully God. What is it to you that He was also 100% Man?

 

 

Please forgive me for not trusting you anymore.

 

I loved you for a long time and yet, you scare me with hell? And then you tell me that you are a loving God. Would you be affectionate and forgiving enough to take my hand and walk in hell with me?

 

I really wanted to believe in your existence, but you have gone to extraordinary lengths to make that difficult for me. The world looks just like there is no Bible God to me and I am heartbroken. It saddens me

 

 

Jesus went to hell for you. No one goes to hell without passing by the mercy seat. Salvation is a free gift. Somehow the last part of that got erased or I would respond to it.

 

 

 

One last prayer of forgiveness:

 

I pray that you will understand all my questions and forgive me for not believing the ‘Holy Bible’ that I was brought up to believe in. I am asking for your forgiveness for my doubting. I am asking for forgiveness for not really believing in you – but please – before I end this letter – would you always try to remember the heart that searched long and hard for you?

 

I will forgive you – if you will forgive me.

 

 

 

He will forgive you, if you appropriate His blood by faith. It is the only thing that brings forgiveness from God. And by the way, God doesn't need you to forgive Him, because He is perfect in every way, and cannot sin.

I did not even look at your silly responses................I don't believe in your ancient, tribal god or the foolish scriptures you write about!!

 

I do not believe that the bible was written or is the 'spoken word' of truth from god's own mouth - rather I believe that it was written by ancient tribes of humans, 2 - 4,000 years ago. They interpreted who they thought god was. (Remember, these people of ancient, still thought the world was flat and we lived under a dome)

 

I do not believe that it took 7 days to create the whole universe. My studying has shown me that it is much more complex than that. I also do not accept the story of adam and eve and talking snakes and being 'born in sin'. I do not believe in burning bushes that speak to you, men that live in fish, world wide floods, virgin births, parting of the seas, staffs turning into snakes, resurrection of the dead, witches, wizards, spirits, dragons, angels, demons or demon possessed people, talking donkeys, walking on water or giants.

 

I cannot support a god who promotes, rape, slavery, sexism, and genocide of men, woman and children, animal and human sacrifice. I reject the concept of everlasting punishment from a hateful god who would burn people for eternity. I cannot accept the god of the bible who would allow a devil (with more power than god himself) to roam the earth for the last two thousand years, causing the horrendous destruction, while he sits back and takes his time to make his new earth. An earth he could have made 'perfect' from the beginning.

 

Because I do not believe that we were born in sin - I also have to reject the idea that I need a savior to perform a human blood sacrifice for me. I cannot eat the body or drink the blood of Christ any longer. It's sounds much too 'cultish' to me.

 

I appreciate so much that you will understand and respect my position on the 'faith based' religion. I will continue to respect what you choose to believe also. That's what friends do.Please, don't be concerned about my going to hell, because I also do not believe that ancient myth either.

 

If there is a hell and I land there - I will be among all my friends on this site - that will make me very happy!!

 

 

Excellent response, Margee! Too bad it's wasted on this insensitive clod. Look at how he completely ignored your sincere and very moving post and instead just dumped the standard preachments that we've all heard a million times without any attempt to respond to you as a person.

 

I think that's one of the saddest things about fundigelicals — total lack of any sense of empathy. They don't relate to people outside their cult as real human beings but just as "souls" to be won. Sad. And offensive.

[cheerphil]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact.

 

I would like to hear what sources you use to describe these events as historical fact. As far as I know it is only the Bible which is source of highly dubious origin with many historical mistakes in it. What else do you have?

[ShackledNoMore]

Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact.

 

You mean the raising from the dead that was only written about years later and only from christian sources, all during a period of history that was well documented, down to minutia much more mundane than a god rising from the dead?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

So it doesn't bother you to believe that a complex organism cannot exist without being made or created, but something dramatically more complex that can create the organism can just magically exist without itself being created?

