I Need Help In Dealing With Fundy-family And Their "miracles"

[buffettphan]

 

 

truth and family don't often mix

 

That's a quote to save! You are right. I also do a lot of leaving the room.

 

 

The question that immediately came to mind (that hasn't been directly addressed yet) was this: if your daughter was in the search party, wasn't she praying, too? Weren't 99 out of 100 searchers letting the Holy Spirit guide them? Maybe a personal evaluation will sink in more than statistics. People aren't prone to bouts of logic at the best of times, and this seems to be a very emotional experience for her.

 

I hope someday I get the opportunity to ask her that very question. Thanks for your support!

[buffettphan]

Just a quick update.

 

My daughter calls me frequently -- practically every day -- often more than once a day. She's been uncharacteristically quiet this week. The only contact has been a text message saying she needed to cancel our lunch plans this week.

 

As far as Robby goes, he is still in the hospital. Information has been released that he has a hole in his esophagus that the doctors believe was caused by him trying to eat something -- possibly sticks, bark, pinecones etc. while he was lost. I guess god couldn't turn those sharp objects into mush. Or have someone find him before he hurt himself. Or prevent him from getting lost in the first place. Or ... or ... or....

 

 

I am so grateful for this place to vent and calm down before I said something stupid in real life. Thank you all for your comments. Hopefully my daughter will have the sense to keep her mouth shut about this subject in the future. But if she doesn't, I'll be baaaaaaack.

[ConureDelSol]

HEY OP! You must live in the Richmond area! I'm actually in Glen Allen! Anyway, as soon as the news said they found him I immediately knew that SOMEONE was going to "Jesusify" this. "God" creates this boy with a severe social and mental defect. BECAUSE of this mental disorder, the boy runs off into the woods. "God" could have easily pointed the boy out within a few hours. Instead, it was six days. So instead, God PURPOSELY caused this boy to suffer malnutrition, dehydration, extreme psychological damage and hypothermia. The boy is still recovering in the ER as I type. If God did all this to try and make a point and be all "Here I am!" then God is a serious sadist.

 

It's great the kid was found, but this kind of thing only furthers my belief that the Christian God is NOT a just and loving God.

 

On another note to the OP: Feel free to PM me. I know how it is to be surrounded by the Jesus-robots. If we live close together enough maybe we can get together and vent!

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Buffett, sorry I missed your OP, but I have read it now.

 

You're definitely in a tough situation. I read loud and clear your concern about seeing your grandchildren since, as you correctly observe, your children have control of them and could theoretically deny you contact.

 

My first thoughts upon reading what you wrote was concerning your daughter who volunteered to search for the child and who would most likely say something like jesus put it into her heart to volunteer. If that comes up, you might consider saying something like, "Honey you give yourself too little credit. You're a good person and I'm proud of you for volunteering. You did it because that is who you are. I've seen it in you for your entire life." In other words, don't blatantly attack her notion that it was Jesus who put the good works into her, but subtely steer her away from it by putting the praise where it belongs - in her sense of humanity.

 

Now, concerning the "miracle." I must say that I am suspicious of that whole story about the man finding the child and, even according to your daughter's telling of it, so were the police. From what I have read, there were something over 6,000 volunteers searching the area using an intelligent search technique where the whole area was marked by grids and methodically searched. And yet they found nothing until this man was "lead by the holy spirit" right to him.

 

Now, let's look closer at your daughter's version of the events as told by this Hanover County Deputy:

 

When he finally got to the volunteer station he was told that he would have to wait and go thru training. The man said I don't have time. I need to go now.

 

Why did the man refuse to join in the organized search effort and what made him say he didn't have time? What did he know, and I don't mean from the "holy spirit" either, that others there did not know?

 

So he got back in his car and drove himself to the sight where Robby was lost. He found a house not too far from the park and rock quarry. He pulled into their driveway and began to pray again. He asked God to show him a sign if He wanted him to go and search on his own. He looked up from praying and saw a line of volunteers walk in front of him and into the woods.

 

So the "sign from god" was a "line of volunteers" walking past him. But he didn't join those volunteers. Why not? Your daughter's story implies that he had some special message from the "holy spirit." But I read it quite differently. He wanted to avoid others and be on his own when the found the boy. To me, that doesn't sound like god leading someone, but someone who doesn't want others to see him walk directly to the child.

