Help For Ex-new Age Or Occult Beliefs, Too?

[asanerman]

But in the Western Christian cultures, demons are totally externalized. And those who try to conjure them up for purposes of seeking power over others are perverse and broken individuals. The entire demonic thing is the West is a perversion. God and demons are all these external 'beings' and not symbols of ourselves. It's really sad and unfortunate, IMO. The point of 'meeting ones demon', is to make yourself whole. We are both light and dark within us, and to accept that and integrate those energies into higher truth in us is to become balanced, steady, powerful for the force of healing and health. Such a different mindset. Such a different reality.

 

I do not accept any external forces that are not at the same time internal.

 

I would agree with much of what you write here. However, I do think there is some room for thinking that in Christianity demons are not "totally external". There is this idea that one can "open oneself to demonic influence". That there are in fact external demons, but they cannot act without being given some form of permission, and maybe permission isn't the right word exactly, but some ability develops in a person to open them to the influence of demons. I actually heard this in church, not in my occult explorations.

This is still thinking in dualist terms. Even though someone says someone can 'open themselves up' to demonic influence, that demon 'entering into them' is still, an external demon. I am saying that that demon is you, yourself, not some other entity "out there". It may be sensed 'outside us', only because of a psychological thing we do to externalize something of ourselves to objectify it in order to look at it. We split it off from inside us and see it, sense it, react to it as "not us", when it is in reality very much 'us'. Fear is what motivates us to push it outside us as 'not me'. We fear that nature, and so we objectify and personify it will all sorts of imagined creepiness and destructive powers. We then empower it through that fear. It is created by us as we push it from us.

 

So when the Christian says in their jarring ignorance, "If you mediate - you are being hypnotized and open to devils influencing you with their dark suggestions, or even having one possess you!", the entire thought aside from being dead wrong, is based on this dualistic idea of reality. Even if in their myth, the demon jumps inside you, it is still dualistic. It is still a separation of you and other, you and demon, regardless of where positionally the two may reside. It is still two; not one and the selfsame. I say one and the selfsame, objectified symbolically as external. Same thing with God. We project and imagine God as other to self.

 

I think that there are spirits, both beneficial and demonic, that attach themselves to places and in rare instances, people. It is both external and internal.

If all is One, how is there other? These are all projections on a wall, aren't they?

 

I would not state this if I didn't experience it personally, and I can't "prove it" to most people's satisfaction. I am very reluctant to say a particular situation is definitely demons - (my definition of demons are negative spiritual forces) - in another person's life, but there was a period of years where such a force was acting on me. At the time, it was plain as day to me. Of course my background and conditioning plays a part in my perceptions, I don't deny that.

Very much your background plays a part in how you both experience and understand these things. I too may experience a 'dark presence', but I recognize that as a projection of either my anxieties or fears. They are me, objectified and externalized. Yes you 'experience' them, that is the point. They make themselves manifest to you through your subconscious mind, from your subconscious mind to your conscious mind. They are highly symbolic in this way, coming from the subconscious.

 

How the conscious mind processes and understands, rejects or integrates them, is a matter of your conscious structures of understanding and/or training. The training you got was from Christianity. "Bad, evil, pray to Jesus to make them go away, get away from me dark lord! God will defeat you!", sort of complete dualistic mythology. In nondualism, this is resolved in an entirely different manner than Jesus Christ's feet splitting the world in two and he crushes these things under foot. They're melded into one; pairs of opposites become dissolved in unity - not defeat. They are defeated only in the sense of being transformed.

 

This is one major reason why Christianity and all it's child religions in the West who think in terms like this will always and ever be riding that same merry-go-round. You can't get off in dualism.

 

 

Keep it up Aman you're starting to make good sense!