[MagickMonkey]

OMFSM!!! HAHAHAHAhahahhaha, Isn't it cute when a believer comes to this site and talks to us like we are virtually completely ignorant of the religion we left? Or when they think the assertions of the bible are so self evident that we're "choosing" not to believe?

 

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact. There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

Ok, dude, if you're going to get anywhere with us, you can't assume we don't know our shit. We know the assertions of the bible. Many of us are much more educated about christian theology than you. Many of us left because of deep study of the bible.

 

If you think the assertions of the bible are self-evident, you are wrong. If you think it's established fact that Jesus rose from the dead, you are wrong. Not being able to find a tomb containing Jesus is meaningless. We cannot find the tombs of countless people known to have existed in the past. But it's not even all that clear that there was a historical Jesus.

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

 

So your argument is basically "We can't explain it, so god must have done it." That's not a very good arguement. That's like telling a kid that a TV works by magic. In regards to truths, we cannot answer, it's better just to simply accept ignorance than to accept a fairy tale as a substitute for the truth. However, in regard to cellular biology, I don't think we even have to accept ignorance. And think about it, dude. How does "god magically did it" really explain anything?

[MagickMonkey]

Another thing, Believer, please learn to use the quote feature. I'm honestly not trying to be an ass, but it really is easier for us to distinguish between quotes and your own words when you use the quote feature. If I remember correctly, I may have had this same problem when I first got to the site, so don't feel bad. (Well, not about that anyway.)

[MagickMonkey]

One other thing I'd like to add, Believer. The belief-is-a-choice thing is a dead horse that's been beaten over and over again. But the short of it is rational people cannot simply choose to believe. Can you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5? I can't, and neither can I choose to believe that there is a god. I could try really hard (I have before). I can pretend (I've done that, too). But I just can't do it. And if the assertions of the bible were true (Well, they can't all be 'cause of the contradictions), then pretending wouldn't be good enough anyway.

 

If any god existed, and that god cared about us knowing he existed, he'd provide unequivocal evidence (and no, the bible doesn't qualify as unequivocal evidence). This does not violate free will (which really doesn't exist anyway, at least not in the strictest sense), but would facilitate free will by allowing us to make a perfectly informed choice. Here's a suggestion. Dig more through the posts on this site, especially the deconversion testimonies. Learn why it is we no longer believe. Don't approach us as if we are ignorant about christianity. This site is called ex-christian.net for a reason. Understand that we're not simply rebellious. We're not choosing not to believe. We sincerely do not believe. We can't believe because the evidence we see tells us that christianity is false. If you see any flaws in our reasoning, then feel free to try to point those flaws out, but don't assume the assertions of the bible are obviously true. Do your homework, and then maybe try again.

 

Here's an excellent series of videos that explain why many of us no longer believe. It's Evid3nc3's story, but it tells a lot about ex-christians in general. http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3#p/c/A0C3C1D163BE880A

[SillyString]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside.

 

No, we are not ignoring the facts. I think you are. We embrace the facts and accept them.

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

Through millions of years of natural processes. Why is it that you people can accept that we die of natural causes, but do not accept that we are born through natural causes as well?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

That is because either you haven't looked hard enough, or you refuse to see things outside of your foolish beliefs.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection has not been verified outside of the bible. What's your point?

 

Really believer, you cannot tell us anything that we have not already been over before. A lot of us have been where you are now. Your arguments have all been visited time and time again. We do not accept the bible as truth, and we do not accept your god as truth. I'm pretty sure nothing you can say will change that, at least certainly not for me.

[skepticalme]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact. There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

Can you prove any of that happened? Just because your book says it, doesn't make it so.

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

It evolved over billions of years. Its funny that you mention intelligent design. See, designed things require lots of information. The instructions on how to build the space shuttle could probably fill an entire library, then you need instructions on how to build each of those components, then instructions on how to build each of the tools needed and each of their components, etc. Yet, my entire genome can fit onto a single DVD. Undesigned things require relatively little information. This is because many of the steps happen without instructions. Nucleotides can only bond together in certain ways due to their chemical properties. You can amplify gene sequences in a test tube with nothing but chemicals and heat.

