John 3:16

[Spectrox]

I have been askd why I frequent this site since I believe that if you are once truly saved and then depart from the faith you can never return to repentance.

 

Well, I believe that there may be one or two people who merely thought that they believed and when they departed from what they thought was faith, they did not depart from actual faith in Jesus Christ.

 

But all insults that will be thrown at me aside (such as, he had no stamina, and that is why he stopped posting), I grow tired of this game.

 

You want proof that God is real, but He says that the way to salvation is to believe in Him apart from such proof, although proof is given that many of you have rejected with rationalities.

 

He says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

 

With that testimony, I leave you. Some of you wanted to kick me off the boards anyway.

 

The testimony is this: if you will believe the testimony of scripture, God will give you everlasting life. If you choose not to believe, you will perish.

 

You may want to rail against God for me having said this. I don't really care, He will be your judge.

 

If any of you really wants to believe, you can find the evidence if you look for it hard enough. "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and ye will find; knock, and it wil be opened to you. For whoever asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Matthew 7:7

 

"And you shall seek me, and you shall find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13.

 

Wow. I've never heard those quotes before. You've convinced me of the truth.

 

You're either a troll or off your trolley.

 

Not a lot of people know this but I've got one of the original New Testaments from the 4th century CE. Page 1 is usually not included in later copies but I translated it from the Greek. It reads (and I quote):

"The characters portrayed in this book are fictional and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

If I gave your god belief in him without proof, I'd have to give it to every potential god without proof.

 

Right on Michael........................... I am beginning to this this clearly.........

 

I think allah might be the right god. Allah 'covers ' everybody! Muslims believe that there is no other God besides Allah and that he is the God of the universe. They claim that not only is he their God, but that he is the God of the Jews, the Christians and everyone else. Listen to this scripture!!

 

"He is Allah beside Whom there is none other worthy of worship, The King, The Holy, The Peace, The Watcher, The All Mighty, The Compeller, The Supreme. Glory be to Allah! He is above all that they try to associate with Him as partners." [Holy Quran 59:23]

 

Believer, we have been serving the wrong god all these years!!!

 

 

Allah is the same God of Christianity, and Islam wrote about Jesus, said he was a great prophet. They believed he would be the one to come back and defeat Satan. Muhammad was the 'last' prophet from God. So, it not that you believed in the wrong God all these years, maybe the people surrounding you affected your decisions to seek the truth.

 

Truth is, they all run hand in hand.

[Abiyoyo]

That's why you couldn't come up with evidence. It's a fail for you too. You just can't admit it. You are trapped in the circuar maze of religious indoctrination with millions of escape hatches to keep from dealing with reality.

 

If your religion weren't so harmful to people, I'd feel sorry for you.

 

Would it make a difference to you if there was evidence....? (I assume the answer is no)

[mymistake]

That's why you couldn't come up with evidence. It's a fail for you too. You just can't admit it. You are trapped in the circuar maze of religious indoctrination with millions of escape hatches to keep from dealing with reality.

 

If your religion weren't so harmful to people, I'd feel sorry for you.

 

Would it make a difference to you if there was evidence....? (I assume the answer is no)

 

I don't know about oddbird but for me it would make a huge difference if there was a good amount of objective evidence. Now if would definitely have to be objective so that it is the same to all observers. I'm not talking about a warm feeling or repressing doubt like nearly all other religions can generate. I'm also not talking about trace amounts like the poor quality photos of the Lock Ness Monster. Don't you find it troubling that the Lock Ness Monster has more objective evidence than Bible God? I do. These atheists who do not believe in God and the agnostics who do not know God - you don't see them expressing the same doubts about the existence of Obama or any other modern documented person.

[Abiyoyo]

Don't you find it troubling that the Lock Ness Monster has more objective evidence than Bible God? I do. These atheists who do not believe in God and the agnostics who do not know God - you don't see them expressing the same doubts about the existence of Obama or any other modern documented person.

