ConureDelSol Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 To start off, this isn't a bashing thread or anything like that. I just have difficulty grasping the concept of no god. What is it that ultimately convinced you that there is no god at all? Why don't you believe in an non-intervening god? Is it all based around "bad stuff happens and no one does anything, so God doesn't exist" or is there a more intellectual reason? To be honest, the only reason I believe in a god at all is for one of the same reasons that Xtians believe in their God: I use god to explain things I don't understand. If I could explain the whole universe (or other universes), I would likely end up as an Atheist, but I can't right now. Claiming that there is no god whatsoever is a very bold statement, but it is far from being a silly idea. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning of you all so that I can better relate to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 28, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2011 What is it that ultimately convinced you that there is no god at all? To be an atheist, that is to not believe in gods, simply means that there is not enough evidence for belief. I doubt any atheists would claim to have evidence that there is no god(s) any more than they would claim to have evidence that fairies or ogres absolutely do not exist. The one making the extraordinary claim for the existence of magical or supernatural beings must back that up with some proof. We're still waiting... I use god to explain things I don't understand. Why? Why not just say you don't know the answer (yet) rather than assuming it's done by magic? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I think it would be helpful if you explained more about your definition of "God" or "god." That way we would know what concept of God about which we are supposed to be explaining our position . (You might also explain how the rejection of god based on the problem of evil and suffering is a non-intellectual reason) Many atheists (I don't know if it's most atheists or now) don't claim "there is no god whatsoever." The claim is there has not been sufficient evidence presented to support a belief in a god. For many atheists, the use of god as an explanatory placeholder amounts to an argument from ignorance, unless the term God is being used in a literary/poetic/ metaphorical sense or with implied double quotes , e.g. "God" must be trying to tell me something. . . Of course many times it is assumed that the god being discussed is of the omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent variety. Your conception of a god may not involve those properties. Which makes expanding on the kind of god you believe exists crucial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I use god to explain things I don't understand. If I could explain the whole universe (or other universes), I would likely end up as an Atheist, but I can't right now. That god gets smaller and smaller as each year passes and we learn more about the universe. The trend is 100% against him as not one single discovery suggests he exists while every single discovery gives us a better insight into the natural universe in which we live. I don't know god doesn't exist, I just have no reason to believe he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I think it would be helpful if you explained more about your definition of "God" or "god." That way we would know what concept of God about which we are supposed to be explaining our position . (You might also explain how the rejection of god based on the problem of evil and suffering is a non-intellectual reason) Many atheists (I don't know if it's most atheists or now) don't claim "there is no god whatsoever." The claim is there has not been sufficient evidence presented to support a belief in a god. For many atheists, the use of god as an explanatory placeholder amounts to an argument from ignorance, unless the term God is being used in a literary/poetic/ metaphorical sense or with implied double quotes , e.g. "God" must be trying to tell me something. . . Of course many times it is assumed that the god being discussed is of the omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent variety. Your conception of a god may not involve those properties. Which makes expanding on the kind of god you believe exists crucial. I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. Unless I can find another cause that dismisses a god, I can't find a way to understand how everything is without god. I don't believe this god intervenes in anything. He is just there and doesn't really do anything besides watch the universe do its thing. I think it's evident to everyone at this point that my concept of atheism is a little skewed by everything I learned as a Christian. If I present something that's incorrect, well, I'd rather know the correct way to see things. Sorry for any ignorance I may have exhibited here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? It would be difficult to understand. However, that's pretty much how BibleGod is personified. Is there a theory or something that backs up a self-causing universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 To start off, this isn't a bashing thread or anything like that. I just have difficulty grasping the concept of no god. What is it that ultimately convinced you that there is no god at all? Why don't you believe in an non-intervening god? Is it all based around "bad stuff happens and no one does anything, so God doesn't exist" or is there a more intellectual reason? To be honest, the only reason I believe in a god at all is for one of the same reasons that Xtians believe in their God: I use god to explain things I don't understand. If I could explain the whole universe (or other universes), I would likely end up as an Atheist, but I can't right now. Claiming that there is no god whatsoever is a very bold statement, but it is far from being a silly idea. