New Here And Very Confused/worried

[centauri]

Oh, I know it is ridiculous. However, the way I was taught, parents are responsible for teaching their children about God. If I tell my kids that God doesn't exist and I am wrong, my kids might possibly believe me and stopped believing in Jesus and end up in hell all because they trusted me. I know this sounds crazy, but this is the belief system I am coming from. This belief in eternal damnation has kept me in line for 20 years

Acquired beliefs, the baggage we get from others, can really keep an iron grip on you.

This seems to be especially true regarding religion.

The fear of "hell", the promise of reward for conforming to a popular belief, and the possibility of rejection by society, are all powerful tools for keeping people in line.

I think questioning acquired beliefs is required in order to be able to live with yourself.

I don't think it means you have to toss out the idea of a creator, it simply means that the Christian version of "God" is just that...a version.

You're not required to believe in it any more than you're required to wear shoes that don't fit.

That's the problem with Christianity, it's their way or no way at all.

 

Of course, it is what got me thinking as well. I just couldn't understand how people who claimed to be Christians but were really horribly cruel people got to go to Heaven, but a good and kind person who just didn't happen to believe in Jesus was sent to hell. Brainwashing is such a good term for what goes on. Fundamental Christianity makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever....

It has more holes than a swiss cheese.

The more objectively I looked at it, the more it started to fall apart until it finally crashed with a huge thud.

Once that happened, there was no way I could pretend any longer.

Ironically, it was studying the Bible that initiated the collapse.

It was an amazing journey in many ways.

I think you'll find lots of things to explore here.

[midniterider]

Hi, my name is Tonya and I am a married, 40 year old mother of 8. I have been raised in Fundamental Christianity since I was 12, and had attended a fundamental church even before my parents became "saved" when I was 12. I was quite the rebellious teenager, but at the age of 19 decided to be born again mainly because I didn't want to go to hell. I will say, that it felt like a real experience, my life did seem to have more meaning. Of course, I had a church full of people so happy that I had "finally" gotten saved. Soon after, I met my husband of 21 years. He also had just gotten saved and delivered from a life of drugs and alcohol. We have had our ups and downs, but I can say that we have a very strong marriage 21 years later. We have 8 children ranging in age from 19 to 2 years. I love my family and have a wonderful group of friends who are encouraging and loving. They are all, of course, fundamental Christians, albeit fairly easygoing ones.

 

I have always had questions about my religion. I have read the Bible through and saw lots of things that I had real problems with. The atrocities committed by "godly" men and even God in the Old Testament alarmed me. But when I questioned this, I was just told we can't understand God's ways. He had his reasons for killing innocent people....WTF!!!! I am ashamed that I bought this line of reasoning for 20 years. I have also suffered from pretty severe depression since my teen years. I hate to blame this on religion, because my family does have a tendency toward this, but I can say that religion kept me from getting help for years! I was told that taking antidepressants was wrong and that I just needed to pray harder or deal with the sin in my life.( there were no big sins to speak of, I was a faithful wife who stayed at home and took care of her young children) I finally got help anyway, and have been so much better since being put on Zoloft. Of course, there was a lot of guilt associated with this decision. That has been the hardest thing to deal with, the guilt! And the fear, of going to hell, of one of my children not getting saved and going to hell. And sadly, I go to a fairly loving church, there are many that are much worse out there.

 