 

Like I said, even if there were substantial evidence to prove God/Jesus exists, I don't think it would make much difference; the reason being is because no matter what evidence is provided, evidence is only measured in part because it battles with what we 'want' to believe.

 

If someone told you there was a ghost that was on a video, Would you just watch the video and then believe in Ghosts? I say probably not. But, you would want to experience this phenomenon and see it with your own eyes. Granted, that is not irrational, but in reality, that ghost is something that we haven't fully been able to understand in all our technologies, science, data, videos, etc. So, to pinpoint belief in a ghost appearance to determine it is real is probably not the most effective strategy.

 

So, then, all that is left is the debate, criticism, truths and lies. It's up to us to determine on an individual level whether ghosts are real or fake. But, I say ghosts are most likely real because of all the findings surrounding the phenomenon.

 

Why can't God/Jesus be the same?

[Ouroboros]

Would it make a difference to you if there was evidence....? (I assume the answer is no)

To me it would. But I can only assume that you don't believe me. Of course, not everything can be considered evidence. I do have a high standard for what evidence would be required to convince me, but still, there is a point that God could cross with amazing miracles to make me a believer. If my son is healed and can walk again, you bet there will be thousands of people converting.

[Ouroboros]

Don't you find it troubling that the Lock Ness Monster has more objective evidence than Bible God? I do. These atheists who do not believe in God and the agnostics who do not know God - you don't see them expressing the same doubts about the existence of Obama or any other modern documented person.

 

Like I said, even if there were substantial evidence to prove God/Jesus exists, I don't think it would make much difference; the reason being is because no matter what evidence is provided, evidence is only measured in part because it battles with what we 'want' to believe.

 

If someone told you there was a ghost that was on a video, Would you just watch the video and then believe in Ghosts? I say probably not. But, you would want to experience this phenomenon and see it with your own eyes. Granted, that is not irrational, but in reality, that ghost is something that we haven't fully been able to understand in all our technologies, science, data, videos, etc. So, to pinpoint belief in a ghost appearance to determine it is real is probably not the most effective strategy.

 

So, then, all that is left is the debate, criticism, truths and lies. It's up to us to determine on an individual level whether ghosts are real or fake. But, I say ghosts are most likely real because of all the findings surrounding the phenomenon.

 

Why can't God/Jesus be the same?

You mean God/Jesus are on the same level as hoaxes, tricks, slight of hand, and special effects on TV? God can't do better than that? Not much of a God then...

[Abiyoyo]

Would it make a difference to you if there was evidence....? (I assume the answer is no)

To me it would. But I can only assume that you don't believe me. Of course, not everything can be considered evidence. I do have a high standard for what evidence would be required to convince me, but still, there is a point that God could cross with amazing miracles to make me a believer. If my son is healed and can walk again, you bet there will be thousands of people converting.

 

Whats up Han's, long time, ....

 

So, for you, it would take an amazing miracle to 'make you a believer'. But, then, what kind of 'believer'. You said thousands of people would get converted if that happened, which would imply that because it hasn't happened those thousands are doomed? I personally think with the history of our outings that this miracle would be the thing that would make you a 'practicing' Christian again, not necessarily a believer. I think everyone believes on some kind of level, some are active, some are not.

[Abiyoyo]

You mean God/Jesus are on the same level as hoaxes, tricks, slight of hand, and special effects on TV? God can't do better than that? Not much of a God then...

 

So, you feel that if God is real, then He should make Himself known in a tangible way so that people can experience him?