 

So he got out and rang the doorbell to ask if it was okay to park there. They gave him permission. He went on to search. He hopped over a barbed wire fence and continued on a short way. He came to a gully or creek and looked down to find little Robby in a fetal position with his eyes closed. He leaned down and put his hand behind his neck. The little boy immediately opened his eyes and looked right at him. The man called 911 and told them where Robby was.

 

According to this account, the man knew right where to go. If the "holy spirit" had told him this and if he was on the up and up, why didn't he tell the volunteers he saw to come with him so the boy could receive immediate help? Those volunteers had all been trained on what to do should they find the boy and this man had not been so trained. For some as yet unknown reason, this man wanted to be all alone when he found the boy and it is patently obvious to me that he knew exactly where to go. And we all know that no "holy spirit" told him anything. He had some other way of knowing.

 

Now to news reports. According to the first paramedic on the scene, the man who found the child was aloof when the authorities arrived.

 

A paramedic who was first on the scene, who also did not want to be identified, said that the man removed his jacket and covered the autistic boy, who had been missing for six days in the woods.

 

"When I got there, the [volunteer's] jacket covered Robbie's entire body. He was curled up in a ball, his eyes were open, he was shivering and lethargic, and his clothes were wet," the paramedic said.

 

"But once Robbie received an IV (intravenous therapy) and moaned, I knew that was a good sign."

 

The paramedic said the Good Samaritan, an older man, watched rescue crews tend to the child from the top of a hill a few yards away. The paramedic said he did not know his name.

 

http://www.wtvr.com/...0,5691614.story

 

The man will not identify himself publicly, but he has given a statement as follows:

 

The man was not part of an official rescue team and does not want to be identified, but offered the following statement, "I was guided by the Holy Spirit to take any recognition for finding Robert would take credit away from God."

 

http://www.nbc12.com/story/15907079/roberts-rescue-rescuer-describes-finding-boy

 

Guided by the holy spirit not to take credit away from god, my foot. What it sounds like to me is a man who doesn't want public scrutiny And what sort of public scrutiny might he be concerned about? Well, questions like, "Just how did you know exactly where to go to find the boy?"

[Overcame Faith]

I don't want to keep hammering on this. But look at this video which shows where the boy was found. The child was not out in the open. Rather, he was in a small gulley where it would be extremely dificult to see him. And yet our "holy spirit" filled hero saw him there when all those volunteers didn't?

 

http://www.wtvr.com/...0,3817307.story

 

I have one of two possible conclusions:

 

1. This man's finding Robert Wood, Jr. was a fortutious event (pure luck, in other words); or

 

2. We haven't heard the whole story because something is extremely suspicious about the circumstances of his finding the child.

[ToonForever]

I don't want to keep hammering on this. But look at this video which shows where the boy was found. The child was not out in the open. Rather, he was in a small gulley where it would be extremely dificult to see him. And yet our "holy spirit" filled hero saw him there when all those volunteers didn't?

 

http://www.wtvr.com/...0,3817307.story

 

I have one of two possible conclusions:

 

1. This man's finding Robert Wood, Jr. was a fortutious event (pure luck, in other words); or

 

2. We haven't heard the whole story because something is extremely suspicious about the circumstances of his finding the child.

 

Absolutely - very much my thoughts. There's something funky about that guy! Excellent analysis in your previous post. They need to crawl all over that guy till they figure out how he did it.

[blackpudd1n]

My dad always says, "if it smells like fish, it's probably fish". Something's not quite right here.

 

I noticed a couple of people said to let the subject go, but you don't always get that option with determined christians. I should know. I was one of the pestering types. And I'm not exactly looking forward to the day I have the "why I no longer believe" conversation with my own sister, entrenched as she is in the church. She's with the Baptists. And we only just re-established a relationship 2 years ago, after 10 years of estrangement. I feel for you, Buffetphan. I fear losing my sister all over again. And I may, for a while. But I feel that if I am honest with her, then maybe when she has doubts she will come and talk to me, knowing that I won't be condemning her for those doubts. The soft, gentle approach worked for me, and I'm hoping the same approach will work for her. The soft, gentle approach may work for you, too, though it is a long one.