My husband and I have been out of church for the past year, mainly because of his huge workload. Sundays are our only day to rest and enjoy being together. Going to church with 8 children is not relaxing. Yes, lots of guilt about this too! We are still active in church activities however because we have been member of this church for over 15 years and pretty much know everyone. So far, no one is really worried about our salvation. It is nice not to go to church and have to feel bad about myself all the time. I guess not having this indoctrination every week has led me to where I am now. It is like I can think so much more clearly. And this thinking and reading is leading me to the fact that I believed a fairy tale. I have no idea what to do with this thinking. No one knows about what I am going through except my very Christian mother. She has been very loving and understanding, but she really thinks I will come out of this doubt a stronger Christian than ever. However, I am pretty sure I am going the opposite way towards complete atheism. I never thought I would write those words! My older children attend a Fundamental Christian School and I home school the younger ones with a Christian curriculum. My children are very devoted Christians. My husband doesn't even know how I am thinking except that I have become somewhat liberal. I no longer think homosexuals are destined for an eternity in hell and I even drink and go dancing with husband on occasion. My husband much prefers the new me (i used to be so scared to do anything that was too much fun out of fear of being punished), so I think he would be very understanding. I am just afraid of saying something and leading them astray, what if I am wrong and because of me they end up in hell?!!! This indoctrination of an afterlife in hell is just so strongly entrenched in my beliefs, I can't make it go away!!

 

I could go on and on, but just wanted to give a brief intro as to where I am and why I am here. I truly feel like I have no one to talk to.

 

tonya

 

Greetings, Tonya. You've mentioned 'guilt' and 'fear' several times in your post. This is the essence of Christianity. Behavior control by guilt and fear. But you havent had the 'influence' of the Christian congregation and a pastor filling your head with baloney for a year so the brainwashing is wearing off. You are seeing life as it really is. Now if god really existed and really cared, you would not be able to 'fall away.' He would be keeping you blissfully under his wing. But since god is just your imagination and the imaginative ramblings of other people, well doubt sets in. And because god doesnt exist keeping the faith requires work.

 

As you progress your way out of the grip of religion, guilt and fear will subside.

[midniterider]

You've introduced your child to the idea that it is ok to be gay. Your husband is happy with your 'liberalness.' That's a good start. I think you could subtly de-convert your family slowly over time just by letting old Christian ideas gently melt away and by slowly introducing new non-Christian ideas. If a family member gets suspicious you could always say that you just don't believe in that certain thing (like praying the gay away) anymore. No two Christians agree on all topics of interest anyway. That doesn't mean you're a total non-believer (even if you are ).

 

" I feel so guilty now for having indoctrinated them the way I have. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing "

 

You WERE doing the right thing at the time. Now you've found an even better way to raise your kids. You have always wanted the best for your children so there is no need for guilt. Turn that guilt into the positive action of raising your children without the need of foolish Christianity.

:-)

[Vigile]

What a fascinating story Tonya. As for fear, knowledge replaces fear, so learning is the anecdote. There are quite a few resources on this site, including the podcast section that might be useful. Others here might be able to offer up book ideas. It's been so long since I deconverted I don't really know what books are most useful for the process.

 

The main thing to remember is you don't have to adopt a label. If you are still unsure, just be unsure, you don't need to choose. That's the great thing about life, there are few rules when someone behind a pulpit is no longer telling you what to do and think.

[Vigile]

I feel so guilty now for having indoctrinated them the way I have. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing

 

If it helps, this sounds a lot like my mom, though you are far too young to be my mother.

 

She and my father indoctrinated me because they honestly believed they were doing the best thing for me. I have always understood that and have never harbored resentment of any kind for it. Like a present, it's the thought that counts and their thoughts were pure as clearly yours were too.

[Perfessor]

Tonya, thanks for your story.

 

Quiting a Christian group like you have described is going to be kind of like quiting a cult. The members may shun you and act like you've grown horns. Might as well get used to the idea. Groups such as that always profess they are going to heaven as a result of being saved and they don't even require judgement anymore because they have judged themselves worthy....and unbelievers unworthy... judging themselves and others in complete contradiction to their scriptures. Knowledge of these things can make telling people your heart seem alot harder than it should be. At least you can tell us. WE won't be judgemental.

 

Personally, I believe judgemental people use religion as a cover to use it with a feeling of superiority, as if they DESERVE to feel that way toward the unbeliever.

[ConureDelSol]

It took me a couple of years to come to terms with the fact that I just can't force myself to believe the Bible. It took me longer to wipe clean that fear of Hell. Just know that you lived your life to it's fullest and that your legacy will live on through the people you have influenced. Then, when you are dead, there is nothing, but you aren't able to think about it, because you just aren't there. I'm fully comfortable with the idea that I will just be a lifeless husk feeding the planet and helping to create more life.

