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So... I Debated A Deluded Christian About Polygamy Today.


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I shouldn't have, because it was probably a waste of time, but I did get into a conversation with a man who runs his own "Counter-Cult" ministry to Mormons about polygamy. He was posting on Facebook about how polygamy is a sin, which couldn't be further from the truth. I thought some of you might enjoy reading the transcript.

 

[Note: I modified it a little bit so that I could take out some of my personal information.]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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      Me: Biblically, you cannot say that polygamy is a sin.
       
      In 2 Samuel 12:8, God says to David: "I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more!"
       
      God may not have intended it as the "purest" from of marriage, but God condoned it, and, as you can see here, "gave" David his wives. I'm not saying I agree with polygamy, I just think it's ironic when Christians knock the Mormons for their prophets being polygamous. Severely ironic.


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      Rocky: ‎"2 Samuel 12:8 is a type of phraseology (choice and pattern of words) that means nothing more than that God in His providence had given David, as king, everything that was Saul's."
       
      Me: It doesn't matter whether God deliberately gave them as wives or gave them to be put under his care. Why would God "give" those wives to David if it was a sin for him to do so? If polygamy is a sin, why would God never have corrected David for it like he did with his sin with Bathsheba and murder of Uriah?
       
      Come on, seriously. You're not making much sense.

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      Rocky: If you can take polygamy as being accepted because they did it in the Bible then does that mean that anyone who blasphemes the Name of the Lord can be stoned to death? "
       
      Me: The punishment for blaspheming is clearly laid out in the Pentateuch. The punishment for polygamy is not. You are simply making the argument from silence because "God never commanded it", but that is not true. According to 2 Samuel, God in his sovereignty, put those wives in David's care. If polygamy is a sin like you're saying, then God caused David to sin here. Did God ever force anyone to blaspheme? Your argument holds no weight.


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      Rocky: .... So I check your profile and find you must have put your sons photo up as your profile pic since you claim you have been a Christian for "26" years. This led me to take a look at your posts. What can I say? Disgust that someone like you is trolling Christian sites with no apparent reason other than give useless opinions. I would sit here and use scripture to show you are wrong in your "theological" thinking, but the Bible tells me I am not to judge those "outside". In other words, those who do not know Him. You post such filth and straight up blasphemy and then come to places like this to impose your warped thoughts on others? Do not come here in your wolves clothing thinking there is a free meal of sheep. We know God and His Word and will not debate the Bible with someone who openly blasphemes it.


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      Me:
      Lol... no the picture is of me. I deconverted at age 26, so I was in Christianity for 26 years. I guess if you count when I made a profession of faith at age 12, I would only have been a Christian for around 14 years. But now that I'm no longer a believer it doesn't really matter either way.
       
      And I'm shocked. I wasn't on here trying to destroy anyones faith. I simply just wanted to point out that you are wrong on this specific theological point. And instead of addressing it, you attack me. And I am not "trolling" your page, I liked your page along with many other pages having to do with Mormonism because it has always been an interesting topic for me. Why so angry?


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      And what did I say about Esther that was untruthful? Have you read Esther?
       
      [Note: Rocky was earlier referring to "blasphemy" I posted about Esther in a status, where I said, "Esther: She became queen because she was a great fuck. I didn't say it, the Bible did!"
      about an hour ago · Like

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      Rocky:
      Why do you feel you are qualified to clarify beliefs about God's Word when you don't believe in Him. You openly deny Him. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man (unsaved) does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. This is you, and you are not qualified to try and teach ANYONE spiritual things because you are not a believer. I am not angry. I just tire of those who think they should tell others what the truth of the Bible is when they are in the dark themselves. You expose the truth of God' Word: Matthew 15:14 they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit. This is what you are doing with you opinion. Take heed of this: Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.
      about an hour ago · Like

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      Mark as Spam
       
      Rocky: ... About Esther. Since you claim to know the truth of the Bible, you failed to realize the offense you bring with such statements, even if you find humor in mixing vulgar language with the Bible. Maybe you should have remembered: Ephesians 5:4 and THERE MUST BE NO filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting. See while you start playing the victim role or act as if I dodge your deep theological knowledge, the fact of the matter is, is that you outright deny God then play preacher when you have disqualified yourself due to unbelief.
      45 minutes ago · Like

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      Me: I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps I should clarify my intentions; I am by no means a believer. I do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I've studied the Bible for quite a while, and it became evident to me that it is just not coherent. Many of the books in the New Testament were not written by who they were claimed to be (2 Peter for example). I do not say this to try to waiver your faith (it doesn't matter to me whether you believe or not), but simply to explain why I left the faith.
       
