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Would We Debate With Christians Why We Left Christianity ?


Sissi71
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Hello everybody,

 

These last days I have been confronted to christians and they asked me why I left christianity and biblical beliefs.

 

I am wondering if I don't waste my time because as soon as people do not want to see the reality and the

incoherences, I could explain for hours for nothing.

 

I will say them my point of view, they will also with their bible brainwashing. The debate looks like a "ping pong party"...

 

I fear they try to keep me back in the doctrine.

 

What is you experience ?

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In my (short) experience as an atheist, I found that people who know me better are usually more sincere in their questions and more understanding in their reactions. Not a lot of people know though and I haven't encountered any trying to convert me as of yet. Apart from my pastor of course, but that is his job.

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I haven't encountered it yet, Sissi, but I'll let you know how it goes when I do!

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I used to do this but ultimately it's pretty much like debating your shit as to why you left it in the toilet.

 

mwc

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I used to do this but ultimately it's pretty much like debating your shit as to why you left it in the toilet.

 

mwc

 

 

Which is a valid question. I think you should flush it unless it is a really big one and you want everyone to see.

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I used to do this but ultimately it's pretty much like debating your shit as to why you left it in the toilet.

 

mwc

 

 

Which is a valid question. I think you should flush it unless it is a really big one and you want everyone to see.

 

Umm, don't stink up the place! Use a plunger please!

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Hello everybody,

I fear they try to keep me back in the doctrine.

 

What is you experience ?

 

Your fear is correct. Any rabid Christian will seriously try to convert you, or at least belittle you as an ignorant, immoral piece of caca! Although, some thoughtful Christians aren't like that. Here in the USA , there are way too many Christians who need a rabies vaccination.

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Hello everybody,

I fear they try to keep me back in the doctrine.

 

What is you experience ?

 

Your fear is correct. Any rabid Christian will seriously try to convert you, or at least belittle you as an ignorant, immoral piece of caca! Although, some thoughtful Christians aren't like that. Here in the USA , there are way too many Christians who need a rabies vaccination.

 

 

It is true and I noticed they try to make you think that you don't understand the bible properly. The last comment I received was " How can you passing on judging God ?" In fact I don't, but I just show that the bible does not match with reallity and the doctrine is a mind control. But I wonder if it is worthwile because I was like that in the past, as soon I was so influenced by the doctrine I had always a good excuse to show that the other was wrong, fighting with the bible. That's why I posted this message and I wonder if I must stopping all debate or not, if I'm wasting my time and energy. Christians are so focus on evangelism, they try to convert, they think they have a mission of saving folks....

 

God idea regarding a rabies vaccination :-)

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That's why I posted this message and I wonder if I must stopping all debate or not, if I'm wasting my time and energy. Christians are so focus on evangelism, they try to convert, they think they have a mission of saving folks....

 

If it weren't for an Ex Christian who took the time to challenge my Christian beliefs, I don't know where I would be today. He planted the seed of inquiry in me. Christians hold out in the hopes that they will plant their seed, so let us give them reasoned competition. The future of the planet is at stake. Really, their beliefs (evangelicals) do negatively affect our lives and planet.

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If someone is willing to listen (and not just sit there and try to reconvert me) then I will explain where I came from. Unfortunately, this is a rare occurrence, as most are so convinced that their version things are true that they simply cannot comprehend anything else. The vast majority of the time, I don't bother wasting my time.

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If someone is willing to listen (and not just sit there and try to reconvert me) then I will explain where I came from. Unfortunately, this is a rare occurrence, as most are so convinced that their version things are true that they simply cannot comprehend anything else. The vast majority of the time, I don't bother wasting my time.

 

I think you are right. People do not accept you have now a different belief that is yours and we dont have to argue for that. Belief is something personal. The fear of hell is so real for them they will be restless toward you, trying and trying again to convince you and they will let you down thinking

they must cut tie with unbelievers (like the bible says)....

I dont understand why I took me so many years to realize how the bible is intolerent and at least the subject of separations. It's a shame.

 

One of a christian I know told me about the children and folks which have been killed in old testament and I showed her this dangerous fact : "what about a baby like Hitler ? In the way of excusing the bible.... Don't you think it is an excuse to kill children like Jews did ???

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Being in the process of deconverting, I haven't had to debate with anyone about why I'm not a Christian anymore...but I'm figuring when the time comes I'll not debate. I see it as pointless. If someone actually cares about how I got to where I am, I'll tell them. But if their agenda is to re-convert me, it's just a waste of time. I've seen those debates and they seem to quickly dissolve into name-calling and ridiculous accusations.