 

Lets look at some other complex undesigned things, like the US economy. Nobody designs the market. There is no central body that dictated that Ford will make cars and that Microsoft will make software, yet the economy is very complex. It gets that complexity because very simple rules, like supply and demand, are repeated over and over again.

 

A snowflake is very complex, yet nobody designs snowflakes. Again, you have very simple rules based on the chemical properties and molecular structure of water, repeated over and over.

[Overcame Faith]

Dearest Heavenly Bible God, Father, Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit, The Creator of the Universe,

 

I come to you with the utmost sincerity of my heart, to talk with you. I have wanted to please you all my life. I have searched for you all my life. I have wanted to be one of your chosen. I never wanted to even worry on this earth about going to your hell. So I tried to be good. Yes, I screwed up quite a few times, made quite a few mistakes, but they told me it was because I was 'blood and 'flesh' and that you were like the potter, taking this ‘blob’ of sinful clay and turning me into a diamond. I have always asked for your forgiveness and to give me another chance to prove myself unto you. I always wanted to strengthen and prove myself for you – but you did not want to prove yourself for me, no matter how much I prayed.

First of all, God doesn't need to prove Himself to anyone. The fact that you asked Him to prove Himself to you proves that you didn't really believe at all, you just thought you did. Also, you never had to prove yourself to Him, all you had to do was receive Him by faith. You had religion and not relationship. If you had had relationship and not religion, you would have known that salvation is by grace through faith and the free gift of God, all you ever had to do was receive Him and the gift of salvation. But instead, it seems to me that you kept asking God to prove to you that He is who He says He is before you take that step of faith. But faith is not like that; it has to be blind (see 2 Corinthians 5:7 and John 9:40-41) Once you take the step of faith He will start to reveal all kinds of things to you. It is not "Seeing is believing," but "Believing is seeing" I can testify to this, for I have seen true miracles happen; but if I didn't have faith in Christ I might have passed them off as chicanery.

 

The concept that one can think they believe but not really believe is quite interesting and novel. If that is true then no one can be certain they believe because maybe they only think they believe. Maybe you only think you believe and, by this extraordinary concept you introduced, you can never know it because you may be fooled by your own thoughts. You should think about what you say and the logical implications before you say it.

 

Please forgive me for missing any signs that you did try to give me.

 

I have also, throughout the last 30 years, asked for more faith because I always felt as if I didn't have enough. I was honest with you about this. I told you everything. I confessed everything. I was told by many, that the 'mustard seed’ was good enough and that's all I had to have. But I wanted more than a seed of faith. I wanted big faith; enough to convince my mind of you, enough to stop the questions that I continued to drive you crazy with. Enough to move all the mountains in my life.

 

You didn't miss any signs because God didn't give you any except for one, just like He does with every unbeliever. You must have known about the historicity of His death on the Cross and HIs resurrection; why didn't you believe that sign? Please tell me when you answer.

 

Your bible disagrees with you that god provides no sign except for the resurrection. Do you not know these verses:

 

¹ At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed. ² But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. ³ So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

 

Acts 14:1-3

 

I guess Margee wasn't entitled to "believe" her bible that god would enable people to perform signs and wonders.

 

 

Please forgive me for this lack of faith that I had during all the past years.

 

I even joked with you, so many times that YOU were the one who gave me this inquisitive personality. You are supposed to be all powerful and therefore you could have changed me. I asked you to change me. Why didn't you? Why did you hesitate? Were you testing me all along like you did your servant, Job? I was even straightforward about that and told you that I would not pass that kind of test. Then I asked you why you would even want to test us? Why would you – a loving, kind father, even allow this devil you allowed to fall from grace, sit by our side and watch as we suffered through many horrific things in life? We are your children. You made us. You created us. You didn’t answer.