      I am not trying to "be a spiritual guide" to these people. But through hermeneutics, context, and plain reading, you can understand what the Bible is saying. Even though this wasn't written by Peter, but because you believe it is inspired, this should apply to you: 2 Peter 1:20 says, "Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation...". Even from a believer's perspective, the meaning of Scripture is objective. Just because I am not a believer does not mean I don't have access to commentaries, notes, and common sense. Therefore, I can say that the Bible does not portray polygamy as sinful - it is even talked about as being brought about by God himself. It just baffles me that you argue differently when it is so self-evident.
       
      And you should also know that I am one of the most reluctant non-believers you will ever meet. I loved being a Christian. I can't tell you all the times I was moved to tears because of how I thought I saw God moving in my life. I loved God... I spent thousands of dollars on Seminary because I was "called to preach". But unfortunately I just couldn't get around the facts... what I had believed my whole life was not true. So, in the spirit of Paul's (or whoever wrote claiming to be Paul) admonition in 1 Corinthians 15:17-19, where he says, "If Christ be not raised... our faith is worthless... we are of all people most to be pitied", I have chosen to no longer waste my life.

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It was pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that once he had lost the argument, rather than admit defeat he changed the topic and essentially said, "butt out".

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It's almost impossible to be rational when you're a believer.

 

It's tough to take a true step back and look objectively at the Bible and at personal experiences when one has been a christian all their life. A lot of christians (including me until recently) can ignore the inconsistencies of the Bible and go by experience to prove god. But they go by emotional experience (their own and others, mostly experienced in worship services), instead of going by those that at objectively measured, such as verifiable healing (beyond statistical normality), fulfillment of personal prophecy, etc.

 

It's tough to cross that barrier, but once you do, there's no going back.

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Btw churchsucks, not sure if you've read my extimony but this is one of the things that stuck out for me when I first read the bible, which was the cause of my deconversion.

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Btw churchsucks, not sure if you've read my extimony but this is one of the things that stuck out for me when I first read the bible, which was the cause of my deconversion.

 

I'd love to check your extimony out, I'll be sure and read it when I get home from work (I'm just about to walk out the door). The conversation has continued a little more with Rocky as well - his wife even started to chime in.... pretty juicy stuff.

 

It's illogical, moronic lines of thinking like this that further help eliminate my fear of hell. So for that, I thank Rocky.

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It was pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that once he had lost the argument, rather than admit defeat he changed the topic and essentially said, "butt out".

 

Yes, it is human nature to get angry whenever we are reminded that we have deluded ourselves with nonsense. We can see it happening in the ChurchSucks/Rocky debate above. We can see it in the Lion's Den debates all the time. And I remember feeling it myself whenever I got into a debate back when I was a Christian. People in such situations use various defense mechanisms. We see Rocky played the <Oh yeah well you are spiritually blind> and <you are insincere and just trolling> cards. How unoriginal. A Christian cannot admit that their beliefs are nonsense because that would make them an ex-Christian so instead they play games or try to think about something else.

 

 

MM

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The discussion continues....

 

 

 


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      Rocky: Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. I cringe knowing you have chosen the wide gate. I still find no honest reason for you to be on this page since you are not a believer. Your disbelief plays no part in converting anyone to a belief, but in fact turns them from beliefs. Surely there are aethist pages that would welcome you and you would fit right in. Admin77


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      Me:
      Irony. You get frustrated with Mormons who avoid answering difficult questions and give you cop-out answers like this and now you are doing it yourself.
       
      And trust me, fear of hell was very hard to get over. I would not have left the faith if I was not 100% convinced that the Bible wasn't true. It's obvious though if you just do research.
       
      You post all kinds of discrepancies of the Mormon faith, but yet, ironically, your own faith isn't standing on any more firm ground than theirs is. Belief in the Bible takes faith. A lot of it. Just like it does for the Book of Mormon.
       
