Jump to content

Jehovah And Jesus - The God Of The Whole Universe?


Margee
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Moderator

Here is a fact from science and also the argument from a Christian website. I would like to know what else Christians might say about this earth, with our one particular Christian god that rules everything. What responses have you heard Christians say about gods on the other possible 'living' planets?

 

Is Jehovah and Jesus the god of the whole universe? Is Jesus the savior of all the unknown, undiscovered planets? After all, 'he' created it all, didn't 'he'?

 

Fact from science: There are at least 100 billion stars with planets in our Galaxy. The longer astronomers observe individual stars and the better our technology becomes for making these observations, the more planets are found.

Alan Boss argues that based on what we already know about planetary systems, in the coming years we will find abundant Earths, including many that are indisputably alive. Life is not only possible elsewhere in the universe, Boss argues—it is common.

 

But, according to a Christian website, this is what they say - this is their argument:

 

''According to the Bible, Earth is not the result of billions of years of stellar evolution during which many other planets were created. Earth was created before any other planet or star existed. Earth came into existence on the first day of Creation (Genesis 1:1). God withheld the creation of the Sun, Moon and stars until the fourth day (Genesis 1:14-19). Earth is unique and holds center stage in God's Creation.''

 

''Furthermore, the Bible clearly indicates that the fate of the universe (every other planet and star) is forever linked to God's timetable for mankind and the Earth. One day, Christ will return to Earth and complete the final act of man's redemption (2 Peter 3:9-10). He will destroy this present universe and create a new heavens and Earth (2 Peter 3:7,10; Revelations 21:1). All the stars and planets will be destroyed, along with the Earth.''Wendyshrug.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jehova isn't even the God of the whole Earth (just ask Muslims, Hindus and others), so how could he be the God of the whole Universe?

 

BTW, it would be funny to see how Christians would react if aliens from other planets came to the Earth. I actually had a Christian book about UFOs. What we were taught was that many of those UFO sightings are real, but they aren't aliens but demons and/or angels. Mainly demons. So I don't think it would convince Christians of anything if aliens with a higher intelligence came and told us Jesus was a myth. That would only further confirm their belief that these are demons who try to deceive the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At root, I think we're looking at the discord that can occur when different epistemolgies are compared. The issue here is... what do we know? And how do we know it? If what qualifies as knowledge is preset as being encapsulated in the text of ancient manuscripts then we will clearly have a clash with most widely accepted scientific epistemologies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The creation story in Genesis is obviously earth centric. Just think about some basic facts that even young children understand today that people in bible times had no concept about. For example, they didn't understand that our sun is a star and that those tiny lights that twinkled in the sky at night are all suns, many of which are vastly larger than our sun. With that kind of limited view of the universe, it is clear why their myths saw everything from their perspective and not from a larger perspective. So, in their minds, their god was the god of the universe and the universe consisted of earth at the center and those night lights being something god created as a sign of his presence with the constellations, and particularly the zodiac, attesting to his existence.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Christians believe that there is only one god, (in three persons, but that's a whole other issue) so I've never heard a Christian say anything about other possible gods of life on other planets except to claim that they do not exist.

 

Bible "cosmology" reads exactly as you would expect it to. The writers of the bible had no understanding of the cosmos except for what they could physically see. They had no technology or instruments to observe what they could not see with the naked eye. You would think that if the bible was divinely inspired, this all-knowing being (who would know of the technology of modern times) would reveal some written bit of relevant truth about the universe so that future generations would not regard it as bronze-age myth.

 

The Kepler mission has found more than 1200 planet candidates and 26 confirmed planets just within our area of the Milky Way.

 

It will only be a matter of time, I think, before we find that the earth is not unique, and is not the only planet that harbors life. Until we do find it, Christians will keep running around in circles screaming "the bible is true because it says it's true!". Ugh.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It will only be a matter of time, I think, before we find that the earth is not unique, and is not the only planet that harbors life. Until we do find it, Christians will keep running around in circles screaming "the bible is true because it says it's true!". Ugh.

 

Ummm...sorry Beth, but I reckon that even after we find 1,200 "Earths" out there, it just won't make any difference.