 

Your children, I'm afraid, are probably going to be the most difficult part of this. You have attended church for so long, held up certain beliefs, sent them to a Christian school... They will be confused. If you introduce ideas like "homosexuality is okay" (which it is) then if they finally conform to that thinking they will be criticized by other students and teachers for their belief and they'll be right back to wondering what is right. I'm not saying that you should pull them all out of their school, but if you have the option, sending them to a public school would be an eye-opening experience. Putting them in an environment where they aren't constantly fed conflicting information will help them to make their own decisions.

 

Now, if your children choose to eventually follow the Christian path, then that should be okay. Sure, they will go through the same pain you went through, but it's all part of a learning experience that matures us and makes us better people. They may be Jesus-zombies for the rest of their lives also. Either way, that should not be something that separates you from your children. Your husband, based on your descriptions of him, probably will not be an issue at all. I may disagree highly with the lifestyles and beliefs of my Christian friends, but I love them all the same.

[Sissi71]

.

 

I have always had questions about my religion. I have read the Bible through and saw lots of things that I had real problems with. The atrocities committed by "godly" men and even God in the Old Testament alarmed me. But when I questioned this, I was just told we can't understand God's ways. He had his reasons for killing innocent people....WTF!!!!

tonya

 

This is exactly the same excuse I heard when I was with christians. All is done to keep you in brainwashing. And in fact

people scare to know the truth. They can also say that the devil try to influence you....The best thing you can do

is listening what your inner voice is saying to you. Have you watched the video I posted "challenge to christians"....?it

is exactly what you noticed : The God in old testament is not the same than in the New testament. In the old testament

you read that god killed babies, innocent people and in the new t. you see Jesus loving children. And the bible says

that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. You probably know this verse.

 

It is also possible that the religion has a help to your depression....

 

I wish you a good day and take care of you.

[momof8]

It took me a couple of years to come to terms with the fact that I just can't force myself to believe the Bible. It took me longer to wipe clean that fear of Hell. Just know that you lived your life to it's fullest and that your legacy will live on through the people you have influenced. Then, when you are dead, there is nothing, but you aren't able to think about it, because you just aren't there. I'm fully comfortable with the idea that I will just be a lifeless husk feeding the planet and helping to create more life.

 

 

I actually have no problem with the idea of everything being over when I die. I have had a good life, going to sleep for eternity sounds pretty nice, I like to sleep lol I do wish the people who have suffered could have a nice afterlife, but I guess the idea of it all just being over is good too.

 

Your children, I'm afraid, are probably going to be the most difficult part of this. You have attended church for so long, held up certain beliefs, sent them to a Christian school... They will be confused. If you introduce ideas like "homosexuality is okay" (which it is) then if they finally conform to that thinking they will be criticized by other students and teachers for their belief and they'll be right back to wondering what is right. I'm not saying that you should pull them all out of their school, but if you have the option, sending them to a public school would be an eye-opening experience. Putting them in an environment where they aren't constantly fed conflicting information will help them to make their own decisions.

 

This is difficult, because the school system where I live sucks! Part of the reason they are in private school is to get a decent education. I have thought of sending them to the Catholic School, but we cannot afford $6000 a year per child. Our local Fundy school is much more reasonable. The school they attend can be really out there with some of their beliefs, but this is kinda good because I can tell my girls to just do what they say, but they don't have to believe it. I am slowly trying to let my kids know that the world is not some evil place, at least not the way they think it is. I am known for being a very liberal Christian, we listen to regular music, my kids are allowed to watch tv and go to the movies. My husband and I watch shows like Dexter and True Blood and while not allowed to watch this stuff yet, they are too young, they know we do and think it is fine. I am hoping I can slowly deconvert them. Of course, my 14 year old has scriptures all over her wall :/ One day at a time.