 

Best of luck, Buffetphan

[buffettphan]

HEY OP! You must live in the Richmond area!

 

Did you see on the news where the plane crash-landed in the lake the other day? That's where I am.

 

 

Anyway, as soon as the news said they found him I immediately knew that SOMEONE was going to "Jesusify" this.

 

 

So typical for around here.. and disgusting! Regarding the plane crash, I heard the pilot say he was lucky to be alive. That was refreshing. Then the next morning, the people who heard the plane crash into the lake said their rescue efforts were god's doing. Not only that, but the newspaper article was practically a personal advertisement for the man's "christian, bible-based financial planning" business. Made me want to puke.

 

 

 

It's great the kid was found, but this kind of thing only furthers my belief that the Christian God is NOT a just and loving God.

 

I totally agree.

[buffettphan]

Hi, Buffett, sorry I missed your OP, but I have read it now.

 

Thanks for responding. You always have such a calm, clear take on situations and give some awesome advice!

 

I read loud and clear your concern about seeing your grandchildren since, as you correctly observe, your children have control of them and could theoretically deny you contact.

 

Yes, in this situation, that is my biggest personal concern. My children are adults and what they believe is up to them. But my grandchildren.... I hope to somehow in some way influence them enough to question their indoctrination. I can't do that if I'm not around them. Plus I love 'em to pieces and wouldn't want to not be in their lives.

 

...consider saying something like, "Honey you give yourself too little credit. You're a good person and I'm proud of you for volunteering. You did it because that is who you are. I've seen it in you for your entire life." In other words, don't blatantly attack her notion that it was Jesus who put the good works into her, but subtely steer her away from it by putting the praise where it belongs - in her sense of humanity.

 

True...and I can point to specific incidents. I didn't think about using this approach.

 

 

Now, concerning the "miracle." I must say that I am suspicious of that whole story about the man finding the child

...

 

I have one of two possible conclusions:

 

1. This man's finding Robert Wood, Jr. was a fortutious event (pure luck, in other words); or

 

2. We haven't heard the whole story because something is extremely suspicious about the circumstances of his finding the child.

 

 

Thanks for the reassurance that I'm not the insane one around here! The discrepancies in the story are alarming to me. How the law enforcement officials (no matter how "country bumpkin" they are!) can dismiss those discrepancies and chalk the whole thing up to the 'holy spirit' is scary -- especially given the other recent stories in the news about attempted abductions nearby (which of course could be completely unrelated). Nevertheless, we KNOW the holy spirit had nothing to do with the rescue.

 

I'm with you. The discovery was either just a lucky coincidence or something fishy is going on.

[buffettphan]

There's something funky about that guy! Excellent analysis in your previous post. They need to crawl all over that guy till they figure out how he did it.

 

ABSOLUTELY!!! Cuz we all sure know it wasn't the holy spook giving instructions!

[buffettphan]

 

 

Best of luck, Buffetphan

 

Thank you, blackpudd1n. I've kinda given up most hope that ANY approach will work with my daughter (currently with the baptists), my spouse (currently with some non-denomination denomination), or my sister (church of christ). But I'm still hopeful for my grandchildren. I hope things work out with your sister. Religion really does ruin everything!

[blackpudd1n]

 

 

Best of luck, Buffetphan

 

Thank you, blackpudd1n. I've kinda given up most hope that ANY approach will work with my daughter (currently with the baptists), my spouse (currently with some non-denomination denomination), or my sister (church of christ). But I'm still hopeful for my grandchildren. I hope things work out with your sister. Religion really does ruin everything!

 

 

My grandfather is an Elder in the Church of Christ, and we were raised the same, but I went pentecostal and my sister went baptist. The irony is that it was my grandfather who always encouraged me to think for myself, to never hold really anything as absolute truth, and to reconsider your stance should new information come to light. I often marvel at my Grandfather's mind- he turns 91 next month, and he is still so sharp. I often wonder how such a free-thinker could be involved in religion for so much of his life, and believe so sincerely. As far as my Grandfather goes, I'm not going to go out of my way to tell him of my deconversion. I won't lie, should it come up, but I just don't see the need to distress him at this late stage in his life. He may be religious, but he's not a crackpot, and I just feel it would be totally unnecessary.