These planets could be shown to be teeming with multicellular or even highly intelligent life - and it still wouldn't matter.

To some sad individuals, anything that the Bible says is the truth, no matter how bizarre, unlikely or contrary to observations.

 

For example...

 

http://www.fixedearth.com/

 

http://www.geocentricity.com/

 

http://www.galileowa...alileowaswrong/

 

Go figure! Wendytwitch.gif

 

BAA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It will only be a matter of time, I think, before we find that the earth is not unique, and is not the only planet that harbors life. Until we do find it, Christians will keep running around in circles screaming "the bible is true because it says it's true!". Ugh.

 

Ummm...sorry Beth, but I reckon that even after we find 1,200 "Earths" out there, it just won't make any difference.

These planets could be shown to be teeming with multicellular or even highly intelligent life - and it still wouldn't matter.

To some sad individuals, anything that the Bible says is the truth, no matter how bizarre, unlikely or contrary to observations.

 

For example...

 

http://www.fixedearth.com/

 

http://www.geocentricity.com/

 

http://www.galileowa...alileowaswrong/

 

Go figure! Wendytwitch.gif

 

BAA.

 

Yeah, guess I should change my sentence above to - Even when we find it, Christians will keep running around in circles screaming "the bible is true because it says it's true!".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What the heck? This has not been the RCC's stance for hundreds of years. This man is not a church official; he was even asked to take "Catholic" out of his organization's name.

 

Back to the original post: I would say "yes, yes, and technically yes". God (not Jehovah, that name is more made up than most names) would be the god of all, including extra terrestrial life. Assuming that fighting didn't break out, I would be excited to meet intelligent alien life to see how their cultures, philosophies, and religions developed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What the heck? This has not been the RCC's stance for hundreds of years. This man is not a church official; he was even asked to take "Catholic" out of his organization's name.

 

Back to the original post: I would say "yes, yes, and technically yes". God (not Jehovah, that name is more made up than most names) would be the god of all, including extra terrestrial life. Assuming that fighting didn't break out, I would be excited to meet intelligent alien life to see how their cultures, philosophies, and religions developed.

 

Yes Kitty,

 

I realize that he's not representing the views of Rome.

I was simply citing him as an example of the lengths some folks will go to when it comes to 'making' the Bible true, in the face of a contradicting reality.

 

Sadly, the Internet is replete with sites created by people who cannot accept reality and who feel compelled to suck others into their delusion as a way of justifying and reinforcing their bizarre beliefs. Here's another one...

 

http://www.commonsensescience.org/

The Christians here cannot accept the findings of Quantum theory, nor Einstein's General or Special Relativity.

Therefore one of them (Bergman) has proposed his own model of the structure of the atom, claiming that it is superior to anything 'mainstream' science uses. Naturally enough, they also believe there's a worldwide conspiracy which promotes 'false' science and suppresses their 'truth' by calling it pseudo-science. Thus, their suspicions are confirmed and therefore they must be right!

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On the subject of alien life Kitty, what's your view on this person?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a patient one. People think that it will hold some sort of judgement, on its favorite planet (Earth of course), very soon but nothing could be further from the truth. It is a loving and patient god. More patient than loving. It has always been much of either but it has really been working on these traits lately especially the patience thing.

 

So when everyone though the world was ending it didn't because it needed word of the death of its "son" to spread. It was going to only wait until word spread across Judea but then it decided to wait a bit more until it spread across "the world" meaning the Roman Empire. But when that was done it waited until it spread across a few more places especially into the "New World." It really wanted those Indians to know the story. The time drew near but then it figured why not wait until it gets to a few more places? So here. Then there. Why not everywhere?

 

Now there are all these "new" planets. New to us. New from our point of view. They'll want to hear the story too. There's no use in having a judgment and not inviting everyone. Why not wait? Maybe just the close planets though. No point in dragging this out, right? But then the far away planets will be closer so it would be unfair not to wait until they get hit up too. So maybe because of the loving patience we can just wait until all these new planets get the message and then judgment will come? That's for the best.