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning of you all so that I can better relate to you. you see the reason i belive in no god is that our perceptions do not define the reality around us. what we inturpret does not define physical law and what is defined and not defined in the universe. there is allways the posibility of a god since not all things are proven witch means all things are posible but it is just as easily posible there is no god. just becuase We do not understand something does not mean that we should just expect our assumptions to define them, witch means filling the whole with a god. this is why the conceptof "god" exist at all becuase humans have a inate need to fill the unknown with our assumptions in order to domesticate the universe. i am Bashing you by no means in fact i thought about being a deist my self and i find it a cool philosophy but in my opinion it is just as bold a statment to say there is a god as the statment "there is no god". i like the profile picture by the way Raptor Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? It would be difficult to understand. However, that's pretty much how BibleGod is personified. Is there a theory or something that backs up a self-causing universe? I rub shoulders with a few scientists and a few of them have suggested such a thing. At this point I guess it's speculative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? It would be difficult to understand. However, that's pretty much how BibleGod is personified. Is there a theory or something that backs up a self-causing universe? I rub shoulders with a few scientists and a few of them have suggested such a thing. At this point I guess it's speculative. It honestly sounds a little like pantheism. Then again, you can be an atheist and believe in pantheism since they believe that God and the universe are one and the same right? Or am I incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It honestly sounds a little like pantheism. Then again, you can be an atheist and believe in pantheism since they believe that God and the universe are one and the same right? Or am I incorrect? Yes, I suppose a self-causing universe would sound like pantheism to those who feel compelled to worship the creator of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I don't feel compelled to worship. I feel it is a waste of time to worship something that doesn't effect anything. I do subscribe to the possibility that the universe itself can be mistaken for a god since they may have similar properties. Another question: Do atheists believe in anything supernatural? Does it just depend on the atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? It would be difficult to understand. However, that's pretty much how BibleGod is personified. Is there a theory or something that backs up a self-causing universe? I could be wrong, but my understanding of the Casimir effect is that particles come into existence from empty space. Besides, which thing is more difficult to understand? 1) a self-caused universe, or 2) a supernatural being with an infinite brain capacity living outside our universe in an eternal or non-temporal universe that is also infinite in space. In actuality I don't have a problem with people believing in a god of any kind, but I just don't see the reason to jump to a conclusion about a god just because we don't know. I find it easier today to say, I don't know, and there's nothing to prove a god, so it's more likely that there is no god, and therefore it's easier to not believe in a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I don't feel compelled to worship. I feel it is a waste of time to worship something that doesn't effect anything. I do subscribe to the possibility that the universe itself can be mistaken for a god since they may have similar properties. Makes sense to me. If I was going to worship I'd worship something powerful. Another question: Do atheists believe in anything supernatural? Does it just depend on the atheist? I don't know that I'd describe myself as an atheist. I don't really think about it or care. But I think nature is sufficient. The idea of the supernatural seems to me to be, um, well, superfluous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? It would be difficult to understand. However, that's pretty much how BibleGod is personified. Is there a theory or something that backs up a self-causing universe? I rub shoulders with a few scientists and a few of them have suggested such a thing. At this point I guess it's speculative. It honestly sounds a little like pantheism. Then again, you can be an atheist and believe in pantheism since they believe that God and the universe are one and the same right? Or am I incorrect? Yes and no. Pantheism includes the believe that the Universe is conscious and sentient, but a self-causing universe doesn't have to be. A spring is causing a ball to fly. Does that make the spring an intelligent being? An earthquake caused our grandfather clock to start again and ring late at night. Was the earthquake planning it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 28, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2011 Do atheists believe in anything supernatural? Does it just depend on the atheist? A-theist means only that one lacks a belief in god(s). Since the lack of belief in that concept is due to the paucity of evidence, the same holds true for other supernatural notions. Atheists are generally skeptical of wild claims and base beliefs on evidence. I imagine there are some who do not believe in gods but still cling to some other type of superstitious beliefs even though they lack evidence. I don't know of any but I can see the possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? It would be difficult to understand. However, that's pretty much how BibleGod is personified. Is there a theory or something that backs up a self-causing universe? I could be wrong, but my understanding of the Casimir effect is that particles come into existence from empty space. Besides, which thing is more difficult to understand? 