[Legion]

"For Metaphor so loved the world that metaphor expressed itself, that whosoever believeth in metaphor would be bound up with the metaphor." - Legion 3:16

[Mike D]

whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"Whosoever believeth in him, and believes every word in the Bible no matter how absurd, and goes to church multiple times a week, and tithes no matter how poor, and doesn't drink, and isn't gay, and rejects logic and reason, and doesn't question church authority, and submits to a whole bunch of other questionable religious dogma, will still perish anyway, but it's a nice fairy tale nonetheless"

 

John forgot to mention a few things

[Abiyoyo]

"For Metaphor so loved the world that metaphor expressed itself, that whosoever believeth in metaphor would be bound up with the metaphor." - Legion 3:16

 

Loving the metaphor isn't that bad of a thing, unless of course, one person tells you that in order to love the metaphor, you have to do this, or that, or act this way, look this way, talk this way. Then, the metaphor becomes the golden cow....

[Legion]

"For Metaphor so loved the world that metaphor expressed itself, that whosoever believeth in metaphor would be bound up with the metaphor." - Legion 3:16

 

Loving the metaphor isn't that bad of a thing, unless of course, one person tells you that in order to love the metaphor, you have to do this, or that, or act this way, look this way, talk this way. Then, the metaphor becomes the golden cow....

A good metaphor is like a crystal ball. A bad metaphor is a disaster.

[agnosticator]

Loving the metaphor isn't that bad of a thing, unless of course, one person tells you that in order to love the metaphor, you have to do this, or that, or act this way, look this way, talk this way. Then, the metaphor becomes the golden cow....

 

Few are chosen, and to hell with the rest.

[Ouroboros]

Would it make a difference to you if there was evidence....? (I assume the answer is no)

To me it would. But I can only assume that you don't believe me. Of course, not everything can be considered evidence. I do have a high standard for what evidence would be required to convince me, but still, there is a point that God could cross with amazing miracles to make me a believer. If my son is healed and can walk again, you bet there will be thousands of people converting.

 

Whats up Han's, long time, ....

 

So, for you, it would take an amazing miracle to 'make you a believer'. But, then, what kind of 'believer'.

A believer in a God that actually would exist and actually would show himself and evidence of his existence. It would be a real God, not an imaginary one.

 

You said thousands of people would get converted if that happened, which would imply that because it hasn't happened those thousands are doomed?

Aren't they?

 

Btw, didn't Christianity supposedly start with a big miracle? Didn't the Pentecost bring in a whole bunch of people because of a miracle? Didn't Jesus say that miracles would follow those who believe? Why would it be different now? Why aren't people allowed to be doubting Thomas and ask for physical evidence, and also receive it?

 

I personally think with the history of our outings that this miracle would be the thing that would make you a 'practicing' Christian again, not necessarily a believer.

So God is not doing it because of what you believe could go wrong. But you have no trust in that it could go right. In other words, it's your doubt that's holding back the miracle, not my belief that such a miracle would do the right thing.

 

I think everyone believes on some kind of level, some are active, some are not.

Eh? I don't understand.

 

I think that people have come up with thousands of excuses to why God does not show evidence or do miracles. But I think the simple truth is that God doesn't exist, or God just doesn't interact that way. Believing in a God that can do miracles but have a million excuses for why he never does, is just silly.

[Ouroboros]

You mean God/Jesus are on the same level as hoaxes, tricks, slight of hand, and special effects on TV? God can't do better than that? Not much of a God then...

 

So, you feel that if God is real, then He should make Himself known in a tangible way so that people can experience him?

Yes.

 

Supposedly he did in the past and in the uneducated jungles where people burn kids for accusations over witchcraft, but not amongst educated people with doubt.

 

The only tangible experience I have today is that I'm part with the Universe and Reality. The Reality we live in, that's God. The World we live in, that's God. Your God is silent.

[mymistake]

Don't you find it troubling that the Lock Ness Monster has more objective evidence than Bible God? I do. These atheists who do not believe in God and the agnostics who do not know God - you don't see them expressing the same doubts about the existence of Obama or any other modern documented person.

 

Like I said, even if there were substantial evidence to prove God/Jesus exists, I don't think it would make much difference; the reason being is because no matter what evidence is provided, evidence is only measured in part because it battles with what we 'want' to believe.