 

Now, if your children choose to eventually follow the Christian path, then that should be okay. Sure, they will go through the same pain you went through, but it's all part of a learning experience that matures us and makes us better people. They may be Jesus-zombies for the rest of their lives also. Either way, that should not be something that separates you from your children. Your husband, based on your descriptions of him, probably will not be an issue at all. I may disagree highly with the lifestyles and beliefs of my Christian friends, but I love them all the same.

 

I will love my children and have a relationship with them no matter what they choose in their life. I will also have a relationship with my parents and friends that are all still in the church right now because they are really good people and I love them. I can live with keeping my feelings somewhat quiet. It helps that none of them are really Jesus freaks anymore. We all go out and have a few drinks and act like regular people. They are really just like me, they just havn't come to the conclusions I have.

[momof8]

.

 

I have always had questions about my religion. I have read the Bible through and saw lots of things that I had real problems with. The atrocities committed by "godly" men and even God in the Old Testament alarmed me. But when I questioned this, I was just told we can't understand God's ways. He had his reasons for killing innocent people....WTF!!!!

tonya

 

This is exactly the same excuse I heard when I was with christians. All is done to keep you in brainwashing. And in fact

people scare to know the truth. They can also say that the devil try to influence you....The best thing you can do

is listening what your inner voice is saying to you. Have you watched the video I posted "challenge to christians"....?it

is exactly what you noticed : The God in old testament is not the same than in the New testament. In the old testament

you read that god killed babies, innocent people and in the new t. you see Jesus loving children. And the bible says

that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. You probably know this verse.

 

It is also possible that the religion has a help to your depression....

 

I wish you a good day and take care of you.

 

Yes, I have seen that video! One of the things that brought me to where I am. You know, I am wondering about the depression getting better now that I don't believe all of this crap. Of course, I am still on my meds and I am in an emotional upheaval right now because I am having to deal with no longer believing everything I have believed for most of my life. However, I will be curious to see how I am in about a year. It would be wonderful if the depression is gone!

 

Thank you for the well wishes

[momof8]

At least you can tell us. WE won't be judgemental.

 

Personally, I believe judgemental people use religion as a cover to use it with a feeling of superiority, as if they DESERVE to feel that way toward the unbeliever.

 

 

Joining this group has been a great thing for me! Everyone here has been so wonderful!

And yes, a lot of Christians are unbelievably judgmental, I used to be one of them Though I usually kept my thoughts to myself, it still makes me sick to think of how I used to think of people. Thankfully, my friends and family still in the church are not like this anymore, they are really nice people, we have all come a long way in getting that stick out of our ass! LOL My parents are a little more legalistic, at least my Dad is, but they have come a long way from how they used to be!!! And they keep getting better and better.

[momof8]

I feel so guilty now for having indoctrinated them the way I have. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing

 

If it helps, this sounds a lot like my mom, though you are far too young to be my mother.

 

She and my father indoctrinated me because they honestly believed they were doing the best thing for me. I have always understood that and have never harbored resentment of any kind for it. Like a present, it's the thought that counts and their thoughts were pure as clearly yours were too.

 

Thank you for this Vigile Yes, I always was trying to do my best, no matter how misguided I was.

[momof8]

You've introduced your child to the idea that it is ok to be gay. Your husband is happy with your 'liberalness.' That's a good start. I think you could subtly de-convert your family slowly over time just by letting old Christian ideas gently melt away and by slowly introducing new non-Christian ideas. If a family member gets suspicious you could always say that you just don't believe in that certain thing (like praying the gay away) anymore. No two Christians agree on all topics of interest anyway. That doesn't mean you're a total non-believer (even if you are ).

 

 

 

I think this is my plan midniterider! It has already started, like you said, they just think I have become a more liberal christian, who says I have to tell them I am an atheist. As long as religion is not completely running their lives, I will feel like I succeeded.

[SillyString]

Welcome Tonya, and thanks for sharing your story.

 

A lot of us have been through this. I know how hard it is to not be able to share things that you learn and believe with your family. I have had to keep all that I have learned pretty much to myself, because I'm not ready for the consequences of telling my family that I'm now an atheist. My husband doesn't even know the extent of it.