1) a self-caused universe, or 2) a supernatural being with an infinite brain capacity living outside our universe in an eternal or non-temporal universe that is also infinite in space. In actuality I don't have a problem with people believing in a god of any kind, but I just don't see the reason to jump to a conclusion about a god just because we don't know. I find it easier today to say, I don't know, and there's nothing to prove a god, so it's more likely that there is no god, and therefore it's easier to not believe in a god. I will have to look into the Casimir effect. You do make good sense though. I suppose that the closest thing I can relate to when explaining how I view a god is that he is the cause and the universe is the effect. What if the universe is self-caused and self-causing? It would be difficult to understand. However, that's pretty much how BibleGod is personified. Is there a theory or something that backs up a self-causing universe? I rub shoulders with a few scientists and a few of them have suggested such a thing. At this point I guess it's speculative. It honestly sounds a little like pantheism. Then again, you can be an atheist and believe in pantheism since they believe that God and the universe are one and the same right? Or am I incorrect? Yes and no. Pantheism includes the believe that the Universe is conscious and sentient, but a self-causing universe doesn't have to be. A spring is causing a ball to fly. Does that make the spring an intelligent being? An earthquake caused our grandfather clock to start again and ring late at night. Was the earthquake planning it? Thanks for clearing that up for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Thanks for clearing that up for me! With that being said, I'm a form of a panentheist. I believe all things that exist, are in a sense "God". And "all things" include things that exist beyond our universe (a multiverse perhaps?). I don't believe that all these things are sentient, but I do believe that there are many examples of sentience emerged all over the place. Some being smarter than us, some less, but overall, no one is the specific "creator" of us or our world. it's even possible that each and every black hole in the universe contains a unique and different universe than ours. Who created the black holes? If CERN creates a black hole, and there's a universe within it... would we call the scientists or humanity the "Creators" of whatever happens in there? Sure. We could. But doesn't it really matter if a team of scientists created a black hole with a universe or if a black hole was created in a supernova? I know I'm not making much sense. But it was worth a try... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I do not, I don't think the concept of 'the supernatural' makes any sense. Everything -must- ultimately be natural, if you can talk about it. 'The supernatural' is shorthand for the unexplainable or the unknown. Take ghosts as an example. If there were really ghosts of people haunting buildings and graves and whatnot, then they would exist and therefore be of the natural world. They're not visible to our eyes -- so what? Still part of the universe, therefore still natural. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Thanks for clearing that up for me! But, but, but... He just took advantage of an opening that I provided. And he gets all the glory. Life sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I do not, I don't think the concept of 'the supernatural' makes any sense. Everything -must- ultimately be natural, if you can talk about it. 'The supernatural' is shorthand for the unexplainable or the unknown. Take ghosts as an example. If there were really ghosts of people haunting buildings and graves and whatnot, then they would exist and therefore be of the natural world. They're not visible to our eyes -- so what? Still part of the universe, therefore still natural. I agree with this almost entirely Pockets. I just have a small technical quible. I think that when we say, "Everything is X" we are uttering a vacuous statement. I think natural systems are contrasted with formal systems which are free creations of the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Thanks for clearing that up for me! But, but, but... He just took advantage of an opening that I provided. And he gets all the glory. Life sucks. Too slow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeasabird Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 To be honest, the only reason I believe in a god at all is for one of the same reasons that Xtians believe in their God: I use god to explain things I don't understand. My television is god. I will now go home and worship my television. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I think that you said it all when you said you prefer to personify what you can't explain or account for in the form of a superior being. The difference between you and me is, I'm willing to sit with uncertainty. I don't need to explain everything, anymore than I feel a compulsion to talk to fill silences. If you think about it, an attempt to remove all uncertainty is a vote for the idea that ignorance or uncertainty are intolerable and that we need someone with more intellectual and perceptual equipment and more power to fill that vacuum. Why can't there be unknowns? Why can't there be things that are unknowable? Imagine that you're an ant. You can't perceive beyond your immediate environment, a few inches at most. You have no idea what an internal combustion engine is. You can't understand why huge objects occasionally fall from the sky and crush your friends. You have no concept of "planet" or "neighborhood" or "weather". But to be an ant, do you need any of those things? Nah. You just need the ability to pick up bits of food and carry them to your nest. Similarly, you have your own "need to know" basis. You know enough to survive and possibly even thrive in your environment, as a person. In the same way that a giant foot in an ant environment does not belong to an angry god and the discovery of an enormous loaf of unprotected fresh bread does not represent the blessing of some superior being -- it's likely that the stuff you can't explain doesn't come from deity either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I do not, I don't think the concept of 'the supernatural' makes any sense. Everything -must- ultimately be natural, if you can talk about it. 'The supernatural' is shorthand for the unexplainable or the unknown. Take ghosts as an example. If there were really ghosts of people haunting buildings and graves and whatnot, then they would exist and therefore be of the natural world. They're not visible to our eyes -- so what? Still part of the universe, therefore still natural. I agree with this almost entirely Pockets. I just have a small technical quible. I think that when we say, "Everything is X" we are uttering a vacuous statement. I think natural systems are contrasted with formal systems which are free creations of the mind. I don't really get why it's vacuous. All I meant was that if it exists, it's part of existence. A pointless distinction, sure, unless people are trying to distinguish between the "natural" and the "supernatural." It's all subsumed under the natural in my book. You know, like, even if magic does exist, it all boils down to the midichlorians. xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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