Ex Christian Marriage Advise

[DesertBob]

I would say that your fiancee is probably right about me needing to "play the field". I've never done that. I tend to take some things too seriously, and I am an all or nothing person. Christianity didnt help with that either, because it put the idea that whoever you date needs to be someone you think you will marry, so I took that very seriously, and didn't really date at all. I had one serious relationship and one fling as a rebound when that serious relationship ended. And those both ended when I was 17. Since then I have had no relationships and no dating.

That was me also -- at your age and pretty much at any age ever after. I don't seem to know how else to be. Kind of reminds me of an old song -- might be from Annie Oakley -- "With me, it's all, or nuthin', no half-way romance will do ... " Is this a defect? From a certain perspective, I suppose it is. Looked at from other angles, it's a virtue. My late wife used to say, "your greatest strength is your greatest weakness". And I would just turn it around and say, yes, but one's greatest weakness is also the source of their greatest strength. So when my fiancee says that one needs to play the field, understand we are coming from two opposite poles. I have had three serious relationships in my life including this one, and have dated all of a half dozen women in my nearly 55 years. My decision process has been pretty binary -- either, "no way" or completely captivated pretty much out of the chute. She on the other hand has taken it to the other extreme; by her own confession she has long since lost count of the men she has been with. I tend to stop just shy of putting a woman on a pedestal, placing great value on the relationship; she has tended to view her men as fungible commodities. I suppose the balance is somewhere in the middle, but we are what we are. If you and I are "all or nuthin'" types, maybe we just have to go with that.

 

I can tell you that I blew off three or four potential serious relationships between the ages of 16 and 22, two of whom couldn't have been more obviously interested in me if they had held up a neon sign, and I ignored them out of a combination of fear / lack of confidence / embarrassment (my mother's technique for keeping me from serious relationships was to creatively and mercilessly tease me about the slightest interest I might betray in girls) and religious ideation about me "not being ready" or it "not being the right time". If I had understood, as you do, that relationships aren't binary (either chaste arm's length casual friendships or a rush to wedding bells to avoid the "sin" of fornication) I would have entered into those relationships and let them go where they would take us (anywhere along that spectrum) and I probably would have some really nice memories to look back on. My guess is that I would have followed the pattern of "in for a penny, in for a pound", would have had an early relationship that ended for some reason and possibly would have had a hard time with it, but would have survived the experience and comforted myself in the knowledge that I gave it my all. As it is, I can't help but feel I missed out on something back then with Rhonda or Donna or Cindy that would contribute something to my life now and might have helped form it better. But then again, maybe they would have been a complete waste of time. Who knows? Life has way too many moving parts to predict.

 

I did break up with the guy I have been writing about, and went on a date the very next week after I broke up with him, to try out something not so serious. But after one "date" or whatever you want to call it, the guy got really into me, and was talking about how he really wanted to date me and how much he liked me, even though I said I wasn't looking for a relationship, and it kind of freaked me out. So, I haven't seen him since then, or gone on another date. Plus, I'm still trying to figure out what I want with this current guy. I would like to casually date, for the experience of it, and to figure out more of what I want (I think I have a pretty good idea overall, but I'm not certain about everything, and I dont want to doubt when I am with someone if they are right for me or not).

This is one of those deals where maybe you have to figure it out for yourself for it to have any reality for you, but my gut reaction is that you're over-thinking. There is no way you will ever know with 100% certainty what is best for you or whether someone is fully right for you. Indeed, the odds are poor that you'll ever find anyone who is 110% ideal. If nothing else, you'll find someone who seems perfect and it may take two years of living together for you to see him under the right kind of stress or ennui and see that he has this or that aspect to his personality that you will struggle with. I doubt there is anyone on earth that won't happen with. There is just no way you are going to fully evaluate all that up front. I also find that even at my age I'm still finding out things about MYSELF that I didn't really know -- and/or, I'm evolving and changing so that things that used to be true, no longer are in the same balance. The truth about relationships is that both people change (hopefully change = growth) and the trick is to grow together, to be committed to work on the relationship, and be committed to pushing through the parts of it that are hard as well as the parts that are fun. What you are looking for is not One True Love, but just A True Enough Love.

 

It's possible that people like you and I may not get as much from so-called "casual dating" as we think we would. Casual is not really part of our relational vocabulary. I don't know how to be intimate beyond a certain point -- probably a point most people would not think was THAT earth-shattering, like having a deep, mutually self-revealing conversation -- and not care enough about that person to the point where there's nothing I wouldn't do for them. Your mileage may vary, etc.

 

I would like to be able to date him, and not take it too seriously by thinking that it means we must be considering marriage. But still enjoying each other fully, and being completely open to each other. I'm just not sure how.

... and there you go -- what was I just sayin'? ;-)

 

My mindset about serious relationships have been forming for years, and I don't know how to change them to make them okay with casual dating, or to even understand how to do it. In my mind its serious or its not. And like I have said a hundred times, I'm not ready for anything serious. So... how do you date someone so wonderful and not let it get serious?