 

And after everyone and everything is judged those who are worthy will move to the best place ever (Earth) and the rest will get tossed away. It's the perfect plan.

 

mwc

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Assuming that fighting didn't break out, I would be excited to meet intelligent alien life to see how their cultures, philosophies, and religions developed.

 

That is easy. They are all Buddhists...or shuggoths.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What the heck? This has not been the RCC's stance for hundreds of years. This man is not a church official; he was even asked to take "Catholic" out of his organization's name.

 

Back to the original post: I would say "yes, yes, and technically yes". God (not Jehovah, that name is more made up than most names) would be the god of all, including extra terrestrial life. Assuming that fighting didn't break out, I would be excited to meet intelligent alien life to see how their cultures, philosophies, and religions developed.

 

Yes Kitty,

 

I realize that he's not representing the views of Rome.

I was simply citing him as an example of the lengths some folks will go to when it comes to 'making' the Bible true, in the face of a contradicting reality.

 

Sadly, the Internet is replete with sites created by people who cannot accept reality and who feel compelled to suck others into their delusion as a way of justifying and reinforcing their bizarre beliefs. Here's another one...

 

http://www.commonsensescience.org/

The Christians here cannot accept the findings of Quantum theory, nor Einstein's General or Special Relativity.

Therefore one of them (Bergman) has proposed his own model of the structure of the atom, claiming that it is superior to anything 'mainstream' science uses. Naturally enough, they also believe there's a worldwide conspiracy which promotes 'false' science and suppresses their 'truth' by calling it pseudo-science. Thus, their suspicions are confirmed and therefore they must be right!

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On the subject of alien life Kitty, what's your view on this person?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Greetings BAA,

 

First off, my apologies. The "what the heck" was intended as a swipe at the website and Dr. Sungenis, not at you. The other part was for anyone reading the thread; the RCC has enough that's wrong with it without a misunderstanding like that.

And have you seen this guy's Q&A? It's 175 pages long and filled with smug BS. I'm going to look and see if anyone has a thread about terrible science, because I feel compelled to Physics this guy a new one.

 

And to this new site, (thanks for all the links, by the way) stop misrepresenting information, stop denying how amazing and plausible indirect observation techniques are, and don't leave the neutrino off of your lame list of elementary particles! For their next trick, I hope they try to disprove confirmation bias. Then we could say that they did so via confirmation bias, and they would say they couldn't cause they proved that it doesn't exist, and then everyone can have a good laugh....

...Sorry, I'm hung-over, and I get defensive about my Physics. You are right, of course. The mental gymnastics doesn't hesitate to bend the rules of math and laws of physics to make everything fit into a half-assed creation myth.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Giordano Bruno seems like an interesting thinker. I especially like that he denied the hierarchical universe idea. It's a shame that he was burned at the stake, but isn't that usually the case?

I assume you were referring to the idea of CoAdamism, though, with the multiple Adam/Eves in multiple Edens on an infinite number of planets. If someone is going to believe in both the possibility of extraterrestrial intelligent life (which I do) and Fall/Redemption theology (which I don't), then I think that Giordano's idea is a fine way to go. One point I would take issue with is that universe seems to not be infinite, so, lucky for Jesus, the number of crucifixions could be high but not infinite.

 

Peace,

CatholiKitty

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What the heck? This has not been the RCC's stance for hundreds of years. This man is not a church official; he was even asked to take "Catholic" out of his organization's name.

 

Back to the original post: I would say "yes, yes, and technically yes". God (not Jehovah, that name is more made up than most names) would be the god of all, including extra terrestrial life. Assuming that fighting didn't break out, I would be excited to meet intelligent alien life to see how their cultures, philosophies, and religions developed.

 

(snip)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On the subject of alien life Kitty, what's your view on this person?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Greetings BAA,

 

Hello Kitty.

 

Yes, I understood who you were, "Heck-ing" at. smile.png Not a problem.

 

First off, my apologies. The "what the heck" was intended as a swipe at the website and Dr. Sungenis, not at you. The other part was for anyone reading the thread; the RCC has enough that's wrong with it without a misunderstanding like that.