      For instance, you have not been able to refute any of my theological points. Such as God initiating polygamy, Esther being chosen as queen because she was the most sexually pleasing to King Ahasuerus, 2 Peter not being written by Peter, and so forth. It's things like this that I lost my faith... I'm not trying to be rude, this is nothing personal, but you're the one who went digging on my profile and used my personal information to discredit the theological point I was making. All I ask is if I said something untrue, explain why it was untrue. My personal beliefs could have been left out of the conversation.
       
      And I like talking Mormonism because I find it interesting. I post on atheist/agnostic pages also.
      55 minutes ago · Like

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      Rocky's wife: You may like talking about Mormonism, but have you ever been one? By your own words the answer to that would be, NO! With that said, don't throw out a comment such as this >>"You post all kinds of discrepancies of the Mormon faith,..."<< without having proof to back up that statement. We as a ministry do not post anything about Mormonism that we cannot back up with 'facts' and 'documentation' if Mormons or those like you, refuse to look at the information provided that's your choice; however, it isn't your choice to come on here and out right make a false statement against this ministry.
      ~ Helen
      41 minutes ago · Like

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      Me: Helen, I was not saying that the "discrepancies" that you post about the Mormon faith are not true. I haven't seen anything you've said about the history of the LDS church that wasn't true. All I was saying is that you post the discrepancies about the Mormon faith and then refuse to address any discrepancies with your own faith. It just seems a tad ironic to me.
      29 minutes ago · Like

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      Rocky: I will not discuss or debate Christianity or mormonism with you. Since you outright say you are 100% against God there is no discussion. I discuss and debate these things with the end goal of exposing people to the lies of Mormonism and the truth of God's Word so that people may come to salvation. You may study all you want but biblical truth is only given to those who are spiritually alive. Your studying and reasoning will never open your eyes when they are closed to the truth. If your looking to debate to find more information to back up disbelief in God, you came to the wrong place.

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      Me: Are you not then disobeying 1 Peter 3:15, which says, "ALWAYS be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".
       
      I wasn't looking for a full fledged debate, I just made the point that biblically, polygamy is not a sin, and you never said why you disagree with me. Instead, you try to dig up dirt on me and use that to discredit my points instead. So much for gentleness and respect.

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    •  
      Rocky: I will not discuss or debate Christianity or mormonism with you. Since you outright say you are 100% against God there is no discussion. I discuss and debate these things with the end goal of exposing people to the lies of Mormonism and the truth of God's Word so that people may come to salvation. You may study all you want but biblical truth is only given to those who are spiritually alive. Your studying and reasoning will never open your eyes when they are closed to the truth. If your looking to debate to find more information to back up disbelief in God, you came to the wrong place

 

I love this. So his purpose is to expose people to the truth of God's Word so that they may come to salvation. That implies that they have not yet come to salvation. But if you are spiritually dead, that is you do not have salvation, then the conversation is over. That is because Biblical truth is only given to those who are spiritually alive.

 

So you have to already be saved in order to be saved!

 

 

 

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Rocky: ‎"2 Samuel 12:8 is a type of phraseology (choice and pattern of words) that means nothing more than that God in His providence had given David, as king, everything that was Saul's."

The Bible also says that David was a man after God's own heart, except for the matter of Bathsheba.

David had multiple wives and concubines.

The great patriarchs had multiple wives.

Moses had wives (plural), along with Jacob and Abraham.

The law of God also accomodates having multiple wives.

 

Deut 21:15-16

If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:

 

We know God and His Word and will not debate the Bible with someone who openly blasphemes it.

Yet they'll quote Paul, a man who openly undermined the law of God.

Paul also advocated that believers remain virgins, shunning marriage.

If they were unable to control their lust, they could marry but that indicated a weak attitude toward devotion to God.

I have to wonder why this guy has a wife and what that says about his devotion to the Lord.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...



    • Rocky: I will not discuss or debate Christianity or mormonism with you. Since you outright say you are 100% against God there is no discussion.

I would have pointed out that you never said you're against God, you just don't believe what he believes.

 

Anyway, I agree that it's quite ironic that those who blast people of other faiths for not answering objections refuse to answer objections themselves.

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