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If someone is willing to listen (and not just sit there and try to reconvert me) then I will explain where I came from. Unfortunately, this is a rare occurrence, as most are so convinced that their version things are true that they simply cannot comprehend anything else. The vast majority of the time, I don't bother wasting my time.

Sissi.......ditto with HRD!

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Trying to explain to Christians why I left? My experience is that it's a lost cause. The only reason I debate is that other people can see the different angles. Those who are questioning faith and are serious about the problems with Christianity, they can see a connection and start thinking about it.

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There is not much point to debating Christians because they have a special "internal logic" that builds coherent (in context) arguments around Bible verses. Real world logic can't compete with religious faith.

 

As was mentioned in another thread, all they have to know is what their preacher told them, but if we don't believe along with them they want us to provide a doctoral dissertation on history, biology, geology, etc., etc. I haven't obliged them in quite a while. If pressed I just say I hold a different opinion and they can accept that fact or not because I couldn't care less what they believe.

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I do think it's helpful to debate Christians because it will help you see further flaws in their thinking, and may also help strengthen your own position if you're still working through things or a newbie deconvert.

 

However, aside from that though it's largely futile to expect anything to come from a debate with a Christian other than:

 

1.) They try and reconvert you, or

2.) they will tell you that you were never a "True Christian" or you wouldn't have left. <---- HATES this one! vtffani.gif

 

Either way, it should be a good test of your patience.

 

Good luck!

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The few times that it comes up I generaly start out by telling them that they do not want to debate the Christian religion with me because I know my shit. The simplist argument against Christianity is that their god sends people to be tortured forever.

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But I wonder if it is worthwile because I was like that in the past, as soon I was so influenced by the doctrine I had always a good excuse to show that the other was wrong, fighting with the bible. That's why I posted this message and I wonder if I must stopping all debate or not, if I'm wasting my time and energy.

That's a good question. The simple answer is to share knowledge and information is always a good thing, as you benefiting from that through others has shown. If you wish to debate them for that purpose then you should expect that they will not hear you in their current group-think frame of mind. That's a key to understanding a lot of the underlying motives behind the sorts of irrational and inconsistent responses you will get. Their very sense of self-identity is tied to the consistency of the group they belong to. Threaten its consistency, you threaten their stability, like pulling the rug out from underneath their footing on the ground.

 

I believe that appealing to reason is always a good thing, but reason is never the sole variable for why people make choices or believe how they choose to believe. You have to recognize those other factors as well. So if you engage with them, make sure your expectations are balanced and don't be surprised when clear evidence doesn't go always fly with otherwise reasonable people.

 

It was pointed out that one benefit as well is for yourself to help sharpen the edge of your own sword against their arguments. As you reason through their points of view it helps establish your own new footing in a post-group think mode of consciousness. It may help your process of differentiating from your own past, if you can use debate without getting sucked into the any emotional battles. Believe me, those pressed by your arguments will try to throw you off by the use of those sorts of tactics, such as threats of damnation and whatnot.

 

It's up to you. If you feel you'd like to debate because you wish to help yourself and possibly help others, then go for it but keep yourself in check with expectations of trying to win them over. I have seen the value of it here on this site as I debated with many Christians over the years and quite a few who started out all full of confidence they had the Truth with a capital T and we all were lost souls, actually ended up abandoning their positions after reasoned - and respectful - debate here. You have to see through their walls and why they argue the way they do, and key in on that rather that the typical crap they put in front of you to hide themselves behind. Remember what you put out in front of others and see the person behind that, and talk to that person more than the arguments.

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Debating with a Christian about why you left is probably futile. But if you like debate just for the sport, have at it! Just dont fight scripture with scripture. If you battle from a scriptural standpoint you have already stepped over partially to your opponent's side. You've empowered one of the enemy's scripture to counter other scripture. Insist from the start that the bible is total bullshit and equate it to the likes of a comic book or Ripley's Believe It or Not or some other asinine publication. The bible is the deep well of fantasy from which all of a Christian's arguments are born so deny them from the start. Also deny any supposed supernatural authority greater than yourself. This will deny fear-based arguments by your opponent. Your debate will be short and sweet.

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The few times I've debated with Christians, I usually end up with the "we cannot understand god's ways", and "you just need to have faith" cop-outs. People like this seem like a lost cause to me. If they cared about the truth, they wouldn't be Christians.

 

Most people are too weak to deal with the tough questions. I don't go looking to debate with people like that. It's pointless.

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…You have to see through their walls and why they argue the way they do, and key in on that rather that the typical crap they put in front of you to hide themselves behind. Remember what you put out in front of others and see the person behind that, and talk to that person more than the arguments.