Maybe God considered you righteous at some point, because the scripture says that God tests the righteous. Yes, God tested you as Job. It is not His fault that you couldn't handle the test. In fact, by testing you at all He was complimenting you as righteous.

 

Another interesting concept. God complimented Margee's righteousness by so graciously testing it. But your god who knows everything has no reason to test anyone because he is able to judge the heart and know. Therefore, your "loving" god causes untold grief in people by testing their righteousness by bringing unnecessary misery into their lives when he knows the true answer anyway.

 

 

 

Please forgive me for my reservations with this issue.

 

Now I am learning that you might not be there at all. You have watched me at my computer. You have seen the research I’ve been doing in the past 5 years. You have seen and hear me questioning the bible since the night I was ‘saved’. I have asked you a hundred times in the last year to show yourself to me. I have screamed in agony. I have told you that are about to lose me. I have asked you if you care that I am falling away from the faith. And still you do nothing. You don’t even kill me. I was honest before you concerning this ‘doubting Thomas’ syndrome.

Were you really saved if you were questioning the Bible? See 1 Thessalonians 2:13. Were you falling away, or did you simply lack faith altogether?

 

So which is it? Did Margee have faith or not? You must know the answer since you seem to be able to get inside her heart and know her every thought. You already conceded that she was righteous and now you question her faith. Have you never read this verse: "This righteousness is given through faith in^[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe." Romans 3:22 So if, as you conceded, god complimented Margee's righteousness by testing her then she did have faith and she believed.

 

 

 

Can you really see what’s in my heart? If you can, and you are truly a loving entity - will you please forgive me?

 

You give me no clues whatsoever. The world is falling apart. We are killing each other. There are murders, rapes, poverty, and slavery. There are people fighting over whose land is whose and bombings everywhere. Do you see this? There is torture, starvation, cancer, drowning, dismemberment, and very painful diseases. You are supposed to be ‘all knowing.’ You could give us the cure for cancer and yet you remain silent. There is an epidemic of depression and suicide and thus far - you do nothing. How could a good and powerful God who loves you stand aside, unmoved to action, while such things happen?

This is a hard question to answer except to say that all of this suffering is the result of sin, and God calls people in the church to do their part to alleviate these sufferings. God heals people of cancer just by touching them. I wonder if people would give God the glory for such a thing if there was a cure. And it isn't true that God does nothing. He is working through His church to bring relief to many countries.

 

God's work through his church "...to bring relief to many countries" is a poor effort. If Jesus fed a multitude with five loaves of bread and two fish, then god obviously has the power to feed the world's hungry today. But I guess he has decided that since people aren't living up to his standards they deserve to die of starvation rather than for him to perform a miracle similar to that which Jesus supposedly performed and save even this child:

 

 

 

Please forgive me for being angry at you.

 

My biggest problem with you is you are supposed to be all powerful, you are supposed to be all good and yet all this evil exists. They have reassured me that when I get to heaven, you will explain all these mysteries to me. Why wait? Why not explain them to me now? Why not appear at the bottom of my bed in the late of night to have a talk? Why not appear in the sky (or wherever), even one community at a time and tell us that ‘’you will bring all things together for good’’ as you promised in your bible. So many unanswered prayers.

I'll give you a little talk on His behalf right now, for it is true that God uses people to speak the truth to others. All of the atrocities you see are the result of sin and the curse in Genesis 3. I don't know how you could have been a Christian for very long and not know this. Revelation declares that it will all pass away for the saints, but that unbelievers will experience hell and then the lake of fire forever. If you believed God when He said this I don't know how you could have turned your back on God. All the evil you see will be separatd from all that is good, but God is alowing it to be for the time being because He doesn't want to destroy the wheat with the chaff.

