The Cross And The Resurrection

[hereticzero]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact. There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaaha!

[Overcame Faith]

Just remembered Hebrews 6, and am giving up. If any of you ever really had a relationship with Christ and then rejected Him later, you cannot come back. Your only hope is if you never knew Him in the first place. Your unbelief doesn't prove His inexistence or lack of love toward you. But if you want to prove that God isn't real, prove to me that Hebrews 6 is a lie by returning to Jesus.

 

 

No, you are not giving up because of Hebrews 6 which states, in relevant part, the following:

 

⁴ It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, ⁵ who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age ⁶ and who have fallen^[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. ⁷ Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. ⁸ But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

Hebrews 6:4-8

 

The reason I know that the above-quoted verses are not your reason for "giving up" is because if you had read the testimonials on this forum, if you had read Margee's letter with a humane heart, then you would know that many people who come here have not deconverted and declared themselve ex-Christians. You would know that many are questioning the truth of the religion, who are devastated by what they are learning about the lies in the bible, and who are desperately trying to convince themselves that the religion is true. If you truly desired to share the "truth" and help people, then you would stay around and hope that your message would help these struggling people reconcile their doubts with this great truth you proclaim.

 

The real reason you are "giving up" is because you have been confronted by people who were true and sincere believers, who tithed their hard-earned money, who were leaders in their churches, who are well-educated, who know the bible probably better than you do, who have struggled mightily, who have suffered depression because of their findings, who have cried countless tears, who have begged god in their desperation to reveal himself to them and were answered with callous silence, and who live their lives in a "Christian" society and are outcasts because of the terrible truth they learned. And you have no convincing response to their arguments. You have nothing more than the same tired rhetoric that we have all heard a million times, the same rhetoric that caused us to question the religion in the first place.

 

You have given up because you don't want to be confronted by the real truth because that truth is harsh. For many of us, it did not come as a joyful epiphany. Rather, it came as a cold hard slap in the face, requiring us to re-think our entire lives and to have to rebuild our foundations where it was once composed of your bible as the cornerstone.

 

So I bid you farewell. Go back to your nice and comfortable bubble where you have convinced yourself that you have special insights that none of us ever had in the first place and leave us to continue our difficult task of rebuilding our lives and recovering from the lies we were told for so many years.

[Margee]

Just remembered Hebrews 6, and am giving up. If any of you ever really had a relationship with Christ and then rejected Him later, you cannot come back. Your only hope is if you never knew Him in the first place. Your unbelief doesn't prove His inexistence or lack of love toward you. But if you want to prove that God isn't real, prove to me that Hebrews 6 is a lie by returning to Jesus.

 

 

No, you are not giving up because of Hebrews 6 which states, in relevant part, the following:

 

⁴ It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, ⁵ who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age ⁶ and who have fallen^[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. ⁷ Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. ⁸ But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

Hebrews 6:4-8

 

The reason I know that the above-quoted verses are not your reason for "giving up" is because if you had read the testimonials on this forum, if you had read Margee's letter with a humane heart, then you would know that many people who come here have not deconverted and declared themselve ex-Christians. You would know that many are questioning the truth of the religion, who are devastated by what they are learning about the lies in the bible, and who are desperately trying to convince themselves that the religion is true. If you truly desired to share the "truth" and help people, then you would stay around and hope that your message would help these struggling people reconcile their doubts with this great truth you proclaim.

 

The real reason you are "giving up" is because you have been confronted by people who were true and sincere believers, who tithed their hard-earned money, who were leaders in their churches, who are well-educated, who know the bible probably better than you do, who have struggled mightily, who have suffered depression because of their findings, who have cried countless tears, who have begged god in their desperation to reveal himself to them and were answered with callous silence, and who live their lives in a "Christian" society and are outcasts because of the terrible truth they learned. And you have no convincing response to their arguments. You have nothing more than the same tired rhetoric that we have all heard a million times, the same rhetoric that caused us to question the religion in the first place.

 

You have given up because you don't want to be confronted by the real truth because that truth is harsh. For many of us, it did not come as a joyful epiphany. Rather, it came as a cold hard slap in the face, requiring us to re-think our entire lives and to have to rebuild our foundations where it was once composed of your bible as the cornerstone.

 

So I bid you farewell. Go back to your nice and comfortable bubble where you have convinced yourself that you have special insights that none of us ever had in the first place and leave us to continue our difficult task of rebuilding our lives and recovering from the lies we were told for so many years.