 

The Great Spiritual Traditions understood reality in terms of body, mind, soul and spirit. They did not understand--and could not have in their time--that states of consciousness have correlates in the organic brain (e.g. serotonin, dopamine, neurosynapses, DNA, neocortex, triune brain) that impinge on states of consciousness. Likewise the Great Traditions (dating thousands of years) had little understanding that individual awareness in profoundly molded by both its background cultural worldview and the modes of techno-economic productions in which it finds itself.

 

They (The Great Traditions) were bound to come under the harshest scrutiny because they claimed to have all-encompassing knowledge, or at least claimed to be complete paths, and yet modern scientific discoveries would decisively undercut that claim. But NOT undercut their claims in where they specialized--and that’s the point: they have incredibly important if partial truths that need to integrated in the larger picture.

 

Be patient with those of us who are "going through" major transformations at which point and not before, can we awaken to a deep and authentic non-dualism.

 

Thanks for illuminating the arduous waves of interior growth!

[Antlerman]

Keep it up Aman you're starting to make good sense!

I said elsewhere I could feel a shift where what I was saying was becoming easier to express and perhaps it made more sense. I'm more than pleased that it resonates with you. It's all been there, but one piece was missing it seems. That union of the theoretical with the experiential; that place beyond mere metaphysics. One can know something theoretically and intuitively, but there is nothing like first-hand experience to speak from. It is like a second brain. It how I try to describe it.

 

The Great Spiritual Traditions understood reality in terms of body, mind, soul and spirit.

You are referring to the Great Chain of Being, of course.

 

They (The Great Traditions) were bound to come under the harshest scrutiny because they claimed to have all-encompassing knowledge, or at least claimed to be complete paths, and yet modern scientific discoveries would decisively undercut that claim. But NOT undercut their claims in where they specialized--and that’s the point: they have incredibly important if partial truths that need to integrated in the larger picture.

And despite all the glory that science has brought to awareness, despite all the other values and insights that have come from pursuing all the other disciplines of the humanities out from underneath the yoke of myth systems, the one unique contribution that is offered nowhere else but through religious traditions that adds to human experience is that of contemplation. It is not found anywhere else.

 

Be patient with those of us who are "going through" major transformations at which point and not before, can we awaken to a deep and authentic non-dualism.

Always important to be mindful of.

[struggling]

Thank you to everyone who had something supportive to say. I appreciate it!

 

To try to answer some of the questions:

 

It seems the languaging I'm using is upsetting to some people. I used New Age as an umbrella term because it encompassed occult and also other non-theistic concepts. If you feel more comfortable, I shall use the term non-theism instead of New Age to refer to my specific experiences.

 

It wasn't my intention to accuse non-theism of anything, just as none of us are trying to accuse Christianity or theism. I understand that non-theistic beliefs are often misunderstood and so people may view anything said against such beliefs as an attack on them – especially if they are sick of Christian attacks on their beliefs. I just want to be very clear: I am not attacking non-theism or theism or any type of religious or spiritual belief. I strongly believe that people have the right to make their own decisions and form their own beliefs. I fully respect that every one of you has formed your belief or have come to a lack of belief in a way that you are comfortable with, and it's not my business to try to change that or to say it's bad.

 

It seems to be tricky to find a good way to word things in order to best express my needs while not inadvertently coming across as attacking someone's beliefs.

 

I noticed some other new people here are having a hard time because they don't believe in Christianity anymore but emotionally they still have the beliefs. I can relate to them and in addtion I feel that way about my non-theistic beliefs, too. I'm having a hard time stopping belief in either of them even though I don't want to believe in either of them. On the Internet there are more resources available for people leaving theism than for people leaving non-theism. For instance, what's been helping me most with leaving Christianity is learning about the contradictions in the bible, learning about its pagan origins and how it was reconstructed at different points in history. Learning about the mistranslation of hell for grave was also extremely helpful as was learning that the rapture was supposed to occur within the lifetime of Jesus' disciples.