Aye, there's the rub. Maybe you don't. What constitutes "ready"? In my mind as a dude at the time, "ready" was, "able to provide for a wife". But this is the 21st century and you're not a religious nutjob like I was. If I had it to do over again knowing what I know now, "ready" would just consist of "ready to open up / trust the right person without any expectations regarding ultimate outcomes". That last phrase is possibly key. Maybe "not ready" to you means "I don't want to be hurt or disappointed if it doesn't work out". But relationships can end amicably, albeit wistfully so. It really can be, "don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened". At your age you should not be aiming for a life partner -- though that may end up happening. You should be aiming to live in the moment. If you can't help but be serious, find someone like this guy who you can be serious with in the moment, who won't pressure you to following him to graduate school or for his job, who is willing to let you go if your paths diverge at some point. In the meantime if there is sex and/or cohabitation, does that have to be some kind of Rubicon that once you cross it, it has to go on forever? If that's true for you, then you literally DO have to have casual / shallow relationships until you're in a position to be joined at the hip with another human being for life.

Or do you put aside the wonderful one, to meet other people, to be certain that his wonderful is the kind of wonderful you need? That just seems silly, But what if I do need that? I don't know how to justify that.

But..... he is so insanely wonderful and understanding that if I told him I needed to do that, he would support me. He would be sad and hurt, but he would encourage me to do what I felt I needed to do.

I'm afraid no one will ever be that good to me again. I know I'm lucky. I know he is incredible. I just want to be fair to us both. If I'm not ready, I can't force it. And he deserves someone who loves him with everything they have, and doesn't hold back like I do. But maybe I will get there? Maybe I will find that certainty? I just dont know.

"I have no talent for certainty."

I think your heart already knows what to do. The only concern I have in what I'm quoting just above is that "you're afraid no one will ever be that good to me again". At your age and with your personal strengths I think you can put that concern aside, even while recognizing the underlying truth, which is that guys like this do not grow on trees. I think he is a gift from the universe that you should enjoy while you can, whether that's forever or not. One thing I know though, you will never have absolute certainty and if you wait for it you will let him go for the wrong reasons.

[DesertBob]

Did I also mention this is the first non christian guy I have ever had feelings for? And my deconversion was only a few months ago? Those things play into it as well. He is not the "perfect christian man" I had imagined I would marry since I was 16. He is better in so many ways. But its still a mental adjustment. I was even having panic attacks a couple months ago, about him and about leaving christianity. Thankfully those are over and I have worked through a lot of that. I am just still unsure about how to handle things with him.

Yeah I can imagine that would have been a struggle for me. In all honesty my current relationship is the first with someone with no background in religion to speak of, and even at my age, it was a bit of an adjustment, because I realized I was unconsciously assuming that someone raised the way I was would automatically tend to be morally superior somehow. I had to re-evaluate some of the basis of my trust mechanisms because there was no set of mutual assumptions to start from. What I have found however is that this woman has the whole "virtuous woman" thing nailed and she's never ever READ Proverbs 31. In other words she fulfills what Christian women aspire to just based on her own intuition and self-learning, it's really what she is, not what she hopes to be someday. It was quite a trip to realize that, it made me laugh out loud. Virtue without the pretense. Who knew??

 

I like what the other poster suggested, just continue to talk openly with this guy about these very things, he seems willing to be patient and respect you and give you time to rearrange your mental furniture within reason. He can probably help you along better than anyone. He's probably also capable of being fair to himself. I'm in no way suggesting that you need to decide -- TODAY! -- whether to jump in bed or move in together or anything like that. I'm only suggesting that you decide day by day to move the relationship forward in a mutually comfortable way and at a mutually comfortable speed and do so without fear or undue second-guessing of yourself. If you develop the niggling feeling that you're missing out on something or being held back or distracted from more important things, then back off; otherwise move forward, slowly if you need to, but with an open attitude of exploration and trust.

[SWIM]

To read this type of concern, as a lifelong Atheist, it occurs to me that I probably see xtianity, perhaps like you would see the "Greek gods". Not intended to be demeaning or insulting, I honestly think if you could see through my eyes, that's what would have a high probability to happen. (imo)

 

So, if you for a moment, pretended, visulaized like meditation, and tried to imagine never believing, just like the Lenon song. I think it would be s big psychological relief to find that these problems are ultra trival when you know in your heart, by simple common sense, that it should be taken personally, no more serious than I Dr. Suess book. People are not stupid for being in religions, they are more like victims. I did not have to suffer through early childhood brainwashing. That's why I am an Atheist, not because of any great feat of will, I was simply lucky enough to be spared the brainwashing, so... I am not implying I am better than anyone, just lucky is all.

 

But the point of my response is, but honestly envisioning how your old religion looks to a total outsider, you might really be relieved to know its not a big deal, nor is it worth your mental energy expelled on it creating stress in your life.

 

Just my 2 cents.. I may be wrong, been known to happen... (though rarely) hehe

[2Honest]

I think playing the field and casual dating can be overrated. I only had a couple of casual dates and 2 relationships before marriage and have never looked back on that with regret. I've never felt as though I missed out on anything. Jblueep had the same experience and I know he feels the same way. We were able to grow and learn and experience things together and I consider that a gift.

 

I think DesertBob is right that some people just aren't "built" for casual relationships. I don't know if you are one of those people, but I think you might be putting yourself through a lot more stress than you need to. I think sometimes we get a plan or picture in our head of what we need and what will be the most fulfilling, but then life surprises us. This guy you're with sounds like a very nice surprise.