 

This is not true. For a long time the Giant Squid was on the same level as Bigfoot and the Lock Ness Monster. And it got the same level of respect because there was no good evidence for it. Once evidence turned up the world accepted them as being real; just as real as anything else documented. It's not about what we want to believe. If God showed up with clear evidence that would end it for many agnostics and atheists. Of course that would also end your faith because you can't have faith in something you know is true.

 

If someone told you there was a ghost that was on a video, Would you just watch the video and then believe in Ghosts?

 

I already covered this one when I mentioned the quality of evidence. Bigfoot has a few bad videos out there. It doesn't reach the level of proof.

 

I say probably not. But, you would want to experience this phenomenon and see it with your own eyes. Granted, that is not irrational, but in reality, that ghost is something that we haven't fully been able to understand in all our technologies, science, data, videos, etc.

 

Psychology has a great explanation.

 

So, to pinpoint belief in a ghost appearance to determine it is real is probably not the most effective strategy.

 

So, then, all that is left is the debate, criticism, truths and lies.

 

That is because your God won't show up - contrary to all the stories about God showing up long ago.

 

It's up to us to determine on an individual level whether ghosts are real or fake. But, I say ghosts are most likely real because of all the findings surrounding the phenomenon.

 

Why can't God/Jesus be the same?

 

You do have every right to believe whatever you like about Jesus. However your belief doesn't make it real.

[Margee]

You mean God/Jesus are on the same level as hoaxes, tricks, slight of hand, and special effects on TV? God can't do better than that? Not much of a God then...

 

So, you feel that if God is real, then He should make Himself known in a tangible way so that people can experience him?

 

I guess it's a bit too much to ask........................

[bdp]

 

If someone told you there was a ghost that was on a video, Would you just watch the video and then believe in Ghosts?

 

There's no such thing as ghosts.

[bdp]

I think everyone believes on some kind of level

 

Well then you're wrong.

[bdp]

Didn't the Pentecost bring in a whole bunch of people because of a miracle?

 

Ah, Penetecost - even from the beginning people had to trust someone else's subjective experience in order to 'believe,' no direct miracle or revelation allowed.

[Abiyoyo]

Loving the metaphor isn't that bad of a thing, unless of course, one person tells you that in order to love the metaphor, you have to do this, or that, or act this way, look this way, talk this way. Then, the metaphor becomes the golden cow....

 

Few are chosen, and to hell with the rest.

 

Okay, the OP was John 3:16, which is the core of the whole thing, right? Believe and live with God.

 

 

Whats up Han's, long time, ....

 

So, for you, it would take an amazing miracle to 'make you a believer'. But, then, what kind of 'believer'.

A believer in a God that actually would exist and actually would show himself and evidence of his existence. It would be a real God, not an imaginary one.

 

That's my point, it's not real to you specifically because it isn't tangible in your life. That's not evidence, that's opinion.

 

 

 

You said thousands of people would get converted if that happened, which would imply that because it hasn't happened those thousands are doomed?

Aren't they?

 

Btw, didn't Christianity supposedly start with a big miracle? Didn't the Pentecost bring in a whole bunch of people because of a miracle? Didn't Jesus say that miracles would follow those who believe? Why would it be different now? Why aren't people allowed to be doubting Thomas and ask for physical evidence, and also receive it?

 

No, Christianity started before Christ, with handful of people believing God was sending the Messiah.

 

 

I personally think with the history of our outings that this miracle would be the thing that would make you a 'practicing' Christian again, not necessarily a believer.

So God is not doing it because of what you believe could go wrong. But you have no trust in that it could go right. In other words, it's your doubt that's holding back the miracle, not my belief that such a miracle would do the right thing.

 

No, no doubt he is capable of such a feat over here.

 

 

I think everyone believes on some kind of level, some are active, some are not.

Eh? I don't understand.