 

The only resource I've found so far to help find other explanations for supernatural phenomenon is the author, Michael Shermer. He is a bit critical of so many different things so it's somewhat harsh to start there. I've also found some snippets online about the mind playing tricks on us, how we're more prone to “see” things at certain times like when our minds get tired, thinking we see something out of our peripheral vision, and also hypnopompic and hypnogogic experiences just before or just after sleeping.

[midniterider]

Hey there,

I am an ex-Christian -- first I was Roman Catholic and later I held some evangelical beliefs. Along the way while growing up I was also exposed to a lot of New Age beliefs of the scary variety so I've developed some phobias of psychic attacks from afar and demons that are able to interact with humans.

 

I've found a lot of resources online for deconverting from Christianity - it still hasn't fully left my system but I feel like I'm plugging along the best I can. With the New Age beliefs, it seems to be a tricky subject because many people don't see the harm in it as they can see about religions like Christianity.

 

I'm having a really hard time finding any kind of resources anywhere for help deconverting from occult or New Age beliefs. In fact, whenever I try to make a post about it, I nearly always get someone trying to tell me how the stuff I'm afraid of is really real and they try to tell me how great it is.

 

I hope you don't mind my posting this here, but I really just didn't know where else to turn for advice.

 

Maybe it is time to adopt an atheist point of view. Work on convincing yourself all psychic/spiritual stuff to be non-existent. Or train yourself in psychic self defense.

 

A quick google search came back with this: http://jricher.com/occult/psychic.pdf

[midniterider]

 

This is still thinking in dualist terms. Even though someone says someone can 'open themselves up' to demonic influence, that demon 'entering into them' is still, an external demon. I am saying that that demon is you, yourself, not some other entity "out there". It may be sensed 'outside us', only because of a psychological thing we do to externalize something of ourselves to objectify it in order to look at it. We split it off from inside us and see it, sense it, react to it as "not us", when it is in reality very much 'us'. Fear is what motivates us to push it outside us as 'not me'. We fear that nature, and so we objectify and personify it will all sorts of imagined creepiness and destructive powers. We then empower it through that fear. It is created by us as we push it from us.

 

 

I believe it was in a translation of the Lesser Key of Solomon, a treatise on summoning demons to do your bidding, where the presenter of the material said that when we are summoning demons, they aren't really some external entity but just a part of our mental makeup. He was definitely pointing out non-dualism. Fear can be reduced or eliminated by considering that the scary thing is just a part of me, like everything is a part of me. I am it and it is me.

[SleeplessGhost]

Not to be trite and use religious propaganda but, "If you seek me you shall not find me, unless you know the mystery: That if what you seek is not within you, you will never find it without"

 

You need to think about your beliefs and why you believe them. I understand that you may have been indoctrinated to believe these things but if it is causing you harm you need to get rid of it. I know that this is harder than it sounds, believe it or not I still sometimes fear final judgement and hell. Then I remember that compared to the Christian god I have the moral high ground. If you are afraid of evil spirits and psychic attack(Not sure what belief system you have right now) simply try and think rationaly about it. Why do you think you are under attack? Is there any other explanation?

 

Also, if you frequently feel you are under psychic attack you may be having panic attacks...

[blackpudd1n]

Not to be trite and use religious propaganda but, "If you seek me you shall not find me, unless you know the mystery: That if what you seek is not within you, you will never find it without"

 

You need to think about your beliefs and why you believe them. I understand that you may have been indoctrinated to believe these things but if it is causing you harm you need to get rid of it. I know that this is harder than it sounds, believe it or not I still sometimes fear final judgement and hell. Then I remember that compared to the Christian god I have the moral high ground. If you are afraid of evil spirits and psychic attack(Not sure what belief system you have right now) simply try and think rationaly about it. Why do you think you are under attack? Is there any other explanation?

 

Also, if you frequently feel you are under psychic attack you may be having panic attacks...

 

Sleepless makes an excellent point regarding panic attacks. and I encourage you to have the possibility checked out, Struggling.