And have you seen this guy's Q&A? It's 175 pages long and filled with smug BS. I'm going to look and see if anyone has a thread about terrible science, because I feel compelled to Physics this guy a new one.

 

And to this new site, (thanks for all the links, by the way) stop misrepresenting information, stop denying how amazing and plausible indirect observation techniques are, and don't leave the neutrino off of your lame list of elementary particles! For their next trick, I hope they try to disprove confirmation bias. Then we could say that they did so via confirmation bias, and they would say they couldn't cause they proved that it doesn't exist, and then everyone can have a good laugh....

...Sorry, I'm hung-over, and I get defensive about my Physics. You are right, of course. The mental gymnastics doesn't hesitate to bend the rules of math and laws of physics to make everything fit into a half-assed creation myth.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Giordano Bruno seems like an interesting thinker. I especially like that he denied the hierarchical universe idea. It's a shame that he was burned at the stake, but isn't that usually the case?

 

Sadly, yes. sad.png

 

I assume you were referring to the idea of CoAdamism, though, with the multiple Adam/Eves in multiple Edens on an infinite number of planets.

 

In a manner of speaking, yes.

If God has put the responsibility for saving the souls of intelligent aliens on us (rather than on Himself, as you suggest above), the maximum speed limit of our evangelizing starships (even travelling at 99% of c) still condemns 99% them to eternal hellfire.

 

If someone is going to believe in both the possibility of extraterrestrial intelligent life (which I do) and Fall/Redemption theology (which I don't), then I think that Giordano's idea is a fine way to go. One point I would take issue with is that universe seems to not be infinite, so, lucky for Jesus, the number of crucifixions could be high but not infinite.

 

Peace,

CatholiKitty

 

Ah, now here's where you've lost me, Kitty.

 

Why would Jesus have to be crucified at all, if not to redeem us from the consequences of the Fall?

 

Perhaps I'm not seeing your take on this and need a hand here?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now there are all these "new" planets. New to us. New from our point of view. They'll want to hear the story too. There's no use in having a judgment and not inviting everyone. Why not wait? Maybe just the close planets though. No point in dragging this out, right? But then the far away planets will be closer so it would be unfair not to wait until they get hit up too. So maybe because of the loving patience we can just wait until all these new planets get the message and then judgment will come?

 

Matthew 28:19 Modern Interstellar Version (copyright 5011 CE)

Go therefore, and teach all worlds, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What the heck? This has not been the RCC's stance for hundreds of years. This man is not a church official; he was even asked to take "Catholic" out of his organization's name.

 

Back to the original post: I would say "yes, yes, and technically yes". God (not Jehovah, that name is more made up than most names) would be the god of all, including extra terrestrial life. Assuming that fighting didn't break out, I would be excited to meet intelligent alien life to see how their cultures, philosophies, and religions developed.

 

(snip)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On the subject of alien life Kitty, what's your view on this person?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Greetings BAA,

 

Hello Kitty.

 

Yes, I understood who you were, "Heck-ing" at. smile.png Not a problem.

 

First off, my apologies. The "what the heck" was intended as a swipe at the website and Dr. Sungenis, not at you. The other part was for anyone reading the thread; the RCC has enough that's wrong with it without a misunderstanding like that.

And have you seen this guy's Q&A? It's 175 pages long and filled with smug BS. I'm going to look and see if anyone has a thread about terrible science, because I feel compelled to Physics this guy a new one.

 

And to this new site, (thanks for all the links, by the way) stop misrepresenting information, stop denying how amazing and plausible indirect observation techniques are, and don't leave the neutrino off of your lame list of elementary particles! For their next trick, I hope they try to disprove confirmation bias. Then we could say that they did so via confirmation bias, and they would say they couldn't cause they proved that it doesn't exist, and then everyone can have a good laugh....

...Sorry, I'm hung-over, and I get defensive about my Physics. You are right, of course. The mental gymnastics doesn't hesitate to bend the rules of math and laws of physics to make everything fit into a half-assed creation myth.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Giordano Bruno seems like an interesting thinker. I especially like that he denied the hierarchical universe idea. It's a shame that he was burned at the stake, but isn't that usually the case?