 

I think that people have come up with thousands of excuses to why God does not show evidence or do miracles. But I think the simple truth is that God doesn't exist, or God just doesn't interact that way. Believing in a God that can do miracles but have a million excuses for why he never does, is just silly.

 

 

Why is believing in a creator silly when we only have limited sight. It is proven over history that we have limits and dont see past those limits until someone, something enables us to see an extended view. I'm sure 2000 years ago, normal everyday people would not have been able to contemplate space travel. How can you scientifically place something as hands down non-existent, knowing the human mind and perception is limited?

[Abiyoyo]

You mean God/Jesus are on the same level as hoaxes, tricks, slight of hand, and special effects on TV? God can't do better than that? Not much of a God then...

 

So, you feel that if God is real, then He should make Himself known in a tangible way so that people can experience him?

 

I guess it's a bit too much to ask........................

 

It's not that it's much to ask, it's just not relevant in evidence of existence. For centuries, we knew that there was something that caused sickness in people that must have been physically on objects, yet it was only at a certain time that people advanced enough to be able to produce technology to see bacteria. So, bacteria always existed, yet we never saw it for centuries.

[Ouroboros]

 

Whats up Han's, long time, ....

 

So, for you, it would take an amazing miracle to 'make you a believer'. But, then, what kind of 'believer'.

A believer in a God that actually would exist and actually would show himself and evidence of his existence. It would be a real God, not an imaginary one.

 

That's my point, it's not real to you specifically because it isn't tangible in your life. That's not evidence, that's opinion.

Sorry. I don't understand your point.

 

Supposedly, the 12 apostles started their belief because of miracles Jesus did, and finally the miracle of resurrection.

 

Paul was, presumably, converted because of a miracle vision, and his service continued because of miracles that followed.

 

The early church was full of people who converted because of miracles they saw, or at least we're supposed to believe that.

 

Why can't I have a tangible miracle? Why would a miracle corrupt me, but not corrupt Paul?

 

I think it follows what Paul (or whoever) said that God chooses some for destruction. Perhaps all of us here on this website are picked by God to be vessels of destruction. Then it's not your choice or power that can convert anyone of us. You're fighting against God's will.

 

No, Christianity started before Christ, with handful of people believing God was sending the Messiah.

Ah. So the miracles started because the disciples believe Jesus was about to come and they believed the miracles into existence? They saw what they wanted to see?

 

Well, I want to see my son healed. For 15 years now. I'll most likely go to my grave still hoping. But hoping for a miracle, or believing that a miracle would change me, is not enough. You have to stop doubting God. You're the one plugging the hole by denying God to do the miracle.

 

No, no doubt he is capable of such a feat over here.

Then stop doubting and stop fighting against God's will.

 

Why is believing in a creator silly when we only have limited sight.

I don't see Santa Claus either... yet I don't believe Santa is real.

 

It is proven over history that we have limits and dont see past those limits until someone, something enables us to see an extended view. I'm sure 2000 years ago, normal everyday people would not have been able to contemplate space travel. How can you scientifically place something as hands down non-existent, knowing the human mind and perception is limited?

So it took 2,000 years to lose that sight, and we're supposed to assume they had it and retake that "sight" if imagination because we're to assume they had something that we don't?.... gah! It's silly. Beyond silly actually.

[agnosticator]

Okay, the OP was John 3:16, which is the core of the whole thing, right? Believe and live with God.

 

That's just plain illogical and cherrypicking. No hell, no heaven...no sin, no sinner...no savior, no salvation...

 

Why is believing in a creator silly when we only have limited sight. It is proven over history that we have limits and dont see past those limits until someone, something enables us to see an extended view. I'm sure 2000 years ago, normal everyday people would not have been able to contemplate space travel. How can you scientifically place something as hands down non-existent, knowing the human mind and perception is limited?

 

Why is believing in Santa silly when we only have limited sight.