 

God has no concern for destroying the wheat (the righteous) with the chaff (the unrighteous). He is fully capable of bringing great death and destruction on a select group of people while protecting the others. Do you not know the story of the tenth plague in Exodus? In his great mercy, god killed all of Egypt's firstborn but was able to do so while leaving the Hebrews protected with the mere use of a marker of lamb's blood. So, god must refuse to destroy the evil for fear that he will also kill the righteous. I guess he forgot what he supposedly did in Egypt all those years ago.

 

 

Please forgive me for questioning your invisibility and indistinguishable lack of presence.

 

You are hiding from me so effectively, that the world looks just as I would expect it to look, and be, without a God running the show. It doesn’t have any of the characteristics I would be anticipating to find, if there was a caring, intervening, superseding God. All of my attempts to confirm your existence have come up empty handed. You are hiding so successfully. I have to admit that in order to believe like I did for years, I must do it by ignoring the contrary evidence. I must resolve to this concept called ‘faith’. You are hiding so stubbornly, I must conclude, among other things, that you do not want or care if I believe anymore. If you wanted me to believe, you think would show me evidence in a thousand obvious ways, because my heart has yearned for the proof.

 

 

Maybe you were telling me the truth when you said that you believe again, because I gave you the proof in my post. Yes, He is a God who hides Himself, it even says that in Isaiah. But He also reveals Himself to people who receive Him by faith (not by sight--2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 3:5). He has revealed Himself to me in powerful ways.

 

If god hides himself until people believe, then how can you explain what supposedly happened to Paul? Had Paul received "Him by faith" prior to his conversion experience? Obviously not:

 

¹ Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest ² and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. ³ As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. ⁴ He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

 

Acts 9:1-4

 

You must have something wrong.

 

 

Please forgive me for giving up the search.

 

One last quick discussion. Why didn’t you make us the way you wanted us to be in the first place? It could have been so simple – you are god! Why tempt us in the garden? Why make hell? Why scare people? Why would you do this to us? I have been taught that all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely each one followed God's will in his life. I really tried to do this. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life.

 

Why did you need to resort to human sacrifices to ‘satisfy’ the sin disease - which you created and tempted us with in the first place? Why be so cruel? Obviously, I will go to this hell you created for people who reject. It’s not that I want to reject you – I just don’t trust you anymore. Trust is reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, of a person or thing; confidence. It is the confident expectation of hope that someone really cares for your well-being. It gives you confidence in the certainty of the future. It is a loving person on whom

 

 

 

God started out by creating angels, but pride came into Lucifer's heart and he rebelled. So God worked out a plan to prove His goodness which Satan had called into question. Believe it or not, the things that happen on earth are a testimony of the goodness and grace of God. Good things do happen to people on earth, and His kindness leads them to repentance. And there was only one sacrifice, and the sacrifice was fully God. What is it to you that He was also 100% Man?

 

If goodness is to condemn the vast majority of god's highest creation, human beings, to eternal torment in hell then I'll take my chances with the likes of Adolph Hitler. At least Hitler's murderous ways stopped at the deaths of his victims. Your god's lustful appetite for vengeance has no end.

 

Please forgive me for not trusting you anymore.

 

I loved you for a long time and yet, you scare me with hell? And then you tell me that you are a loving God. Would you be affectionate and forgiving enough to take my hand and walk in hell with me?

 

I really wanted to believe in your existence, but you have gone to extraordinary lengths to make that difficult for me. The world looks just like there is no Bible God to me and I am heartbroken. It saddens me

 

 

Jesus went to hell for you. No one goes to hell without passing by the mercy seat. Salvation is a free gift. Somehow the last part of that got erased or I would respond to it.

 

If Jesus' purpose for dying on the cross and going to hell was to save people from hell, then he was a miserable failure because according to your religion only a few will be spared from it. I guess god's attitude is, "To hell with the rest of them."