 

STANDING OVATION! *****

[Ouroboros]

Too bad he left. I still had some questions for him.

 

One thing that I can't resolve about God's foreknowledge and free will is this. I used to be Christian, now I'm not. God "takes" people "home" because it's his will, i.e. people die unexpectedly and Christians reason that "it was God's will for Bob to go." So in other words, if God knew that I would lose my faith, why didn't he kill me before it happened to ensure that I went to Heaven? If he kills me know, I'm supposedly will go to Hell. in other words, I don't understand how "it was God's will" works for God ending people's life when they're guaranteed to go to Hell, instead of letting them live longer and have a chance to be saved again, or kill them before they lose their faith. To me, it sounds like God is an asshole, plain and simple.

[buffettphan]

 

 

I wish I could give you a thousand +1's!!!! Please save that post and paste it as a reply to all the trolls who visit here (and maybe on the main blog too!). Because, as we know -- when it gets right down to it, they all say the same damn thing!

[Thought2Much]

No, you are not giving up because of Hebrews 6 which states, in relevant part, the following:

 

⁴ It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened...

 

The reason I know that the above-quoted verses are not your reason for "giving up" is because if you had read the testimonials on this forum, if you had read Margee's letter with a humane heart, then you would know that many people who come here have not deconverted and declared themselve ex-Christians. You would know that many are questioning the truth of the religion, who are devastated by what they are learning about the lies in the bible, and who are desperately trying to convince themselves that the religion is true. If you truly desired to share the "truth" and help people, then you would stay around and hope that your message would help these struggling people reconcile their doubts with this great truth you proclaim.

 

(More awesomeness follows)

 

My only gripe about your post is that I can only rate it up once, instead of hitting the little green arrow over and over again like a crack-addled monkey. That was beautiful from start to finish.

 

I think I should have you talk to my wife when I finally decide to let her know I've deconverted one day.

[MagickMonkey]

Too bad he left. I still had some questions for him.

 

One thing that I can't resolve about God's foreknowledge and free will is this. I used to be Christian, now I'm not. God "takes" people "home" because it's his will, i.e. people die unexpectedly and Christians reason that "it was God's will for Bob to go." So in other words, if God knew that I would lose my faith, why didn't he kill me before it happened to ensure that I went to Heaven? If he kills me know, I'm supposedly will go to Hell. in other words, I don't understand how "it was God's will" works for God ending people's life when they're guaranteed to go to Hell, instead of letting them live longer and have a chance to be saved again, or kill them before they lose their faith. To me, it sounds like God is an asshole, plain and simple.

 

I remember when I was about 11 or 12 or so STRONGLY HOPING god would kill me before I was convinced by any arguments that might lead me astray. It seems like I even prayed for this, though I can't remember for sure. Part of my fear was how convincing evolution was among other things. Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to die a second sooner than this might occur. And being a member of the CoC, suicide wasn't an option, 'cause I wouldn't have been able to ask god for forgiveness afterwords. That would have been a ticket straight to hell. Becoming a baptist later alleviated a lot of that fear, 'cause of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. But even then, I was like "What if they're wrong?".

[MagickMonkey]

Ditto what others said about only being able to +1 OC's post only once.

[Chikirin]

 

 

I remember when I was about 11 or 12 or so STRONGLY HOPING god would kill me before I was convinced by any arguments that might lead me astray.

 

me too except I was in my 30's

[centauri]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact.

It's not an established historical fact because the only contemporary evidence for it is found in cult writings that were designed to sell the product.

 

There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days.

According to whose version of history?

 

If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

Jesus also claimed that he had a God and it wasn't himself. (John 20:17)

[centauri]

First of all, God doesn't need to prove Himself to anyone. The fact that you asked Him to prove Himself to you proves that you didn't really believe at all, you just thought you did. Also, you never had to prove yourself to Him, all you had to do was receive Him by faith. You had religion and not relationship. If you had had relationship and not religion, you would have known that salvation is by grace through faith and the free gift of God,

Your formula for salvation contradicts the Old Testament and the New Testament.

In both cases works are required for salvation.

You're also employing the popular Christian lie that salvation is a free gift.

Salvation is a barter deal, where redemption is traded for worship.

Free gifts require nothing in return, which is certainly not the case with Christianity, unless you believe in predestination.