 

Sadly, yes. sad.png

 

I assume you were referring to the idea of CoAdamism, though, with the multiple Adam/Eves in multiple Edens on an infinite number of planets.

 

In a manner of speaking, yes.

If God has put the responsibility for saving the souls of intelligent aliens on us (rather than on Himself, as you suggest above), the maximum speed limit of our evangelizing starships (even travelling at 99% of c) still condemns 99% them to eternal hellfire.

 

If someone is going to believe in both the possibility of extraterrestrial intelligent life (which I do) and Fall/Redemption theology (which I don't), then I think that Giordano's idea is a fine way to go. One point I would take issue with is that universe seems to not be infinite, so, lucky for Jesus, the number of crucifixions could be high but not infinite.

 

Peace,

CatholiKitty

 

Ah, now here's where you've lost me, Kitty.

 

Why would Jesus have to be crucified at all, if not to redeem us from the consequences of the Fall?

 

Perhaps I'm not seeing your take on this and need a hand here?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

My answer is that he didn't have to be crucified at all. He came because it was the right time and place to deliver his message to help advance moral thought. The cross thing is just how events played out, and Jesus's death was mostly a simple martyr's death. That said, martyrdom can be quite powerful, especially if said martyr rolls the boulder from the entrance to his tomb afterward and gives the Roman Empire the finger.

I realize that with this view, there's no reason why Jesus had to be the son of God rather than just another prophet. This is one of the things currently on my casual-pondering list.

 

I take a slight issue with your math concerning the aliens, but it's a minor point, and we both seem to agree on the absurdity of the situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.... Jesus's death was mostly a simple martyr's death. That said, martyrdom can be quite powerful, especially if said martyr rolls the boulder from the entrance to his tomb afterward and gives the Roman Empire the finger.

I realize that with this view, there's no reason why Jesus had to be the son of God rather than just another prophet. This is one of the things currently on my casual-pondering list.

 

Are you serious? Man this is what I hear you saying....

 

"Look at me. I am capable of believing the absurd. This is my freedom and luxury."

 

It's silly. A limp kind of silly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BAA wrote...

Ah, now here's where you've lost me, Kitty.

Why would Jesus have to be crucified at all, if not to redeem us from the consequences of the Fall?

Perhaps I'm not seeing your take on this and need a hand here?

Thanks,

BAA.

 

CatholiKitty replied...

My answer is that he didn't have to be crucified at all. He came because it was the right time and place to deliver his message to help advance moral thought. The cross thing is just how events played out, and Jesus's death was mostly a simple martyr's death. That said, martyrdom can be quite powerful, especially if said martyr rolls the boulder from the entrance to his tomb afterward and gives the Roman Empire the finger.

I realize that with this view, there's no reason why Jesus had to be the son of God rather than just another prophet. This is one of the things currently on my casual-pondering list.

 

I take a slight issue with your math concerning the aliens, but it's a minor point, and we both seem to agree on the absurdity of the situation.

 

Thank you for your interesting reply, Kitty.

 

BAA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.... Jesus's death was mostly a simple martyr's death. That said, martyrdom can be quite powerful, especially if said martyr rolls the boulder from the entrance to his tomb afterward and gives the Roman Empire the finger.

I realize that with this view, there's no reason why Jesus had to be the son of God rather than just another prophet. This is one of the things currently on my casual-pondering list.

 

Are you serious? Man this is what I hear you saying....

 

"Look at me. I am capable of believing the absurd. This is my freedom and luxury."

 

It's silly. A limp kind of silly.

 

Not what I intended to say, but not something I can disagree with either. The bit about the tomb was meant to be nothing but a silly mental image, actually, but I was serious about the just-a-martyr thing. It's the best solution I've come up with so far that fits my primary belief of no-original-sin Christianity. Heh, I was kind of proud when I came up with the idea, but then I found an almost word-for-word description of it on Wikipedia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, if life is found on other worlds, how would we know that the genetic material did not come from our own earth as the result of meteor strikes? If other planetary material can be found on our world, from Mars, the moon, or where ever, then material from our world will certainly be blasted into space as well and wind up on another planet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.