 

My sister, on the other hand, well, her religious views are a bit off-centre, and I feel that her life would definitely benefit if she could be without it. My plan of attack is to make her feel as though I am not attacking her beliefs, and back myself up with the bible. I didn't deconvert overnight, so why would she? I don't think you even need to win the argument- just plant a seed of doubt. Plant enough seeds, one of them will eventually flourish. And maybe as one flourishes, the others will, too.

 

I'd also keep in mind that your daughter is being so vocal and persistent. It could be a good sign, actually. I know that I the more I started to doubt, the more insistent I became, and the more I tried to convince others of God's existence, when really I was just desperately trying to convince myself that God was real. I was trying to drown out my own thoughts. One of the fears I had to overcome was my fear of what others would think, should they catch wind of what was going on inside. I had invested so much, and I was known by so many for my religious beliefs- I know it sounds stupid, but I was afraid of what others would think of me. My (adoptive) dad, a pagan, planted many seeds with me, using the gentle approach. We would talk for hours about religion, and I'd bring up some religious idea, and he'd be like, "maybe. I hadn't really thought of that. I guess I just have no way of really knowing". It's pretty hard to butt heads with someone who refuses to butt heads! I understand how hard it is, to be patient, but these people are not allowed to think for themselves. I remember how scary it was for me to consider each new concept and challenge. I felt as though I was going to be struck down just for thinking about anything that went even remotely against accepted dogma.

 

I'd be interested to hear how things go for you

[notazombie]

I would just level with her and say, "If you don't want me to email you every story where terrible things happen and god was nowhere to be found, I suggest you stop emailing me things like this."

 

I had some people of facebook put some Jebus comments on my wall post once and I only had to tell them that if they don't post atheist stuff on their walls, they better not put god stuff on mine. Haven't had a problem since.

[buffettphan]

Quick update: I've seen my daughter twice since her email. She has not mentioned a thing. So I guess it's back to the status quo.

 

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement -- and providing a safe place for me to vent!

[blackpudd1n]

Quick update: I've seen my daughter twice since her email. She has not mentioned a thing. So I guess it's back to the status quo.

 

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement -- and providing a safe place for me to vent!

 

Crisis averted

[SWIM]

Same ole song an dance. Survive a plane crash, maimed for life, and you are somehow "blessed" for being spared.... Uhm no, you were punked by fate to be in the plane crash to start with..

[Ariana]

My family has been using the survival of my accident to sway me a little, I'll admit I was so extremely lucky that it seems almost impossible but that doesn't mean I was 'protected' by anything. I sometimes worry 'What if God is real, giving me a second chance to believe, and will be royally pissed off that I snubbed him once again.' though.

[blackpudd1n]

My family has been using the survival of my accident to sway me a little, I'll admit I was so extremely lucky that it seems almost impossible but that doesn't mean I was 'protected' by anything. I sometimes worry 'What if God is real, giving me a second chance to believe, and will be royally pissed off that I snubbed him once again.' though.

 

...or you could think to yourself, if god was really real, then why did he make me go through an accident? Why would he use an accident to get my attention? Why couldn't he just come and have a cuppa with me? Did you lose your car, have to fork out for insurance, etc.? If so, then why would god have done that to you?

 

Here's a story for you: My dad was motorbike riding with some mates, and one of them mis-judged the corner and plowed into a campervan coming the other way. Just after the accident, a nurse was on the way to work for a shift she didn't normally work. She helped to stabilise him while they waited for the ambulance, which would have come by road, except the rescue helicopter was near-by, refuelling (a beacon had gone off in a boat, and the boat was found in it's shed, untouched). My dad's mate was flown to the nearest decent hospital (a 1 hour drive away), stabilised, and then airlifted to the nearest major hospital (another 4 hour drive away). He survived the accident, but lost his leg.

 

Now, christians, hearing this story, would say god was looking out for my dad's mate. My dad's mate? He's lost his leg! As far as he's concerned, he's not impressed by a god who would save his life but make him lose his leg, put him out of work, through so many medical procedures, and feeling like an invalid. The thing is, if you go out looking for miracles, or for signs that someone's looking out you, you'll find them. I think the term for this is synchronicity.

 

Anyway, welcome to Ex-C It's lovely to have you here

[SilentLoner]

I just have to post this when the subject of miracles + accidents comes up