At each stage of our unfolding one sees a different world--with different needs, different tasks, different dilemmas, different problems and pathologies.

 

I'm reminded of something Clare Graves said and quoted by Ken Welber in Integral Psychology p. 40

 

When the self’s center of gravity hovers around a given level of consciousness—”he or she has a psychology which is particular to that state. His her feelings, motivations, ethics and values, biochemistry, degree of neurological activation, learning system, belief systems, conception of mental health, ideas as to what mental illness is and how it should be treated, conceptions of and preferences for management, education, economics, and political theory and practice are all appropriate to that state.”

~from “Summary Statement: The Emergent. Cyclical, Double-Helix Model of the Adult Human Biopsychosocial Systems,” Boston. May 20, 1981

 

Considering that, I find, more often than not, that when I speak to that in another which reflects my own struggle, in spite of where they are on their developmental journey, much of the “typical crap” is avoided, some times, certainly not all the time. Sadly, many times the link is just not there-- better in those instances not to burn bridges, better to move along!

 

I have often stood in the humbling glow of awe when I have been told, sometimes years after the fact, that what I had to share with another made a defining difference for them!

 

The more I simultaneously exercise all the aspects of my being, from physical to emotional to mental to spiritual, I find that mutual respectful dialogue is indeed the time honored method of linking self and others in a dance of understanding, a dance which is deeply conducive to productive change and celebration.

 

Argument fosters insurmountable walls, much to lose with nothing to gained!

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I wouldn't. I see it as a complete waste. Christians are just going to repeat the same tricks they use to lie to themselves. There will be a lot of emotions; probably mostly anger. If I get outed in real life I'm just going to respond with "You wouldn't understand".

 

 

 

Edit: I meant debating it in the real world, offline. Clearly my history shows I do debate Christianity online. When everything is in writing it's easy to demonstrate how Christianity is illogical. And in text the emotion is not communicated so the pious certainty does nothing. Plus Christians can't shout you down when they can't remove your posts. In real life there would be no point to debate unless you are trying to make a funny youtube video.

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…You have to see through their walls and why they argue the way they do, and key in on that rather that the typical crap they put in front of you to hide themselves behind. Remember what you put out in front of others and see the person behind that, and talk to that person more than the arguments.

At each stage of our unfolding one sees a different world--with different needs, different tasks, different dilemmas, different problems and pathologies.

 

I'm reminded of something Clare Graves said and quoted by Ken Welber in Integral Psychology p. 40

 

When the self’s center of gravity hovers around a given level of consciousness—”he or she has a psychology which is particular to that state. His her feelings, motivations, ethics and values, biochemistry, degree of neurological activation, learning system, belief systems, conception of mental health, ideas as to what mental illness is and how it should be treated, conceptions of and preferences for management, education, economics, and political theory and practice are all appropriate to that state.”

~from “Summary Statement: The Emergent. Cyclical, Double-Helix Model of the Adult Human Biopsychosocial Systems,” Boston. May 20, 1981

 

Considering that, I find, more often than not, that when I speak to that in another which reflects my own struggle, in spite of where they are on their developmental journey, much of the “typical crap” is avoided, some times, certainly not all the time. Sadly, many times the link is just not there-- better in those instances not to burn bridges, better to move along!

 

I have often stood in the humbling glow of awe when I have been told, sometimes years after the fact, that what I had to share with another made a defining difference for them!

 

The more I simultaneously exercise all the aspects of my being, from physical to emotional to mental to spiritual, I find that mutual respectful dialogue is indeed the time honored method of linking self and others in a dance of understanding, a dance which is deeply conducive to productive change and celebration.

 

Argument fosters surmountable walls, much to lose with nothing to gained!

There is a lot in what you say here, and I understand it. This is much deeper and denser than I was going but I appreciate it. I agree that in that process of speaking to others on their level we are exercising our own, but at a certain point, I'm not sure how to put it, of wholeness, healing, centeredness, that our interest becomes more a curiosity to enhance understanding of where we are at, a curious love to where others are at all stages, a relishing in the beauty of all minds and stages of development. I understand this place. I agree that to become stuck in the argument is to never quite fully integrate our present stage as itself a tool, a means towards that full realization. But each stage becomes an exercise in development.

 

P.S. I love it that you read Wilber! :)

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Just skimming the last two posts, but isn't it interesting how some people (like many on this site) totally change their outlook or views on life, while others seem to be the same. It is as if they are frozen at a certain stage and either can't or don't want to move on.

 

I wonder why this happens.

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