 

I'm glad you went and got help for the depression and didn't let it go on too long. I've dealt with that, too.

 

You've come to the right place. This site is a great place to connect with others when you are surrounded by Christians who might not understand what you're going through. It's helped me so very much.

[stryper]

Welcome Tonya,

 

I really don't have much to add that wouldn't be a repeat. I did want to share this forum post.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/21830-phases-of-deconversion/

 

I have found it to be generally true for many of the stories people posted on here, and may prove helpful.

 

Overall, you'll find this a supportive place. Like any large group of people we do occasionally have our spats, but then what family doesn't.

[ChurchSucks]

Hi, my name is Tonya and I am a married, 40 year old mother of 8. I have been raised in Fundamental Christianity since I was 12, and had attended a fundamental church even before my parents became "saved" when I was 12. I was quite the rebellious teenager, but at the age of 19 decided to be born again mainly because I didn't want to go to hell. I will say, that it felt like a real experience, my life did seem to have more meaning. Of course, I had a church full of people so happy that I had "finally" gotten saved. Soon after, I met my husband of 21 years. He also had just gotten saved and delivered from a life of drugs and alcohol. We have had our ups and downs, but I can say that we have a very strong marriage 21 years later. We have 8 children ranging in age from 19 to 2 years. I love my family and have a wonderful group of friends who are encouraging and loving. They are all, of course, fundamental Christians, albeit fairly easygoing ones.

 

I have always had questions about my religion. I have read the Bible through and saw lots of things that I had real problems with. The atrocities committed by "godly" men and even God in the Old Testament alarmed me. But when I questioned this, I was just told we can't understand God's ways. He had his reasons for killing innocent people....WTF!!!! I am ashamed that I bought this line of reasoning for 20 years. I have also suffered from pretty severe depression since my teen years. I hate to blame this on religion, because my family does have a tendency toward this, but I can say that religion kept me from getting help for years! I was told that taking antidepressants was wrong and that I just needed to pray harder or deal with the sin in my life.( there were no big sins to speak of, I was a faithful wife who stayed at home and took care of her young children) I finally got help anyway, and have been so much better since being put on Zoloft. Of course, there was a lot of guilt associated with this decision. That has been the hardest thing to deal with, the guilt! And the fear, of going to hell, of one of my children not getting saved and going to hell. And sadly, I go to a fairly loving church, there are many that are much worse out there.

 

My husband and I have been out of church for the past year, mainly because of his huge workload. Sundays are our only day to rest and enjoy being together. Going to church with 8 children is not relaxing. Yes, lots of guilt about this too! We are still active in church activities however because we have been member of this church for over 15 years and pretty much know everyone. So far, no one is really worried about our salvation. It is nice not to go to church and have to feel bad about myself all the time. I guess not having this indoctrination every week has led me to where I am now. It is like I can think so much more clearly. And this thinking and reading is leading me to the fact that I believed a fairy tale. I have no idea what to do with this thinking. No one knows about what I am going through except my very Christian mother. She has been very loving and understanding, but she really thinks I will come out of this doubt a stronger Christian than ever. However, I am pretty sure I am going the opposite way towards complete atheism. I never thought I would write those words! My older children attend a Fundamental Christian School and I home school the younger ones with a Christian curriculum. My children are very devoted Christians. My husband doesn't even know how I am thinking except that I have become somewhat liberal. I no longer think homosexuals are destined for an eternity in hell and I even drink and go dancing with husband on occasion. My husband much prefers the new me (i used to be so scared to do anything that was too much fun out of fear of being punished), so I think he would be very understanding. I am just afraid of saying something and leading them astray, what if I am wrong and because of me they end up in hell?!!! This indoctrination of an afterlife in hell is just so strongly entrenched in my beliefs, I can't make it go away!!

 

I could go on and on, but just wanted to give a brief intro as to where I am and why I am here. I truly feel like I have no one to talk to.