 

You didn't miss any signs because God didn't give you any except for one, just like He does with every unbeliever. You must have known about the historicity of His death on the Cross and HIs resurrection; why didn't you believe that sign?

It's not history for me, it's a cult story that has no outside confirmation.

But even if it did happen, it doesn't atone for sin.

There is no provision in the law of the Bible God for a vicarious human sin sacrifice.

The sacrifice of Jesus was more akin to that required by a volcano god, where a "virgin" is sacrificed to appease the deity.

 

...God calls people in the church to do their part to alleviate these sufferings. God heals people of cancer just by touching them. I wonder if people would give God the glory for such a thing if there was a cure. And it isn't true that God does nothing. He is working through His church to bring relief to many countries.

Asserting is easy, demonstrating is much harder.

How many nursing homes, mental wards, and children's hospitals have you emptied with the power you're supposed to have?

How many missing limbs have you regrown for people?

 

If you believed God when He said this I don't know how you could have turned your back on God. All the evil you see will be separatd from all that is good, but God is alowing it to be for the time being because He doesn't want to destroy the wheat with the chaff.

God didn't say anything, the words were put in his mouth by humans.

It's also interesting that you claim God is allowing it for the time being, which is thousands of years.

There has been no promised messianic era nor second coming.

However, there have been plenty of excuses for the failures.

 

God started out by creating angels, but pride came into Lucifer's heart and he rebelled. So God worked out a plan to prove His goodness which Satan had called into question.

 

Christian mythology at work.

There is nothing in the Old Testament that identifies Satan as ever disobeying God.

 

And there was only one sacrifice, and the sacrifice was fully God.

God, by definition cannot die at any time.

A sacrifice that's fully God can't die, therefore there was no real sacrifice.

 

Jesus went to hell for you. No one goes to hell without passing by the mercy seat. Salvation is a free gift.

If Jesus actually paid the penalty, then he would still be in hell serving the penalty.

Salvation is not a "free gift" unless you believe in predestination.

 

God doesn't need you to forgive Him, because He is perfect in every way, and cannot sin.

You haven't established any of this, you've simply repeated standard Christian talking points.

[centauri]

Jesus was God, so the payment was infinite.

The "Jesus was God" myth is contradicted by the Bible.

Jesus claimed to have a God and it wasn't himself.

He declared this even after he was resurrected and ascended.

You have conflicting claims going on.

 

In that 36 hours the infinite nature of God experienced the equivalent of an eternity in hell

36 hours is not an eternity except in the minds of excuse makers.

 

God raised Him from the dead because everything was paid in full:

More contradictions.

First you say Jesus was fully God, then you say that God raised him from the dead.

No part of an eternal being can die at any time.

God cannot die, so it must have been a human that died on the cross.

However, nothing was paid in full because a human cannot serve as a sin sacrifice according to the very law this God was supposed to have set forth.

Your theology is full of holes.

 

Jesus was a person who died for us. He was separated from His Father.

Please cite the law of God that allows humans to be used as vicarious sin sacrifices.

Jesus was living under that law and was bound by its requirements.

The death of a person doesn't accomplish anything as a sin sacrifice.

[Ouroboros]

I know for a fact that Jesus and Doctor Who are the same person.

[JadedAtheist]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact. There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

 

hahahaha...oh..wait, you're serious?!

[Blue elephant]

I wonder what happened to Believer? Maybe he had a church potluck dinner to go to!!! lol

[Margee]

Quote centauri:

 

It's not history for me, it's a cult story that has no outside confirmation.

 

But even if it did happen, it doesn't atone for sin.

 

There is no provision in the law of the Bible God for a vicarious human sin sacrifice.

 

The sacrifice of Jesus was more akin to that required by a volcano god, where a "virgin" is sacrificed to appease the deity.

 

How many nursing homes, mental wards, and children's hospitals have you emptied with the power you're supposed to have?

 

How many missing limbs have you regrown for people?

 

God didn't say anything, the words were put in his mouth by humans.

 

However, there have been plenty of excuses for the failures.

 

.....................................................................................................................................................

centauri, I KNOW all these sane wonderful points. Why would I allow a person with a tribal belief system to bother me.......

[Vigile]

Too bad he left. I still had some questions for him.

 

I just stopped in to see if our new believer left in a huff yet. Looks like this one has less stamina than most.

[Deva]

Too bad he left. I still had some questions for him.