 

 

One last prayer of forgiveness:

 

I pray that you will understand all my questions and forgive me for not believing the ‘Holy Bible’ that I was brought up to believe in. I am asking for your forgiveness for my doubting. I am asking for forgiveness for not really believing in you – but please – before I end this letter – would you always try to remember the heart that searched long and hard for you?

 

I will forgive you – if you will forgive me.

 

 

 

He will forgive you, if you appropriate His blood by faith. It is the only thing that brings forgiveness from God. And by the way, God doesn't need you to forgive Him, because He is perfect in every way, and cannot sin.

 

When one makes the rules, as your god supposedly does, then it is true that that person (or god) cannot break the rules because all he has to do is include a provision which exempts himself from what he expects of others. That's why your god could get away with ordering genocide of men, women and children and he has done nothing wrong when Adolph Hitler attempted the same thing against the Jews but he is considered evil (which, of course, he was).

[Margee]

Overcame Faith............. Sincerely, Margee

[Eugene39]

Hey, Believer. Look up towards the top of your screen where the web address is. It says www.EX Christian. Here's a link to the definition of the prefix ex-.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ex

 

If you still can't figure it out, look up one of your old girlfriends and ask her what "ex" means.

[BrotherJosh]

Damnit...the day my internet goes down is the day a Christ troll shows up.

 

Believer, before any of us enter into a discussion I think BAA's question to you is probably something you should delve into first. Mainly, what is your view of scripture? Is it to be taken literally in that it imparts great scientific understanding to us? You say ID is the only thing that makes sense to you, why would you say that? Do you think ID proponents have actually contributed or written any alternative, testable, theories to Evolution, abiogenesis and the multitude of scientific fields that are all interconnected with those two terms?

[mymistake]

Just remembered Hebrews 6, and am giving up. If any of you ever really had a relationship with Christ and then rejected Him later, you cannot come back. Your only hope is if you never knew Him in the first place. Your unbelief doesn't prove His inexistence or lack of love toward you. But if you want to prove that God isn't real, prove to me that Hebrews 6 is a lie by returning to Jesus.

 

When tested it turns out your beliefs are not fact at all. That is why you are giving up. So atheists and agnostics are not ignoring the facts. You were spreading misinformation and that reflects on you as does your presumption to speak for God, and your choice to criticize those who tried to make Christianity work. Your challenge comes off as insincere because you have used the No True Scotsman fallacy extensively. Any example that is provided to you can be dismissed with some combination of never really believed, never really left or never really returned. I myself took a break from Christianity when in mid childhood I developed the ability to reason. After hearing my talk about unbelief my family put a lot of pressure on me and sent me to Bible camp where the emotional leverage was really focused. After that I was hooked as a pure fundamentalist Christian for decades. The Book of Hebrews is full of lies because the men who wrote and edited it had no idea what they were talking about. But you will just write me off as the messenger of Satan.

 

Let's face the real fact: Christianity and the Bible do not deliver what was promised in this life. If Christianity and the Bible break their promises for this life then they cannot be reliable on supernatural matters in a possible afterlife. Are you willing to face that fact?

[oddbird1963]

This believer person and others like him remind me of what the character Dr. Silberman says about Kyle Reese in that great movie "The Terminator:"

 

This is great stuff. I could make a career out of this guy! You see how clever his part is? How it doesn't require a shred of proof? Most paranoid delusions are intricate, but this is brilliant!

 

Everything believer said is just plucked out of the air based on scripture he read or some doctrine/cliche he heard. If we don't believe what he said, it's not because of the inadequacy of his position, it's because we have defects of character. It's because his god doesn't want to convince us that what people like believer says is true, but wants to to have faith in something for which there is no backing.

 

Most delusions are intricate, but this is brilliant! Well, not really brilliant. Christianity's just had a couple of millenia to have plenty of goal posts to move.

 

I know some don't want us to consider Christianity a delusion. Maybe some forms of it aren't, but believer and those like him don't do anything but help one come to that conclusion.