 

tonya

 

Thanks so much for the post Tonya. I can relate to you a lot, as I too am a closeted non-believer right now. It really is a sucky position to be in. But I would say giving up your faith is one of the best decisions you will ever make... it is so liberating! Looking back on my christian life, I truly see that there really is no freedom in Christ, but rather bondage. It's the epitome of irony; Christ is supposed to take the chains off of you, but it is giving up belief in Christ that really and truly takes the chains off.

 

But my advice: do what you think would make you most happy. For many, coming out is worth the persecution. For others, coming out brings on a severe amount of hardship. Neither decision is wrong. Just know that it is your choice though.

 

Take care!

[lilcoppertop]

I feel so guilty now for having indoctrinated them the way I have. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing

 

If it helps, this sounds a lot like my mom, though you are far too young to be my mother.

 

She and my father indoctrinated me because they honestly believed they were doing the best thing for me. I have always understood that and have never harbored resentment of any kind for it. Like a present, it's the thought that counts and their thoughts were pure as clearly yours were too.

 

I didn't read this till just now, but the other day I caught my mom in the kitchen and told her I don't at all resent that she and my dad indoctrinated me the way they did. I know they feel bad about it themselves because they no longer believe in Christianity and they don't like that my sister and I got kinda messed up because of it, but I wanted to make sure she knows that I'm not mad. They did what they thought was best. And I'm glad for that.

 

Tonya, it is pretty clear that your intentions have always been for the good of your children. They may not understand or like your change of belief at this time, but I'm sure they'll respect you for your honesty to both them and yourself. And if some or all of them deconvert in the future, their freedom will be because of these steps you're taking now. I really admire you for this. It takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing.

[Voice]

momof8, you've found a lot of people to talk to here as you see.

I haven't yet read all the replies here, but i will this evening.

 

As to educating your family, it may be too late to alter education for your older kids, but the ones you home school have potential to learn more than just christianity. If you want to talk about it, PM me. I'm from a family of educators and i can help you.

One thing to remember is that christianity is a gift that keeps on giving. One day it may be your kids turning against you for viewing christianity for what it is. Not a pleasant thought, but real. There's still time for you to turn it upward and slow down the damage. However, it's also true that a lot of kids who go to strict christian schools come out non christians. Kids aren't stupid, they can see folly often better than adults.

 

It sounds like your greatest obstacle is/will be peer pressure. You would find yourself going through motions of christian ritual because if you don't, the wrath (entirely by the christians, not by god) will come down upon you. They will you tell you it's god's wrath of course, but if you understand that it's their wrath and not god's, it's a start. They're only people. They can only go so far to try wrecking your life. They're on an island in a vast sea, and you can boat going calmly to other islands or a mainland. The mainland is pretty cool, lots of great people.

[Blue elephant]

My children went to a christian school for a while. What did they learn?

 

They learned that the nastiest cattiest girls came from the most religious families! Actions speak louder than words!

[Guest wester]

This is the way people are controlled - through fear. Here is how to do it - set up a double bind where death might result in a second life filled with, er, hell fire. Never mind that there is no proof whatsoever for this claim and no way to prove it. Once you get well-meaning people to buy into it, you have them under control for life. Throw in a bunch of other people who bought the line any presto - now you have a "community" (sic) which self-polices behavior by threat of expulsion. Once the ball is rolling you are on your way to power and riches.

 

I was reared a fundy freak. Never realized I was a freak. It all seemed so normal in my American community of freaky people. Then I went to teach English in Beijing. One day an 11 year old Chinese kid was being mildly naughty by writing on the board during class break - or something like that. I told him what had been drilled into my head : "You'd better be good, or you'll go to hell." He looked at me with utmost sincerity and innocence and asked "What's hell?"

 

That is when my dam broke and the absolute cruelty and horror of explaining or indoctrinating a phantasmagorical eternal torture chamber into a child's mind became apparent. Trust me - there are millions and millions of families in China and around the world who don't worry for a minute about the Christian double bind and they seem to get along just swimmingly.

 

After this incident, it took me a few more years to get it, but I finally came to realize the profundity of Frank Zappa's immortal words: "THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS ONLY FRANCE."