 

I just stopped in to see if our new believer left in a huff yet. Looks like this one has less stamina than most.

 

 

Yes, another post and run troll. We have seen many.

[ShackledNoMore]

I love the irony of what he listed under Interests: "Evangelizing atheists and agnostics and anyone who doesn't believe." You'd think that a veteran like him could have kept going with us for longer than that! I guess it was only an interest last Wednesday evening.

[Spectrox]

I know for a fact that Jesus and Doctor Who are the same person.

Interestingly Tom Baker who played Doctor Who from 1974-81 (the best one in my opinion) likened himself to a cross between Harpo Marx, the Pied Piper of Hamelin and Jesus Christ. He played some of his scenes like they were from the New Testament. Much more convincingly in my opinion.

[Spectrox]

Too bad he left. I still had some questions for him.

 

I just stopped in to see if our new believer left in a huff yet. Looks like this one has less stamina than most.

Clearly a fair weather Christian.

[Antlerman]

Too bad he left. I still had some questions for him.

 

I just stopped in to see if our new believer left in a huff yet. Looks like this one has less stamina than most.

Clearly a fair weather Christian.

Self-centered, narcissistic child living with a gut-wrenching fear of God that brings him anything but peace is make take on him.

[Ouroboros]

I know for a fact that Jesus and Doctor Who are the same person.

Interestingly Tom Baker who played Doctor Who from 1974-81 (the best one in my opinion) likened himself to a cross between Harpo Marx, the Pied Piper of Hamelin and Jesus Christ. He played some of his scenes like they were from the New Testament. Much more convincingly in my opinion.

The evidence:

1 Tim 3:16. "God [or Who] was manifest in the flesh" (see link)

 

That verse says either "theta-sigma" (TS for theos, God), or "omega-sigma", or "(He) who" depending on manuscript (according to the source, and it's a copy error from bleed-through ink).

 

And then the small fact that the Greek letters theta-sigma have occurred several times in the TV show as Doctor Who's signature...

 

Theta SigmaEdit

 

Theta Sigma (ΘΣ), informally Thete, was a nickname used by the Doctor at the Time Lord Academy on Gallifrey. (DW: The Armageddon Factor, The Happiness Patrol, DWM: Flashback) It might also have been a codename used by some branch of Time Lord government to refer to the Doctor. (The Adventures of K9 series)

River Song used the written form "ΘΣ" in a message to the Eleventh Doctor on Planet One, though the Doctor called these and other apparently Greek numbers on the cliff face "co-ordinates". (DW: The Pandorica Opens)

In an alternative timeline in which Rassilon failed to finish the Eye of Harmony before his death, the Doctor never left Gallifrey and became a commentator rather than a renegade Time Lord. He was known as Commentator Theta Sigma. (BFG: Forever) "ΘΣ" was also a commonly-used abbreviation for "God" in Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. The capital letters Theta and Sigma together resemble the word "ΟΣ", (who), and some scribal variations in New Testament texts will have "ΟΣ" in a few passages while others have "ΘΣ" in the same passages.[1]

http://tardis.wikia....s_of_the_Doctor

 

Coincident? Don't think so.

 

And also consider that Jesus is supposedly the "healer", i.e. doctor. And Doctor Who is explained to be the first doctor in the Universe, after all other doctors have taken their name. There are some indications in the TV series that Doctor Who is the Creator of our universe as well. And he has been "resurrected" several times.

[centauri]

....................................................................................................................................................

centauri, I KNOW all these sane wonderful points. Why would I allow a person with a tribal belief system to bother me.......

Fear of the unknown and the possibility for "eternal punishment" are often powerful motivation to allow oneself to be influenced by popular beliefs.

Couple this tendency with family / peer pressures, parental traditions, along with the never ending sermonizing of evangelical peacocks, and it's not hard to see why so many people have trouble shaking the hold that this religion has on them.

It promises both punishment and reward and its mouthpieces speak with such certainty that it's hard to resist joining the happy hive.

Breaking that hold is hard work that's very lonely and demands a spiritual independence.

Lots of folks here have made that journey and the internet has made it easier to do now than it was 20 years ago.

[Guest Valk0010i]

There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days.

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

 

Which one, the catholic or protestant one, there is two you know!

 

Second about the cell, that is a argument from ignorance. And this video might be a tad enlightening

 

 

Francis Collins is a christian btw.