 

I know when I was seriously beginning to doubt, before I started deconverting, and I was still going to church, I started to experience panic attacks at church. I could no-longer sit through a sermon, and ended up sitting right up the back each week so I could duck out when I needed to. In the end the panic attacks became so bad that I was in and out constantly during the service. It was deeply distressing and embarrassing, and at the time I did not understand what was going on with me. I stopped going to church because of them. Even now, two years later, just seeing someone from that church is enough to bring one on, and no-one from that church actually ever did anything wrong by me. It was just where I was attending at the beginning of the end.

 

If you are experiencing panic attacks, there is nothing to be ashamed of. When I was going through them, I thought I was being attacked by the devil and demonic forces because of my doubts. It was the only explanation I knew. Finding out I was experiencing panic attacks was such a relief.

[Sunny49]

I was also a new ager after I left christianity, and in my opinion new age is evan greater bullshit and non sense then christianity! All this stuff about "you are god", "if you believe something strong enough that it will be true", "if you strongly believe the ocean is ground then you will walk on the ocean with no problem" WTF? I suppose you read "The Secret" bullshit. "If you want to get a husband then pretend you already have him, make him space in your bed etc" Non sense. I really don't know who can buy this crap.

I had no problem deconverting from new age, as I had with christianity though, because in my country new age is not very popular and everybody thinks it's crap. I also found on the internet some text about how harmful new age is from psychiatrist. They said it can cause psychosis. I would put a link here for you, but it's in my native language, so it wouldn't be of a help to you. But I'm sure there are a lot of resources in english about it. Good luck!

[Sunny49]

Oh, I just rememberd. This series might help you:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIvF1fkFupc

 

It helped me

[VacuumFlux]

The only resource I've found so far to help find other explanations for supernatural phenomenon is the author, Michael Shermer. He is a bit critical of so many different things so it's somewhat harsh to start there. I've also found some snippets online about the mind playing tricks on us, how we're more prone to “see” things at certain times like when our minds get tired, thinking we see something out of our peripheral vision, and also hypnopompic and hypnogogic experiences just before or just after sleeping.

 

What about some anti-ghost hunter type stuff? I know there's some stuff out there now, particularly since there are ghost hunter shows on TV. There should be some stuff about how people who expect/want to see ghosts can misinterpret thing to see what they want to see.

 

There's also some stuff on pareidolia, where our pattern-seeking brains overdo the pattern-matching. This is what happens when we see pictures in the clouds (which can be fun exercise in imagination as long as you know you're just making things up) or the face of jesus on a piece of toast.

 

Then there's UFO/alien debunking. Not sure how useful that would be to you, but it's possible that the same experiences that some people contribute to aliens could be interpreted as demonic by someone with a different set of fears.

 

 

To reply to some of the other posts, if you have specific experiences or fears about something external trying to control you, it is definitely possible that (to use a set of terms that works for me) your subconscious is trying to tell you something. I do/did have a part of me that it took me a long time to accept (and still occasionally have trouble with); I briefly considered the possibility that I was demon posessed. Luckily for me, the flavor of christianity I was involved in didn't focus on the demons too much, so that never turned into a big problem. I eventually realized that I had to accept that part of me before I could have power over it. I was afraid that if I accepted it that it would take over, but instead I ended up seeing it as just another part of me that offers advice that I can choose not to follow.

 

Here's another thought that may or may not apply. People don't like to loose control over their lives. Bad things happening to you for no reason means that you can't make them stop. If you athropomorphise the bad things, like by calling them demons, then you have someone to blame, or an entity that can be bargained with. But once you've done that, it can be harder to figure out practical ways to address a bad situtation, because you've gotten the cause wrong. It's like a christian spending a lot of time praying for starving children in africa without ever donating any money or time to an organization that provides those children with food. Or praying to god for good weather for an outdoor party instead of planning a rain date or backup location. Or blaming the devil/gremlins for hiding your keys all the time instead of developing a consistent habit about where to leave them.